I'm sorry, but... (Illegal immigrants)

[Betheny]

Am I wrong for thinking these people just need to go home if they don't like it?

If you're legal, you have no problems to worry about. If you're illegal, you don't belong in my country sucking off the success of others anyway.

Read this, and tell me what you think.


Some Laborers Arrested In Va. Face Deportation
Frightening of Immigrant Community Decried

By David Cho
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 27, 2004; Page A01

The arrest of 24 Latino day laborers looking for work outside a 7-Eleven in Woodbridge was intended as a crackdown on loitering, Prince William County police say. The charge, they noted, carries only a $100 fine.

But the penalty for many ended up being more severe: Eleven of the workers could not prove their identity and were transferred to federal custody. They have been put in an adult detention center in Manassas and face deportation.

David Martinez, left, with Johan Pavon, talks about being arrested in Woodbridge. Martinez was released after he agreed to return to Honduras. (Preston Keres -- The Washington Post)

Immigration advocates and officials from other jurisdictions say the mass roundup last week is fracturing the fragile trust between local law enforcement agencies and immigrants. The incident may discourage immigrants from reporting crimes or working with detectives, they said, at a time when millions of dollars are being spent to combat a growing gang problem.

"This is exactly what immigrants were afraid of -- a bunch of Latinos hanging out and the police come by and pick them up and refer them" to federal immigration agents, said Tim Freilich, managing attorney of the Virginia Justice Center. "From a policy standpoint, the arrests don't make any sense. It's not going to solve the issue of day laborers in Woodbridge. . . . It's just going to frighten the immigrant community."

The arrests came about three months after a new Virginia law gave state and local police the authority to arrest illegal immigrants without a warrant. The law, which targeted possible terrorists, was intended to be limited in scope and could be applied only if the immigrant had been convicted of a felony, had been ordered out of the country and was suspected of committing another crime.

But the law incited a much broader reaction of panic and mistrust of local police departments. For example, when the Fairfax County police held a Spanish-language child safety seat demonstration in Herndon, no one from the immigrant community showed up, fearing they would be arrested in an immigration sweep.

"The arrests contradict the public promise made by local police chiefs in Virginia, who made a commitment not to apply that law . . . indiscriminately against immigrants who were innocent of criminal charges," said Ricardo Juarez, coordinator of a local group called Mexicans Without Borders, which organized a small protest in Woodbridge yesterday.

Police Capt. Tim Rudy defended the operation, saying the Prince William arrests had nothing to do with the new law. He said he has been fielding complaints every day from customers and businesses about the informal day worker gathering site at Route 1 and Longview Drive.

Rudy said his officers had allowed the laborers to solicit jobs there before most businesses open at 9 a.m., but they repeatedly told them to get off the property after then. The warnings went unheeded for months, so Rudy ordered the arrests Oct. 19.

"Women are being harassed, there's urinating in public behind the 7-Eleven, there's trash all over the place," he said. "This was a community maintenance issue. It had nothing to do with immigration."

Rudy said police used fingerprints to formally identify 11 of the day workers arrested. Files showed they had committed immigration violations.

"That's why we called" Immigration and Customs Enforcement, he said. "That's just good police work."

Officials from other jurisdictions said their police departments rarely refer illegal immigrants to federal custody unless they have committed a felony.

Linking police actions with immigration enforcement is very touchy for local departments and has "a very likely outcome of an entire segment of the population shutting down because they are afraid of you," said Arlington County police spokesman Matt Martin. "And what you create is a group of people who's ripe for additional victimization."

Day laborer sites have sparked debate in several jurisdictions undergoing rapid demographic change. The issue has sharply divided communities and often involves grievances about crowded housing and large-scale illegal immigration.

In Herndon, residents sometimes pressure Mayor Michael O'Reilly to rid the town of its growing number of day laborers.

O'Reilly said, however: "The wholesale rounding up of groups of people I don't believe has any long-term benefit for anyone in the community. I would much rather see everyone working together in a constructive fashion, instead of essentially declaring war on a certain practice."

Prince William Supervisor Hilda M. Barg (D-Woodbridge) applauded the county police department's efforts, saying police are under "great pressure" to solve the issue. "The banks, the stores don't want them to hang around; the school and the parents don't want their kids to see people urinating in public, which does happen," she said.

But Shawn Fisher, PTA president of Lynn Middle School, which is adjacent to the 7-Eleven, questioned the loitering arrests.

"To my knowledge, there has been no incident involving a student and any of the day workers," she said. "I am disheartened that the police department felt the need to involve" federal immigration. The laborers are just seeking employment and "ultimately have tried to obtain a better life for themselves and their families," she said.

David Martinez, 34, who was one of the 24 arrested day workers, was released by immigration officials after he agreed to return to his native Honduras. He said through an interpreter: "I want to say to the community to help my immigrant brothers. Tell the authorities to have a conscience, because we are all human."

[Edited on 10-27-2004 by Maimara]

[Ivex]

The way I see it, they have two choices

1. Become a legal citizen
2. Leave

I mean, come on now.

[Betheny]

Originally posted by Ivex
The way I see it, they have two choices

1. Become a legal citizen
2. Leave

I mean, come on now.

I can't believe there is even an outcry, or advocacy for these people. REally. I mean, they shouldn't be treated like they aren't human, but GTFO. If you really want to make a life for yourself in the US, BECOME A CITIZEN. DO IT LEGALLY.

[Parkbandit]

You are SUCH a Republican Maimara...

[Betheny]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
You are SUCH a Republican Maimara...

No but I wouldn't mind a little Republican in me.

[Parkbandit]

I don't have a little Republican.

:smug:

[Betheny]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I don't have a little Republican.

:smug:

From what I understand, all Republicans have a little Republican... :flames:

[CrystalTears]

OMG. Shut up you too. Little or not, Republicans turn me on. :P

[Betheny]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
OMG. Shut up you too. Little or not, Republicans turn me on. :P

So you admit it's small.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
OMG. Shut up you too. Little or not, Republicans turn me on. :P

[Betheny]

But you aren't denying that it's small.

Editd to add:

OMG STFU THIS IS A SERIOUS THREAD.

Back to the topic at hand.

[Edited on 10-27-2004 by Maimara]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Maimara
But you aren't denying that it's small.

Editd to add:

OMG STFU THIS IS A SERIOUS THREAD.

Back to the topic at hand.

[Edited on 10-27-2004 by Maimara]



Originally posted by Parkbandit
I don't have a little Republican.

:smug:

[Betheny]

Just for that you shall be punished.

[xtc]

Maimara I agree with you 100%.

Illegal immigrants are a slap in the face to every potential immigrant who is standing in line to come to America legally. Politicians shouldn't pander to illegal immigrants in the hope of getting votes. Bush and Kerry have both missed the boat on this one. Illegal immigrants shouldn't get driver's licenses, health care, work permits or anything else except a one way ticket back to the country they came from, period. What is even a bigger insult is the term the media uses to refer to illegal immigrants, undocumented workers. What is that? an attempt to legitimise their plight? Or are they hoping we will forget they are illegal immigrants?

ps You have to register to read The Washington Post story would you mind posting the story?

[SpunGirl]

I completely agree, Maimara. I'm all for human rights, I think that we should exercise their human right to safe transport back home.

-K

[Betheny]

Sorry about that! I added the story to the original post.

[Edited on 10-27-2004 by Maimara]

Also, I wanted to say I think this story uses the word 'immigrant' synonymously with illegal immigrant. That's not right. Immigrants are legal. They imply pretty much that there are no legal immigrants. LOL.

[Edited on 10-27-2004 by Maimara]

All illegal immigrants need to get the fuck out of this country. They are not welcome.

- Arkans

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Maimara
I can't believe there is even an outcry, or advocacy for these people.Some nice people have too much time on their hands. That's how I see it.

[Sean]

Originally posted by Arkans
All illegal immigrants need to get the fuck out of this country. They are not welcome.

- Arkans

Correction. Not welcome by you.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Tijay

Originally posted by Arkans
All illegal immigrants need to get the fuck out of this country. They are not welcome.

- Arkans

Correction. Not welcome by you.

So you are saying you welcome ILLEGAL Aliens into this country?

Please tell me why because I certainly don't get it... especially after 9-11

[Sean]

Not particularly. However I do feel they fill an important job role until Americans are ready to step off the pedestal and lower themselves to working the positions they fill. That being said, I just think it was a dumb general statement.

[Keller]

Originally posted by Arkans
All illegal immigrants need to get the fuck out of this country. They are not welcome.

- Arkans

Unless they provide you with dirt cheap labor in the summer months to give you your dirt cheap produce. Then they need to get the fuck out during the winter.

[Betheny]

I think the quality of life of immigrants would improve vastly if the illegals came in legally. Then they wouldn't have to work digging dirt or scrubbing piss off rest stop walls. Or maybe if they even spoke the language, they could get a better job.

Just a few thoughts as I wait for 5:00 to roll around.

Edited to add: This applies to ALL immigrants, not just those from any certain country or region.

[Edited on 10-27-2004 by Maimara]

[Keller]

Fact is that someone has to dig dirt and scrub piss.

Lucky you that you get to sit around waiting for 5 o'clock to roll around.

[Betheny]

Originally posted by Keller
Fact is that someone has to dig dirt and scrub piss.

Lucky you that you get to sit around waiting for 5 o'clock to roll around.
Nobody here attacked you.

I've done some shit jobs and paid my dues. Luckily for me I worked my way out of it and got to where I am.

PS, don't get so defensive, I never attacked you. Don't jump on me, jackass.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Keller

Originally posted by Arkans
All illegal immigrants need to get the fuck out of this country. They are not welcome.

- Arkans

Unless they provide you with dirt cheap labor in the summer months to give you your dirt cheap produce. Then they need to get the fuck out during the winter.

Thank God a socialist opinion finally showed up, I was waiting for some dissent. Why not provide temporary worker permits for those immigrants who live in Mexico but want to work on farms, but not for those who are already here and broke the law.

Originally posted by Keller

Originally posted by Arkans
All illegal immigrants need to get the fuck out of this country. They are not welcome.

- Arkans

Unless they provide you with dirt cheap labor in the summer months to give you your dirt cheap produce. Then they need to get the fuck out during the winter.

I have no problem with a migrant worker program. It'd be legal with backround checks. I seriously don't want them here, cheap produce or not. Get the fuck out. Summer, fall, spring, winter. I don't care. They're all criminals.

- Arkans

[Betheny]

In a way, I agree.

Do it legally, or don't do it. You know what I mean?

It's a danger to the country, simple as that. Besides Jose getting through the borders, God knows that Abu Al-Jihad can as well. It's something that we need to look at seriously. Not only that, but the programs supporting these criminals are truly hurting Americas social services as well.

- Arkans

[xtc]

Originally posted by Arkans
It's a danger to the country, simple as that. Besides Jose getting through the borders, God knows that Abu Al-Jihad can as well. It's something that we need to look at seriously. Not only that, but the programs supporting these criminals are truly hurting Americas social services as well.

- Arkans

I have no problem with Jose or Abu Al-Jihad coming to America. My problem is with illegal immigrants.

I am assuming that you are talking about terrorists obtaining access to America. I wanted to differentiate between legal immigrants from the Middle East and Mexico and those who come here illegally.

[Weedmage Princess]

This really shouldn't be a "Republican vs Democrat" type debate, or even a conservative vs liberal/socialist type debate. Simple fact is business owners who sit on both sides of the political fence hire the illegal aliens to fill janitor jobs, so on and so forth because they get to pay them below minimum wage, don't have to offer them benefits and give them their salary off the books. They make out like bandits, which is why it's probably going to be a long ass time before you see some sort of labor program like you guys were speaking of earlier come into play. Deep down, a lot of employers are damn happy when the truck fill of illegals pulls up to their shop in the morning.

[HarmNone]

Agreed, Weedie. There is a lot more to this whole mess than first meets the eye. There are gains to be made on both sides, and I agree it will be a long time before any changes are seen. :(

[Nieninque]

So why dont the affluent countries do something about the conditions people have to live in in the countries these people are fleeing.

How do these "Illegal" immigrants get into the Country? They get the bus in from the Park-and-Ride? Or are they shipped in by cartels that get these people to pay them their life savings for promises of better lives, only for many to never make it across or even die along the way. If so, then we need to be doing something about them too.

Immigration laws in the US and the UK are crap. They are endemically racist and take no notice of the situations people live in. People leaving their countries to come to the West are buying into the American Dream (or the UK version) that we push on them, and when they suck it up we are live "No way, get back to your own country, benefit scroungers!" Many people are refugees from war zones and oppresive regimes, fleeing genocide, rape and the like. Do we give them the asylum they are looking for? Do we fuck. We plaster them right across the front page of the Daily Mail saying how they are sponging from society and how they should be put back right on the boat they came on (while people like the Maxwells who conned thousands of pensioners out of millions of pounds claim legal aid and get the state to pay for their defence), we deny them a measly £35 a week.

We dont let them work, even when they do things the right way. They have to live off handouts even when they do want to, so they are either forced to be the spongers we berate them for being, or go underground and work for unscrupulous employers who are happy to pay them peanuts, make them work in shit conditions and bugger the consequences.

Recently in the UK there was a whole load of Chinese "illegal" immigrants who were farming cockles from the seashore, all working under a dodgy cartel importing "illegals" who were killed when a wave or something washed them out to sea and they were drowned.

The criminals in this are the people who take their money from them for false promises. The Governments who expect them to toe the line, yet when they do, give them fuck-all chance of achieving what they want to achieve. The Societies we live in for the whole "this is the best culture in the world" and the whole developed world for ensuring that the countries these people are fleeing will never be free of the debts they owe the West and the civil wars and oppression they have to live under.

[AnticorRifling]

I don't think they should leave. I just think they shouldn't have access to the benefits that we do. No free medical, no welfare, no financial aid, no voting, etc.

You have to understand that they do shit work(not shitty work) for little pay and they turn around and spend what they make. They don't use banks which means they deal in cash, it's good for the small economy i.e. a town because it keeps local businesses busy.

When they become a drain pulling more money out of the system via welfare and medical then they expend, which most do sadly enough, then they become an issue. Currently they are that issue and that is the uproar.

I say let them stay but cut them off from that which makes them want to. Let them work but say goodbye to the proverbial free lunch.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Nieninque
So why dont the affluent countries do something about the conditions people have to live in in the countries these people are fleeing.

How do these "Illegal" immigrants get into the Country? They get the bus in from the Park-and-Ride? Or are they shipped in by cartels that get these people to pay them their life savings for promises of better lives, only for many to never make it across or even die along the way. If so, then we need to be doing something about them too.

Immigration laws in the US and the UK are crap. They are endemically racist and take no notice of the situations people live in. People leaving their countries to come to the West are buying into the American Dream (or the UK version) that we push on them, and when they suck it up we are live "No way, get back to your own country, benefit scroungers!" Many people are refugees from war zones and oppresive regimes, fleeing genocide, rape and the like. Do we give them the asylum they are looking for? Do we fuck. We plaster them right across the front page of the Daily Mail saying how they are sponging from society and how they should be put back right on the boat they came on (while people like the Maxwells who conned thousands of pensioners out of millions of pounds claim legal aid and get the state to pay for their defence), we deny them a measly £35 a week.

We dont let them work, even when they do things the right way. They have to live off handouts even when they do want to, so they are either forced to be the spongers we berate them for being, or go underground and work for unscrupulous employers who are happy to pay them peanuts, make them work in shit conditions and bugger the consequences.

Recently in the UK there was a whole load of Chinese "illegal" immigrants who were farming cockles from the seashore, all working under a dodgy cartel importing "illegals" who were killed when a wave or something washed them out to sea and they were drowned.

The criminals in this are the people who take their money from them for false promises. The Governments who expect them to toe the line, yet when they do, give them fuck-all chance of achieving what they want to achieve. The Societies we live in for the whole "this is the best culture in the world" and the whole developed world for ensuring that the countries these people are fleeing will never be free of the debts they owe the West and the civil wars and oppression they have to live under.

Endemically racist? Granted I don't live in the UK but I have one parent who is a Brit and I have visited 20 odd times in my life. England is almost as small as New York State with a population of what? 50 million? Yet you have a massive South Asian population. How can you say that the immigration policy is racist considering this?

I agree with you that these cartels are a massive problem. In the US they have legislation called RICO to deal with organised crime I assume Britain has the same. Those who traffic in humans must be stopped.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by xtc

Endemically racist? Granted I don't live in the UK but I have one parent who is a Brit and I have visited 20 odd times in my life. England is almost as small as New York State with a population of what? 50 million? Yet you have a massive South Asian population. How can you say that the immigration policy is racist considering this?

I agree with you that these cartels are a massive problem. In the US they have legislation called RICO to deal with organised crime I assume Britain has the same. Those who traffic in humans must be stopped.

We dont have a massive Asian population at all. The minority ethnic population of the UK is around 8-10%

What you may have seen was higher concentrations of Asian people in particular places - especially inner cities, but we are far from having a massive population of anything.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by xtc

Endemically racist? Granted I don't live in the UK but I have one parent who is a Brit and I have visited 20 odd times in my life. England is almost as small as New York State with a population of what? 50 million? Yet you have a massive South Asian population. How can you say that the immigration policy is racist considering this?

I agree with you that these cartels are a massive problem. In the US they have legislation called RICO to deal with organised crime I assume Britain has the same. Those who traffic in humans must be stopped.

We dont have a massive Asian population at all. The minority ethnic population of the UK is around 8-10%

What you may have seen was higher concentrations of Asian people in particular places - especially inner cities, but we are far from having a massive population of anything.

5 million is a pretty big ethnic population for your tiny island.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by xtc
5 million is a pretty big ethnic population for your tiny island.

It's a tiny amount...4%

See the pictures below for the make up of the population (first picture)

In the second picture you can see that the amount of people coming into the country is fairly balanced with the amount of people leaving the country.

[Edited on 27-10-04 by Nieninque]

[Ilvane]

I agree illegal immigrants should not be getting medicaid and getting educated, and having all kinds of rights when they can't even bother to become citizens.

I'm a first generation daughter of an immigrant, so I'm not anti-immigrant, just anti illegals.

I found it funny when George wanted to give those guys little registration cards so they could come in and work across the border..

-A

[Nieninque]

I'm pretty sure that for most people, they would love to become citizens, they are just not able to be. For a number of reasons. Mostly not to do with them

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Ilvane
...give those guys little registration cards so they could come in and work across the border..

-A

They're already working across the border. Better to register them as they come through than to not.

Just as long as they don't use the benefits legal Americans deserve, I don't have a problem with them as long as they are registered and/or legal to work here.

[Edited on 10/27/2004 by CrystalTears]

[Ilvane]

Okay..given the choice..do you pay an illegal 5 bucks an hour, or hire a legal and have to pay minimum wage?

Don't you think that would hurt the American worker?

-A

[CrystalTears]

And you think they're really paying illegal people those $5 an hour?

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Maimara

Originally posted by Parkbandit
You are SUCH a Republican Maimara...

No but I wouldn't mind a little Republican in me.

Haven't you already had one?

[Betheny]

I rarely discuss politics first.

[Disrupture]

The real problem with illegal immigrants is people think they are "taking our jobs" because buisnesses can pay them less than minimum wage.

The real problem is the minimum wage laws.

When you tell a company they have to pay someone who cleans piss in a bathroom 6 dollars an hour just like everyone else, they are going to try to find ways to save money (as the work these people are doing certainly isn't worth 6 dollars an hour) so that they aren't losing money by hiring these people.

So, their best alternative is to hire someone illegally to do the work so that they don't have to pay them minimum wage.

Minimum wage laws are certainly more of a damaging factor to the economy than illegal immigrant workers are. In fact, they enable these very workers to get hired.

[longshot]

There should be like a 90 day grace period for them to leave the country.

After that, there should be bounties on the people who remain.

Yes, the price of a car wash would go up, but I think it'd be worth it.

[Edaarin]

Oh come on. You can't honestly tell me that there's a shortage of places where someone can find work for minimum wage. GET OFF YOUR LAZY FUCKING ASS AND GO GET A JOB AT WAL-MART FOR $8 AN HOUR.

It's NOT HARD to find employment.

EDIT: I agree with Anticor's perspective, by the way. For everyone who thinks that people should do it legally or don't do it at all, I also agree to an extent. I can also sympathize with the would-be immigrants however, having come from a country with ridiculously stringent policies on emigration myself.

It's rarely as simple as newspapers and other media make it out to be. The desperation some people are forced to bear in less-advantaged countries is enough to make anyone's heart weep. I can't blame them for wanting to improve their lives.

[Edited on 10-28-2004 by Edaarin]

[CrystalTears]

The McDonalds around here pays starting $10.00 an hour, especially for the winter months. I can flip burgers for $10 an hour! Actually, I think it's a step up from what I do now, filthy savage, idiot hippies.

[Seran]

Interestingly enough, I would have to agree whole-heartedly with the author of this thread. Nearly 48% of the population of California is hispanic and not even half that percentage speaks English. The result is an unfair burden on any and all people in the customer service field who are now required to speak Spanish due to these individuals not learning. I'm in the collections business, ever wonder just how often I see the names Martinez, Sanchez, Ayala, and Hernandez? Alot more than I should! The kicker is, they don't and often will never pay their bills. Most in my database come receive hospital or doctor treatment and return to Mexico.

Now I've heard alot of people throw out the idea that they're doing the jobs no one else wants. Bull. There are two major picking seasons where I live, and true, they do alot of work and accomplish a great deal. But, what do they do in between the seasons? They live off of welfare and foodstamps for months on end. They make it hard to become a citizen to weed out the undesirables and to make those interested realize that being an American citizen is not a handout. It's something you have to work for! For those who succeed, it is a great benefit and there are many many advantages.

About six years back, the citizens of California voted about 58% to approve a proposition known as 187. This proposition clearly stated that any and all cash benefits, public education, hospitalization and aid would be denied to non-documented immigrents. Terminal individuals would of course be given treatment, but the taxpayers would no longer have to pay for Jose Manuel Ortega Hernedez-Ortiz's perscription glasses or braces. Not six months after it was in effect, a number of clandestine groups went in and had it held up in court. There it has sat until now, indefinately held by some unnamed district court judge. Could it have been upheld? Yes. Was it? No. We were blessed with a true narrow-sighted Democrat governor by the name of Gray Davis, who would not go to court and approve the law we citizens approved.

Learn the language and have enough dignity not to sit around all day making more babies while you sponge off my tax dollars.

/rant

[Edited on 10-28-2004 by Seran]

[Sean]

If I believed that picking fruits and vegetables was the #1 job of illegal immigrants I might be more inclined to believe your position that they do job thats most americans probably feel are beneath them is bull.

[Seran]

More than 75% of the occupations held by undocumented aliens are agriculture related. I was not trying to get across that all that they do is pick grapes an oranges. No, but the majority of the Californian illegal-aliens are migrant field workers. True, some are plumbers, gardners, sweepers, toilet cleaners and stall muckers. However, it is a minority.

[Shari]

Originally posted by Tijay
Not particularly. However I do feel they fill an important job role until Americans are ready to step off the pedestal and lower themselves to working the positions they fill.

That may be true in a few states, but when you live right near the border, many of these illegal immigrants take up jobs that many high-school or perhaps college students would fill. Restraunt cooks, fast food workers, housemaids, etc are quickly taken up by an illegal immigrant because it costs less to pay them. I'd say they also take up a majority of jobs that adults without college degrees need too...but I'd like to tell those people to push themselves to get one and better themselves instead living off wellfare and the like.

I cannot stand that there are illegal immigrants leeching off our country. I do think that they should be safely, and humanely sent back to their own country.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Jesae
I cannot stand that there are illegal immigrants leeching off our country.

Restraunt cooks, fast food workers, housemaids, etc are quickly taken up by an illegal immigrant because it costs less to pay them.

Who are the leeches here? The people trying to make a better life for themselves, albeit by violating immigration laws or the companies exploting them so they can make more money?

Illegal immigrants are a problem. But so are the ones who use them.

Raven

[Seran]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Who are the leeches here? The people trying to make a better life for themselves, albeit by violating immigration laws or the companies exploting them so they can make more money?


Read the reports at cis.org and the undocumented alien stadies done by Berkeley and Stanford. They both say the same thing, it is the immigrants themselves that pose the problem to other immigrints. There is such a huge influx of undocumented aliens wanting work that they'll do the work for increasingly lower wages. The supply is huge, the demand is not growing to match it. End result; the same amount of jobs that're paying less due to a staggering amount of willing laborers.

Read the Grapes of Wrath, it'll give you the same example, only this involves the dust bowlers during the Great Depression.

Raven, the majority of the angst joe taxpayer experiences is due to the job displacement for relatively low-skilled, but infrequent jobs. Sure your average blue collar Anglo or African American could pull down 10-13 an hour as a school janitor with experience. But, as that employer, would you not see the two migrant individuals you could pay 5.75 (6.75 here) to do the same job? Two for the price of one!

No one will dispute farm-labor isn't a highly sought after job for young high schoolers or middle aged adults. The problem simply boils down to the vast number of willing illegal-aliens wanting the work for little pay that are forced to collect state-aid as soon as the picking season ends.

[Ravenstorm]

Note how I said that illegal immigrants were a problem. But the onus also lies upon those willing to exploit them.

I'm not versed in anything concerning immigration. Is it illegal to hire illegal immigrants? If not, perhaps it should be. It should be easy enough to tell if you're an employer: no social security number or no work visa. Crack down on them and fine them enough to make it even less profitable to use illegal immigrants than not.

But as I said, this is not my field. I do think though that it's a complicated issue and the solution is not as simple as 'send them all packing'.

Raven

[Nieninque]

What Raven said.

I cant believe people are coming down on "illegal" immigrants for trying to better themselves and provide for their families, albeit outside of immigration laws, and citing the fact that employers will pay them less money that Citizens who would otherwise be doing that job.

The employers are the ones who are the problem. If there was no black market in labour, the "illegal" immigrants wouldnt be able to work, would have to do things kosher, thereby problem solved.

If some greedy bastard wants to flout employment law by paying someone s/he shouldnt be employing, at a rate which is (a) below the minimum wage and, (b) at a rate that no citizen will be able to work, then it is they that is the problem, not the poor sap that is taking it because it is anything at all which is better than the nothing they would be getting.

Try looking further than the symptom of the problem and look at the cause instead.

Big problem with illegals here on Ft Huachuca, they catch between 100-200 a day coming across the desert. Problem with it though is that a lot of them are OTM (Other Than Mexican) they had a case of 20 or so checyans<sp?> a few months back that tried to make their way across.
Personally I think we need to militarize the borders, now that they are done restructuring the Active Army and the National Guards will be back where they belong, dealing with the homeland more than overseas we will have the manpower to do it right. The question is if we will do just that. I doubt it sadly.

[Seran]

Part of the reason why fresh fruit and vegetables are so cheap is the savings past on to consumers by lower labor cost. Replace the individuals not legally entitled to work, and I gaurantee you'll see at least a 20-25% increase in vegetables. For every five illegal farm worker, there is two documented immigrants wanting the same job. I know it is hard to imagine for some folks not living in vastly agricultural areas, but there are HORDES arriving every april and september in overcrowded cars and vans.

Look at the facts, dozens of universities and independent agencies have studied the workforce problem and concluded it is the availability of workers that drives down the competitive wage rates. The fact is, the 2.25-2.75 they make an hour is still greatly over that which they make back in Mexico. You call it so wrong that a temporary employee should come to our country illegally and make three times what he would make doing the same job back home? Look at your facts again and come back at me. Those individuals who walk the red tape and get their green cards, or even citizenship are legally entitled to make 6.75 an hour. For perhaps six months of their lives learning passable English and studying the constitution, they are given the right to make over five times they'd make back home.

Is that such a bad turnover, considering you or I could spend forty thousand on a college degree and make perhaps two times what we did before for 2-4 years of our lives.

[AnticorRifling]

Except the minimum wage isn't 6.75 so when they become citizens they aren't making that and in your own post you stated for every 2 legal immigrants there are 5 working. Why would someone hire the legal one and be forced to pay 2x when illegals are in such ready supply? Becoming a citizen doesn't mean they will make shit. It allows them the same rights I have but ohh wait, the illegals have those to sans the right to vote...

[Xcalibur]

How many illegal immigrants there is, in the us, around?

[xtc]

Originally posted by Ilvane
I agree illegal immigrants should not be getting medicaid and getting educated, and having all kinds of rights when they can't even bother to become citizens.

I'm a first generation daughter of an immigrant, so I'm not anti-immigrant, just anti illegals.

I found it funny when George wanted to give those guys little registration cards so they could come in and work across the border..

-A

Kerry wants to give them more

[DeV]

Probably because they are already here and as Raven stated above, it's a challenging and complicated process. Sending them packing sounds good on paper but that would no doubt require even more money and resources being spent locating and extracting illegals in every state.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Seran
Part of the reason why fresh fruit and vegetables are so cheap is the savings past on to consumers by lower labor cost. Replace the individuals not legally entitled to work, and I gaurantee you'll see at least a 20-25% increase in vegetables. For every five illegal farm worker, there is two documented immigrants wanting the same job. I know it is hard to imagine for some folks not living in vastly agricultural areas, but there are HORDES arriving every april and september in overcrowded cars and vans.

Look at the facts, dozens of universities and independent agencies have studied the workforce problem and concluded it is the availability of workers that drives down the competitive wage rates. The fact is, the 2.25-2.75 they make an hour is still greatly over that which they make back in Mexico. You call it so wrong that a temporary employee should come to our country illegally and make three times what he would make doing the same job back home? Look at your facts again and come back at me. Those individuals who walk the red tape and get their green cards, or even citizenship are legally entitled to make 6.75 an hour. For perhaps six months of their lives learning passable English and studying the constitution, they are given the right to make over five times they'd make back home.

Is that such a bad turnover, considering you or I could spend forty thousand on a college degree and make perhaps two times what we did before for 2-4 years of our lives.

Temporary worker cards for 6 mos for work in the agricultural industry. State there is no minimum wage for farm work or make it 2.50 per hour in the farm industry. That way you can keep produce cost low, the immigrants can work here for 6 mos and make more then they would back home and we can track them to make sure they leave once there 6 mos is up.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Nieninque
What Raven said.

I cant believe people are coming down on "illegal" immigrants for trying to better themselves and provide for their families, albeit outside of immigration laws, and citing the fact that employers will pay them less money that Citizens who would otherwise be doing that job.

The employers are the ones who are the problem. If there was no black market in labour, the "illegal" immigrants wouldnt be able to work, would have to do things kosher, thereby problem solved.

If some greedy bastard wants to flout employment law by paying someone s/he shouldnt be employing, at a rate which is (a) below the minimum wage and, (b) at a rate that no citizen will be able to work, then it is they that is the problem, not the poor sap that is taking it because it is anything at all which is better than the nothing they would be getting.

Try looking further than the symptom of the problem and look at the cause instead.

Another good argument for eliminating the minimum wage. Thanks for the insight.

[Shari]

Let me add something that I should have...

I agree, it would cost a shitload of money (probably more than we are spending now) to ship these people back to their own country.

HOWEVER, I also agree that companies should be heavily fined if caught using illegal immigrants. I don't think there are any repercussions for those that use them now, save for a slap on the wrist.

So if these companies were to be fined, we could use that money to ship them back.

This is a very simplified version, as I'm sure a lot more would have to go into this, but does anyone see what I'm getting at?

I wasn't saying just kick them out on their asses without the companies who have employed them going scott-free. I believe they should be punished too.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Imigrants don't bother me. People who don't work and mooch off the government bother me. People who shoot out kid after kid after kid and can't afford to feed them, bother me. People coming here because it's a better life for them? We should encourage that. That inspires patriotism.

I say open the borders to all who want to come, understanding they have to abid by the US rules and regulations.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
Imigrants don't bother me. People who don't work and mooch off the government bother me. People who shoot out kid after kid after kid and can't afford to feed them, bother me. People coming here because it's a better life for them? We should encourage that. That inspires patriotism.

I say open the borders to all who want to come, understanding they have to abid by the US rules and regulations.

:clap:

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by xtc

Another good argument for eliminating the minimum wage. Thanks for the insight.

Erm...the argument was for getting rid of greedy bastards.

Getting rid of the minimum wage would do nothing to solve the immigration problem, would probably serve to make the situations of Nationals and immigrants much much worse. Nationals would be paid less, immigrants would still come through the borders, would still be employed by the same greedy bastards, but would be paid even less by aforementioned greedy bastards.

If you think that will do anything but fuck up your economy, you are sadly mistaken.

[Disrupture]

Uh, the "greedy bastards" are the reason the American system works in the first place. If you eliminate the people providing jobs, where exactly are people going to get jobs?

It's proven economic fact that if you raise the minimum wage, unemployment rises. The only thing getting rid of minumum wage would do is lower unemployment AND get rid of the illegal immigrant problem, as now companies could pay people what they are WORTH, not what the government tells them to. Sure, nationals would have to take jobs getting paid less, but I'm sure those nationals who are losing their jobs to immigrants would rather work for less money than not work at all.

And you can't tell me that some of the people making minumum wage out there are really actually worth that.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by xtc

Another good argument for eliminating the minimum wage. Thanks for the insight.

Erm...the argument was for getting rid of greedy bastards.

Getting rid of the minimum wage would do nothing to solve the immigration problem, would probably serve to make the situations of Nationals and immigrants much much worse. Nationals would be paid less, immigrants would still come through the borders, would still be employed by the same greedy bastards, but would be paid even less by aforementioned greedy bastards.

If you think that will do anything but fuck up your economy, you are sadly mistaken.


see my above post for temprary worker permits

[Edited on 10-28-2004 by xtc]

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Disrupture
Uh, the "greedy bastards" are the reason the American system works in the first place. If you eliminate the people providing jobs, where exactly are people going to get jobs?

It's proven economic fact that if you raise the minimum wage, unemployment rises.

Actually, thats a pile of shit.
That was one of the arguments used against bringing in a minimum wage in the UK.

Happily it failed and was seen to be false anyways, as it didnt affect rates of employment one bit.


The only thing getting rid of minumum wage would do is lower unemployment AND get rid of the illegal immigrant problem, as now companies could pay people what they are WORTH,


Thats laughable.

Companies with no minimum wage will be paying peanuts, people will have less income and therefore less to spend, putting less money back into the economy and making less jobs.

If someone whose purpose in owning a company has an aim of making money, they want maximum profit for minimum outlay.

All abolishing minimum wages will do is make the workers poorer while the owners will get richer.

Smart world you wanna live in.


And you can't tell me that some of the people making minumum wage out there are really actually worth that.

I dont believe anyone that is working deserves less than the minimum wage.

[Edited on 28-10-04 by Nieninque]

[xtc]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Disrupture
Uh, the "greedy bastards" are the reason the American system works in the first place. If you eliminate the people providing jobs, where exactly are people going to get jobs?

It's proven economic fact that if you raise the minimum wage, unemployment rises.

Actually, thats a pile of shit.
That was one of the arguments used against bringing in a minimum wage in the UK.

Happily it failed and was seen to be false anyways, as it didnt affect rates of employment one bit.





Thats laughable.

Companies with no minimum wage will be paying peanuts, people will have less income and therefore less to spend, putting less money back into the economy and making less jobs.

If someone whose purpose in owning a company has an aim of making money, they want maximum profit for minimum outlay.

All abolishing minimum wages will do is make the workers poorer while the owners will get richer.

Smart world you wanna live in.
[quote]
And you can't tell me that some of the people making minumum wage out there are really actually worth that.

I dont believe anyone that is working deserves less than the minimum wage.

Raising the minimum wage raises inflation. In a strong economy raising the minimum wage may not increase inflation but it will increase the price of goods sold. Also new hiring will be reduced. In a poor/fair economy raising the minimum wage will eliminate jobs and increase the price of goods and services.I posted several posts proving this before.

In certain industries we have a lower minimum wage i.e. waiters because of tips. In the USA eliminate the minimum wage for farm work only. Give 6 month temporary worker permits to migrant workers who work the farms. Problem solved.

Migrant workers can work in the US legally and earn more then in their own country. Cost of produce doesn't rise and the government has a system to track these workers to insure they go home at the end of 6 mos and they can return again next year.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Jesae
but when you live right near the border, many of these illegal immigrants take up jobs that many high-school or perhaps college students would fill.So it's Canada's fault it took me so long to find a job. Innnnnteresting. :axe:
Originally posted by Nieninque
I cant believe people are coming down on "illegal" immigrants for trying to better themselves and provide for their familiesI suppose you wouldn't mind if some French guy stole everything you owned. Hey, he's trying to provide for his family! It doesn't matter that he's breaking the law!

Takes two to tango.

Do you mean Chechnyans, Dave? That's kind of surprising.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
I suppose you wouldn't mind if some French guy stole everything you owned. Hey, he's trying to provide for his family! It doesn't matter that he's breaking the law!

Takes two to tango.

Do you mean Chechnyans, Dave? That's kind of surprising.

If you cant see the difference between working for a wage and stealing, then there really is no point in discussion anything with you.

Nice straw argument.

[xtc]

[quote]Originally posted by Latrinsorm

[/]So it's Canada's fault it took me so long to find a job. Innnnnteresting. :axe:[quote]

Yes Canadians are clamoring at the border trying to get into the USA......not

yes I knew you were joking

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Nieninque
If you cant see the difference between working for a wage and stealing, then there really is no point in discussion anything with you.There's a big difference between working for a wage and stealing. There's not much of a difference between breaking the law while working for a wage and stealing, especially if that breaking the law entails taking a job from someone else.

Let's compare the two:

Illegal immigrant gets a job from a scumbag business. He gets money, and he breaks the law. Someone else could have gotten that money, namely a legal immigrant or citizen.

Some French guy snatches your purse (or whatever it is you carry your money in). He gets money, and he breaks the law. Someone else had that money, namely you.

Is there a difference? Yes. A slight difference: as unemployment decreases, it becomes less likely that there is someone else that the illegal immigrant is taking a job from. We've got plenty of unemployed people over here, how about you?

[DeV]

We've got plenty of unemployed lazy people over here who wouldn't take a job an illegal is being paid to do if their life depended on it. That's also a problem.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
Imigrants don't bother me. People who don't work and mooch off the government bother me. People who shoot out kid after kid after kid and can't afford to feed them, bother me. People coming here because it's a better life for them? We should encourage that. That inspires patriotism.

I say open the borders to all who want to come, understanding they have to abid by the US rules and regulations.

You want a better life, get in line. The legal line. What about the people who are trying to get into the country legally? Every illegal immigrant takes a spot away from someone who is trying get into the country legally. Who will make a good citizen? The person who is trying to get into the USA legally, not the person whose first act in America was commiting a crime.

Open the borders? Allow everyone in, are you nuts? Does the word sustainability mean anything to you.

Damn commies

[Tsa`ah]

I don't know if I should be offended by the unemployment remark or not.

Unemployment is a very small cost to the tax payer. The bulk of unemployment is paid as employment insurance by anyone that has employees, unless I'm missing a number that would make an employer exempt from such premiums.

I think Weedie pointed it out first and I've only skimmed the rest of the posts.

Employers that employ illegals are most likely the root source of the problem. Unfortunately the government is more concerned with temporarily housing those caught (incarceration) and then shipping them back home. The employers sometimes receive fines, sometimes not. Either way, the money saved on wages far outweighs the slap on the wrist.

The chronically unemployed, the life time welfare recipient, the convicted felons in medium or light security prisons, and a number of other groups, should be the people taking on these jobs.

I'm not talking about the single moms or the physically incapable; I'm talking about the pros that work the systems. They should be offered a fair wage and public health care coverage for the work they do, not for sitting on their asses.

Our government is more concerned with justifying expense than it is justifying action or requiring people to be accountable for their own lives.

[DeV]

No offense intended Tsa'ah. Someone in your position who has the education and experience would be over-qualified for many of the positions these illegals are filling. My retort was actually in regards to Latrinsorm's analogy. There have been some good points made on either side however I have mixed feelings on the subject and feel that companies hiring illegals are at the root of the problem. But then again, they are hiring the illegals because no one else wants to do these jobs.

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Jesae
but when you live right near the border, many of these illegal immigrants take up jobs that many high-school or perhaps college students would fill.So it's Canada's fault it took me so long to find a job. Innnnnteresting. :axe:
Originally posted by Nieninque
I cant believe people are coming down on "illegal" immigrants for trying to better themselves and provide for their familiesI suppose you wouldn't mind if some French guy stole everything you owned. Hey, he's trying to provide for his family! It doesn't matter that he's breaking the law!

Takes two to tango.

Do you mean Chechnyans, Dave? That's kind of surprising.

yes, thats what I ment, mind my spelling mistake and my lazyness to go look back into my notes about it. Our largest problems right now are not mexican immigrants but OTM's, I could care less about mexican immigrants except for the fact that they take a shit load of money away from me because my tax money goes to supplement them so they can live the american life.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
But then again, they are hiring the illegals because no one else wants to do these jobs.

This isn't entirely correct. They are hired because they will do the job cheaper and without complaints.

An illegal without papers will work for sub-minimum wages.

An employer faced with hiring Joe, Jim, and James, all high school students, will have to pay at least a training wage for 90 days and then go to minimum wage. Not to mention he will have to claim them as employees to his insurance company and pay matching social security deductions. The employer forgoes the above costs and pays Jose 3-4 dollars an hour to cover the shifts of the three HS students and not have to worry about insurance premiums or matching contributions to social security.

A larger corporation will turn a blind eye to shifty looking papers and give Sam Johnson, the Hispanic guy who can't speak English, a job in the factory making minimum wage. Sam will work along side people that make 15 dollars an hour, but Sam won't complain. The employer hires 10-20 more like sam and is saving.

Not all jobs taken by illegals are jobs that no one else wants. But those jobs could be easily filled with revisions to how welfare, disability, and unemployment are handled.

[Edited on 10-28-2004 by Tsa`ah]

[Weedmage Princess]

Raven, Edaarin and SHM made the best arguments here. You can't knock people for coming here and wanting a better life. Unless you're a full blooded Native American, you have a family member that did the same thing and it's the reason you're here today. Either that or you actually did it yourself..so please think about that before getting on your high horse and looking down at others who aren't citizens just yet like some of you are.

Like Edaarin pointed out, it isn't as easy as waking up, deciding you want to leave the country you're from and become an American. You can't just save your pennies, hop on a plane, fill out some papers, take a test and become a citizen.

Once they get here, though, they should be making every effort they can to do the right thing. There are some who do. They come over, work hard, get their affairs in order then do become citizens. These people should be applauded. Those who don't, those who mooch off the system with no intentions of doing anything other than living ghetto fabulous, taking resources away from those of us who shell out thousands upon thousands of tax dollars each year...yeah. But again, you have to look to the people creating the problem. Yes, the blame falls on the employers, not minimum wages, not anyone else. If there weren't people looking to pay some illegal alien $2 an hour off the books so they didn't have to pay whatever applicable taxes they'd otherwise pay, they wouldn't be supporting that system.

As far as the people making the argument against minimum wages, I guess you're against unions too, eh? Tell me, would you be willing, as a tax paying American citizen, to take a job that wouldn't even allow you to survive with today's cost of living? Cause if there were no minimum wage, that's more than likely what would happen.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
Raven, Edaarin and SHM made the best arguments here. You can't knock people for coming here and wanting a better life. Unless you're a full blooded Native American, you have a family member that did the same thing and it's the reason you're here today. Either that or you actually did it yourself..so please think about that before getting on your high horse and looking down at others who aren't citizens just yet like some of you are.

Like Edaarin pointed out, it isn't as easy as waking up, deciding you want to leave the country you're from and become an American. You can't just save your pennies, hop on a plane, fill out some papers, take a test and become a citizen.

Once they get here, though, they should be making every effort they can to do the right thing. There are some who do. They come over, work hard, get their affairs in order then do become citizens. These people should be applauded. Those who don't, those who mooch off the system with no intentions of doing anything other than living ghetto fabulous, taking resources away from those of us who shell out thousands upon thousands of tax dollars each year...yeah. But again, you have to look to the people creating the problem. Yes, the blame falls on the employers, not minimum wages, not anyone else. If there weren't people looking to pay some illegal alien $2 an hour off the books so they didn't have to pay whatever applicable taxes they'd otherwise pay, they wouldn't be supporting that system.

As far as the people making the argument against minimum wages, I guess you're against unions too, eh? Tell me, would you be willing, as a tax paying American citizen, to take a job that wouldn't even allow you to survive with today's cost of living? Cause if there were no minimum wage, that's more than likely what would happen.


There is a difference between immigrants who wait in line, make sure they meet the requirements and come to America legally and those who sneak across the border in the night. The first act of the illegal immigrant is a criminal one by definition.

I think you do legal immigrants a massive disservice by rewarding the illegal ones. What message does that send to potential immigrants around the round who want to come to America? Fuck the legal process just hope a plane or sneak across a field to come to America.

[Latrinsorm]

Nm. Weedie's always right. :)

[Edited on 10-29-2004 by Latrinsorm]

[Edaarin]

I was lucky enough to have had a father who was offered the chance to study in the United States, and then again offered a job in the States. Getting the rest of the family (myself, my brother, my sister and cousins) was still damn near impossible for my mom, but somehow she managed it (after getting caught the first time and being sent to Indonesia). Because it isn't always that easy to leave the country you're trying to emigrate from.

Anyway...with Bush in the White House, with John Ashcroft in any position of influence...it's not getting any easier to sort through the paper trail necessary to come here legally. I don't believe that you can morally reject an application to immigrate to the States, save for a very few extenuating circumstances (suspected terrorism [NOT JUST BASED ON SKIN COLOR, but on actual EVIDENCE], ex-convicts, and so forth). There's so much bureaucratic filler in the process it can easily take years for people in certain countries that it gets frustrating.

Then again, Mexico isn't one of those countries...

[Weedmage Princess]

Latrin, I said "you can't knock people for wanting to come here and have a better life" ...then followed with "you have family members who did the same thing" to mean you had family members who wanted a better life, hence came to this country. I went on to mention how it's not as easy to leave some countries versus others, which is how I got to the illegal alien issue.

[Weedmage Princess]

That's true XTC, about rewarding illegal ones not being fair to those who do it legally. That's why I feel a re-write of the policy regarding immigration and the like along the lines of that others suggested earlier in this thread would be beneficial. Cut out the middle man (other countries with leaders who frown upon immigrating to this country) and deal with the people one on one. Set up labor programs and the like. However, it won't happen for a long time. Why? T.J. Moneybags and other employers like him will have to start paying workers atleast minimum wage AND on the books. They don't want that.

[Edaarin]

Anyway, I think that the government SHOULD stop providing government aid to illegal immigrants. I also think they should focus on reforming welfare and social security, but what are the odds of either of those happening?

"BITCH STOP FUCKING."

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I still say just open the fucking gates and let the whole world in. What good is being the best place to live in the civilized world if its just you and some blue blood (extreme exageration).

I used to wonder what I'd be like if I was born in another country, or born black, or born handicapped or whatever. We should be happy for what we have and want to share it, not hoard it inside armed walls.

[Seran]

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
Yes, the blame falls on the employers, not minimum wages, not anyone else. If there weren't people looking to pay some illegal alien $2 an hour off the books so they didn't have to pay whatever applicable taxes they'd otherwise pay, they wouldn't be supporting that system.


You're faulting an employer for wanting to offer less hourly compensation to individuals who havn't earned the right of a minimum wage. It's common sense! If you are looking to buy a gallon of milk and are presented with buying one gallon for 3.95, or getting two for 5.50, which are you going to buy?

Look at it this way, by being able to hire cheaper labor, the farmers are in turn able to offer you cheaper prices at the market. Would you prefer to pay six dollars per bag of potatoes? These individuals are offered a much higher rate of pay to do the same work here, thus it's only natural they wish to work here. My problem isn't with the people getting work visa's to come here, it is with those who employ "coyotes" to illegally cross the border and live off the state welfare system.

Also, Tsa'ah, here in California, the minimum wage is 6.75 due to a higher cost of living.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Seran
You're faulting an employer for wanting to offer less hourly compensation to individuals who havn't earned the right of a minimum wage. It's common sense! If you are looking to buy a gallon of milk and are presented with buying one gallon for 3.95, or getting two for 5.50, which are you going to buy?

Look at it this way, by being able to hire cheaper labor, the farmers are in turn able to offer you cheaper prices at the market. Would you prefer to pay six dollars per bag of potatoes? These individuals are offered a much higher rate of pay to do the same work here, thus it's only natural they wish to work here. My problem isn't with the people getting work visa's to come here, it is with those who employ "coyotes" to illegally cross the border and live off the state welfare system.

Also, Tsa'ah, here in California, the minimum wage is 6.75 due to a higher cost of living.

I don't recall ever quoting a dollar amount in reference to minimum wage, but good to know. I think m-w in IL is about the same.

I think you need to re-asses the farmer analogy however. Perhaps in CA, it works like that. The smaller farmer can't afford to hire extra labor as it is, so you can nix them from the equation.

You're trying to turn the debate around by arguing the price of consumer goods. Farmers do not determine the price of perishable goods, the market does. The farmer pretty much gambles between when to harvest and when to sell. The price you pay at the grocery store is driven by season, demand, availability and a number of other economic factors such as shipping, processing, and storage.

A farmer who says you'll pay this or I won't sell will have his farm up on auction come before spring. The use of illegals is a means of cost saving and profit raising. It has very little impact on the market and price.

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
I still say just open the fucking gates and let the whole world in. What good is being the best place to live in the civilized world if its just you and some blue blood (extreme exageration).

I used to wonder what I'd be like if I was born in another country, or born black, or born handicapped or whatever. We should be happy for what we have and want to share it, not hoard it inside armed walls.

That mentality is what lead to the terrorism problem we have in this country today. We had a open gate for people like Izam, Zawahiri, Atef, Ruham. It was the free passes into our country that allowed 9/11 to happen. It is still far to easy.

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
[quote]

I don't recall ever quoting a dollar amount in reference to minimum wage, but good to know. I think m-w in IL is about the same.


$5.15 in IL or whatever the current national minimum wage is.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

That "mentality" is what made America what it is today, you are right.

[Tsa`ah]

I think it was more along the lines of security and intelligence failure.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Dave
$5.15 in IL or whatever the current national minimum wage is.

Eh, no.

$5.50 is the minimum wage, but we have other laws in IL that affect other wages.

You may want to look into the Prevailing Wage Act, and Illinois Procurement Code. Those are things for another discussion however.

I stand corrected its $5.50 :)

[Arshwikk]

Illegals are efficient and deadly! Picture this: A truck pulls up to a house under construction, 15 illegals roll out and gang bang it in 16 straight hours...bossman knows their illegal, but he's making a killing paying them 1/2 what a legal would make, plus they never even heard of overtime. Bossman gets rich, illegals send their paltry American salary home to where it's worth 10x more in terms of standard of living, thereby supporting a whole village there.

Winners: Bossman, a village somewhere outside the US

Losers: 15 legal American citizens who can't buy a happy meal in the country they were born in for what the illegals just fed a village for the night.

Solution: None...if all the world were equal, we'd all be poor and inspirationless. Capitalism works because of exploitaion, and we tolerate it because anyone can make the it to the top...anyone. We feed our hungry with dreams.

[Goldenranger]

Trying to take this topic to a new level of political/ theoretical evaluation.

IF you are an advocate of free trade and believe in all of its benefits and ideological components like most Republicans (and a lot of Democrats) do you must realize that we are living in a system that is not free trade based, even with NAFTA.

One must allow the free movement of labor across national borders from a true free trade environment. To say that they are stealing jobs from Americans is flawed logic on two different levels.

1) This first level is on the free trade level and that the theory of Capitalism doesn't recognize national borders. Whoever will work for the job for what amount of money is offered is the fair wage for the job. If Americans won't work for that paltry wage and live in two bedroom apts with 10 other people then that is their fault for not engaging and competiting with other labor.

2) This claim is on the theoretical level asking why an American is better than a Mexican/Honduran/Haitian etc... Nationalism is a devisive force that arbitrarily designates illusory lines. There are no "Americans" or "Mexicans" when considered from a standpoint of non-Nationalism and please try to justify either in practical (which is easy) terms or theoretical terms (MUCH harder) why an American is superior to an undocumented migrant from another state for a job.

Hopeful for Reply

Player of Goldenranger

[Keller]

In complete agreence on the idea of a global labor market, Golden. It's inevitable whether we like it or not. Now explain why they deserve health care.

[Nieninque]

Health care is a right not a privelidge

[HarmNone]

Just to throw a spanner in the works, what happens if one of these migrant workers gets sick and has no health care? Do we just let that worker die? Do we let them spread a contagious disease? Do we put them on a plane home...with a contagious disease? Do we let them suffer, ill and without sufficient funds to pay for the treatment they need?

[Edited on 10-29-2004 by HarmNone]

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Nieninque
Health care is a right not a privelidge

For whom? It's a right of the person that is a legal citizen of the country providing it because he or she is putting back towards the system via taxes thus keeping it alive. It's a privelidge to the illegal that drains it by taking advantage of it but returning nothing. Much like a plaque of locus sweeping in usurping that which they can and moving on when all items or services of worth have been drained or exhausted.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by AnticorRifling

Originally posted by Nieninque
Health care is a right not a privelidge

For whom? It's a right of the person that is a legal citizen of the country providing it because he or she is putting back towards the system via taxes thus keeping it alive. It's a privelidge to the illegal that drains it by taking advantage of it but returning nothing. Much like a plaque of locus sweeping in usurping that which they can and moving on when all items or services of worth have been drained or exhausted.

Maybe I value human life and health before money

:shrug:

[Back]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by AnticorRifling

Originally posted by Nieninque
Health care is a right not a privelidge

For whom? It's a right of the person that is a legal citizen of the country providing it because he or she is putting back towards the system via taxes thus keeping it alive. It's a privelidge to the illegal that drains it by taking advantage of it but returning nothing. Much like a plaque of locus sweeping in usurping that which they can and moving on when all items or services of worth have been drained or exhausted.

Maybe I value human life and health before money

:shrug:

People before profits. Welcome to the Communist Party. :2beers:

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Nieninque
Maybe I value human life and health before moneyIt's pretty obvious that you don't.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by AnticorRifling

Originally posted by Nieninque
Health care is a right not a privelidge

For whom? It's a right of the person that is a legal citizen of the country providing it because he or she is putting back towards the system via taxes thus keeping it alive. It's a privelidge to the illegal that drains it by taking advantage of it but returning nothing. Much like a plaque of locus sweeping in usurping that which they can and moving on when all items or services of worth have been drained or exhausted.

Maybe I value human life and health before money

:shrug:

National Health is a joke

[xtc]

Originally posted by Goldenranger
Trying to take this topic to a new level of political/ theoretical evaluation.

IF you are an advocate of free trade and believe in all of its benefits and ideological components like most Republicans (and a lot of Democrats) do you must realize that we are living in a system that is not free trade based, even with NAFTA.

One must allow the free movement of labor across national borders from a true free trade environment. To say that they are stealing jobs from Americans is flawed logic on two different levels.

1) This first level is on the free trade level and that the theory of Capitalism doesn't recognize national borders. Whoever will work for the job for what amount of money is offered is the fair wage for the job. If Americans won't work for that paltry wage and live in two bedroom apts with 10 other people then that is their fault for not engaging and competiting with other labor.

2) This claim is on the theoretical level asking why an American is better than a Mexican/Honduran/Haitian etc... Nationalism is a devisive force that arbitrarily designates illusory lines. There are no "Americans" or "Mexicans" when considered from a standpoint of non-Nationalism and please try to justify either in practical (which is easy) terms or theoretical terms (MUCH harder) why an American is superior to an undocumented migrant from another state for a job.

Hopeful for Reply

Player of Goldenranger

Raaawwrrrrr this one had me rolling in the aisles with laughter.

1. Free trade and Capitalism does recognise national borders.

2. Illegal immigrant not undocumented worker. Why is a legal American superior for a job then a illegal worker? Well

A. The American is legal. By hiring him you don't have the IRS, INS down your back.

B. The illegal hasn't passed any sort of health testing to come to America. He could carry any disease which could be passed on to your entire staff.

C. The American has benefitted from the American education system. The illegal hasn't. What is the illegal's language skill? American production is efficient when compared to many other nations, especially Mexico.


Damn commies