Monk questions!

[Tgo01]

Which stats are least useful for a monk, ie which stat(s) should I tank?

Can Soothing Word (1205) be self cast to remove like rage or whatnot? If so can one also provide oneself with shear fear immunity with 25 ranks of telepathy lore if they cast it before they are shear feared?

Which lores do monks usually get? I'm assuming 75 transformation lore for iron skin is most common, that would leave me with the 25 ranks necessary for shear fear resistance.

[Warriorbird]

All stats are least useful for a Monk. I'd avoid lore.

[Astray]

I tanked Influence, since that's the go-to stat to tank.

[Warriorbird]

Me too.

[Tgo01]

All stats are least useful for a Monk.

:/


I'd avoid lore.

Why for?


I tanked Influence, since that's the go-to stat to tank.

That's what I was thinking too.

[sentral]

Yeah well my monk is just transformation lore. Iam playing a semi monk so any other lore is too expensive. transformation also helps alittle bit with dragon claw. I dont think ive ever tried soothing word on myself to get rid of fear. I can cast thought lash 1210, because my logic is high and 1219 vertigo which helps with room control.

[Warriorbird]

Why for?

Spells, dodge, CM, are all worth more than the lore results.

[sentral]

I do think though i might stop transformation ranks and switch to the telepathy lore o

[Tgo01]

Yeah well my monk is just transformation lore. Iam playing a semi monk so any other lore is too expensive.

Any there any other lores that help monks besides mental lore?


Spells, dodge, CM, are all worth more than the lore results.

True. True. But assuming I can swing all of that and still have points left over for lore.

[Androidpk]

Which stats are least useful for a monk, ie which stat(s) should I tank?

Can Soothing Word (1205) be self cast to remove like rage or whatnot? If so can one also provide oneself with shear fear immunity with 25 ranks of telepathy lore if they cast it before they are shear feared?

Which lores do monks usually get? I'm assuming 75 transformation lore for iron skin is most common, that would leave me with the 25 ranks necessary for shear fear resistance.

I'm guessing this is with a capped monk?

1205 can be self cast.

[Tgo01]

I just started the monk last night, just planning ahead.

[Donquix]

I kinda tanked inf but not really, i set every stat to be at least 90. Stats for growth isn't as punishing for monks since you can get perfect self so it fills in the gaps a bit, though that's a huge investment of points so you do sacrifice your CMan plan or at least its timeline pretty significantly.

whatever mns gets. no monk minor mental spells are affected. it's nothing really great for lore benefits in spirit.

i did 5 ranks of transform lore for a long time, then aimed for 15 ranks at 50. Those are breakpoints for 1202, and at 50 with natural monk scaling + 15 ranks will put you in brig equiv. but honestly i'm rarely, if ever, touched in melee so it ends up being pretty inconsequential. that's uac with 1x twc (i stopped at 50), 2x dodge + a wizard spell up, almost always just walking around in offensive. I did a fairly aggressive magical build (.6-.7x spells). 1220 by 23ish, and then shot for 120 by 60. I literally stopped training everything besides spells for a while to get 120 more around 50, then caught the other skills back up.

i've always had 20 ranks of ambush. That was mainly from when i was using THW for aimed attacks and when i changed to UAC i just kind of left it for a little help aiming punches. MoC i had 10 then bumped up to 25 ranks to get the "full" offset for 1/2 opponents of FoF.

other then that training is pretty straight forward (2x dodge and pf, 1x percep, .5x climb and swim, .5x hp) now that i have 120 i'm working on getting some spell burst ranks so I'm getting 20 ranks each of MiU/AS. Also can use some random imbedibles and such now, always nice. Trying to decide if after that I'll maybe do some MC. MMC seems more monkish but SMC is generally a bit more useful. Another option is picking up some FA/Survival (up to .49x...stupid skinning tasks) combined, still deciding that. If i don't do the MC/skinning skills it's back to every spare point going into spells until at least 50ish MnM (to max 1208 TD scaling). I also run max logic enhancives so my vertigo is (mostly) reliable but another 30 ranks or so would really make it so with the 40 logic bonus i'm rocking. Reliable not just in actually warding things with higher TD, but also more consistently getting the higher thresholds needed for the knockdown, etc. Plus that gets me provoke so i can help other people! I"M HELPING!

My initial near-cap goals are full: max 1208, .49x survival/fa, 25 of a mana share, if those those things are not done already, then working on bumping pf+dodge to 3x each. I might work on getting 101 spell ranks immediately just cause why the fuck not? Not sure if I'd go up to WoF or just dump it all into MnM. WoF would be nice for bandits, foraging tasks, and the like for a little extra protection (i already throw up 102 in those situations now, then stop it when i'm done or have the bandits disabled with vertigo)

[Tgo01]

Only 2x dodging? I thought monks were supposed to 3x?

[Donquix]

some people say that. i think they're dumb, you shouldn't have any problems with physical attacks at 2x. I always have a wizard spellup, as I have a hunch you will as well unless you're purposefully going full on hard mode, but again i don't even bother stancing or feinting 80% of the time. Just seems like a waste of points for little to no benefit. I also didn't pick up emastery, same reason...i have no problems with physical attacks, making myself MORE immune to them doesn't help me. I need TD and reliable ways to deal with swarms and spellcasters, dodge doesn't help with that.

[Tgo01]

Well dropping down to 2x dodge would certainly free up a lot of points.

[Donquix]

Well dropping down to 2x dodge would certainly free up a lot of points.

dumb is a bit of an overstatement. The one really nice benefit of 3x dodge is you can, with the same degree physical safety, run mind over body instead of focus barrier. Then go cman crazy. But, the only active cmans I use are surge, burst, and feint. feint is already cheap, and i just alternate burst and surge so one is always up and i'm not ever paying the penalty for soft cooldown. i also only have to feint on things that are tanked casters anyhow, other things i just punch in the fucking face or 1207. Bandits are another notable one where the max dodge might come in handy but...meh, having 120 alone is worth what...like 20ish ranks of dodge in terms of defense?

like, don't get me wrong...i'm pretty excited at the prospect of one day being 3x pf, 3x dodge, and all my spells i just see very little ACTUAL benefit from the sizable dodge investment.

[Androidpk]

I'm going to challenge Donquix to a monk off.

[Androidpk]

Here's what I have at 74.

http://i42.tinypic.com/2nsrq61.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/11gpwxt.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/x5coyu.jpg

[Donquix]

I'm going to challenge Donquix to a monk off.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWyoS8fppB0

[Versin]

The lores are pretty crappy for monks and more post-cap goals. There are thresholds at 5, 6, 7, 10, and 15 of ML:T for various spells. I went with 6 myself.

[sentral]

I also run just about max logic enhansives on my monk. Symbol of supremacy realy helps and Iam much better against the undead. Thought lash and vertigo usually work even in monsters 8 to 10 levels higher. I dont train in perfect self as I think other cm's are more usefull, like evade mastery and slippery mind

[Tgo01]

Awesome. Thanks for the advice everyone.

I haven't decided yet if I'm going Voln or GoS. I don't really care for either one but they seem like better choices for a monk than CoL. Voln is nice for undead and stuff but you can attack undead as a monk even without blesses, right?

Do the damage and crit weighting sigils work with unarmed combat?

[Androidpk]

They do but gloves/boots and the UAC system follows a different crit formula. Tier level is more important for UAC rather than weighted weapons because instead of being a completely random roll for the amount of weighting added to your attack it always leans towards max crit ranks, especially on tier 3.

GoS works great for monks since you can easily train 3x PF it compliments the coat of using sigils nicely.

You need blessable gloves or boots to hit undead unless you join voln.

[Donquix]

I also run just about max logic enhansives on my monk. Symbol of supremacy realy helps and Iam much better against the undead. Thought lash and vertigo usually work even in monsters 8 to 10 levels higher. I dont train in perfect self as I think other cm's are more usefull, like evade mastery and slippery mind

what are you using instead and are you doing UAC or another combat style? evade mastery seems...i dunno, useless outside of maybe bandits. You already should basically be unable to be hit so what does it matter if you evade outright or they can't hit you through the as/ds check? slippery mind maybe if you're not doing uac but if you are...you're giving up krynch. which seems :(


They do but gloves/boots and the UAC system follows a different crit formula. Tier level is more important for UAC rather than weighted weapons because instead of being a completely random roll for the amount of weighting added to your attack it always leans towards max crit ranks, especially on tier 3.

GoS works great for monks since you can easily train 3x PF it compliments the coat of using sigils nicely.

You need blessable gloves or boots to hit undead unless you join voln.

in which case, you can hit undead without a bless but you don't get the stats from your gloves/boots (none of them. no flares, enchant, weighting, etc.) unless they're blessed.

i'm voln, sometimes I do wish i was col (so i could be lazy, and the extra couple td) or sunfist for the TD and sigil of escape when shit hits the fan, since monks are lacking in escapes really.

symbol of sleep is super nice for swarms, assuming you don't tank influence too much. vertigo is nice and all but a manaless, instant sit the fuck down button comes in handy.

[Tgo01]

So...rolling krynch...I was really looking forward to this skill because at first I thought it was just a single rank CMAN with a 100% activation rate. Then I saw it was 3 ranks so I was thinking "Okay, 33% activation rate per rank."

My monk can only get 2 ranks in it at this point and I've noticed it rarely ever activates. Can this only activate on the very first attack on a new critter? Do you need to have excellent positioning on the previous critter before it activates?

For everyone saying how this is the one CMAN all monks should get it's looking pretty lackluster at the moment :/

[Warriorbird]

So...rolling krynch...I was really looking forward to this skill because at first I thought it was just a single rank CMAN with a 100% activation rate. Then I saw it was 3 ranks so I was thinking "Okay, 33% activation rate per rank."

My monk can only get 2 ranks in it at this point and I've noticed it rarely ever activates. Can this only activate on the very first attack on a new critter? Do you need to have excellent positioning on the previous critter before it activates?

For everyone saying how this is the one CMAN all monks should get it's looking pretty lackluster at the moment :/

I still cling to the Masteries as the "CMANs all monks should get."

[Androidpk]

If you are on tier 3 on critter A then rolling krynch will give you the chance to automatically start at tier 2 or 3 on the first attack on critter B,C,D, ect.

I think it might take into account MOC but I forget. Finros talked about it on the officials.

You only have a certain amount of time where you can use this after you hit something, 7 seconds I believe, so it works best in areas that swarm nicely. I know in a grimswarm camp it was going off almost non-stop, giving me multiple one puunch kills in a row. I think my record is somewhere around 9.

[Androidpk]

I still cling to the Masteries as the "CMANs only monks should get."


This too.

[SHAFT]

So it is true..... Whirlins bow lives!

[Tgo01]

Yeah, so far I'm just not feeling it with rolling krynch, maybe it gets better at rank 3. Why does slippery mind get a bad rap for monks? It sounds pretty good on paper, assuming it goes by the armor you wear (robes) and not by the armor iron skin puts you into.

Should monks get all 3 masteries? Seems like a lot of CMAN points.

[Warriorbird]

Yeah, so far I'm just not feeling it with rolling krynch, maybe it gets better at rank 3. Why does slippery mind get a bad rap for monks? It sounds pretty good on paper, assuming it goes by the armor you wear (robes) and not by the armor iron skin puts you into.

Should monks get all 3 masteries? Seems like a lot of CMAN points.

I'd get all 3. Masteries boost stuff that nothing else does. Slippery Mind alone isn't enough to patch warding holes, though with your dedicated MA team you shouldn't have as many of those as some folks.

[Androidpk]

I tried multiple training paths and ended up preferring just getting 3 ranks of punch mastery. With krynch and aimed punches to the head I didn't need grapple or kick.

[Donquix]

Yeah, so far I'm just not feeling it with rolling krynch, maybe it gets better at rank 3. Why does slippery mind get a bad rap for monks? It sounds pretty good on paper, assuming it goes by the armor you wear (robes) and not by the armor iron skin puts you into.

Should monks get all 3 masteries? Seems like a lot of CMAN points.

krynch is pretty indispensable imo. rank 3, if you're at rank 3, you get a 65% chance to maintain tier 2, and a 35% chance to maintain tier 2. There's a penalty for uphunting, moc helps offset it.

i wouldn't get the other masteries. That's a ton of points. I open with an aimed punch hoping to proc krynch, if it works great, if it doesn't i jab to tier up. at good positioning if it's something i get good endrolls on i punch the head, and follow the tierups if it doesn't die. If it's something i can't reliably kill with a good tier, i jab again to excellent.

slippery mind has a couple problems. one, it is a martial stance so...you lose krynch. other then that its totally chance based. ideally you're avoiding being cast at entirely so it really only does something if you're in situation where you can't do that. then it has to ward you, and it has to be bad enough warding failure to matter, and only after all that you just have to cross your fingers and pray it procs, of which you only have a 1/4 chance. Same problem a lot of monk abilities have, no control pure chance.

[Tgo01]

Yeah aiming at heads with punch mastery and rolling krynch seems to work pretty well at ranks 2 and 1 respectively, can only get better from here I imagine.

Has there been any testing done on the chances the various attacks have at tiering up? The wiki just says jab has a higher chance, punch has a lower chance than jab, kick has a little chance, and it doesn't say anything about grappling tiering up.

Would 3 ranks of punch mastery be pretty much on par with jab making jab totally worthless (outside of the "leaving them open for a jab") considering they have have a 3 second round time?

Also what exactly does the followup attack do? I don't think it mentioning it on the wiki, unless I just missed it. Does it increase the DF if you use the attack mentioned? Better chance to tier up? Increase UAF? Decrease UDF?

[Jeril]

Yeah aiming at heads with punch mastery and rolling krynch seems to work pretty well at ranks 2 and 1 respectively, can only get better from here I imagine.

Has there been any testing done on the chances the various attacks have at tiering up? The wiki just says jab has a higher chance, punch has a lower chance than jab, kick has a little chance, and it doesn't say anything about grappling tiering up.

Would 3 ranks of punch mastery be pretty much on par with jab making jab totally worthless (outside of the "leaving them open for a jab") considering they have have a 3 second round time?

Also what exactly does the followup attack do? I don't think it mentioning it on the wiki, unless I just missed it. Does it increase the DF if you use the attack mentioned? Better chance to tier up? Increase UAF? Decrease UDF?

I forget where but it was stated that jab has a 50% chance of tiering up and mastery cmans only add 5% each. You also write scripts, why not write one to figure out how often you get an opening from using punch? Grapple? And kick?

If by follow up attack you mean the one needed to tier up it connects with that next tier, which helps you because of this taken from the wiki:

Tier 1 (Decent positioning): Rank 0 to Rank 5
Tier 2 (Good positioning): Rank 0 to Rank 8
Tier 3 (Excellent positioning): Rank 0 to Rank 11

There is a cap on the critical ranks you can achieve with each tier.

[Tgo01]

Oh yeah, I guess I do remember reading about crit ranks being dependent upon positioning.

When you see the messaging of something like "Your attack leaves the kobold open for a follow up kick attack!" Is that when you tier up, when you follow up with a kick attack?

[Donquix]

Oh yeah, I guess I do remember reading about crit ranks being dependent upon positioning.

When you see the messaging of something like "Your attack leaves the kobold open for a follow up kick attack!" Is that when you tier up, when you follow up with a kick attack?

yes. if it says vulnerable for X, doing X on the next attack will automatically put you at the next tier.

[Tgo01]

yes. if it says vulnerable for X, doing X on the next attack will automatically put you at the next tier.

Is that the only way to tier up? Do you still get those messages even if you're already at excellent positioning? If so is there any point to doing those follow up attacks if you're already at excellent positioning?

[Androidpk]

Is that the only way to tier up? Do you still get those messages even if you're already at excellent positioning? If so is there any point to doing those follow up attacks if you're already at excellent positioning?

Asides from krynch it is the only way to tier up. Once you are at tier 3 then all attacks hit at tier 3, so you will not get the message again.

[Roblar]

Also can tier up from using a uac command from hiding/insivi and I think a random chance even without tier up messaging, much higher when of a greater level than target.

[Tgo01]

So I'm tracking how often you get the tier up message and so far I've got 500 attacks with just jabs. Here are the results thus far:

Total attacks 500.0
Total jabs: 406 (81.2)%

The total jabs means how many times jab gave the tier up message. I also made sure the script didn't keep track of attacks if the critter died on the attack because as far as I could tell you don't get tier up messaging if the critter died on the same attack.

So, 81.2%. Either jab is really good at tiering up or level is a factor because my monk is downhunting at the moment. I suppose it's also possible that if you get a tier up message but don't use the follow up attack that you have an increased chance of getting another tier up message on the follow up attack because for these tests I'm just using the exact same attack over and over again.

Next up I'll get about 500 punches.

[Roblar]

Level is a factor. Try same level.

[Tgo01]

Level is a factor. Try same level.

Yes sir.

[Tgo01]

My monk is level 11 fighting against level 10 and 11 critters and so far with 60 attacks in he's rocking 79% tier up rate with jab.

[Androidpk]

Finros said jab has a higher tier up percentage compared to the other attacks.

[Roblar]

That is its entire purpose.

[Tgo01]

So with my level 11 monk testing on level 10 and 11 critters I have this:

Total attacks 500.0
Total jabs: 363 (72.6)%

I'm guessing against like level foes the chance to tier up with jab is 75%, probably goes up to 80%ish when you're underhunting.

Next up, punch!

[Tgo01]

Punch shit:

Total attacks 500.0
Total punches: 212 (42.4)%

Still same level and against the same critters as before.

I'm assuming punch has a 45% chance to tier up. With rank 3 punch mastery that makes it 60%. Jab and punch have the same round time but punch has a much better DF and with rank 3 punch mastery makes it even better. Think rank 3 punch mastery should replace jab or does jab still serve a purpose?

[Jeril]

If you are at 42% now after 500, you are more likely to go down with more attempts then up. Why not do another 500 and see where it puts you?

[Tgo01]

If you are at 42% now after 500, you are more likely to go down with more attempts then up. Why not do another 500 and see where it puts you?

Why would the number go down? :/

[Jeril]

Why would the number go down? :/

Just your luck, although it could be 42.5% for all we know.

[Tgo01]

Just your luck, although it could be 42.5% for all we know.

True. I thought 500 was a good sample size but I can do another 500 I suppose.

[Tgo01]

500 grapples done and done.

Total attacks 500.0
Total grapples: 153 (30.599999999999998)%

Yeah so most likely it's:

Jab: 70-75%
Punch: 40-45%
Grapple: 30-35%

Still wondering if punch mastery 3 makes jab obsolete. 15% better chance to tier up is nice but man the DF on jab blows.

[Androidpk]

Punch shit:

Total attacks 500.0
Total punches: 212 (42.4)%

Still same level and against the same critters as before.

I'm assuming punch has a 45% chance to tier up. With rank 3 punch mastery that makes it 60%. Jab and punch have the same round time but punch has a much better DF and with rank 3 punch mastery makes it even better. Think rank 3 punch mastery should replace jab or does jab still serve a purpose?

Punch does have a better DF but you can't crit on tier 1 attacks. Instead of comparing tier up % you should compare average damage per strike and see how much of a difference there is.

Also, hunting above your level causes the tier up chance to drop fairly fast. I tried the Bowels when I was around 70 and couldn't tier up with jab on anything.

[Donquix]

Punch does have a better DF but you can't crit on tier 1 attacks. Instead of comparing tier up % you should compare average damage per strike and see how much of a difference there is.

Also, hunting above your level causes the tier up chance to drop fairly fast. I tried the Bowels when I was around 70 and couldn't tier up with jab on anything.

As an example i just parsed my logs a bit from things i hunted for a long time. This isn't the most accurate but, it's basically average kill time per my level difference to the same creature. If i one shot it with punch because of krynch, it counts it as 4 seconds, if i have to jab 10 times, then kill with an aimed kick, that's 36 seconds. etc. I'm pretty sure there's a bad log line for some reason popping up for the 4 level difference, hence the random "22" exactly. Too lazy to fix it, you get the idea. 9 = creature was 9 levels over me at the time. It should also be noted that, for a LARGE part of this i was NOT training combat skills AT ALL (i didn't train brawl, cm, etc. for like 6 levels while i dumped everything into MnS for shroud)

creature level diff|average kill time
9|20.72
8|20.5789
7|20.3409
6|19.614
5|18.5455
4|22
3|17.162
2|16.0276
1|15.6752
0|14.8599
-1|14.9717
-2|14.6095
-3|14.5081


edit: another creature around the same level, that's softer
level diff|average kill time
8|16.3913
7|15.05
6|16.75
5|14.4623
4|15.3889
3|12.65
2|13.9774
1|12.3564
0|11.917
-1|11.2661
-2|11.2048
-3|11.0645
-4|10.7667

[Androidpk]

Yeah, the penalty to tiering up against critters older than you was added after monks were in game IIRC. There was a monk named Ying that was underhunting by quite a lot and Finros was like enough of that!

[Tgo01]

Any research been done into randomly tiering up? Roblar mentioned this earlier and I noticed it just now during my kick testing. One attack he's at decent positioning, no tier up message at all, next attack he's at good positioning. I'm doing these tests with no CMANs at all.

I wonder if different attacks have different chances to tier up. Hmm...something else I can test for I suppose.

[Aganii]

is it possibly related to the endroll?

[Tgo01]

is it possibly related to the endroll?

It might help but there still must be a huge random factor to it because I've only noticed it that one time and I've had endrolls of over 300 and didn't see a tier up on those attacks.

[Androidpk]

I've only noticed that when I had a number of levels over my target.

[Riltus]

>Forgive me if this is posted elsewhere, but what are the known methods to increase your attack tier? It seems like successful UAC attacks (namely Jab) and ambushing are the only methods.

There is also a "lucky tier-up chance" possible on any strike, which is influenced by level difference. When attacking something significantly under your level, you'll almost always get to tier two immediately.

>I know its mostly wishful thinking, but is there any reason Bind, Web, Prayer of Holding, etc do not grant a tier bonus as well?

Such spells/status effects already grant a significant combat bonus, both in general and in the UCS specifically. The chance for a lucky tier-up, or to get a tier-up strike opportunity, are both influenced by the endroll, which will naturally be higher when the target is immobilized. -- GS4-FINROS



Mark

[Tgo01]

Mark

Interesting stuff about the lucky tier-up. Also interesting stuff about the tier-up opportunity being influenced by endroll.

Since endroll plays a role that makes punch mastery even more effective at tiering up since you get +5 MM per rank.

[Androidpk]

Huh.. I guess that means glove enchant is more important than I thought.

[Tgo01]

500 kicks!

Total kicks: 53 (10.6)%

I'm gonna start over and break it down by endrolls now.

[Androidpk]

That's a pretty big drop compared to punch and grapple.

[Donquix]

for what it's worth I was doing a bounty today and when i was punching things ~40 levels under I was starting at good (no krynch proc) on basically every one of them.

fucking panthers/vipers.

[Androidpk]

for what it's worth I was doing a bounty today and when i was punching things ~40 levels under I was starting at good (no krynch proc) on basically every one of them.

fucking panthers/vipers.

It's helpful in certain situations. If I had a bandit task in an area with low level critters I'd tap them while waiting for bandits to pop out.

[JackWhisper]

Being a monk amounts to this skill level. Except all dudes. No chicks.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qto_Sx4Id6k

[Tgo01]

This is what I have so far with just jabs and breaking it down by end roll.

This is with my monk being level 12 and killing critters that are level 11 and 13.



Total attacks 592.0

End roll 101-120 data:
Total attacks: 77.0
Tier up count: 6 (7.79)%

End roll 121-140 data:
Total attacks: 77.0
Tier up count: 51 (66.23)%

End roll 141-160 data:
Total attacks: 124.0
Tier up count: 91 (73.39)%

End roll 161-180 data:
Total attacks: 110.0
Tier up count: 73 (66.36)%

End roll 181-200 data:
Total attacks: 86.0
Tier up count: 57 (66.28)%

End roll 201-220 data:
Total attacks: 61.0
Tier up count: 37 (60.66)%

End roll 221-240 data:
Total attacks: 38.0
Tier up count: 25 (65.79)%

End roll 241-260 data:
Total attacks: 12.0
Tier up count: 10 (83.33)%

End roll 261-280 data:
Total attacks: 5.0
Tier up count: 1 (20.0)%

End roll 281-300 data:
Total attacks: 2.0
Tier up count: 2 (100.0)%

End roll 301-320: No Data
End roll 321-340: No Data
End roll 341-360: No Data
End roll 361-380: No Data
End roll 381-400: No Data
End roll 401-420: No Data
End roll 421-440: No Data
End roll 441-460: No Data
End roll 461-480: No Data
End roll 481-500: No Data
End roll over 500: No Data
Tier up on 101 not observed.
Tier up on 102 not observed.
Tier up on 103 not observed.
Tier up on 104 not observed.
Tier up on 105 not observed.
Tier up on 106 not observed.
Tier up on 107 not observed.
Tier up on 108 not observed.
Tier up on 109 not observed.
Tier up on 110 not observed.
Tier up on 111 not observed.
Tier up on 112 not observed.
Tier up on 113 not observed.
Tier up on 114 not observed.
Tier up on 115 not observed.
Tier up on 116 not observed.
Tier up on 117 not observed.
Tier up on 118 observed.
Tier up on 119 not observed.
Tier up on 120 observed.


After about 50 attacks in the 101-120 range and only 4 being tier ups I started thinking that perhaps there is a minimum end roll needed to get the tier up message so that's when I started keeping track if an end roll of 101-120 actually gave a tier up message.

So far just seen 118 and 120 but I'm assuming 119 can tier up as well. Obviously this isn't going to be perfect because most of my end rolls seem to be 240 or less.

I do notice that except for the 141-160 bracket and anything over 200 that the percentages are pretty darn close so it's possible it's not a linear progression but rather there are breakpoints in end rolls that help; like 101-200 has 50% chance, 201-300 has 60% chance, etc etc.

[Tgo01]

Yay more stats!



>Total attacks 2619.0

End roll 101-120 data:
Total attacks: 322.0
Tier up count: 24 (7.45)%

End roll 121-140 data:
Total attacks: 387.0
Tier up count: 250 (64.6)%

End roll 141-160 data:
Total attacks: 489.0
Tier up count: 323 (66.05)%

End roll 161-180 data:
Total attacks: 481.0
Tier up count: 321 (66.74)%

End roll 181-200 data:
Total attacks: 415.0
Tier up count: 280 (67.47)%

End roll 201-220 data:
Total attacks: 247.0
Tier up count: 167 (67.61)%

End roll 221-240 data:
Total attacks: 148.0
Tier up count: 100 (67.57)%

End roll 241-260 data:
Total attacks: 68.0
Tier up count: 46 (67.65)%

End roll 261-280 data:
Total attacks: 34.0
Tier up count: 21 (61.76)%

End roll 281-300 data:
Total attacks: 23.0
Tier up count: 10 (43.48)%

End roll 301-320 data:
Total attacks: 3.0
Tier up count: 3 (100.0)%

End roll 321-340 data:
Total attacks: 2.0
Tier up count: 1 (50.0)%

End roll 341-360: No Data

End roll 361-380: No Data

End roll 381-400: No Data

End roll 401-420: No Data

End roll 421-440: No Data

End roll 441-460: No Data

End roll 461-480: No Data

End roll 481-500: No Data

End roll over 500: No Data
Tier up on 101 not observed.
Tier up on 102 not observed.
Tier up on 103 not observed.
Tier up on 104 not observed.
Tier up on 105 not observed.
Tier up on 106 not observed.
Tier up on 107 not observed.
Tier up on 108 not observed.
Tier up on 109 not observed.
Tier up on 110 not observed.
Tier up on 111 not observed.
Tier up on 112 not observed.
Tier up on 113 not observed.
Tier up on 114 not observed.
Tier up on 115 not observed.
Tier up on 116 not observed.
Tier up on 117 not observed.
Tier up on 118 observed.
Tier up on 119 observed.
Tier up on 120 observed.


So far the lowest end roll I've observed a tier up chance on was 118, that would account for why the 101-120 end roll stats are so low.

Other than that though there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of variation all the way up to end roll of 280, granted there isn't a whole lot of data yet for 260+. I dunno, just not seeing the increased tier up chance with higher end rolls yet. Maybe jab has a flat rate and the other forms of attacks benefit from higher end rolls. Well I take that back, there does seem to be a very slight increase with higher end rolls.

I'll give jabs a couple thousand more tests before punching onto punch.

Also what does TWC do for monks again? Just DS?

[Donquix]

Yay more stats!



>Total attacks 2619.0

End roll 101-120 data:
Total attacks: 322.0
Tier up count: 24 (7.45)%

End roll 121-140 data:
Total attacks: 387.0
Tier up count: 250 (64.6)%

End roll 141-160 data:
Total attacks: 489.0
Tier up count: 323 (66.05)%

End roll 161-180 data:
Total attacks: 481.0
Tier up count: 321 (66.74)%

End roll 181-200 data:
Total attacks: 415.0
Tier up count: 280 (67.47)%

End roll 201-220 data:
Total attacks: 247.0
Tier up count: 167 (67.61)%

End roll 221-240 data:
Total attacks: 148.0
Tier up count: 100 (67.57)%

End roll 241-260 data:
Total attacks: 68.0
Tier up count: 46 (67.65)%

End roll 261-280 data:
Total attacks: 34.0
Tier up count: 21 (61.76)%

End roll 281-300 data:
Total attacks: 23.0
Tier up count: 10 (43.48)%

End roll 301-320 data:
Total attacks: 3.0
Tier up count: 3 (100.0)%

End roll 321-340 data:
Total attacks: 2.0
Tier up count: 1 (50.0)%

End roll 341-360: No Data

End roll 361-380: No Data

End roll 381-400: No Data

End roll 401-420: No Data

End roll 421-440: No Data

End roll 441-460: No Data

End roll 461-480: No Data

End roll 481-500: No Data

End roll over 500: No Data
Tier up on 101 not observed.
Tier up on 102 not observed.
Tier up on 103 not observed.
Tier up on 104 not observed.
Tier up on 105 not observed.
Tier up on 106 not observed.
Tier up on 107 not observed.
Tier up on 108 not observed.
Tier up on 109 not observed.
Tier up on 110 not observed.
Tier up on 111 not observed.
Tier up on 112 not observed.
Tier up on 113 not observed.
Tier up on 114 not observed.
Tier up on 115 not observed.
Tier up on 116 not observed.
Tier up on 117 not observed.
Tier up on 118 observed.
Tier up on 119 observed.
Tier up on 120 observed.


So far the lowest end roll I've observed a tier up chance on was 118, that would account for why the 101-120 end roll stats are so low.

Other than that though there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of variation all the way up to end roll of 280, granted there isn't a whole lot of data yet for 260+. I dunno, just not seeing the increased tier up chance with higher end rolls yet. Maybe jab has a flat rate and the other forms of attacks benefit from higher end rolls. Well I take that back, there does seem to be a very slight increase with higher end rolls.

I'll give jabs a couple thousand more tests before punching onto punch.

Also what does TWC do for monks again? Just DS?

yup, and not much of it. believe it's still just the 1 rank for +5 ds, if you're >= .5x you get +15 DS. I 1xed to 51 then stopped forevers. You get more for training but it's pretty minuscule.

[Roblar]

Also boosts Brace (1214), allowing a 2nd chance to parry an attack for double open handed combatants trained in TWC.

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Brace_(1214)

[Tgo01]

Also boosts Brace (1214), allowing a 2nd chance to parry an attack for double open handed combatants trained in TWC.

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Brace_(1214)

Oh man, insane evade plus 2 chances to parry? Do I even need DS?

Any idea how well trained one must be in TWC for the double parry chance?

[Androidpk]

Just 1 rank I think.

[Tgo01]

Just 1 rank I think.

I think I can swing that.

[Androidpk]

I would wait for confirmation from Donquix before spending all those training points.

[Middian]

I can confirm 1 rank of TWC for parry. On wether more ranks increase the chance is another story.

[Donquix]

I can confirm 1 rank of TWC for parry. On wether more ranks increase the chance is another story.

yeah i'm not sure on the chance offhand. i'm assuming it factors into parry chance for the offhand but really don't know. i don't see DS, parried or not, being a problem any time soon so i stopped when i got enough to keep the +15 DS mark to cap. It's on the short list to fully 2x at cap, if for no other reason because I'll have a ton of PTP coming it and it's so cheap. going from 50-200 ranks is something like...meh, now i'll basically be more unhittable.

[Androidpk]

yeah i'm not sure on the chance offhand. i'm assuming it factors into parry chance for the offhand but really don't know. i don't see DS, parried or not, being a problem any time soon so i stopped when i got enough to keep the +15 DS mark to cap. It's on the short list to fully 2x at cap, if for no other reason because I'll have a ton of PTP coming it and it's so cheap. going from 50-200 ranks is something like...meh, now i'll basically be more unhittable.

What level are you now?

[Donquix]

What level are you now?

upper 60's.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDK9QqIzhwk&t=93s

[Androidpk]

Dang, I thought you were higher level than me.

[Donquix]

Dang, I thought you were higher level than me.

hey i just rolled the guy in november, give me time!

[Tgo01]

Last jab data dump:



>Total attacks 3716.0

End roll 101-120 data:
Total attacks: 435.0
Tier up count: 34 (7.82)%

End roll 121-140 data:
Total attacks: 538.0
Tier up count: 346 (64.31)%

End roll 141-160 data:
Total attacks: 693.0
Tier up count: 453 (65.37)%

End roll 161-180 data:
Total attacks: 658.0
Tier up count: 439 (66.72)%

End roll 181-200 data:
Total attacks: 576.0
Tier up count: 388 (67.36)%

End roll 201-220 data:
Total attacks: 365.0
Tier up count: 237 (64.93)%

End roll 221-240 data:
Total attacks: 227.0
Tier up count: 157 (69.16)%

End roll 241-260 data:
Total attacks: 127.0
Tier up count: 87 (68.5)%

End roll 261-280 data:
Total attacks: 61.0
Tier up count: 36 (59.02)%

End roll 281-300 data:
Total attacks: 30.0
Tier up count: 14 (46.67)%

End roll 301-320 data:
Total attacks: 4.0
Tier up count: 4 (100.0)%

End roll 321-340 data:
Total attacks: 2.0
Tier up count: 1 (50.0)%

Tier up on 101 not observed.
Tier up on 102 not observed.
Tier up on 103 not observed.
Tier up on 104 not observed.
Tier up on 105 not observed.
Tier up on 106 not observed.
Tier up on 107 not observed.
Tier up on 108 not observed.
Tier up on 109 not observed.
Tier up on 110 not observed.
Tier up on 111 not observed.
Tier up on 112 not observed.
Tier up on 113 not observed.
Tier up on 114 not observed.
Tier up on 115 not observed.
Tier up on 116 not observed.
Tier up on 117 not observed.
Tier up on 118 observed.
Tier up on 119 observed.
Tier up on 120 observed.


Conclusion thus far:

End roll plays a role but not a huge role. I think there is enough data from end rolls 121 through 200 to determine that end roll gave ~3% better chance to tier up between those data points.

[Aganii]

Thanks for posting all this. I'm curious if it has a greater effect on the other attacks

[Androidpk]

hey i just rolled the guy in november, give me time!

I was thinking you might have been that Ratboner guy from the officials.

[Tgo01]

Punch data dump. I didn't do as many tests as I wanted to do but my monk leveled and I didn't want the stats to be skewed by having different levels mixed in. Going to be doing tests for grapple and kick on the same critters so my monk will be one level higher than when he did the jab and punch tests but ah well, it'll be close enough.



>Total attacks 2169.0

End roll 101-117 data:
Total attacks: 304.0
Tier up count: 3 (0.99)%

End roll 118-120 data:
Total attacks: 53.0
Tier up count: 11 (20.75)%

End roll 121-140 data:
Total attacks: 410.0
Tier up count: 137 (33.41)%

End roll 141-160 data:
Total attacks: 414.0
Tier up count: 147 (35.51)%

End roll 161-180 data:
Total attacks: 336.0
Tier up count: 130 (38.69)%

End roll 181-200 data:
Total attacks: 309.0
Tier up count: 131 (42.39)%

End roll 201-220 data:
Total attacks: 158.0
Tier up count: 61 (38.61)%

End roll 221-240 data:
Total attacks: 98.0
Tier up count: 36 (36.73)%

End roll 241-260 data:
Total attacks: 48.0
Tier up count: 20 (41.67)%

End roll 261-280 data:
Total attacks: 25.0
Tier up count: 12 (48.0)%

End roll 281-300 data:
Total attacks: 7.0
Tier up count: 2 (28.57)%

End roll 301-320 data:
Total attacks: 7.0
Tier up count: 1 (14.29)%

Tier up on 101 not observed.
Tier up on 102 not observed.
Tier up on 103 not observed.
Tier up on 104 not observed.
Tier up on 105 not observed.
Tier up on 106 not observed.
Tier up on 107 not observed.
Tier up on 108 not observed.
Tier up on 109 not observed.
Tier up on 110 not observed.
Tier up on 111 not observed.
Tier up on 112 not observed.
Tier up on 113 not observed.
Tier up on 114 not observed.
Tier up on 115 observed.
Tier up on 116 not observed.
Tier up on 117 not observed.
Tier up on 118 observed.
Tier up on 119 observed.
Tier up on 120 observed.


First thing I noticed is I got a tier up chance on an end roll of 115, lowest I saw on jab was 118.

Punch tier up chance seems to be affected by end roll more than jab does.

[Androidpk]

That is with like level targets?

[Tgo01]

That is with like level targets?

My monk was level 12 attacking level 11 and 13 critters.

[Tgo01]

About to level up again so dumping the grapple stats before I do:



>Total attacks 3075.0

End roll 101-117 data:
Total attacks: 318.0
Tier up count: 35 (11.01)%

End roll 118-120 data:
Total attacks: 69.0
Tier up count: 17 (24.64)%

End roll 121-140 data:
Total attacks: 517.0
Tier up count: 145 (28.05)%

End roll 141-160 data:
Total attacks: 510.0
Tier up count: 172 (33.73)%

End roll 161-180 data:
Total attacks: 530.0
Tier up count: 164 (30.94)%

End roll 181-200 data:
Total attacks: 452.0
Tier up count: 151 (33.41)%

End roll 201-220 data:
Total attacks: 295.0
Tier up count: 92 (31.19)%

End roll 221-240 data:
Total attacks: 173.0
Tier up count: 59 (34.1)%

End roll 241-260 data:
Total attacks: 99.0
Tier up count: 28 (28.28)%

End roll 261-280 data:
Total attacks: 67.0
Tier up count: 19 (28.36)%

End roll 281-300 data:
Total attacks: 35.0
Tier up count: 8 (22.86)%

End roll 301-320 data:
Total attacks: 8.0
Tier up count: 1 (12.5)%

End roll 321-340 data:
Total attacks: 2.0
Tier up count: 0 (0.0)%

Tier up on 101 not observed.
Tier up on 102 not observed.
Tier up on 103 not observed.
Tier up on 104 not observed.
Tier up on 105 not observed.
Tier up on 106 not observed.
Tier up on 107 not observed.
Tier up on 108 not observed.
Tier up on 109 not observed.
Tier up on 110 not observed.
Tier up on 111 not observed.
Tier up on 112 observed.
Tier up on 113 observed.
Tier up on 114 observed.
Tier up on 115 observed.
Tier up on 116 observed.
Tier up on 117 observed.
Tier up on 118 observed.
Tier up on 119 observed.
Tier up on 120 observed.


So tier up chance was observed on an end roll as low as 112 this time, at this rate that means kick should have a tier up message on an end roll as low as 109.

[Tgo01]

Probably last data dump I'm gonna do.

Kick stats!



>Total attacks 2950.0

End roll 101-117 data:
Total attacks: 423.0
Tier up count: 0 (0.0)%

End roll 118-120 data:
Total attacks: 70.0
Tier up count: 3 (4.29)%

End roll 121-140 data:
Total attacks: 604.0
Tier up count: 56 (9.27)%

End roll 141-160 data:
Total attacks: 573.0
Tier up count: 70 (12.22)%

End roll 161-180 data:
Total attacks: 480.0
Tier up count: 52 (10.83)%

End roll 181-200 data:
Total attacks: 377.0
Tier up count: 30 (7.96)%

End roll 201-220 data:
Total attacks: 190.0
Tier up count: 24 (12.63)%

End roll 221-240 data:
Total attacks: 127.0
Tier up count: 22 (17.32)%

End roll 241-260 data:
Total attacks: 74.0
Tier up count: 9 (12.16)%

End roll 261-280 data:
Total attacks: 22.0
Tier up count: 5 (22.73)%

End roll 281-300 data:
Total attacks: 5.0
Tier up count: 1 (20.0)%

End roll 301-320 data:
Total attacks: 4.0
Tier up count: 1 (25.0)%

End roll 321-340 data:
Total attacks: 1.0
Tier up count: 0 (0.0)%

Tier up on 101 not observed.
Tier up on 102 not observed.
Tier up on 103 not observed.
Tier up on 104 not observed.
Tier up on 105 not observed.
Tier up on 106 not observed.
Tier up on 107 not observed.
Tier up on 108 not observed.
Tier up on 109 not observed.
Tier up on 110 not observed.
Tier up on 111 not observed.
Tier up on 112 not observed.
Tier up on 113 not observed.
Tier up on 114 not observed.
Tier up on 115 not observed.
Tier up on 116 not observed.
Tier up on 117 not observed.
Tier up on 118 observed.
Tier up on 119 observed.
Tier up on 120 observed.


I'm sure you can get a tier up message on a lower kick end roll than 118 but since the chance is so low I just probably never got a chance to see one.

[Tgo01]

Almost time to do my monk's stats for real.

I'm assuming influence is the one to tank as it usually is?

Unfortunately I need to pick another stat not to max out. I'm thinking INT is the second least useful stat for a monk?

I can get 100 in everything except a 98 in INT and an 83 in INF. Does this sound good?

[Jeril]

Sounds decent to me.

[Androidpk]

Int is a factor with dodge and evade but with 3x dodge and evade mastery you won't notice any difference I bet.

[Donquix]

Int is a factor with dodge and evade but with 3x dodge and evade mastery you won't notice any difference I bet.

it's also worth less than agility by a fair bit on most checks, afaik. 1/4 as much for direct evade, i assume roughly the same amount for any maneuvers it is related in.

I did basically the same. I did lower my int a few points so I could end up with 90 influence. 100's in all the things with perfect self!

[Tgo01]

I just realized the stat calculators online are way off for monks, probably because they were written 10 years before monks were released and things have changed since then.

Does anyone have a more up to date stat calculator I can use? Or maybe I have to do this by hand, how exactly does this work? Like if a character has a 20 GI in strength does that mean every 5 levels the stat increases by one? What if the GI is 8, that would make every 13 levels it goes up by one but that ends up being 104 points, are those 4 points wasted or do they carry over?

EDIT:

Found a handy article on the wiki:

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Statistic_growth_rate

[Tgo01]

Found a handy article on the wiki:

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Statistic_growth_rate

Is the chart at the bottom about optimization for level 100 accurate?

Following that chart and going by a halfling monk's stat growth rate I got the following stats for my monk:



Strength (STR): 73
Constitution (CON): 49
Dexterity (DEX): 62
Agility (AGI): 30
Discipline (DIS): 68
Aura (AUR): 82
Logic (LOG): 77
Intuition (INT): 73
Wisdom (WIS): 82
Influence (INF): 64


Which should put all stats at 100 by cap. If I'm understanding how the GI and all works that would put my influence at 79 at cap. Does this all sound right? I think I can live with 79 in influence if it means 100's in everything else. Influence is basically 100% useless for monks, right? Other than the standard shop bias.

[Androidpk]

Influence is a mental statistic (https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Statistic) that measures a character's force of personality.
Influence determines the base mana capacity of the bard and empath professions. It will also likely be a prime requisite of themonk (https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Monk) and savant (https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Savant) professions.

[Tgo01]

Yeah but like, it's not, right?

[Androidpk]

Pretty sure that last bit needs to be taken off the page entry. There are a couple of society abilities that use influence but other than it seems completely useless for a monk.

[Maerit]

There's also some merit to dumping a few points less into something so that you can have 100s in everything when using Perfect Self.

Also, I think you have too many stats above 70... I think you can only have 4 stats above 70. Also, is Tsoran's trainer spreadsheet version 4.2.1 no longer accurate? It shows that you would have

STR - 100
CON - 92
DEX - 100
AGI - 93
DIS - 100
LOG - 88
INT - 100
WIS -100
INF - 93

At least that is what I am seeing for a halfling monk.

[Maerit]

I think for a halfling monk your stats would have to be set to:

STR - 73
CON - 62
DEX - 49
AGI - 49
DIS - 68
AUR -82
LOG -91
INT - 70
WIS -82
INF - 34

This looks like it would put 100s in everything, but leave INT at 98 and INF at 78. The reason is because you can't have more than 4 stats above 70, and WIS/AUR/STR/LOG being higher in priority, you'd have to sacrifice max INT.

If you want to explore the value of Perfect Self at cap, which gives +10 to all stats, you can dump points out of INT(58) and AUR(68) putting INF to 60, and then you'll have 100s in everything with 5/5 Perfect Self. Or you can just keep INF low, and get just 1 rank of Perfect Self for +2 to all status to bump your INT up to 100.

Provided my sources (http://www.nitefallz.com/index.html and Tsoran's spreadsheet V4.2.10) are accurate.

[Tgo01]

I checked out the nitefallz site as well, either it is inaccurate or the wiki is. The nitefallz site says it was last updated in 2003 so I'm assuming that is the inaccurate one.

The reason I'm getting away with 5 stats at 70+ is because strength is a prime stat so it gets a +10 bonus so technically I only have it set to 63.

I'm actually kind of interested in doing 100's in everything at cap now, with perfect self of course.

Only problem is I don't think it's possible unless I sacrifice points in a third stat.

Here is a link to growth rates for halfling monks:

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Halfling

I figure the best I can do is 100's in everything except a 90 in INT and an 89 in INF.

Can anyone confirm or deny if my math is right? The whole stat growth thing kind of confuses me but I'm pretty sure I'm doing it right.

I figure the lowest I can start INT at is 60 because a halfling monk's GI for INT is 20 which means it will grow every 3 levels until hitting 70, then because of rounding it will continue to grow every 3 levels until 80 which would put my monk at level 60 with 80 in INT.

At this point INT would grow every 4 levels which would put him at 90 INT right at cap. If I make INT any lower it won't reach 90.

This means the highest I can start my INF at is 77 and since the GI for halfling monk's INF is 10 this means he would get a point of INF every 7 levels until he has an 80 in INF at level 21, at which point he gains a point of INF every 8 levels. This would put him at 89 INF at level 93 which means he won't get another point in INF since cap is, y'know, level 100.

Am I misunderstanding this at all? 100's in everything sounds kind of awesome but not sure I want to sacrifice points in an important stat for INF of all things :/