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Ilvane
10-21-2004, 05:06 PM
I kind of like this. Found it on commondreams.org.

Wasn’t Jesus A Liberal?
by Gary Vance

Liberalism has been under assault for years now. The battering of this grand political philosophy has altered the contemporary definition of liberal to the point that Conservatives use it as a profane word. They use it to paint a political opponent as anti-God and anti-American. It has gotten to the point that moderate and liberal Christians are afraid to be open about their political leanings. Sadly, it even affects their conscience and choices as they enter the voting booth. This is particularly troubling to me as a Christian evangelical minister who loves America.
Liberalism as defined by Webster’s Third New International Dictionary: “a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of man, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for tolerance and freedom for the individual from arbitrary authority in all spheres of life…”

I am not sure why anyone would feel threatened by Liberalism as defined by the dictionary. They are apparently unaware or simply refuse to acknowledge the long history of liberals who have labored for the betterment of society and the furthering of God’s Kingdom.

The labor movement of the early twentieth century was aided significantly when major Christian denominations got behind it. No average American would have a fair wage today if it weren’t for liberal Christians and labor activists. Liberal Christians and civil rights activists fought and still fight against conservative America for racial equality. Child labor laws were enacted because liberals fought for them. Medicare and Social Security exist today because of Liberalism. “Bleeding heart liberals” have long advocated for the homeless, the hungry, the less fortunate, and the disenfranchised. The women of America owe liberals a big thank you for their almost equal rights. “Tree hugging liberals” fight for clean air and water standards instead of favoring industrial polluters and short term profiteering that destroy God’s green earth.

Liberals believe in affordable health care for all U.S. citizens. They also believe in higher taxes for the rich and lower taxes for the middle class and the poor. Liberals love their spouses and children. Liberals faithfully attend their churches to worship God. Liberals love America and hate terrorism and have proved it by fighting in every war for this country. Liberals come in all shapes, sizes, and color. They are found in the ranks of Protestants, Catholics, Jews, agnostics, and atheists.

Conservative Republican policies generally favor the wealthy and ignore the needs of the poor. Their policies are so often greed-driven, with no concern for the environmental or societal consequences for their exploitive actions. Jesus plainly taught that the love of money is the root of all evil. So, Christians can go after the various “fruit” of sin in our society, but they won’t see the real change for the better until the axe is laid to the root. Christians should oppose greed-driven policies as a primary point of political concern.

I am sick of reading letters to the editor and editorials that paint Democrats and liberals as anti-God and anti-American and that portray conservative Republicans as the only true Christian patriots. We know that many Democrats are pro-choice and many support gay issues and this troubles most evangelicals. Democrats also support causes that should be of Christian concern that go untouched by Republicans. I have listed some in the above paragraphs. True prophetic vision sees that there is great need for repentance on the left and the right. The effects of powerful lobbyists, special interest groups, greed and corruption abound on both sides of the aisles of Congress. God sees it all and so should Christians. Christian voters need to see that God’s heart breaks over more than just a few political and moral issues. It is time to take off our blinders and mourn for the sorry state of affairs that is American politics.

Jesus was the ultimate liberal progressive revolutionary of all history. The conservative religious and social structure that He defied hated and crucified Him. They examined His life and did not like what they saw. He aligned Himself with the poor and the oppressed. He challenged the religious orthodoxy of His day. He advocated pacifism and loving our enemies. He liberated women and minorities from oppression. He healed on the Sabbath and forgave adulterers and prostitutes. He associated with drunks and other social outcasts. He rebuked the religious right of His day because they embraced the letter of the law instead of the Spirit. He loved sinners and called them to Himself. Jesus was the original Liberal. He was a progressive, and He was judged and hated for it. It was the self-righteous religionists that He rebuked and He called them hypocrites.

The primary issues of Christian Liberalism were birthed when Jesus spoke the profoundly prophetic words found in Matthew 25: 31-46. These scriptures reveal God’s heart for the poor, the sick and other neglected people through out history. Christians should read this text and judge for themselves which of the two groups mentioned there more accurately reflect the political parties of today. His Liberalism lives on today and the issues have not changed much.

I am glad that conservative Republican candidates advocate for the family and a few Christian issues, but we must quit pretending that they are the only ones that Christians should consider voting for. People should not call themselves pro-life if they are only anti-abortion and yet feel no twinge of conscience over the unfair application of capital punishment or wars fought for dubious motives. A true pro-life position cares just as passionately for the born as the un-born and views war as a last resort when all other options are exhausted.

Christians should look for candidates that will work for issues that are of importance to Christ and that can be tackled legislatively. Sadly, most of those causes have historically been opposed, ignored, and minimized by conservative Republican policy makers. They seem to dangle the moral issues carrot around election time. Then, even with a Republican controlled White House and Congress, prove themselves powerless to do anything about those issues when they convene to legislate. Issues such as eliminating poverty and homelessness in America, true equal rights for all citizens, environmental protection, a fair minimum wage, affordable health care, and lowering our infant mortality rate all go unattended. That’s just to name a few.

I have some questions for the Christian Right. Why have you not held our current elected majority officials accountable for their failure to address the full spectrum of Christian issues? Why would you vote for them again?

It is time for Christians of conscience to stand up to religious and political hypocrisy. Christians should proudly proclaim progressive values today and should advocate for the Christian Liberalism that is our heritage and our legacy.

Hulkein
10-21-2004, 05:11 PM
I would've been a liberal than too.

We have advanced so much since than that now you need a thing called moderation.

xtc
10-21-2004, 05:18 PM
I am tired of this socialist Christian angle. It is not new during World War 2 some people in intelligence circles betrayed England by giving secrets to the Soviets. Why? because they were convinced that socialism was the political embodiment of Christianity. Later when they saw what the Soviets did, some confessed, some committed suicide.

God is a Republican

Pallon
10-21-2004, 05:18 PM
http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/bushvideos/v/bushvsjesus.htm

Tsa`ah
10-21-2004, 05:22 PM
God is a replublican?

I'm trying to justify a response ...

xtc
10-21-2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Tsa`ah
God is a replublican?

I'm trying to justify a response ...

There was an article written on the topic I am try to find. If you believe that the Bible speaks for God and you examine God's actions in the Bible it more closely matches the platform/values of the Republican party then the Democratic party.

xtc
10-21-2004, 05:27 PM
Jesus a liberal I think not.


Matthew 10: 32-39
32So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; 33but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. 34"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36and a man's foes will be those of his own household. 37He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it

Tsa`ah
10-21-2004, 05:28 PM
That is wholly based on what "version" and denomination you are using as reference.

God is more of a monarch or dictator than anything.

Tsa`ah
10-21-2004, 05:32 PM
Since we're talking Christ, then yes. Christ was the definition of a Liberal.

One passage does not make him a Conservative. The whole of the NT describes Christ's effort for change, social equality, and to move away from the Law laid out in the Torah (highly conservative).

xtc
10-21-2004, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Since we're talking Christ, then yes. Christ was the definition of a Liberal.

One passage does not make him a Conservative. The whole of the NT describes Christ's effort for change, social equality, and to move away from the Law laid out in the Torah (highly conservative).

I am not sure I agree with you about Christ. There is a public perception about Christ and then there is what is in the Gospels. I personally don't think that Christ was a liberal.

[Edited on 10-21-2004 by xtc]

xtc
10-21-2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Tsa`ah
That is wholly based on what "version" and denomination you are using as reference.

God is more of a monarch or dictator than anything.

Version of what? the Bible? there are few differences between the different translations of the Bible and many of the denominations in Christianity use the same version of the Bible.

Keller
10-21-2004, 05:47 PM
I like the part in Leviticus where God tells us to take the babies of our enemies, smash their heads against rocks, and bathe our feet in their blood.

God is more of a Stalin like figure in that passage.

Isogete all you want and you'll see many different versions of God.

Keep doing your thang.

Ilvane
10-21-2004, 05:49 PM
God give you free will, but basically if you don't believe in him you are damned to eternal damnation.

Jesus forgave, healed, was charitable, was caring of the poor rather the rich, etc..

I doubt Jesus would have been a Republican.

-A

DianaBanana
10-21-2004, 05:51 PM
He wore birkenstocks, of course he was a liberal. :P

jk btw. ;)

xtc
10-21-2004, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Ilvane
God give you free will, but basically if you don't believe in him you are damned to eternal damnation.

Jesus forgave, healed, was charitable, was caring of the poor rather the rich, etc..

I doubt Jesus would have been a Republican.

-A

Republicans don't forgive? aren't charitable? Don't give to the poor?

Tsa`ah
10-21-2004, 05:53 PM
Not unless they get a tax break.

xtc
10-21-2004, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Not unless they get a tax break.

Don't tell me you actually have a sense of humour?

Tsa`ah
10-21-2004, 06:02 PM
I have no idea what you are talking about.

xtc
10-21-2004, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by Tsa`ah
I have no idea what you are talking about.

I thought it was a funny line and that you were attempting humour but alas I was wrong.

Chadj
10-21-2004, 06:08 PM
Tsa'ah is so very right. :lol2:

Also, xtc and I totally disagree once more, and I am driven to feel that... Well.. they are a retard.

xtc
10-21-2004, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Chadj
Tsa'ah is so very right. :lol2:

Also, xtc and I totally disagree once more, and I am driven to feel that... Well.. they are a retard.

hey chadj who is a retard?

GSTamral
10-21-2004, 06:28 PM
<<
I doubt Jesus would have been a Republican.
>>

Jesus would not have been a part of the political process. To try and tie church and state through any methodology is wrong.

Jesus embraced many of the values that define liberalism based on the textures. Jesus was supposedly the embodyment of god. We are not.

In a perfect world, with perfect everything, socialism is the theoretical goal.

Many of the characteristics the author seems to use as differences between Conservatives and Liberals are vastly inaccurate.

Conservatives place family values on a much higher altar than do liberals. Conservatives believe in accountability to a much higher level than do liberals.

Jesus believed in forgiveness if there was repentance. This he certainly shares with the ideas of the liberals. Conservatives believe in a structured system of punishment based on the crime.

It was a very conservative Republican who abolished slavery. But it was a liberal that came up with the idea of affirmative action, which once again, creates a disparity in the playing field.

Conservatives are not cold hearted bastards. There are elements of both sides that display those traits of stupidity and hatred.

It's specifically rhetorical bullshit like this that people use to try and swing voters. People should vote based on the issues at hand, not by associating God to either side. To even assert a political association to Jesus is both ignorant and disrespectful. It is one of the reasons I won't vote for Bush. But people writing bullshit like this creates only further apathy for me to the ideals of liberalism.

If they need things like this to get elected, then they don't deserve to be elected.

Latrinsorm
10-21-2004, 06:39 PM
Defining Jesus as a liberal or conservative is tricky. On the one hand, he does away with a lot of the current social norms and laws, but he's doing so because he's bringing back what God intended (and he would know). So I'd say if you don't believe he was God, then he's a liberal (even though he wails on that poor fig tree). Otherwise, he's the ultimate conservative.

For future reference, Ilvane, I'd recommend cropping the actual Jesus reference so we don't have to slog through paragraphs extolling the virtues of the liberal movement.

Chadj
10-21-2004, 07:10 PM
<<hey chadj who is a retard?>>

You are obviously more stupid than I originally believed.

Try reading the post again.

In case you fail again, I will try to type it out in caps for you.

XTC IS A RETARD.

That better?

Chelle
10-21-2004, 08:59 PM
I am still trying to figure out why it matters whether Jesus was a liberal or conservative. :?: I don't think he was either one.

xtc
10-21-2004, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by Chadj
<<hey chadj who is a retard?>>

You are obviously more stupid than I originally believed.

Try reading the post again.

In case you fail again, I will try to type it out in caps for you.

XTC IS A RETARD.

That better?

Chadj, I was giving you an opportunity to graciously back out of the insult you little weasal.

xtc
10-21-2004, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Chelle
I am still trying to figure out why it matters whether Jesus was a liberal or conservative. :?: I don't think he was either one.

He was a Buddhist and I am being serious.

Tsa`ah
10-21-2004, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by GSTamral
Jesus would not have been a part of the political process. To try and tie church and state through any methodology is wrong.

Ok, agreeing so far.


Jesus embraced many of the values that define liberalism based on the textures. Jesus was supposedly the embodyment of god. We are not.

Still agreeing.


In a perfect world, with perfect everything, socialism is the theoretical goal.

Borderline miracle, three passages in and I still agree.


Many of the characteristics the author seems to use as differences between Conservatives and Liberals are vastly inaccurate.

Eh, matter of opinion and perception. Can't agree or disagree.


Conservatives place family values on a much higher altar than do liberals. Conservatives believe in accountability to a much higher level than do liberals.

Bam! I knew a load of shit would drop sooner or later. What the fuck?

You base this on what exactly? Yourself as a conservative father? You think a conservative places family on a higher shelf than I do. That would be akin to me saying conservatives are child abusers. Do you actually think before you post garbage like that?


It was a very conservative Republican who abolished slavery. But it was a liberal that came up with the idea of affirmative action, which once again, creates a disparity in the playing field.

Now now Tam, you know Lincoln was a Wig. I will concede in advance that the Wigs eventually became Republicans. I will not concede that Lincoln freed the slaves. Lincoln signed the paper that made it so. He wanted them shipped back to Africa.

You of course know that it was also a Wig Senator by the name of John J. Crittenden who proposed an amendment that would legalize slavary and remove the power to abolish it from the hands of the Federal Government. I just love your slant on things.

You also know that the Dems then were for what the Republicans stand for now. State rights and anti-consolidation of power to the Federal government. The Republicans were the then "liberal" party. Also know that the Dems were split during the civil war. Copperheads and War dems. Copperheads being the Southern Dems and War Dems belonging to the north and in Support of Lincoln.

Affirmative action? You do understand that it was the Reagan Administration that kicked off the concept of compulsory hiring goals right?

Ravenstorm
10-21-2004, 10:26 PM
Oh, and Tamral... While you're busy not responding to Tsa'ah, I'm still waiting a link to that 2001 bill you keep bringing up. The one where you claim Kerry voted against increased funding for hydroelectric power. You don't even need to link it. Just give me the number of the bill. SJ... ?

Raven