Lores vs. Spell Aiming

[Maerit]

I've been debating for a while until they finish HSN and drop the free fixskills on Sorcerers - what is more useful, extra lore training or spell aiming?

As it stands right now, Lores for Sorcerers are pretty damn nice. I definitely want to switch my 52 demonology ranks out for Necromancy at this point. However, I am considering 10 in each elemental lore to help utilize 710 for difficult-to-ward critters and increase the crit threshold for 719.

Spell Aiming only helps me with 708 and 720 presently as I have found limited value in using 713 and the new 705 bolt seems to do less damage than a channeled 705. I rarely hunt with focused implosion because i prefer to treasure hunt, and rarely find I need 708 when 711 locks things down pretty handily.

For un-capped character in the mid 60s, does it seem like the benefit of lores out-weighs the benefits of Spell Aim?

[subzero]

Unless you're under level 30 or so or you uphunt, don't train in skills for Maelstrom. At higher levels it's too risky to just let 710 try and do it's thing, plus critters will run off and you've got to chase them down or lose the maelstrom. If you have trouble warding them, you need to figure out a better plan or find something else to hunt. Uphunting with maelstrom... dodge, whiff, dodge, cool breeze, etc. You're not going to hit things with it any better than CS spells.

To say that spell aiming 'only' helps with 708 (and 720) makes me believe you underestimate the value of being able to blow a leg off a charging critter or an arm off of a caster. Even those pesky ethereal creatures can be neutered with 704 + 708. Training in spell aiming for 708 alone is well worth the points in my book. As an added bonus you get an iWin button (720), access to bolts (potentially including web bolt and use of wizard wands if you wanted), and you can toy around with 710 (you don't need lores for this at all).

My training always includes lores and spell aiming. I don't even view it as a choice; the choice is in which lores you choose.

[Fallen]

Even as a mutant build (Brawl/Shield) I still made sure to 2x Spell Aim. Implosion is the main reason, but as Subzero stated Limb Disruption is a close second. Beyond that, bolting is a fun change of pace and is situationally useful. Lores are nice, but at .5x you'll be fine until later in life when you have the points.

[Whirlin]

I wouldn't invest much more than 1x lores... it's just kind of expensive, especially if you choose to do spell aiming as well.

I'd actually argue that spell aiming is BETTER for mutant builds than a pure build, as implosion doesn't use CS, and you don't need to worry about mana reserves as much. Not to say spell aiming is good/bad... I'd just say that it's better for a mutant build.

[velderan]

Good question. I literally just fixskilled OUT of spell aim entirely last night to pick up SMC to 1x, and Necro lore to 1x and a few more sorc ranks. Now I wasn't a full 2x in it and I was close to getting it back to a full 2x, but felt the full 1x in those skills was a better investment for points. I'll pick it back up again at 202, but with 709 as a disabler, 708 a limb is great and all, but if you can't destroy something by the time 709 wears off you are taking too long to kill stuff.

[Malisai]

As a sorcerer, while leveling, you only need a couple spells to hunt.

702 - to kill things with
703 - to prevent casters from casting
704 - to phase non corp
708 - to remove the right arm or leg

Thats it. 705 doesnt provide enough of a return to make it worth using over 702, unless you want the messaging.

None of those spells requires lores, and 708 needs SA.

Having demon lore while leveling allows you to phase boxes with 704, which is very useful. Mana shouldnt be an issue at this point.

708 is a wonderful spell. Things cannot attack or cast without a right arm. Creatures that charge cannot charge without a leg.

However I am interested why you are not able to 1x lores and 2x SA at the same time? Going 2.5x spells is more than enough, and leaves plenty of points to train all your other magical skills just fine.

[Maerit]

However I am interested why you are not able to 1x lores and 2x SA at the same time? Going 2.5x spells is more than enough, and leaves plenty of points to train all your other magical skills just fine.

Well, I could have 2.5x spells and 1x in Necro lore, but I won't have any room for Elemental Lores or Demon lores.

I've been really curious to see how much different 10 ranks in E-lores will be for 719 (my primary hunting spell). How much more frequently it will crit kill when right now I only crit kill on the first cast around 35-50% of the time (when used against magical critters - I don't use it on physical types). I've recently been using 709 and 710 in conjunction to handle swarms, and it's been working very nicely.

The 52 ranks of demon lore I have currently is nice for phase, cloak, and keeping failures from happening with 740 (which I've never experienced to date).

I was hoping to try out 1.5x sorcerer lores with 40 ranks of elemental lores.

I guess my current hunting grounds I replace 708 with 709, and use 711 or out-right kill targets with 719 that I've been finding spell aiming to be of lower value.

[subzero]

However I am interested why you are not able to 1x lores and 2x SA at the same time? Going 2.5x spells is more than enough, and leaves plenty of points to train all your other magical skills just fine.

Exactly. There's no reason it's an either/or deal. My desktop is down for now, so I don't have access to all my excel files (not sure if I'd have them at various levels or not, anyway), but here's what I had on my Krolvin sorcerer in Shattered at 60:

8 Armor
5 MoC
1x PF
1x AS
1x MIU
2x Spells
2x SA
1.2x HP
1x EmC
1x SmC
1x Spirit Lore (probably all summoning, blessing would have been a post-cap thing for benefits via scroll-cast spells)
1.2x Sorcerer Lore
1x Perception
30 climb
27 swim

I tend to start off with little to no lore and 1.5x HP, then work HP down to 1x and pick up lores, maybe more spell ranks. I could have easily dropped spirit lore training to get between 2x and 2.5x spells, but I was obviously doing fine with 2x spells and left it. I want to say I eventually bumped spells up a bit before cap, but I can't recall for sure if I did and what I changed in order to do so (probably less lore and HP). The only time I don't have room for spell aiming is initially at very low levels when it doesn't matter since you don't have the mana or spells to make use of it. Other than that, spell aiming is a staple skill.


Well, I could have 2.5x spells and 1x in Necro lore, but I won't have any room for Elemental Lores or Demon lores.

Until the elemental lore review takes place, forget elemental lores. You can get them post-cap if you want. I'd like to see them tie in with the 400s and 700s more than they're likely to, but ya never know how that'll play out.


I've been really curious to see how much different 10 ranks in E-lores will be for 719 (my primary hunting spell). How much more frequently it will crit kill when right now I only crit kill on the first cast around 35-50% of the time (when used against magical critters - I don't use it on physical types).

Post-cap goal. You won't notice the difference.


I was hoping to try out 1.5x sorcerer lores with 40 ranks of elemental lores.

If you use scrolls, I think you'd get more use out of having a little blessing lore than what you get from elemental.


I guess my current hunting grounds I replace 708 with 709, and use 711 or out-right kill targets with 719 that I've been finding spell aiming to be of lower value.

Options are wonderful, though. I'd say sorcerers have the largest toolbox and I like to have it stocked.

[Maerit]

Hrmm, well this is interesting to say the least. I had heard a lot of chatter previously on LNet indicating that there was a good chunk of sorcerers out there which didn't bother with spell aiming saying that it was not necessary / useful compared to some other options. I also read on the Wiki that 10 ranks in E-lores would increase the critical damage of each element by 1 rank, so you'd definitely notice a lot more crit deaths, which is why I was interested in trying out those specific lores.

Does anyone currently have the elemental lores trained for 719 to compare to when they did not have them?

[subzero]

Hrmm, well this is interesting to say the least. I had heard a lot of chatter previously on LNet indicating that there was a good chunk of sorcerers out there which didn't bother with spell aiming saying that it was not necessary / useful compared to some other options. I also read on the Wiki that 10 ranks in E-lores would increase the critical damage of each element by 1 rank, so you'd definitely notice a lot more crit deaths, which is why I was interested in trying out those specific lores.

Does anyone currently have the elemental lores trained for 719 to compare to when they did not have them?

I eventually picked up 10 or 20 ranks of each elemental lore on my guy once capped. Here's the thing with DC. You either find a good target and DC wrecks it, lore or no, or you find a bad target and you waste a bunch of mana. Getting lore is not going to allow you to use DC on bad targets with any better success. The targets it's good against it already does a very good job of eliminating.

[Fallen]

I eventually picked up 10 or 20 ranks of each elemental lore on my guy once capped. Here's the thing with DC. You either find a good target and DC wrecks it, lore or no, or you find a bad target and you waste a bunch of mana. Getting lore is not going to allow you to use DC on bad targets with any better success. The targets it's good against it already does a very good job of eliminating.

This. Endroll is key as well. Better the points spent to get your CS up than dumping it into E-lore. It's only when upping CS is prohibitively expensive or outright impossible that lores start to look attractive.

[Silvean]

Spell aiming enhanced Limb Disruption is useful for eliminating threats in one cast once you begin facing more and more enemies immune to stuns. Minotaur Warriors, I believe, are susceptible to having their right arm blown off but they cannot be stunned with 706. The alternative is to immobilize them with RT from 711. The drawback to 711 is that the RT wears off if you can't kill them for some reason; a warrior without a right arm is permanently harmless. Imagine you are fighting a minotaur warrior and something else runs in and stuns you. Would you rather the previous opponent be in 5 seconds of RT or completely harmless?

At cap, the same goes for Triton Combatants and Radicals; aimed 708 eliminates the threat for a reasonable cost. I relied on it until I could reliably one-shot kill things with 717. I also make frequent use of focused 720 as a matter of personal preference.

I see above that 709 is being mentioned as a disabler. That's another way to go with the disadvantages that the creature is not rendered permanently harmless by one cast and there's a possibility of hitting other PCs.

[Androidpk]

Can a minotaur with no arm still charge?

[Malisai]

Can a minotaur with no arm still charge?

yes, taking care of the right leg solves that problem though.

I will say this.

I was 2x SA until almost cap...I want to say 95. I used 708 bunches while leveling. At 95 I fixskilled to a 3x spell build, and dropped SA, (lack of critters to cast 708 on in that part of the rift). This was due to a jump in TD on plane 5, since I was 2.5x spells but only 1x in sorcerer spells, the rest went into MnE and MnS.

Now, you don't HAVE to have SA, you can level without it. However, my opinion is that there isn't anything worth dumping SA and getting instead. As Fallen and others have said, if you want more power in your spells, go 2.5x spell training, and bump up your sorcerer spell ranks. There really isn't a training plan where you cannot get 2x SA.

However, if you don't want SA, don't get it and build how you like, I just find being able to cast focused 708 more beneficial than anything you could do with the TPs if you dropped SA.

[caelric]

And, if nothing else, the SA ranks are easy ranks to increase your runestaff DS.