Theoretical Maximum Mana Generation: CoL vs GoS

[droit]

Ran some numbers today to figure out maximum theoretical mana generation. Compared a CoL forest gnome cleric to a GoS dwarf empath. I gave both maximum enhancives in every relevant stat and skill, on-node, lying down, etc. I know this calculation has been done before, but the introduction of 1213 Mind Over Body has severely altered the equation. If the GoS empath is grouped with a monk with 150 telepathy lore (I know, I know, but this is all theoretical), the cost of using Sigil of Power drops from 50 to 28, making 1 stamina = .89 mana.

Disclaimer: these are all back-of-the-envelope calculations with rounding that probably wouldn't be tolerable to the more math-minded of you.



COL FOREST GNOME CLERIC

MANA
3x HP +50 max mana ~ 555 total mana
12.5% on-node recovery rate per minute base = 69 mana/min
+25 mana/min from mana rec. enhancives
+12 mana/min from 203
+1 mana/min from 215
TOTAL FROM MANA REGEN: 107 mana/min

SPIRIT
13 max spirit
4/5 base rate + 3 spirit recovery = 4 spirit/3 minutes = +1.33 spirit/min
+0.25 spirit/min from 203
Total spirit regen = +1.58 spirit/min
5 spirit = 555 mana, 1 spirit = 111 mana
TOTAL FROM SPIRIT REGEN: 175 mana/min

TOTAL MANA GENERATION: 282 mana/min




GOS DWARF EMPATH

MANA
3x HP +50 max mana ~ 555 total mana
12.5% on-node recovery rate per minute base = 69 mana/min
+25 mana/min from mana rec. enhancives
+11 mana/min from 203
+1 mana/min from 215
TOTAL FROM MANA REGEN: 106 mana/min

STAMINA
3x PF +50 max stamina +60 CON bonus ~ 273 total stamina
+35% base recovery rate
+10% lying down bonus
+50% stamina recovery enhancives
Subtotal: 95% stamina recovery = 259 stamina/min
+55 stamina/minute from 1107
TOTAL STAMINA REGEN: 314 stamina/min
With 1213, 1 stamina = .89 mana
TOTAL MANA FROM STAMINA: 279 mana/min

TOTAL MANA GENERATION: 385 mana/min


So if we just compare mana per minute, CoL can generate 282 versus GoS's 385, but then there's the issue of initial mana output, when we start with both characters at full mana/stamina/spirit pools.

CoL: 555 mana + [13 spirit * 111 mana] = 1998 initial mana
GoS: 555 mana + [273 stamina * 2(adrenal surge) * .89 mana/stamina] = 1041 initial mana

CoL clearly wins the initial mana dump, but GoS's superior regen rate would even it out in about 9 minutes.

One factor I didn't take into account was the CoLer receiving spirit via 308, as theoretically, there could be a whole group of support clerics funneling spirit basically with no limit. Nor did I consider spirit/mana items from alchemy due to the cooldowns. In any case, this is all purely hypothetical and impractical. Hooray for science!

[Tgo01]

385 mana a minute is crazy.

One could cast a 20 mana spell every 3 seconds and never run out of mana.

[Astray]

385 mana a minute is crazy.

One could cast a 20 mana spell every 3 seconds and never run out of mana.

WHO NEEDS THIS?!

[Fallen]

WHO NEEDS THIS?!

Useful in Warcamps.

[Astray]

Useful in Warcamps.

Assuming the shroud won't go ape shit.

[Tgo01]

WHO NEEDS THIS?!

I need all the mana!!!!!

[Astray]

I need all the mana!!!!!

God, for the life of me I can't think of a decent 'yo momma' joke.

[Fallen]

Scroll Infusion is also a massively mana intensive process. Lengthy sessions will blow through a lot of mana.

[Astray]

Scroll Infusion is also a massively mana intensive process. Lengthy sessions will blow through a lot of mana.
Well, there's that.

[WRoss]

Scroll Infusion is also a massively mana intensive process. Lengthy sessions will blow through a lot of mana.

I used to tap out 6 post cap chars worth of mana just to recharge all the scrolls I had. It was amusing to me how much mana it took.

[Fallen]

I used to tap out 6 post cap chars worth of mana just to recharge all the scrolls I had. It was amusing to me how much mana it took.

Yep. I'd wrack multiple times and have someone sending mana + WOLing me. Still end up running out.

[Nahkaev]

this seems pretty biased tbh - as an empath can triple in PF.
as a pure who *isnt* an empath, this comparison doesn't mean much to me at all.

for comparisons that matter-- like "i'm a (wizard/sorcerer/cleric/empath/whatever) - i want to choose a society" it might be more useful to compare real profession-to-profession differences in mana regeneration.
I am not sure the difference would be so pronounced in those types of comparisons.

[droit]

Did you read the post at all? It's not meant to be a guide to help people choose a society. It was literally meant to be as biased as possible in order to find the maximum possible theoretical mana generation possible.

[everan]

This makes me nostalgic for sitting around in the Inn sending mana to some old empath to infuse while Mithidris did his enchanting.

[Nahkaev]

Did you read the post at all? It's not meant to be a guide to help people choose a society. It was literally meant to be as biased as possible in order to find the maximum possible theoretical mana generation possible.

the implications of which are ... helping people choose a society. If you can't see the value of that then idunno what to tell you... you're dense beyond help. But hey, go ahead and keep neg repping me, it's cool bro.

[droit]

the implications of which are ... helping people choose a society. If you can't see the value of that then idunno what to tell you... you're dense beyond help. But hey, go ahead and keep neg repping me, it's cool bro.

Thank you for telling me what I intended with this post. You've opened my eyes. Congratulations on your singular insight.

I didn't neg rep you before, but I have now.

[Nahkaev]

I didn't tell you what you intended, I told you the implications of what you've posted - which still hold.
Awfully fucking cranky in here tonight for Christmas Eve.

[Jeril]

Generating mana under the most optimal conditions is only useful for a small number of things, like the above mentioned scroll infusion, item charging, imbed making, and chrisms. Most people hardly base their characters around such things.

[Gnomad]

I didn't tell you what you intended, I told you the implications of what you've posted - which still hold.
Awfully fucking cranky in here tonight for Christmas Eve.

I red-repped you.

You read a thread called "Theoretical Maximum Mana Generation" that involves a capped empath with max enhancives lying down while grouped to a post-cap monk with 150 ranks of telepathy lore to generate. It was a good, interesting, and well-researched post that I personally enjoyed. It is also very obviously not a practical thing for a character to do.

Your response was: "this seems pretty biased tbh - as an empath can triple in PF. as a pure who *isnt* an empath, this comparison doesn't mean much to me at all."

That's not a helpful post, and the tone is not exactly nice. Why bother even making it? Droit spent time and put some interesting numbers together. The only "bias" is inherent to game mechanics, and guess what - we're in the Game Mechanics forum. It made me think you didn't even bother reading and understanding the point of the thread.

You could have run some numbers for "realistic mana regen" yourself and contributed to the thread if you wanted. Voln casters get 10 extra mana/minute from Mana. COL Casters get +Max Mana/time to regen all their spirit from Wracking and is race-based. Sunfist gets Stamina->Mana from Power, which based on race and PT (and therefore class).

But you didn't add anything of value to the thread.

As for why I was cranky, I was laying around sick and missing a family Christmas event because I'm tapering off of a high dose dexamethasone (a steroid to combat brain swelling) and was not in a good mood. I'm sorry about the tone of the rep. I try to be better than that.

[Nephelem]

STAMINA
3x PF +50 max stamina +60 CON bonus ~ 273 total stamina
+35% base recovery rate
+10% lying down bonus
+50% stamina recovery enhancives
Subtotal: 95% stamina recovery = 259 stamina/min
+55 stamina/minute from 1107
TOTAL STAMINA REGEN: 314 stamina/min


I just did some testing with Rummirasal who is a GoS Dwarf empath. The actual Max Stamina is 253 rather than 273. The enhancive portion of the Con bonus (+20) counts towards the +50 in Max Stamina enhancives. So with +20 Con bonus you can only get +30 Max Stamina from enhancives. Wearing +20 Con bonus and + 25 Max Stamina enhancives, adding a +14 Max Stamina item adds 5 rather than 14 points to total Stamina. Constitution enhancives do nothing to interfere with Stamina Recovery enhancives, wearing +20 Con bonus in enhancives you still gain Stamina Recovery for every point up to and including +50. Also the base recovery rate appears to be capped at 30 percent + 50 percent from +50 Stamina Recovery enhancives. With everything fully enhanced the recovery percentage while standing is only 80 percent.

[droit]

I just did some testing with Rummirasal who is a GoS Dwarf empath. The actual Max Stamina is 253 rather than 273. The enhancive portion of the Con bonus (+20) counts towards the +50 in Max Stamina enhancives. So with +20 Con bonus you can only get +30 Max Stamina from enhancives. Wearing +20 Con bonus and + 25 Max Stamina enhancives, adding a +14 Max Stamina item adds 5 rather than 14 points to total Stamina. Constitution enhancives do nothing to interfere with Stamina Recovery enhancives, wearing +20 Con bonus in enhancives you still gain Stamina Recovery for every point up to and including +50. Also the base recovery rate appears to be capped at 30 percent + 50 percent from +50 Stamina Recovery enhancives. With everything fully enhanced the recovery percentage while standing is only 80 percent.

Good to know about the CON/Max Stamina interaction, as well as there being a hard cap of 30% base recovery. Lying down still give +10% even when maxed out, so we're looking at 90% of 253 per minute instead of 95% of 273, which is a difference of ~32 stamina, or ~28 mana per minute.

[Sylvan Dreams]

I could have missed it, but I did not see that the Empath used 1109, Sigil of Concentration, or Sigil of Power. Were these intentionally left out?

[Nephelem]

Sigil of concentration is on the mana regen side and I don't have max enhancives there yet. Will test when I do. I believe sigil of power is the implied mechanism for all stamina to mana conversions being discussed. 1213 is already in there. Gonna assume 1106 rather than 1109 and that's a good one as it would be 20 percent of your stamina pool per minute added to max rate.

[droit]

Sigil of power is what the entire stamina-to-mana calculation was based on. Sigil of concentration is actually less efficient than using that stamina for sigil of power (25 mana vs 26.7 mana). And 1107 is included in the original calculation. I don't think Bone Shatter or Empathic Focus have any effect on stamina regen.

[Nephelem]

Oops missed 1107 in there sorry. Interesting that concentration hurts lol.

[Nephelem]

Also I know an empath that WTB 1213 self knowledge for the double trained telepathy.

[Nephelem]

Did a little more testing. You can enhance your stamina pool by +50. Maximum Stamina = CON + [(STR + AGI + DIS) / 3] + (Physical Fitness skill bonus / 3). CON, STR, AGI, DIS, and Physical Fitness bonus are a shared pool that cannot exceed 50 points. If you max CON enhancives that eats 20 of the 50. The remaining 30 can be a combination of any of the remaining factors but cannot exceed 50 points of total STAMINA via enhancives. Basically you can use MAX STAMINA gear for an easy route using fewer enhancive slots or if you have reasons to enhance STR, AGI, DIS, Physical Fitness you could achieve it via that route as well.