OHB/Shield to TWC

[time4fun]

So I finally decided to bite the bullet here and try out TWC. Definitely not sure how I feel about it.

On one hand, obviously swinging two weapons has increased my offensive power, but honestly not as much as I thought it would. Though it's nice to be able to use more of my weapons.

On the other hand, my DS *dived*. I'm fully spelled up with outside spells, and I'm getting hit constantly. I happen to have HCP Plate with resistances to major damage types, so it's not stunning me or anything. But it makes me nervous in regards to my survivability- especially in self-spelled only areas.

It also required a lot of sacrifices.

So I've got a few questions here if people have some perspective:

1) Has anyone else made this switch? How did you feel about it? Did you stick with it?

2) I was only able to pull off 1.5x TWC and .75x dodge. Is that part of why my DS is so bad?

3) Any suggestion on CMAN? I've got Feint and a rank of disarm- but also 32 extra TPs. Paladins don't seem to have a lot of good TWC CMANs. Not sure what to do with those points.

Thanks everyone!

[Archigeek]

I think the answer to #2 is yes. You'll get a lot better as you are further able to put points into dodge and other defensive skills.

[Viekn]

I think TWC is one of the coolest mechanics available. Who doesn't want to be a BAMF dual wielding swords or spikestars. But for me it's always been one of the hardest things to actually implement. Over the past two years since I've returned I've tried TWC on about half a dozen different characters and never got it to work well enough where I stuck with it. Sometimes it's the DS that plunges and it just makes life too difficult, or a lot of times it's just so TP heavy that I would have to make too many sacrifices to actually keep up with it.

Not sure if you stuck with the blunt aspect, but you've got those couple of ohe's that provide a bit of DS. I was never happy using those either, which is why the only things I have left are a pure wizard and a sword/board rogue. Decided to keep it simple and be happy with it.

Good luck.

[Middian]

I did it with two stars and it was devastating. I found if I get at least wiz buffs on, I didn't have an issue with DS, as long as I didn't use Zealot. I had to stop spells at 26, 27 (whichever for weapon bind), to work on Cmans, dex etc. Once I hit in my 40s, I started back on spells.

[time4fun]

I did it with two stars and it was devastating. I found if I get at least wiz buffs on, I didn't have an issue with DS, as long as I didn't use Zealot. I had to stop spells at 26, 27 (whichever for weapon bind), to work on Cmans, dex etc. Once I hit in my 40s, I started back on spells.

Why did you stop? And yeah, I keep using Zealot. I may need to stop doing that. I think I've been doing it because the AS boost made me feel like I was getting a bigger offensive advantage over shield.

Also, funny thing- I could never figure out why V'Tull's Fury was interesting to people. And now that I've been doing TWC for a day, I totally get it.

I wish I had gotten it from you when I had the chance now. It' still around though, right?

[Pitcom]

I Have a TWC halfling warrior. He is by far the hardest character I have ever hunted with. His DS is an abomination, and gets his ass handed to him quite easily. His training has him at 1.66x dodge and fully trained in twc. He uses short swords, and luckily i have a nice sword collection including mechanical flaring weapons. If i didnt have the dual flares that knock down most critters, I'm not sure i'da stuck with it as long as I have.

[Archigeek]

TWC has huge advantages once you can also get enough MOC. I don't use it often because I don't usually melee attack at all, but in certain situations it kicks ass big time. The bloodruin arena was a perfect example: the extra attack afforded by TWC made it possible to increase the quantity of quick kills, by drastically reducing the number of EBP misses etc. A TWC mstrike vs something with a lot of HP is another place it really shines.

[time4fun]

So after a few days, I'm still on the fence on how long I will stick with this, but everytime I"m like "Meh...maybe go back to shield", something like this happens:



>mstrike
You concentrate intently, focusing all your energies.
With instinctive motions, you weave to and fro striking with deliberate and unrelenting fury!
You swing a shimmering silver dhara at a shrickhen!
AS: +450 vs DS: +207 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +25 = +297
... and hit for 96 points of damage!
Left hip pulped, severing the leg.
A shrickhen is knocked sprawling to the ground and she grasps her mangled left leg!
The shrickhen is stunned!
** Necrotic energy from your silver dhara overflows into you! **
You feel energized!
You swing a gilded black mithglin mace at a shrickhen!
AS: +452 vs DS: +114 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +21 = +388
... and hit for 84 points of damage!
Blast to hand reduces it to pulp!
You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away.
Your black mithglin mace suddenly lights up with hundreds of tiny blue sparks!
You briefly close your eyes, and your form is enveloped by thick smoke. A faint green light builds up and emanates from you before tendrils of green mist coalesce around your arm!
A length of a green tentacle bursts out from the tendrils of mist, striking a shrickhen!
CS: +334 - TD: +257 + CvA: +25 + d100: +53 == +155
Warding failed!
The shrickhen is stricken for 37 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!
Blow to the chest takes the shrickhen's breath away.
The shrickhen strains as if burdened by some invisible force.
A length of a green tentacle bursts out from the tendrils of mist, striking a shrickhen!
CS: +334 - TD: +269 + CvA: +25 + d100: +77 == +167
Warding failed!
The shrickhen is stricken for 34 points of damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Hard head twist sends jolts of pain up the neck!
It is knocked to the ground!
The shrickhen is stunned!
The shrickhen strains as if burdened by some invisible force.
The mist enshrouding your arm evaporates into nothing.
You swing a shimmering silver dhara at a shrickhen!
AS: +450 vs DS: +196 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +27 = +310
... and hit for 114 points of damage!
Blow cracks a rib and punctures a lung.
Breathing becomes a challenge.
Your silver dhara suddenly lights up with hundreds of tiny blue sparks!
You briefly close your eyes, and your form is enveloped by thick smoke. A faint green light builds up and emanates from you before tendrils of green mist coalesce around your arm!
A length of a green tentacle bursts out from the tendrils of mist, striking a shrickhen!
CS: +334 - TD: +257 + CvA: +25 + d100: +26 == +128
Warding failed!
The shrickhen is stricken for 25 points of damage!
... 15 points of damage!
Solid chest grapple, a shrickhen is winded!
The shrickhen strains as if burdened by some invisible force.
A length of a green tentacle bursts out from the tendrils of mist, striking a shrickhen!
CS: +334 - TD: +269 + CvA: +25 + d100: +5 == +95
Warded off!
The mist enshrouding your arm evaporates into nothing.
You swing a gilded black mithglin mace at a shrickhen!
AS: +437 vs DS: +181 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +61 = +346
... and hit for 83 points of damage!
Hard hit shatters weapon arm.
Your black mithglin mace suddenly lights up with hundreds of tiny blue sparks!
You briefly close your eyes, and your form is enveloped by thick smoke. A faint green light builds up and emanates from you before tendrils of green mist coalesce around your arm!
A length of a green tentacle bursts out from the tendrils of mist, striking a shrickhen!
CS: +334 - TD: +254 + CvA: +25 + d100: +60 == +165
Warding failed!
The shrickhen is stricken for 39 points of damage!
A shrickhen's arms, legs and head separate from her torso as the dissimilar parts collapse in a heap.
A shrickhen glances around, looking a bit less confident.
A shrickhen recovers from being rebuked, regaining her composure.
A length of a green tentacle bursts out from the tendrils of mist, striking a shrickhen!
CS: +334 - TD: +266 + CvA: +25 + d100: +56 == +149
Warding failed!
The shrickhen is stricken for 31 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!
Blow to the chest takes the shrickhen's breath away.
A shrickhen's arms, legs and head separate from his torso as the dissimilar parts collapse in a heap.
A shrickhen glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a shrickhen.
The bright luminescence fades from around a shrickhen.
A shrickhen recovers from being rebuked, regaining his composure.
The mist enshrouding your arm evaporates into nothing.
Your series of strikes and ripostes leaves you off-balance and out of position.
Roundtime: 7 sec.
[ MStrike Cooldown: +0:01:00, 0:01:00 remaining. ]


Soooooo who knows?

[Androidpk]

Is that an Ivas convert?

[time4fun]

Is that an Ivas convert?

Yeah grapple and tentacles. Which is tough when you RP a character who doesn't believe Ivas is evil or has tentacles!

[time4fun]

Okay, I'll stop after this. But...yeah sticking with this for a while.


mstrike
You concentrate intently, focusing all your energies.
With instinctive motions, you weave to and fro striking with deliberate and unrelenting fury!
You swing a shimmering silver dhara at an elven bandit!
AS: +413 vs DS: +254 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +89 = +279
... and hit for 71 points of damage!
Whoosh! Several ribs driven into lungs.
The elven bandit is stunned!

Your silver dhara suddenly lights up with hundreds of tiny blue sparks!
You briefly close your eyes, and your form is enveloped by thick smoke. A faint green light builds up and emanates from you before tendrils of green mist coalesce around your arm!
A length of a green tentacle bursts out from the tendrils of mist, striking an elven bandit!
CS: +334 - TD: +212 + CvA: +9 + d100: +39 == +170
Warding failed!
The elven bandit is stricken for 54 points of damage!
... 25 points of damage!
Solid leg grapple, pulls muscles to their limits!
It is knocked to the ground!
The elven bandit strains as if burdened by some invisible force.
A length of a green tentacle bursts out from the tendrils of mist, striking an elven robber!
CS: +334 - TD: +221 + CvA: -1 + d100: +35 == +147
Warding failed!
The elven robber is stricken for 51 points of damage!
... 15 points of damage!
Hard pull to the arm throws the elven robber off balance.
It is knocked to the ground!
The elven robber is stunned!
The elven robber strains as if burdened by some invisible force.
A length of a green tentacle bursts out from the tendrils of mist, striking a half-elven thug!
CS: +334 - TD: +194 + CvA: +1 + d100: +69 == +210
Warding failed!
The half-elven thug is stricken for 80 points of damage!
... 25 points of damage!
Hard blow to chest knocks the half-elven thug back and winds him.
It is knocked to the ground!
The half-elven thug is stunned!
The half-elven thug strains as if burdened by some invisible force.

The mist enshrouding your arm evaporates into nothing.
You swing a gilded black mithglin mace at an elven bandit!
AS: +400 vs DS: +184 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +10 = +257
... and hit for 56 points of damage!
Blow to chest causes the elven bandit's heart to skip a beat.

Your black mithglin mace suddenly lights up with hundreds of tiny blue sparks!
You briefly close your eyes, and your form is enveloped by thick smoke. A faint green light builds up and emanates from you before tendrils of green mist coalesce around your arm!
A length of a green tentacle bursts out from the tendrils of mist, striking an elven bandit!
CS: +334 - TD: +211 + CvA: +9 + d100: +56 == +188
Warding failed!
The elven bandit is stricken for 47 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!
Forehead strikes the ground!
The elven bandit strains as if burdened by some invisible force.
A length of a green tentacle bursts out from the tendrils of mist, striking an elven robber!
CS: +334 - TD: +220 + CvA: -1 + d100: +75 == +188
Warding failed!
The elven robber is stricken for 43 points of damage!
... 35 points of damage!
Impressive chest grapple snaps ribs!
A length of a green tentacle bursts out from the tendrils of mist, striking a half-elven thug!
CS: +334 - TD: +193 + CvA: +1 + d100: +18 == +160
Warding failed!
The half-elven thug is stricken for 35 points of damage!
... 25 points of damage!
Hard blow to stomach knocks the half-elven thug back and winds him.
The half-elven thug strains as if burdened by some invisible force.

The mist enshrouding your arm evaporates into nothing.
You swing a shimmering silver dhara at an elven robber!
AS: +413 vs DS: +222 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +30 = +255
... and hit for 69 points of damage!
Knocked back several feet by blow to abdomen.

Your silver dhara suddenly lights up with hundreds of tiny blue sparks!
You briefly close your eyes, and your form is enveloped by thick smoke. A faint green light builds up and emanates from you before tendrils of green mist coalesce around your arm!
A length of a green tentacle bursts out from the tendrils of mist, striking an elven bandit!
CS: +334 - TD: +214 + CvA: +9 + d100: +24 == +153
Warding failed!
The elven bandit is stricken for 57 points of damage!

[You have 16 kills remaining.]
The elven bandit rolls over and dies.
An elven bandit recovers from being rebuked, regaining his composure.
A length of a green tentacle bursts out from the tendrils of mist, striking an elven robber!
CS: +334 - TD: +223 + CvA: -1 + d100: +72 == +182
Warding failed!
The elven robber is stricken for 45 points of damage!
... 35 points of damage!
Left leg wrenched hard as opponent is thrown to the ground!
The elven robber strains as if burdened by some invisible force.
A length of a green tentacle bursts out from the tendrils of mist, striking a half-elven thug!
CS: +334 - TD: +196 + CvA: +1 + d100: +13 == +152
Warding failed!
The half-elven thug is stricken for 53 points of damage!
... 15 points of damage!
Solid chest grapple, a half-elven thug is winded!
The half-elven thug strains as if burdened by some invisible force.

The mist enshrouding your arm evaporates into nothing.
You swing a gilded black mithglin mace at an elven robber!
AS: +400 vs DS: +203 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +95 = +326
... and hit for 85 points of damage!
Stomach ripped open by mighty blow!

[You have 15 kills remaining.]
The elven robber rolls over and dies.
You swing a shimmering silver dhara at a half-elven thug!
AS: +413 vs DS: +150 with AvD: +42 + d100 roll: +34 = +339
... and hit for 119 points of damage!
Incredible blast shatters head into a red spray.

[You have 14 kills remaining.]
The half-elven thug rolls over and dies.
A half-elven thug seems a bit less imposing.
A half-elven thug recovers from being rebuked, regaining his composure.

** Necrotic energy from your silver dhara overflows into you! **

You feel reinvigorated!
Your series of strikes and ripostes leaves you off-balance and out of position.
Roundtime: 8 sec.
R>
[ MStrike Cooldown: +0:01:00, 0:01:00 remaining. ]
R>loot

[Shaps]

Not sure what is with your training plan, but believe you're in your 70s right? Throwing this together should be feasible, just have to leave some of your auxillary skills lower than what you currently have.

Armor 9/0
CM 5/4
Blunt 9/3
MOC 5/2
PF 9/0
Dodge 5/3
HP 0/3
TWC 9/9
-----------
51/24

Should leave you plenty for 1640/120, some climb/swim/perception/etc. Because by level 30 or so you should have plenty of points to cover the baseline above, leaving the remaining points to put where you want.

If you are going TWC, one of the biggest things is 2xPF. I use pole-arms, and the 2xPF is huge contributor to survival.

[Shaps]

I guess trying to say, when going with a specific setup like TWC.. the important part is to make the core skills your priority, not filler material (ie. .75x/level dodge or 1.5x/level TWC).. those skills should be the priority. Everything else will fill in over time, and very quickly now that you're in your 70s as TPs are readily available.

[Shaps]

Also taking a look at it, for lores I'd do the following (though to each their own).

55 Ranks Religion - 85% kneel effect; 15% DS reduce/-11% EBP reduce; +40/-20 Zealot; etc. (then can run 102 with 20 ranks MnS and get a +11 AS boost/+9 DS Boost running Zealot and 102. So a nice overall boost in effectiveness for you).

Then I'd shoot for 50 ranks Summoning for all the benefits, but also for 6 targets with 1630. Nice bonus.

Then it's do you want more Religion for higher AS + DS running with 102; or Blessing benefits.

[time4fun]

Appreciate the thoughtful replies here Shaps. And I think you're hitting on some of my ambivalence in action. This is my current training:

Vishra (at level 73), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 208 108
Armor Use..........................| 250 150
Combat Maneuvers...................| 175 75
Blunt Weapons......................| 250 150
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 130 35
Physical Fitness...................| 175 75
Dodging............................| 153 53
Harness Power......................| 173 73
Spirit Mana Control................| 105 25
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 90 20
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 140 40
Perception.........................| 50 10
Climbing...........................| 111 27

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 20

Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 48
Training Points: 20 Phy 0 Mnt (732 Phy converted to Mnt)
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

Your advice on core TWC skills is solid, but the reality is I'm just not willing to give up certain things (which is why TWC is probably not going to be viable for that long).

-I am on the same page as you with lores. I ditched blessing and largely kept summoning and religion. Right now the short term goal is to get religion back up to 22. The good news is Ivas's crits are grapple. So while the high kneeling percentage is important, I have more leeway than most on that front.

-Wearing full plate is a bit of a dampener on dodge. I'm actually thinking that .75x dodge is fine if I start tanking PF. I think I may get more bang for my buck there with redux vs getting like .83 DS every (expensive) dodge rank. Fortunately I'm in HCP Plate with moderate resistance to slash/puncture/crush. Even that may not be enough much longer though.

-The spells are the big issue. I'm not just doing TWC, I'm doing TWC Blink. And that means I need to keep my spells high to keep the flare rate up. Putting 1630 in both weapons is key for crowd control. The more Blink procs, the less I get hit. So I'm going to try to maintain approximately 1x in spells.

I think the reality of TWC for Paladins is that it works well at lower levels and well post-cap. But in between is tough. Realistically, if I weren't rocking some pricey weapons and pricey armor this wouldn't be remotely viable for me. And once I leave the Tower and have to head into OTF or The Rift, I'm probably going to have to flee back to shield use again.

I'm also running into major issues with CMANs. Again, Paladins just aren't really built for TWC. We don't have the TWC CMANs. So right now I've got:

Feint: Rank 5
Disarm: Rank 3
Cunning Defense: Rank 2

Disarm is the thing I'm most terrified of- for obvious reasons. And since my perception is low, I'm hoping cunning defense will help out here along with the disarm ranks. I will say though, I'm pleased at how well disarm is working for me even at just rank 3 and 1x CM.

[Archigeek]

Dangerous place to take expensive weaponry, considering that it can be thrown into the next room. I do think that place is really cool though. Wish they'd expand it to about 3x current size. Some of the most inventive design in GS in the place and the critters.

[time4fun]

Dangerous place to take expensive weaponry, considering that it can be thrown into the next room. I do think that place is really cool though. Wish they'd expand it to about 3x current size. Some of the most inventive design in GS in the place and the critters.

OTF or the Rift?

Unfortunately, they're both really dangerous for nice weapons. It makes me extremely nervous.

And without my T5 Ensorcelled Banshee Shield, I feel even more nervous about things like itchy curses. Le sigh.

[Archigeek]

OTF or the Rift?

Unfortunately, they're both really dangerous for nice weapons. It makes me extremely nervous.

And without my T5 Ensorcelled Banshee Shield, I feel even more nervous about things like itchy curses. Le sigh.

No, the tower. You can get a weapon ripped out of your hand and tossed into the next room in there, and poof, the janitor might take it in an instant. The rift is only dangerous to carried objects on planes 1, 2, 3, and 5 due to curse. No such worries on 4 or in the Scatter. Most weapon loss in the rift happens on plane 1. As a paladin this shouldn't be worrying you much, since you should be sitting on very solid TD.

The tower is a cool place though, and worth the risk if you prepare for it. And everyone should get impregnated by a moulis at some point in their GS career. I remember the first time this happened and it was a very "holy shit!" moment. I think every GM on staff was watching it go down and laughing their asses off behind the scenes.

[Shaps]

Looking at your training, I still think you could fit in (and see a better overall benefit/survival rate) with the baseline plan I proposed earlier.

I understand you want to stay near 1x in spells, and I'll admit I don't understand how that supposedly affects flare rate... but.. at 73... if you were to have 120 and lets say 1640.. that is about what, .8x/level.

This would allow you to keep your lores if you want, but more importantly up your MOC to 1x/level and your PF to 2x/level. I went through this same learning curve with PF back when I used to 2x CM. I noticed a marked difference when I finally switched from 2xCM to 2xPF. I believe you would as well. Though some mathmeticians could probably make a better case.

I guess the idea is.. do 8 spells really make that much of a difference.. considering all of the other benefits/skills you could train with those points at this part of your career? Because if as you said you're worried about survival, I'd say those spells are the least effective way to garner it.

I definetly like your training plan/idea/scope of your character... so in the end... either path gets you to 100 and end game. Then you can just do whatever anyways.

[Shaps]

As for CMANS, sure they're aren't any real huge abilities for Paladins, but that doesn't really matter because of our spells.

With your weapons, and this may sound odd.. but I would suggest the following (since can only rank 5 bond to one of them).

Disarm - 5 ranks - 45 points
CDEF - 5 ranks - 29 points
--------------------------------
Effectively 6 ranks of Disarm defense: Total 74 points which would cover you.

Then push rest into Feint, then WSPEC.

Another option is: 3 ranks Disarm/3 ranks CDEF/3 ranks WSPEC/3 ranks Feint. Giving you a nice overall baseline.

I only have 3 ranks feint with WSPEC and I feint things just fine. 5 is the goal eventually, but with 1602/1614/1615/1630... Feint can take a slight backseat.

[Shaps]

As for CMANS, sure they're aren't any real huge abilities for Paladins, but that doesn't really matter because of our spells.

With your weapons, and this may sound odd.. but I would suggest the following (since can only rank 5 bond to one of them).

Disarm - 5 ranks - 45 points
CDEF - 5 ranks - 29 points
--------------------------------
Effectively 6 ranks of Disarm defense: Total 74 points which would cover you.

Then push rest into Feint, then WSPEC.

Another option is: 3 ranks Disarm/3 ranks CDEF/3 ranks WSPEC/3 ranks Feint. Giving you a nice overall baseline.

I only have 3 ranks feint with WSPEC and I feint things just fine. 5 is the goal eventually, but with 1602/1614/1615/1630... Feint can take a slight backseat.