Warhammer thoughts and build

[rushblitz]

Composite bows are great. Maul's are fantastic. Neither of these are the top end of there weapon class. So what about warhammers? Could it be the perfect storm weapon that no one is using?

Warhammer pro's

Multistrike - At 4 second base, one can get 3 swings at six seconds of RT assuming 38 bonus agi/dex. The recovery time is also lessened compared to 5 second weapons. The next focus multistrike for 4 swings is 8 seconds which could easily be reduced by better agi/dex.

Damage factor - Other fast weapons can really fall off while the warhammer has significant pop. It's almost a handaxe vs plate only .10 off. You do not need to rely on flares to kill targets, this base will get crits and they will kill.

Easier to aim - Its faster thus easier to ambush with. 66% crush for heads, nice cheap puncture crits for knockdowns. Ambush is expensive to train at 4/5 and this is a point saver for more lore and spells for paladins.

AvD - Not losing much AvD vs a morning star. 1-2 points.


Warhammer negitives

Ambush - Same reason I dislike maces is the RT for ambushing is the same 6 seconds you can get with a morning star. It takes third place with morning star and mace fighting for spots one and two for ambushing in blunt weapons.

They don't exist - Name one high end warhammer


Sample build at level 58

Shield and warhammer style focusing on paladin flares. Multistrike and shield strike increase the rate of attack per minute. I would consider voln to forgo the religion lore for divine strike setup instead using symbol of sleep and focusing on blessing and summoning lores. (Voln would also save all stamina for multistrikes compared to GOS) This build should be incredibly effect vs non corp, cast crusade and multistrike. Other part of this build is the shield. A sancted shield able to take 1604 would be ideal. Spikes would change shield training.
I really like a giantman for this build for the bonus to shield maneuvers. Any non small race would work.

Listed in ranks:

Armor Use..........................| 120
Shield Use.........................| 120
Combat Maneuvers...................| 60
Blunt Weapons......................| 120
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 55
Physical Fitness...................| 120
Harness Power......................| 55
Perception.........................| 40
Climbing...........................| 20
Swimming...........................| 20
Blessing Lore.......................| 25
Summoning Lore.....................| 15

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 20

Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 35

CMAN's

Feint 5 - bonding and weapon spec with the phantom CM bonus's should put this at about 2x CM effectiveness
Weapon Spec 3
Surge of Str 1

SHIELD

Shield bash 5
Shield focus 4
Shield forward 3 - 30 ranks of shield use is 12 DS when this is running with a tower shield, these ranks also help blocking and follow up shield strikes as these shield man's are based on shield RANKS
Shield strike 5 - self haste, kinda, knockdown with two chances to get a flare for 5 seconds, activates forward for more DS, great opener after it has stanced

[time4fun]

Ha, nice analysis. I agree that hammers don't quite get their due. I truly don't notice that big a difference between hammers and maces (I DO notice a difference between morning stars and hammers though, I will say). Maces obviously have an advantage with being purely crush damage, but puncture isn't exactly a bad crit type when ambushing. Even if it doesn't kill on a rank 5 head wound, it's still a 10 round stun. And the speed is definitely worth paying attention to. Particularly if you go TWC (though that's not going to be viable for you for a very long time)

Interestingly enough, I just turned 58 myself. One thing you forgot to account for though was that you'd be 2x in OHB, not 1x ;) I'd also consider going lighter on PF and picking up more lores. Paladin lores can pay off in a big way even with a small number of ranks. Obviously you want to be 2x PF eventually, but I promise you that you'll be perfectly viable at that level with 1x. Definitely a personal preference thing though- you can argue for or against either approach.

As far as cmans go, personally I'd take rank 2 of surge over weapon spec. But that's mostly because I routinely use so many different weapon bases. If you are truly just using hammers, wspec makes sense.

As far as shield use goes, shield strike is much better on paper than in practice. I used to have 5 ranks in that. I ditched them and haven't looked back- it just wasn't worth all of the points. You also only need to take shield focus to 3- use those points for that fourth rank on something else for now. Shield forward is also great on paper, but there are probably better options at this stage for you. For what it's worth, I've got: Shield Bash 5, Shield Focus 3, Eblock 2 (VERY worth it), spike focus 2, spike mastery 2 (also VERY, VERY worth it), and protective wall 2 (really saves you on DS in bad situations). Very happy with those choices.

Now on to the good news- there ARE a few high end hammers out there. Not as many as, say, morning stars, but they're there. Here's what I know of that I can confirm are still around (I'm sure there are quite a few more):

4x Impure Coraesine Taavish (in a black hole though)
2x 10x returner hammers. One is permablessed, and one had acid flares at one point (but may or may not still have them). I can only confirm one is still around for sure, but I'm 99% sure the other one is still around too
4.5x Realm-based flaring hammer. (Not so much powerful as nifty)
8x T4 Fully unlocked splitter hammer

I don't generally give out information about owners unless I know they're looking to sell, but if you're looking to buy then one of those owners may choose to identify themselves.

There were also two stormhammers from an old 98 premium auction. I've never been able to figure out if they were OHBs or THBs. But I'm sure at least one of those is still around somewhere.

[rolfard]

They don't exist - Name one high end warhammer


Mjölnir.

Mic drop.

[time4fun]

Mjölnir.

Mic drop.

Such a dork

[neimanz1]

Composite bows are great. Maul's are fantastic. Neither of these are the top end of there weapon class. So what about warhammers? Could it be the perfect storm weapon that no one is using?

Warhammer pro's

Multistrike - At 4 second base, one can get 3 swings at six seconds of RT assuming 38 bonus agi/dex. The recovery time is also lessened compared to 5 second weapons. The next focus multistrike for 4 swings is 8 seconds which could easily be reduced by better agi/dex.

Damage factor - Other fast weapons can really fall off while the warhammer has significant pop. It's almost a handaxe vs plate only .10 off. You do not need to rely on flares to kill targets, this base will get crits and they will kill.

Easier to aim - Its faster thus easier to ambush with. 66% crush for heads, nice cheap puncture crits for knockdowns. Ambush is expensive to train at 4/5 and this is a point saver for more lore and spells for paladins.

AvD - Not losing much AvD vs a morning star. 1-2 points.


Warhammer negitives

Ambush - Same reason I dislike maces is the RT for ambushing is the same 6 seconds you can get with a morning star. It takes third place with morning star and mace fighting for spots one and two for ambushing in blunt weapons.

They don't exist - Name one high end warhammer


Sample build at level 58

Shield and warhammer style focusing on paladin flares. Multistrike and shield strike increase the rate of attack per minute. I would consider voln to forgo the religion lore for divine strike setup instead using symbol of sleep and focusing on blessing and summoning lores. (Voln would also save all stamina for multistrikes compared to GOS) This build should be incredibly effect vs non corp, cast crusade and multistrike. Other part of this build is the shield. A sancted shield able to take 1604 would be ideal. Spikes would change shield training.
I really like a giantman for this build for the bonus to shield maneuvers. Any non small race would work.

Listed in ranks:

Armor Use..........................| 120
Shield Use.........................| 120
Combat Maneuvers...................| 60
Blunt Weapons......................| 120
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 55
Physical Fitness...................| 120
Harness Power......................| 55
Perception.........................| 40
Climbing...........................| 20
Swimming...........................| 20
Blessing Lore.......................| 25
Summoning Lore.....................| 15

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 20

Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 35

CMAN's

Feint 5 - bonding and weapon spec with the phantom CM bonus's should put this at about 2x CM effectiveness
Weapon Spec 3
Surge of Str 1

SHIELD

Shield bash 5
Shield focus 4
Shield forward 3 - 30 ranks of shield use is 12 DS when this is running with a tower shield, these ranks also help blocking and follow up shield strikes as these shield man's are based on shield RANKS
Shield strike 5 - self haste, kinda, knockdown with two chances to get a flare for 5 seconds, activates forward for more DS, great opener after it has stanced

multistrike is always 5 sec min & The best weapon in the game is probably a war hammer if not at least top 3

[Whirlin]

Multistrike - At 4 second base, one can get 3 swings at six seconds of RT assuming 38 bonus agi/dex. The recovery time is also lessened compared to 5 second weapons. The next focus multistrike for 4 swings is 8 seconds which could easily be reduced by better agi/dex.

This is assuming that recovery time is based on the weapon weight and DEX/AGL. This is not true. According to MSTRIKE testing thread here
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?92084-MStrike-Recovery/page2&highlight=mstrike
We also found correlation between weapon weight (not base weight... although base influences potential mimum), Physical Fitness, and raw STR when determining MSTRIKE recovery time. The only factors that would be advantageous for a warhammer would be the weight, as the reduced base weight would reduce the maximum lightened potential weight... However, this would likely result in a 1 pound weight difference maximum at max light... not being as drastic an effect as it's made out to be.



Damage factor - Other fast weapons can really fall off while the warhammer has significant pop. It's almost a handaxe vs plate only .10 off. You do not need to rely on flares to kill targets, this base will get crits and they will kill.

I'm not sure why you cherrypick a handaxe for comparison purposes, when compared to a morning star (another base 5 RT weapon), it rounds to -.25 DF across every ASG (some variance on cloth/leather)



Easier to aim - Its faster thus easier to ambush with. 66% crush for heads, nice cheap puncture crits for knockdowns. Ambush is expensive to train at 4/5 and this is a point saver for more lore and spells for paladins.

I have not seen tests that show that the size of the weapon have any impact on the ability to hit the aimed body part with proper ambush/combat maneuver training. While this can impact RT, it's not inherently more/less difficult to aim the weapon. While there is a comment in the wiki regarding, "Larger weapons are more difficult to aim," I haven't seen tests convey that the statement is regarding within the same weapon type, or a broader statement conveying that aiming polearms/THW is going to be more difficult than a One hander.

WarHammer and Morning star have the same 66% Crush/33% Pierce weapon type breakdown. I'm not sure why you rate this as a benefit...
You dismissed it early on... but this is one reason Mauls are so heavily sought... 100% Crush damage on those.



AvD - Not losing much AvD vs a morning star. 1-2 points.

I'm not sure why not far behind is considered a pro... It's still a loss compared to a morning star.




Warhammer negitives

Ambush - Same reason I dislike maces is the RT for ambushing is the same 6 seconds you can get with a morning star. It takes third place with morning star and mace fighting for spots one and two for ambushing in blunt weapons.

6 seconds will be the minimum RT for any weapon with a normal min RT of 5. This includes a lance (theoretically... with +83 DEXAGL). If we were to open up comparison purposes to everything that could be ambushed in a 6s RT... this would quickly fall behind in advantages.



They don't exist - Name one high end warhammer

Uncommon weapon types are typically uncommon for an underlying mechanical reason.




Sample build at level 58

Shield and warhammer style focusing on paladin flares. Multistrike and shield strike increase the rate of attack per minute. I would consider voln to forgo the religion lore for divine strike setup instead using symbol of sleep and focusing on blessing and summoning lores. (Voln would also save all stamina for multistrikes compared to GOS) This build should be incredibly effect vs non corp, cast crusade and multistrike. Other part of this build is the shield. A sancted shield able to take 1604 would be ideal. Spikes would change shield training.

Nothing about your build is specific to a warhammer build... Morning star would be just as/more effective.

[Androidpk]

Not what I was expecting

[Aganii]

I own that fully unlocked splitting warhammer and agree they dont get their due. The true advantage is in the mstrike RT and recovery which is significantly better than two morning stars. I can 4 strike focus mstrike in 6 seconds with 15 seconds recovery. We will see if I can get that down to 5 seconds on the next AGIDEX threshold.

I disagree and think they are definitely a close second for best OHB. And maybe third of all the one handers. Maces are good but I think they are better suited an ambushing weapon, personally.

[Jeril]

5 seconds is the minimum rt possible with an mstrike, but it may not be possible depending on the speed of your weapon(s), race, and enhancives.

Mechanically, unless you hide/ambush, morning stars are the way to go. However, you don't always have to use the mechanically superior choice either. If you want to do a warhammer/shield build go for it.

Vishra also left off a 5x T5 MCW perfect returning warhammer.

[time4fun]

5 seconds is the minimum rt possible with an mstrike, but it may not be possible depending on the speed of your weapon(s), race, and enhancives.

Mechanically, unless you hide/ambush, morning stars are the way to go. However, you don't always have to use the mechanically superior choice either. If you want to do a warhammer/shield build go for it.

Vishra also left off a 5x T5 MCW perfect returning warhammer.

Definitely worth emphasizing here. You're a Paladin- your AS will be high, and you already have an inherent DF bonus. There's a lot more flexibility with weapon choice for those reasons alone.

And as for that warhammer- not sure I knew about that one. Too lazy to check my notes though.

[Whirlin]

Definitely worth emphasizing here. You're a Paladin- your AS will be high, and you already have an inherent DF bonus. There's a lot more flexibility with weapon choice for those reasons alone.

And as for that warhammer- not sure I knew about that one. Too lazy to check my notes though.

Well... the problem with that statement implies that there's a limit where the values cease mattering. For Damage Factors and AS, More is better... until FOREVER. There's not some magical point where it's 'good enough'. There will always be a situation where more will always help. Otherwise there wouldn't be any reason to create a 5x, T5, MCW perfect returning warhammer, because just normal, cheapo 7x perfect would be enough! Furthermore, if there was a limit, there would be a massive price drop off.

[loxe]

What it comes down to is do you like and envision your character using a warhammer? Yes? Use it. No? Use something else. Do you let numbers determine what you are or use, or do you let your vision of your character determine what you use. Personally I prefer roleplay vision over statistics/crunched numbers.

[time4fun]

Well... the problem with that statement implies that there's a limit where the values cease mattering. For Damage Factors and AS, More is better... until FOREVER. There's not some magical point where it's 'good enough'. There will always be a situation where more will always help. Otherwise there wouldn't be any reason to create a 5x, T5, MCW perfect returning warhammer, because just normal, cheapo 7x perfect would be enough! Furthermore, if there was a limit, there would be a massive price drop off.

Things can only get so dead. There is a point of diminishing returns, especially with crit randomization. And the RP benefit of having a character who matches your vision eventually outpaces the combat returns.

[Jeril]

Things can only get so dead. There is a point of diminishing returns, especially with crit randomization. And the RP benefit of having a character who matches your vision eventually outpaces the combat returns.

I've said this in other places but it depends on what you are hunting. Things can only get so dead but even at cap there are things a maxed out paladin isn't going to have an easy time hitting. There are some grimswarm that end up with DSs well above 700, and liches in the scatter with 540. Even fetish masters can have their DS high enough that without setup, and sometimes even with, that they aren't always going to die with the first hit.

[time4fun]

I've said this in other places but it depends on what you are hunting. Things can only get so dead but even at cap there are things a maxed out paladin isn't going to have an easy time hitting. There are some grimswarm that end up with DSs well above 700, and liches in the scatter with 540. Even fetish masters can have their DS high enough that without setup, and sometimes even with, that they aren't always going to die with the first hit.

In fairness, the things you're talking about here aren't going to be improved by switching from one type of OHB to another

[Jeril]

In fairness, the things you're talking about here aren't going to be improved by switching from one type of OHB to another

They will be improved a little bit because the harder you can hit those things the better off you are and there will definitely be times where it makes a difference.

[Warriorbird]

This is unfortunately another one of those things that Jeril is right about. I had a really nice jeddart axe for a while. It was just nowhere near as deadly as awl-pike or lance.

Mind you, there's limits. I found myself often wishing I could aim a spear during Duskruin, but that's more for the aiming than the less DF.

[Middian]

I sold a coraesine hammer last year, that worked quite well. I would say that is a fairly higher hammer.

[rushblitz]

This is assuming that recovery time is based on the weapon weight and DEX/AGL. This is not true. According to MSTRIKE testing thread here http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?92084-MStrike-Recovery/page2&highlight=mstrike
We also found correlation between weapon weight (not base weight... although base influences potential mimum), Physical Fitness, and raw STR when determining MSTRIKE recovery time. The only factors that would be advantageous for a warhammer would be the weight, as the reduced base weight would reduce the maximum lightened potential weight... However, this would likely result in a 1 pound weight difference maximum at max light... not being as drastic an effect as it's made out to be.
Going off wiki for recovery it is based on weapon speed and focused or unfocused. I did jam that recovery sentence inbewteen my thoughts on agi/dex reduction roundtime but I didn't intend for it to mean it correlated to recovery.

On the weight of a weapon it doesn't effect how fast you swing, how well you aim, how much you crit for. I'd be surprised that it played into recovery as a factor than other than encumbrance. Did you do that test completely stripped with the lance going from 12 to 9 ?

I'm not sure why you cherrypick a handaxe for comparison purposes, when compared to a morning star (another base 5 RT weapon), it rounds to -.25 DF across every ASG (some variance on cloth/leather)
Handaxe is a weapon people associate with being good vs plate. Was giving an example more people would be familiar with. Not everyone knows of the morning star's greatness.

I have not seen tests that show that the size of the weapon have any impact on the ability to hit the aimed body part with proper ambush/combat maneuver training. While this can impact RT, it's not inherently more/less difficult to aim the weapon. While there is a comment in the wiki regarding, "Larger weapons are more difficult to aim," I haven't seen tests convey that the statement is regarding within the same weapon type, or a broader statement conveying that aiming polearms/THW is going to be more difficult than a One hander.
WarHammer and Morning star have the same 66% Crush/33% Pierce weapon type breakdown. I'm not sure why you rate this as a benefit... You dismissed it early on... but this is one reason Mauls are so heavily sought... 100% Crush damage on those.

Daggers aim better than handaxes. Why? It is a smaller weapon. What determines if it is a smaller weapon ? The base RT, not the weight. Weight can be heavily gamed with all the lightening buisness.

That being said, there are no logs or information about aiming mods and weapons. Closest discussion to it is here http://forum.gsplayers.com/archive/index.php/t-60615.html Its is all just player experience and hints from GM's.

Crush as a damage type is a benefit. Consider if the percentages were flipped 66% puncture and 33% crush. The warhammer would be worse off.

Maul's are primarly used because they are fast for a two handed weapon and the DF vs the higher armor classes are top notch. Crush damage is a big bonus but an after thought. If one removed maul and mattock and changed it with a sword with the same stats and slash damage people would use it because the combination of speed and DF is that good.


I'm not sure why not far behind is considered a pro... It's still a loss compared to a morning star.

It is a pro for a four second weapon. Edged loses up to 5 AvD on the armor classes that matter.


6 seconds will be the minimum RT for any weapon with a normal min RT of 5. This includes a lance (theoretically... with +83 DEXAGL). If we were to open up comparison purposes to everything that could be ambushed in a 6s RT... this would quickly fall behind in advantages.

I just feel it is a loss of opportunity cost. Morningstar in six seconds is better than a warhammer in six seconds.

Uncommon weapon types are typically uncommon for an underlying mechanical reason.
Morning star's ? Completely viable since the inception of the game yet never took off until player forging.

Nothing about your build is specific to a warhammer build... Morning star would be just as/more effective.

Just a change of operations that more heavily uses multistrike which the warhammer has a big advantage in speed and recovery wise over the morning star. Typical combat would be setup, multistrike instead of setup, ambush. Current order of operations with morning star:

Prep if needed:
Trial 1602
Aura 1614

Setup:
Divine strike 1615 or symbol of sleep
Shield bash or shield strike
Ambush leg with spirit strike

Kill:
Ambush Head
Ambush Neck
Multistrike (moved up if uncorp)

Problems with morning star's with this setup is crit randomization, puncture instead of crush sometimes and missing target of ambush. Good endroll, hit head and hmm not dead. Add six seconds attempt again at neck.

How does switching to warhammer change these problems ? With the warhammer it changes from a crit centric build to a hp centric build with random crits. Multistrike moves up ahead of ambush in the kill section. You gain more strikes to get more paladin flares which can kill also. While it is unlikely to get as fast as kills as aiming (but it is possible) it should hit critical mass in hitpoints at a more steady baseline. Example star build kills between 9 - 18 seconds and warhammer is at a steady 12-14. (made up numbers) Less spikes essentially.

Now consider ambush training. To hit where you want to aim very reliably it takes up to 40 ranks of ambush. For a paladin at 4/5 thats 160/200 that could be spent on more armor or spells or maybe MOC. Legging a creature takes zero ambush as the mod for that is low so would not even lose that.

[time4fun]

I sold a coraesine hammer last year, that worked quite well. I would say that is a fairly higher hammer.

That hammer is fantastic. But it's also in a black hole right now.

The nice thing about Paladin weapons is that they're just automatically mid-range. A 7x perfect hammer is going to be fantastic with 1625. Most of the flare types out there are going to be inferior to what you already have, and, frankly, nothing below heavy crit weighting would be worth losing guiding light flares.

Honestly, it's not like most folks are running around with blink flares, coraesine, rotflares, etc. You aren't at some massive disadvantage for choosing a base that doesn't have quite as many uber versions running around. To be blunt (har), if you're choosing OHBs that shipped has already sailed.

Also don't let the stat crunching monkeys here throw you off. When I hunt, I try to use different weapons each hunt. So I get to compare hammers, stars, and maces on a daily basis. The hammer always gets the job done just as well as the maces and stars. I do notice a difference with stars, of course, but I don't come back from my hammer hunts any more beat up than with my star hunts. I absolutely recommend choosing your RP vision over obscure and slight mechanical differences between bases. You're going to train the same way no matter what, you're going to hunt the same way no matter what.

[rushblitz]

Finally got 55 ranks of MOC to do some weapon speed testing and the results were not expected. The multistrike formula for recovery and swing speed is wrong on the wiki.

Focused multistrike 3 swings with -3 rt from agi/dex

Morning star - 9 seconds - expected 8
Warhammer - 8 seconds - expected 6
Maul - 10 seconds - expected 12

Recovery time was at a steady 15-17 seconds, weapon type and weapon weight didn't matter for OHB. The formula for two swings is based off of weapon speed but only if it over eight seconds. From a lordsmo post for focused two swings:

RT = 5 + Weapon Speed if over 8 seconds base weapon
RT = 4 + Weapon Speed if under 8 seconds base weapon

This works for the focused two swings I was seeing from morning star and warhammer at 6 and 5. Anything past 3 swings it is unknown what the formula is. I don't think the warhammer is worth the one second off on multistrike for the loss of DF unless one has a very high end one. Three swings in six seconds under the old formula was the biggest selling point for me and it is not the case anymore.

Sidenote:

The maul 3 focus strike for 10 seconds was impressive. A faster race could get that down to 9 or 8. Be a monk with perfect self and burst of swiftness up 7 seconds for 3 swings? The maul hits the sweet spot that it is under 8 seconds base and a heck of a weapon.

[time4fun]

What determines recovery speed between mstrikes? I thought it was always 60 seconds.

[rushblitz]

Whirlin linked this:

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?92084-MStrike-Recovery&highlight=mstrike

Seems to be a combination of STR, DEX, physical fitness.

[Jeril]

What determines recovery speed between mstrikes? I thought it was always 60 seconds.

Mstrike recovery is only 60 seconds after berserking. With every weapon combination I've used I can mstrike, attack twice, pause about a second and the recovery time is up.

As far as tactics go, what is stopping one from using mstrike with the morning star and killing faster then you would with a warhammer? As a warrior I've easily trained for both and while paladins can be tighter on tps I am pretty sure it is still possible.

[time4fun]

Mstrike recovery is only 60 seconds after berserking. With every weapon combination I've used I can mstrike, attack twice, pause about a second and the recovery time is up.

As far as tactics go, what is stopping one from using mstrike with the morning star and killing faster then you would with a warhammer? As a warrior I've easily trained for both and while paladins can be tighter on tps I am pretty sure it is still possible.

It's an RP Decision. The OP just wanted to know if a warhammer was viable. Everyone else launched into an esoteric discussion of whether it was the best blunt base.

[Taernath]

It's an RP Decision. The OP just wanted to know if a warhammer was viable. Everyone else launched into an esoteric discussion of whether it was the best blunt base.

You sure about that? I took OP to be asking for opinions on warhammers, and his arguments were from a purely mechanical standpoint. Everyone knows warhammers are viable, hell, cudgels are viable.

[Vorpodu]

Especially that haste cudgel. That thing is awesome. Who owns it now?

[Aganii]

Mstrike recovery is only 60 seconds after berserking. With every weapon combination I've used I can mstrike, attack twice, pause about a second and the recovery time is up.

As far as tactics go, what is stopping one from using mstrike with the morning star and killing faster then you would with a warhammer? As a warrior I've easily trained for both and while paladins can be tighter on tps I am pretty sure it is still possible.

Wouldnt the star be slower if you dont have the AGIDEX to reduce the mstrike to the same speed as the warhammer? Morning stars are definitely better than warhammers, overall. If you are blunt and board its an easy choice between them if purely looking at mechanics.

TWC stars vs hammers is closer unless you can get the minimum mstrike RT with both. As an Erithi I will never get a 5 second Mstrike RT with two stars.

[time4fun]

Especially that haste cudgel. That thing is awesome. Who owns it now?

Crowbill.

And Solfer I think. Been hoping he comes back so I can buy it from him. I'd pay goodv silvers for that thing