question

[Keller]

So I am taking the Law School Admission Test December 4th. I was poking around the law school admissions council website and found some very interesting forms. They were applications for special testing accomodations, including extra time in each section. I have mild add (don't we all?) for which I am medicated. Seeing as time is a definate issue for me, an extra 5 minutes in each section would be huge for my score. I usually end each section by having to guess on the last couple of questions (except in the logic games, which I finish with ample time). I am scoring in thr 165-170 range consistently which is good enough to get into about any non-Ivy school. However, I could be in the 175 range if given the extra 20 minutes. I could get the accomodations granted, but not for this test. I would need to postpone my test until at least february and then I could not apply for entrance in the fall of 2005. Do I A) take my chances and hope for the best or B) Take another year off and continue to wait tables and be assured of a good score. Other considerations are that I would like to go into politics whether it be in the legislative or judiciary capacity and a degree from Chicago or Yale looks a lot better than USC or UCLA (which are the two schools I pick between if I don't apply for accomodations). Any good advice?

[SpunGirl]

I'm not sure how I feel about the whole "special accomodations" thing. I mean, if someone is so ADD they can't get a good score on the test, I don't know how well they'd fare in law school, with all the studying, long hours, and intense concentration that's required.

I think the scores you say you're already getting are great, and probably reflect your natural intelligence and ability. I think it'd be nice if people started recognizing that state schools can turn out just as great of a candidate for political positions as private schools can. There's also the question of costs to consider - how much in debt do you plan to be when you graduate? What's an acceptable amount vs. too much?

Personally, I'd take the test ASAP and move on. Doing something like waiting tables when you're clearly more ambitious and ready for better things than that has to be irritiating as hell.

-K

[Edited on 11-12-2004 by SpunGirl]

[Keller]

Most of my life I have been able to capitalize on ADD. I totally agree with you that I should not be given special accomodations because a client will not be like, sure -- he can 10% longer, just go ahead and bill me for it. I do well without the extra time, but I could easily get a nice package if I applied to USC with a 175.

As for costs, I am ready for just about anything. I don't know how feasible it will be, but I would like to apply for a clerkship and move towards becoming a state judge. The 9-5ness of it appeals to me as I want to be a family man. I will be able to pay back whatever debt it is within 10 years for sure, and I am looking at schools based on alumni network and not price. USC is very expensive, but the alumni network is amazing.

Waiting tables is not terrible, but I would like to move on. I just have these fears that I will get a really difficult reading comp passage and it will destroy my score. I can really only get 15 wrong on the test, max, and have decent shot at getting into USC. Right now I am perfect on most logic games sections, miss 1-3 on moderate reading comp sections ... 4-7 on ones with a tough passage, and I usually miss 3-5 on each argument section. Having the extra 5 minutes in reading comp would assure me that I have time to thoroughly read the fourth passage and would ensure I only get 1-3 wrong in that section, basically making less than a 165 a near impossibility.

Here's to just hoping we get an easy test. I guess I can always cancel and cherry-pick a test. Then I could also apply for the special accomodations. :)

[Killer Kitten]

I'm with Spun. Do it now and go for it. Even in the best of times the future is uncertain, in this day and age it's downright dark.

I'd jump in and start chasing my goals. There is always a reason to wait, and the older you get the easier it is to find one. When I was wanting to go to college there was always a great reason to wait another year. Then one day I realized that I was going to turn 30 and I was still playing florist in somebody elses shop and waiting for conditions to be perfect. Best thing I ever did was to just do it.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll do great.

Kimm

[AnticorRifling]

I think extra time is bullshit. Why should someone, like myself, with no ADD or other issue that requires "special accomodations" be penalized? And we are being penalized by not getting the extra time that you get. Hell I might get nervous on a test and 5 extra minutes could be the deal breaker for me but tough shit I don't get that extra time and someone else does! Nope I don't agree with it. Now if you needed a special pencil or something sure but not extra time. Hell might as well make the test in pictures so someone who can't read can go ahead and be a lawyer.

I know I come off like an asshole with stuff like this and I'm sorry, I truely am. But the fact of the matter is extra time for someone that can't pay attention isn't the solution. I still believe that pain retains if you want this bad enough you'll focus. I know that I learned to stop letting my mind wander when it mattered and I did it because I failed something that mattered to me and I was like "Ohh shit wake up call"

[Wezas]

I took an Adult ADD test a few years ago. Seemed I have mild ADD. My bigger problem is that if you tell me 3 or 4 things, I'll remember the last thing you said, and nothing else. This has haunted me all my life and a few years ago I told my mom about it. She responded "Oh yeah, we had you tested when you were little and they said something like that".

Thanks for the info. Mother of the Year award will take 3-5 days for shipping.

[AnticorRifling]

Hey Wezas:

I hate you!

You're a moron.


Have a great day!!

[Wezas]

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
Have a great day!!

Thanks Buddy!

[Tsa`ah]

I agree with Anticor.

This society has enough crutches, we don't need more. Doctors, lawyers, policemen, firemen, or ditch digger. It doesn't matter.

If you can't pass the same test with the same requirements and restrictions as everyone else ... don't bother.

[HarmNone]

I see where Keller is coming from. Although law school is a difficult course of study, the study required is not done in a "test environment", allowing for some accomodation of the problem Keller is dealing with. Test conditions, however, are particularly difficult for those suffering from ADD.

I don't happen to be one who feels that those who really NEED that little extra shouldn't get it. Just because it was easy for me doesn't mean it's going to be easy for everyone. Why not do what we can to make the playing field as even as possible?

That said, if your ADD is only mild, Keller, the difference you might achieve may not be enough to justify a full year of delay. That would be up to you to decide. There is an element of chance in waiting, just as there is in going ahead.

If you do decide to go ahead and take the test in December, be sure you get enough rest before hand, don't go to the test on an empty stomach, and call on your support group (friends and family) to help you prepare well in advance. I'm sure you've already started that. ;)

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the very best. You haven't chosen an easy major, and your work is cut out for you no matter which decision you make. Cheers, hon! :)

[DeV]

My only advice to you is to go for it and get it over with. Forget about the extra time because it won't matter much to a client and there won't be any special exceptions when it comes to practicing law. As someone who is also going into the field of law once I graduate with my masters I have to say, I won't be requesting any special accomodations because of my ADD and in law school, there are none that will be given to you. It's every shark for themself and I watched my mom go through 2 years of law school and know that you may as well go in there not expecting anything from anyone except for making the best use of your intelligence. Like Spun said, you're already getting some damn good scores...doesn't appear that you are in need of anything extra.

Whatever you do, good luck with everything .

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by HarmNone
I see where Keller is coming from. Although law school is a difficult course of study, the study required is not done in a "test environment", allowing for some accomodation of the problem Keller is dealing with. Test conditions, however, are particularly difficult for those suffering from ADD.

I don't happen to be one who feels that those who really NEED that little extra shouldn't get it. Just because it was easy for me doesn't mean it's going to be easy for everyone. Why not do what we can to make the playing field as even as possible?

That said, if your ADD is only mild, Keller, the difference you might achieve may not be enough to justify a full year of delay. That would be up to you to decide. There is an element of chance in waiting, just as there is in going ahead.

If you do decide to go ahead and take the test in December, be sure you get enough rest before hand, don't go to the test on an empty stomach, and call on your support group (friends and family) to help you prepare well in advance. I'm sure you've already started that. ;)

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the very best. You haven't chosen an easy major, and your work is cut out for you no matter which decision you make. Cheers, hon! :)

Because there shouldn't be an even playing field..... Tests/professions/ things in life in general have different degrees of difficulty for a reason. You want the best QUALIFIED person filling the role. You don't want someone who gets in because some bleeding heart wants everyone to have an equal shot....or maybe you do. Either way it's a sore spot with me.

[DeV]

I don't think this has anything to do with bleedings hearts as ADD is something that could effect anyone. If there are accomodations it's not his fault that they're in place and he is thinking of making use of something that has been in place since, who knows. He's already doing good enough to get into a great law school but I do agree there should be no special accomodations.

[HarmNone]

Heh. Perhaps I am a bleeding heart, Anticor. I've never really thought of myself that way, but others may see it so.

My experience has shown me that people with ADD usually do much better in non-test situations than in test situations. Therefore, from my viewpoint, there will be those who would be excellent attorneys who are denied the opportunity because of a test, as opposed to because they can't do the work. When not under test conditions they definitely CAN do the work. :)

Point being, it's Keller's decision to make. Nobody can really help with it, and there's a risk with either choice.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
I know that I learned to stop letting my mind wander when it mattered and I did it because I failed something that mattered to me and I was like "Ohh shit wake up call" Willpower cannot always overcome biology. For instance, quadriplegics cannot will their limbs to move. Not that I disagree with the following:
You want the best QUALIFIED person filling the role.

[Keller]

lol. I agree 100% with you Anticor. There should be no special accomodations. Since there are, and I fit the bill for those who can apply for them, I'm thinking about doing it.

That's like saying tax deduction A is not fair. But if you qualify for deduction A and it will save you money, I'll give you 10 to 1 odds that you'll take advantage of it.

In other news: The real issue is my reading comp (the part that is most hindered by my condition). Even if I could just apply for an extra 5 minutes in that section I would be golden. Sometimes I'll get an extremely boring passage (like the practive exam last night where I read about the genetics of a certain type of waterbug. When you get a passage like that with dense scientific information and you already have a predisposition to just looking at words and thinking about what you're going to eat for lunch, it can absolutely kill your score.

[longshot]

This has nothing to do with disability... Zero.

Allow me to explain.

The LSAT is difficult because it's timed.

Some of you might be saying "duh! Of course!"
But, if you are unfamiliar with the test, there are some things you should know.

This is the only graduate level test that does not require any prior knowledge. NONE. Zero.

All the answers are there. What makes the test difficult is finding the correct answers for a section of questions in the given timeframe.

There is no math. There are no legal concepts tested... nothing.

There is a logical puzzle section, a reading comprehension section that asks you questions only on the passages on the test, and two logic sections that ask you to strengthen and weaken arguments, or find parallel structure.

All the answers are there. Anyone here can sit for this test.

What makes the test hard is the limited time. That is it. I would say that 80% of the posters here could get a perfect score if given an unlimited amount of time.

In asking for more time, you are subverting the only mechanism that makes the test difficult.

Honestly, who the fuck wouldn't space out during a boring passage about choosing the best way to preserve Native American languages that have been without a writing system for centuries?

Now, here's the real issue---

To me, it sounds like this is of no concern to you, and you're ethically okay with this.

I think you're a cocknozzle, so this really doesn't surprise me.

The question you're really asking is this:

"Is delaying my plans for a year in order to cheat the system a bad idea?"

This isn't about disability at all.

It's about you... and if you should work at TGI Fridays for a year so you can go up a few percentile points.

You take meds for your add. Nut up and take the test.

Also, enjoy life in the most miserable profession in this country.


P.S. Don't u2u me asking me what University I go to. I don't associate with shitbags in real life, and I don't make exceptions to those rules for shitbags who post on message boards either.

[Farquar]

Lemme share my experiences with you, since I'm a lawyer and did go to law school (I think).

The top law schools are generally referred to as the "top 14". 14 because these schools are always in the top 14 of the USNEWS and world report law school rankings.

Lemme go over the top 14 real quick:
1. Yale: a clear cut above every other school. Even with a 4.00 and a 175(99.9 percentile), you only have a 50% chance of getting in. Make sure you've done something special, or its pretty much a crap shoot. Legal all stars as teachers, and every year 800+ employers interview for a class of about 220. Any less than a 3.7 gpa and youre making a donation the the Yale general fund, unless you have something spectacular on your record (foreign ruler, politician, or you have a building at Yale named after you or your parents).

2. Harvard/Stanford: Usually a 4.00 and a 172+ is a lock, moreso at Harvard than Stanford, because Harvard's class is so large. Gold tickets. Most people still consider Harvard to be better than Yale, but legal professionals usually see Yale as having a small edge.

3. Columbia/NYU/Chicago/Penn: Still awesome schools, still golden tickets essentially. These schools are known as "LSAT whores"...you have a decent chance(10-25%) of getting in with a 3.00 and a perfect 180.

4. Virginia/Michigan/Berkeley - The top publics. These schools generally tend to be more GPA heavy, so they won't look at a top lsat as favorably as the previous three. Berekely is notorious for rejecting people with lower than a 3.7. Lower cost to attend overall.

5. Cornell/Duke/Georgetown/Nwestern - Cornell tends to be more GPA heavy than the other three, but a 3.5/165+ should give you a 50%+ chance at these schools.

Below that but considered top schools still: UCLA, USC, Minnesota, etc. Generally, anything in the USNEWS top 25 should put you in good shape for whatever you want to do.

Let me know your GPA and I'll try to estimate your chances. If you can break 170, you have a decent shot at some ivies depending on your gpa. If you have any other q's lemme know, especially about Harvard admissions, let me know.

[Satira]

This test is based on the ability to pay attention and think straight. So if your ADD really is a huge problem, you shouldn't be trying to take it at all.

Considering your ADD is mild, don't cheat the system just to get a better score. Just go take the test.

I'm sure you'll do fine.

[Keller]

Originally posted by longshot
This has nothing to do with disability... Zero.

Allow me to explain.

The LSAT is difficult because it's timed.

Some of you might be saying "duh! Of course!"
But, if you are unfamiliar with the test, there are some things you should know.

This is the only graduate level test that does not require any prior knowledge. NONE. Zero.

All the answers are there. What makes the test difficult is finding the correct answers for a section of questions in the given timeframe.

There is no math. There are no legal concepts tested... nothing.

There is a logical puzzle section, a reading comprehension section that asks you questions only on the passages on the test, and two logic sections that ask you to strengthen and weaken arguments, or find parallel structure.

All the answers are there. Anyone here can sit for this test.

What makes the test hard is the limited time. That is it. I would say that 80% of the posters here could get a perfect score if given an unlimited amount of time.

In asking for more time, you are subverting the only mechanism that makes the test difficult.

Honestly, who the fuck wouldn't space out during a boring passage about choosing the best way to preserve Native American languages that have been without a writing system for centuries?

Now, here's the real issue---

To me, it sounds like this is of no concern to you, and you're ethically okay with this.

I think you're a cocknozzle, so this really doesn't surprise me.

The question you're really asking is this:

"Is delaying my plans for a year in order to cheat the system a bad idea?"

This isn't about disability at all.

It's about you... and if you should work at TGI Fridays for a year so you can go up a few percentile points.

You take meds for your add. Nut up and take the test.

Also, enjoy life in the most miserable profession in this country.


P.S. Don't u2u me asking me what University I go to. I don't associate with shitbags in real life, and I don't make exceptions to those rules for shitbags who post on message boards either.

Glad to hear you have such a high opinion of me. Any particular reason, or do you just regularly label individuals cocknozzles until they prove otherwise?

ADD is a condition for which I have seen a doctor and been proscribed a medication. It is also a condition for which the LSAC has found it prudent to allow testers an additional time for each section. Do you take advantage of tax loopholes? It's like saying ... this isn't about the tax code, it's about you denying the federal government revenue to save a few bucks.

In other news, hyperbole much? 80%? C'mon, be a little more realistic.

Also, the October 99 passage about tribal languages in North America was quite interesting. Pick a better example next time.

[Keller]

Originally posted by Satira
This test is based on the ability to pay attention and think straight. So if your ADD really is a huge problem, you shouldn't be trying to take it at all.

Considering your ADD is mild, don't cheat the system just to get a better score. Just go take the test.

I'm sure you'll do fine.

I will be taking the LSAT in December, and unless I bomb it I will be taking the score and applying with it. The shitty part is that I am tied to LA and the only school in the area that I want to go to is USC. I don't want to practice in CA and would like to get back to MI or IN. USC would be a good school because they have a very national alumni network being a private school that does not have a majority of students from California. This is obviously not the case at UCLA, Pepperdine, or Loyola. So I'm just going to take my meds and nut up, as longshot so lovingly put it.

[Keller]

Update: I just got out of the test and all I have to say is FUCKING PWND!!!!111!!11

For those who are familiar -- I am 99% sure I have a perfect argument section, 100% sure I have a perfect games section. In addition I am confident I missed less than 5 (most likely 3) on the other argument section and less than 4 (most likely 3 again) on the reading comprehension. Given that December, with the typical procrastinating student, generally has a better curve and never a worse curve than other tests -- I expect to score in the 172-176 range. I predict 173. If indeed I got a 173 and I decide to go to USC, today was a VERY profitable day for me since that score should ensure me a generous financial package. I know it seems like I am bragging -- but I am just that excited. I have been skipping around the house singing, "I kicked ass, FUCK YA!" to the tune of the theme song to Team America.

[Mistomeer]

If they're going to give you extra time, take advantage of it. You only really want to take the LSAT once, so take the extra time, do the best you can, and get into the best school you can.

[HarmNone]

Wow, Keller! That sounds great! Congratulations! :)

[Keller]

Originally posted by Mistomeer
If they're going to give you extra time, take advantage of it. You only really want to take the LSAT once, so take the extra time, do the best you can, and get into the best school you can.

Thanks for at least being understanding. However, I took he-who-calls-me-cocknozzle's advice and took my meds, nutted up, and sat for the test. Because I did well enough I will not cancel my score and take it again. If for some reason I bombed it and need to retake the exam to compensate for my poor score I will apply for extra time. But I seriously doubt that being that case.

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Keller
Update: I just got out of the test and all I have to say is FUCKING PWND!!!!111!!11

For those who are familiar -- I am 99% sure I have a perfect argument section, 100% sure I have a perfect games section. In addition I am confident I missed less than 5 (most likely 3) on the other argument section and less than 4 (most likely 3 again) on the reading comprehension. Given that December, with the typical procrastinating student, generally has a better curve and never a worse curve than other tests -- I expect to score in the 172-176 range. I predict 173. If indeed I got a 173 and I decide to go to USC, today was a VERY profitable day for me since that score should ensure me a generous financial package. I know it seems like I am bragging -- but I am just that excited. I have been skipping around the house singing, "I kicked ass, FUCK YA!" to the tune of the theme song to Team America.

It is bragging and it should be. You kicked ass. Let us know your score and congrats that's good shit!