Printable View
Once again you're very slow to give credit to anything that isn't your political philosophy. I bet if he were Calvin Coolidge you'd be shouting his name constantly in your posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thondalar
This is how we make Hoovervilles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thondalar
Not sure where you get this from, I can't recall ever shouting any President's name other than George Washington...though I probably would Ben Franklin if he was ever president. He's right up there with Anthony Hopkins in my book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warriorbird
Temporarily, sure. Let me ask you...if you were an educated man, and you knew that choice A would make you homeless, and choice B would make you stable but not living above your means...which would you take?Quote:
This is how we make Hoovervilles.
Personally, I would take B, and look for ways to make "my means" equal with "my desires".
Anything less is a placebo effect. History bears this out time and time again...how many were homeless after the French Revolution? After the Bolsheviks? Taking from the rich and giving to the poor, as a government model, never has and never will work. The only thing that will ever work is a free society where people are allowed to make their own decisions, but are also forced to deal with the results of those decisions. For the most part our nation has only had half of that, because after great domestic tragedies it gives excuses for stupid people to allow more government controls on their lives, instead of taking their lumps and figuring out something better next time. We allow these transgressions to "soften the blow" of downfalls that we ourselves have created.
It's like stepping into a punji pit and later getting your leg amputated from infection, and then running off traipsing through the woods again as if nothing happened, because the government has told you they're going to put pads inside the punji pits from now on.
The problem is deregulation and taking from the poor doesn't work either. We had more economic downturns before the advent of the mixed economy that you hate. Many more. We made less money too. Striking a midway point is the ideal. When I go to Denmark I see how much we aren't about "taking from the rich and giving to the poor" at all, comparatively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thondalar
We don't take from the poor, we give more to our poor than any other nation in the world. We're talking in circles here. I don't "hate" the "mixed economy" that we have, I think that with our current society it's the best scenario. My goal is to change our society to the point that we can have an unregulated economy and true economic growth and prosperity for all without anyone getting hurt by it. Right now it's a dream, because we've built our society on grey areas...nobody is ever truly right or wrong, nobody is responsible for their actions. This creates an environment where people are allowed to take advantage of others not because the government doesn't stop it, but because the people don't stop it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warriorbird
I really don't want to get into a Bretton Woods/Fiat currency debate right now, I'm getting a bit drunk. I will say that it is my firm belief that eventually, all credit crashes....history bears this out time and time again. Right now, our entire economy is based on credit...not just the economy of the people, but the economy of the government. You can look at regulation as stabilizing these highs and lows that are the natural progression of things...I look at them as delaying the inevitable. The only thing we're doing with regulations is insuring we continue to create a larger and larger bubble...it'll still burst eventually.
Ah, Denmark. Yes, they have a flat 8% tax, with an additional 3% tax on the "middle class" and 15% tax on the "highest income"...I would love that in the US.Quote:
When I go to Denmark I see how much we aren't about "taking from the rich and giving to the poor" at all, comparatively.
We most certainly don't give more to the the poor than any other nation in the world. Without credit we wouldn't have corporations and we'd only have Roman level corporations which were mostly just local and city level businesses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thondalar
You might want to check your Denmark figures too. You might be missing more than one thing.
You're right though. I respectfully disagree with you.
Prove me wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by Warriorbird
Such as?Quote:
You might want to check your Denmark figures too. You might be missing more than one thing.
Respect is the key to a fruitful discourse.Quote:
You're right though. I respectfully disagree with you.
http://i.imgur.com/h8aLcmn.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Thondalar
You can hit up to 60% of income in Denmark, tax wise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Denmark
Unless you're seeing something I'm not, it looks to me like there is an 8% tax on everyone, and an additional 3% tax up to 386k/year, and an additional 15% tax after that. Which is pretty much exactly what I said off the top of my head....though considering under 386k/year "middle class" is pretty generous. I didn't realize that "middle level" reached that high...go Denmark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warriorbird
I can't honestly say I've delved TOO much into it, but I would assume, from those numbers, that there are very few government subsidies of any kind for agriculture or business, and even fewer tax shelters. In this I think we are allies...this is one occasion where your "government regulation" doesn't fit your beliefs.
Which is my entire point from the beginning...too much power vested in the federal government, with no oversight from the people, creates things like this. (this meaning our current tax situation in the US, which I don't think anyone will claim is optimal)
You've missed at least 3 tax components. State (which they have too), municipal, and social benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thondalar
Let me repeat it again. The top rate is around 60% when you put it all together and the highest in the world. My girlfriend's Dad paid 57.5% when he passed. He would've paid more but he didn't go to church.
386k dkk is 70 grand usd.
There are agricultural subsidies and business subsidies. There are indeed few tax shelters though. In addition there's a 25% VAT. That ignores little incidentals like the 300% car tax.
I don't even think most Republicans argue that those are really high taxes.
The social benefit is the 8% I referenced. The State tax is the basic income tax, which is the 0%/3%/15% I mentioned. I did miss the municipal tax though, which is apparently 20-24% depending on where you live, and appears to be the single largest part of the income tax puzzle. I also missed the healthcare tax, which is apparently a flat 6% for everyone, and replaced the "county tax" that was abolished in 2007. Oh, I also missed the Church Tax which can be from .42%-1.48%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warriorbird
Yep, sounds about right. All the sources I've checked put the top for income at about 58%, though Wikipedia has the top listed at 61.03%, which isn't THAT far off of the US's 55.9% max, for those of us unfortunate enough to live in New Jersey. It's not the highest in the world, either...that honor goes to Belgium at 67%.Quote:
Let me repeat it again. The top rate is around 60% when you put it all together and the highest in the world. My girlfriend's Dad paid 57.5% when he passed. He would've paid more but he didn't go to church.
Not quite as devalued as I would have guessed, but still pretty low.Quote:
386k dkk is 70 grand usd.
Doing some digging into their subsidies structure brought up some interesting things. Prince Joakim received about $220,000 US in farm subsidies in a year, the Minister for Food, Agriculture and Fisheries, Mariann Fischer Boel, received a total of US$ 480,000; Minister for Education, Ulla Tornes, got US$ 655,000, and the Minister for Finance, Thor Petersen, got US$ 175,000. Nothing funny going on there at all. The industry itself receives billions in production subsidies from the EU, but apparently they're struggling with the EU's "green" initiatives and are now asking for more money to be able to pay for the changes the EU requires in their farming techniques. Most of their agriculture production is for export, and they're struggling to compete with international prices.Quote:
There are agricultural subsidies and business subsidies. There are indeed few tax shelters though. In addition there's a 25% VAT. That ignores little incidentals like the 300% car tax.
Apparently almost 30% of their total workforce is employed by the State...the high taxes make sense now.