Judaism VS Atheism

I am half Spanish Sephardic, half Ashkenazi and would like to think of myself as 100% Jew.

The only problem is, I don't, and haven't for a very, very long time, believed in higher forces, God(s), or other toothfairies (imho.)

My question is, by only breaking one or two commandments, mainly, Thou shall have no other gods beside me, am I inherently not Jewish?

I go to Temple only for the high holidays, but I do know how to read hebrew (when it has vowels, not standard) and am well known in the congregation.

I had a Bar-Mitzvah while in an agnostic phase.

So I ask you this?

Am I truly a jew?

[xtc]

Tough question. My 2 cents is that I guess if you are an atheist you aren't a religious Jew, however you’re still an ethnic Jew. I have heard said that Judaism is a religion not a race. However since you inherit Judaism from your mother isn't it also an ethnicity?

However I am not Jewish, it sounds like a question that a Rabbi would be best suited to answer.

[SpunGirl]

I don't know if I'd say being Jewish is an ethnicity, but it's a heritage. Like, you can not be religious and still be proud of your Jewish heritage, and still consider yourself "Jewish" if you like. I have friends who are like you, that go to temple mainly as a social undertaking but aren't sure what they believe.

It's the same way with friends of mine who are mormon but have left the church, even though I hate to compare Judaism to that fucked up religion.

-K

[xtc]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
I don't know if I'd say being Jewish is an ethnicity, but it's a heritage. Like, you can not be religious and still be proud of your Jewish heritage, and still consider yourself "Jewish" if you like. I have friends who are like you, that go to temple mainly as a social undertaking but aren't sure what they believe.

It's the same way with friends of mine who are mormon but have left the church, even though I hate to compare Judaism to that fucked up religion.

-K

Yes heritage is a better description

[Latrinsorm]

I don't think it's possible to be Jewish (religion) if you don't believe in God.

However, you can't change your bloodline. And if that has a healthy helping of the tribes, then there you go.

[4a6c1]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
So I ask you this?

Am I truly a jew?

You are whatever you say you are. Faith is determined by the faithful.

<--------not faithful

Yes, but just as much as I'd like to say or believe in something that I think I am, it does not necessarily make it true.

[4a6c1]

Yes it does. How can you measure faith otherwise? What determines suitable worship can ultimately only be judged by God (or whoever). Which makes how you feel about your own faith the judge and jury for now.

But I think you've answered this for yourself.

[xtc]

Stanley a friend of mine's Father was held in a Concentration Camp during WW2. This experience squashed whatever belief he had in God. Years later he moved to Toronto and with some friends help establish a Synagogue here. On High Holidays he use to meet his friends at the Synagogue and then they would out for a deli sandwich. He is a resolute atheist. He is also a Jew, of this he has no doubt and neither do I.

[Jazuela]

Jewish law says if mom's Jewish, you're Jewish. Whether you're a practicing Jew is a different matter entirely.

I'm Jewish by bloodline and by upbringing. I am err..I haven't named my religion yet, I make it up as I go. But suffice it to say I'm a non-practicing Jew.

Like it or not, you were born unto the Children of Israel. You can't change that, no matter what you believe or not believe. And there's no shame in it either. Nothing to be proud of, nothing to be ashamed of. It's just part of your background. Kinda like having red hair. It's just part of who you are, and you're not required to think about it if it doesn't fit your personality to do so.

If it makes you feel better, there are many MANY people in the same boat, or similar. People who were baptized in the Catholic Church - making them Catholic according to their laws..and yet grew up straying from the Church and finding their own beliefs (or lack thereof). It doesn't make them "not Catholic." It makes them a non-practicing Catholic.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Jazuela
Kinda like having red hair. Uh, bad example in Stan's case. :)

[imported_Kranar]

You could totally renounce Judaism and not believe in God and worship money if you'd like...

You'd still be a Jew. The Jews include "The Chosen People", and all descendents of them, whether or not they believe in God. The religion is just the set of laws and beliefs that were given to "The Chosen People" but to be Jewish doesn't mean to follow those laws or those beliefs. It strictly means being a descendent of another Jew through your mother.

Converting to Judaism is pretty sketchy since the Orthodox don't believe in converts, and very few sects of Judaism allow for conversion.

[Nytalus]

I'm pretty much in the same boat:

I was born in Israel in '83 and moved to the States when I was 3. Throughout my life, my family was what we would call Holiday Jews, going to synagogue only on the highest of the holy days. Like nearly every male child raised in a Jewish household, I was forced to have a Bar Mitzvah (something I despised at the time, but am glad I did now). When I turned 18, though, my parents allowed me to choose whether or not I wanted to continue going to temple. Three years later, I have yet to step back into a synagogue.

My take? Culturally, I'm Jewish. I recognize that my descendents were from different countries in Eastern Europe (Poland, Hungary, Romania, Russia), but they all share a unique culture apart from that of their homeland. I know some of that has been imparted upon me, so I know I'm a part of that community. Religiously, however, I'm agnostic (the "safe" choice: "I didn't NOT believe in you, God, I just didn't know if you were exactly what those insane books say.")and doubt that stance will ever change.

To summarize: Yes, you're a Jew by descent (and always will be), but your religious stance is elsewhere.

Edit: Damn smileys.

[Edited on 10-22-2004 by Nytalus]

[Bobmuhthol]

<<I have heard said that Judaism is a religion not a race.>>

That it is. If you don't believe in God, you're not a follower of Judaism, simply.

I'm sure someone else mentioned this but I didn't read this thread.

[Tsa`ah]

Half right Jez.

A Jew is a Jew is a Jew.

Kind of like being an Eagle Scout.

On the subject of maternal passage, that is an adaptation. During the Roman occupation and the subjugation of the Jews by Roman soldiers, women abandoned new born children that were products of rape. The reason for this was because the FATHERS weren't Jewish. There for the CHILDREN would not be considered Jewish and would not be accepted into Jewish culture. The laws of acceptance were changed to incorporate maternal as well as paternal lineage in order to prevent child abandonment.

Paternal Lineage was the key before then as women were considered property and not equals.

Common practice today is to make the determination via maternal lineage. There are still some very orthodox sects that only recognize paternal lineage where "Jewishness" is concerned.

Do become disavowed from Judaism and the culture? That's never been a practice of Jews. Were you raised in a Zionist setting you would be considered a traitor to Israel, but still a Jew. You would just be punished in the event of picking the faith up again. Returning to Judaism would make you ba'al teshuva and would require re-imersion into the faith.

So the skinny of it is you are and will always be Jewish, like it or not. You're just outside the culture and faith.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<I have heard said that Judaism is a religion not a race.>>

That it is. If you don't believe in God, you're not a follower of Judaism, simply.

I'm sure someone else mentioned this but I didn't read this thread.

That would be false. Jews aren't a race, but Hebrews (however diluted) are. Culture, heritage, and religion are very inter-linked, but not indivisible.

[4a6c1]

Judaism is alot like Tibetan Buddhism in that its more a way of life than a religion. There will never be a time when it is not a part of who you are if you are born into the belief system.

In the States, Judaism is even a culture within a culture. Its a remarkable ideaology and has had admirable staying power throughout history. Not many religions have had the ability to evolve so drastically as it has. In the beginning it was forced transformation. I believe now it has alot to do with the values of society vs. values of traditional religions.

Ugh...rambling. Bed time now.

[LadyLuck]

Raised Catholic. Got kicked out of CCD for wearing a Motley Crue shirt in 7th grade (that dates me, I know.. I'm old).

Saw a lot of death, my dad, my friends, relatives, too many too soon. Overdoses, suicides, illnesses, whatever. Too much too soon for a wee lass.

My brother grew jaded, he's a pure Atheist, younger than me. He saw dad dying as God taking him away. I was for a long time. Now, I'm a humanist pure, and an agnostic. I mean, the whole Catholic thing doesn't make sense to me anyway... why do I have to tell a strange male "sins" to be forgiven, why is he godly to forgive them, why aren't women? Why can't I even use birth control to control a poly-cystic ovarian disease, or why do I have to go to a place to worship to be in "good graces" and go to heaven, etc.?

One can only bury so many loved ones, and question so many things, and go through so much pain, without questioning big. And believe me, I've buried a lot of a lot of loved ones, slept in too many hostpial beds at the side of family, friends, lovers, etc. It took me about 8 years to finally break from my Catholic upbringing, inner turmoil from hell, to realize I'm very content and happy where I am as agnostic and humanist (one needs look up humanist pure). I'm a VERY spiritual person, just not religious, and it took a lot of years and a lot of guilt to be happy in that.

Haven't found any church worth my feelings till recent, discovered a Unitarian one in my town. Haven't had the nerve to go yet. Have my baby to think of, I want her to have spiritual upbrining, but not brainwashed. This church is open, they even have members who don't believe in God and it's a spiritual thing.

In the meantime, I'm happy being content, finally, in who I am. I have no guilt. I have no regrets, only lessons learned from that make me a better person and whom I am today. And, Goddess or God, or many, there may or may not be something out there.... my goal is to just be a good person with none to answer to except myself... and what I know in my heart and mind is right or wrong... I'm a good person, tis all that matters.

LadyLuck

[Parkbandit]

Religion of any sort is the biggest scam in human history.

Period.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Religion of any sort is the biggest scam in human history.

Period.

I would tend to agree with the statement if you placed organized and tithing in that statement.

As pointed out, Judaism extends beyond simple theological belief.

[4a6c1]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Religion of any sort is the biggest scam in human history.

Period.

I agree with you about several separate belief systems and one governmental religion in particular.

For the rest, they fascinate me to no end and I'm probably going to spend the rest of my life trying to understand them.

Religions studies! :rah:

[Edited on 10-22-2004 by JihnasSpirit]

[Jazuela]

That's an interesting explanation Tsa'ah, about why the maternal line determines whether or not the kid is Jewish.

I had asked the Rabbi in the synagogue I worked in the same question - why.

Now granted, he had a habit of kidding around, but he knew I was asking a serious question. His father was a Chassidic rabbi; he's Conservative privately, and works for a Reform synagogue.

He told me that if the mother is Jewish, then the kid is Jewish, because you can't always prove paternity (prior to DNA testing obviously). But if the kid comes out of the woman's womb, then there's no question that it's HER kid (prior to in-vitro fertilization, obviously).

It was a matter of logistics and common sense of the times, according to the Rabbi who spoke with me.

Not that I believe one explanation over the other, but they're both interesting viewpoints on the subject.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<That would be false. Jews aren't a race>>

Then it's a good thing I said, "Judaism is a religion and not a race," eh?

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by LadyLuck

My brother grew jaded, he's a pure Atheist, younger than me. He saw dad dying as God taking him away.

Then he's pissed, not an Atheist.

Jorddyn

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<That would be false. Jews aren't a race>>

Then it's a good thing I said, "Judaism is a religion and not a race," eh?

Your entire statement was incorrect. Good thing you're still an idiot and no one expects much from you.


[Edited on 10-22-2004 by Tsa`ah]

[xtc]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Half right Jez.


On the subject of maternal passage, that is an adaptation. During the Roman occupation and the subjugation of the Jews by Roman soldiers, women abandoned new born children that were products of rape. The reason for this was because the FATHERS weren't Jewish. There for the CHILDREN would not be considered Jewish and would not be accepted into Jewish culture. The laws of acceptance were changed to incorporate maternal as well as paternal lineage in order to prevent child abandonment.

Paternal Lineage was the key before then as women were considered property and not equals.

Common practice today is to make the determination via maternal lineage. There are still some very orthodox sects that only recognize paternal lineage where "Jewishness" is concerned.

.

Tsa'ah, I posed the question to a reform friend of mine of why Judaism goes through the mother. His answer to me was, that you are always sure who your mother is however the same could not be said for your father.

Is this also a reason for the maternal passage of Judaism?

[Faent]

>>You are whatever you say you are. Faith is determined by the faithful. -Jihna

Stupid.


>>Yes, but just as much as I'd like to say or believe in something that I think I am, it does not necessarily make it true. -Stanley

Smart.

>>Yes it does. How can you measure faith otherwise? -Jihna

Even stupider. Please get brains.

-Scott

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by xtc
Tsa'ah, I posed the question to a reform friend of mine of why Judaism goes through the mother. His answer to me was, that you are always sure who your mother is however the same could not be said for your father.

Is this also a reason for the maternal passage of Judaism?

The problem with tradition is that we often forget or don't ever bother to learn the reasons and events that ushered in the tradition.

This isn't like Hanukah or Passover where we recite scriptures and stories. This is more like trying to understand why a cheese burger or veil aren't Kosher without understanding the laws that dictate why they are.

When lineage is explained in any version of the bible or Torah, how is it explained? So and so, who was the son of So and Who, who was the Son of So and what, so on and so forth. Why was it done like this?

Abraham is the Patriarch of Judaism. It is to Abraham that we trace our ancestry. We don't trace it to Sarah. It's the seed of Abraham.

Also take into account that sexuality and marriage in Judaism aren't the same as sexuality and marriage in Christianity. Sex before marriage isn't uncommon nor is it viewed as wrong. Child before marriage is, or is supposed to be, a no no. Jews are separatists; we're not supposed to marry outside of the culture or religion. Since it was a father's responsibility to see that his daughters were married, it was also the father's duty to see they married Jewish. That is how paternity was handled. An unwed pregnant mother was soon married to the first amenable Jewish man, be he 13 or 113 years old.

You also have to consider the aspect of slavery. Abraham had two sons with two different women. Isaac by his wife, and Ishmael by his servant Hagar. Was Hagar Jewish if Abraham is considered the Patriarch? No, yet Ishmael is also considered of the seed of Abraham.

As I mentioned in a prior post, women were considered property and it was the seed of Abraham that allowed for inclusion into Judaism.

Roman occupation placed the Jewish ruling class in a precarious position when it came to fatherless children and maintaining the potency of Abraham's seed. They chose a way that would be acceptable and least diminishing "in spirit" to the blood lines.

[HarmNone]

I am loving this, Tsa`ah! I'm learning so much! :)

[Back]

Stan,

Good luck,

Backlash.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Originally posted by xtc
Tsa'ah, I posed the question to a reform friend of mine of why Judaism goes through the mother. His answer to me was, that you are always sure who your mother is however the same could not be said for your father.

Is this also a reason for the maternal passage of Judaism?

The problem with tradition is that we often forget or don't ever bother to learn the reasons and events that ushered in the tradition.

This isn't like Hanukah or Passover where we recite scriptures and stories. This is more like trying to understand why a cheese burger or veil aren't Kosher without understanding the laws that dictate why they are.

When lineage is explained in any version of the bible or Torah, how is it explained? So and so, who was the son of So and Who, who was the Son of So and what, so on and so forth. Why was it done like this?

Abraham is the Patriarch of Judaism. It is to Abraham that we trace our ancestry. We don't trace it to Sarah. It's the seed of Abraham.

Also take into account that sexuality and marriage in Judaism aren't the same as sexuality and marriage in Christianity. Sex before marriage isn't uncommon nor is it viewed as wrong. Child before marriage is, or is supposed to be, a no no. Jews are separatists; we're not supposed to marry outside of the culture or religion. Since it was a father's responsibility to see that his daughters were married, it was also the father's duty to see they married Jewish. That is how paternity was handled. An unwed pregnant mother was soon married to the first amenable Jewish man, be he 13 or 113 years old.

You also have to consider the aspect of slavery. Abraham had two sons with two different women. Isaac by his wife, and Ishmael by his servant Hagar. Was Hagar Jewish if Abraham is considered the Patriarch? No, yet Ishmael is also considered of the seed of Abraham.

As I mentioned in a prior post, women were considered property and it was the seed of Abraham that allowed for inclusion into Judaism.

Roman occupation placed the Jewish ruling class in a precarious position when it came to fatherless children and maintaining the potency of Abraham's seed. They chose a way that would be acceptable and least diminishing "in spirit" to the blood lines.

Thanks Tsa'ah you have answered some questions but created another. I am familiar with Abraham being the patriarch of Judaism. I am familiar with the story of Sarah, God's promise to give her a child, Hagar, and the Abraham's sons Isaac & Ishmael. Actually Genesis 25-2 says Abraham had more sons with another wife Keturah who gave him four sons. Of course Abraham is a central figure for Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Anway I am getting sidetracked but Sunday school had to have some purpose.

Question: If premartial sex isn't a sin in Judaism, but having children out of wedlock is, how do these 2 concepts reconcile? Before the advent of the pill it would seem impossible? Aren't they at odds with each other?

[Latrinsorm]

Sheepskin: the Iron Age's latex.

[Ravenstorm]

The condom dates back to ancient Egypt.

Raven

[Back]

Is there a word for people who have to quote 20 lines before they can post 20 words?

[xtc]

Originally posted by Backlash
Is there a word for people who have to quote 20 lines before they can post 20 words?

detailed

[Back]

Whether you think you don’t believe in God or not... if you are circumcised, according to the old testament, you are a Jew. And lets face it, its the more cleanly and asthetic way to go.

[LadyLuck]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by LadyLuck

My brother grew jaded, he's a pure Atheist, younger than me. He saw dad dying as God taking him away.

Then he's pissed, not an Atheist.

Jorddyn

Actually, given my brother is 4 years younger than me, and having buried his dad (14 years ago), all our friends, other family, etc. He went through a very long term of deciding. He contemplated a lot of things... over quite a few years. He is an Atheist based on what he has experienced, his beliefs, and his own intelligent conclusions. He was married by a female at a huge ceremony/party with roots to our Irish history and old ways, with no reference to Christianity or God at all (as how I was married 2nd time despite Baptist and Catholic in-laws, heh ). He's very content where he is. Yeah, he and I are both pissed still that we lost a dad too young, and so many others, but his being pissed isn't the only account for his Atheism. Likewise, me turning against Catholic was accrued over many experiences with the Church, even in throughout my 20s, not just a matter of my dad dying.

So, don't assume every Atheist is a pissed at a "God". Many are born that way, some turn that way. And, I have a hard history of education in philosophy and relgions in college. As, did my brother.

LadyLuck

[LadyLuck]

Originally posted by Backlash
Whether you think you don’t believe in God or not... if you are circumcised, according to the old testament, you are a Jew. And lets face it, its the more cleanly and asthetic way to go.

As far as I'm concerned, you're born in nature the way you should be. We didn't know whether I was having a girl or boy till birth. But one thing I was adamant about was however my baby was born was how my baby would remain. If a boy, no circumcism. If he wants foreskin removed later in life, let that be his educated choice and I would pay for and support it. If a girl, no ear piercings or anything, let that be her choice, and I would pay for it and support it later. "cleanly and asthetic" no. If an uncircumsized male is taught how to clean under the foreskin, it's as clean as one who has no foreskin. Just like a female child needs to be taught how to clean under the clitoral hood, same thing for males.

I favor the human body being a choice of one's own to alter it. That is not based on religion. If one wants tattoos, piercings, clipped foreskin, whatever... I support them making that choice later when they're able to on their own.

And, for the record, IMO, there is no difference between a snipped and unsnipped male for sexual gratification.

[Sean]

Hes not an atheist becuase if he believes ... "God taking him away." ... is what happened when his father died it means he believes in god. Atleast thats what I'm assuming Jorddyn was getting at by saying he was just pissed off. But hey maybe he was atheist at the end of all of it but I don't really get how you can not believe in god while at the same time believe that god took your father from you.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by LadyLuck
So, don't assume every Atheist is a pissed at a "God".The only thing Jorddyn assumed was that you meant what you said.

[Jazuela]

You can't be pissed at something you don't believe exists. Therefore - if you are pissed at god, you cannot by definition be an Athiest. Athiests don't believe there IS a god to be pissed at.