"Sword" and board setups

[Gammit]

I'm curious to hear from other ambushing rogues about what weapons you use, and when. Mostly, I'm just curious how sword and board handles various types of beastie.

For my own part, I've been focusing on keeping RT down, which means dagger or rapier. This is because I've been fighting e-waving beasts, and staying hidden during their ticks is the fastest way to deal with that particular problem (since they'll never prep the spell if they don't actually see you). I'm noticing this doesn't do much against trolls (they come out of stun/heal from the crits too quickly, and they're too talk to just go straight for the eyes), and golems (they just don't get pushed up the crit table enough for me to do anything useful at all). Against things with relatively fast RT that cast warding spells (which are usually also incorporeal undead, so no stunning), I fare even worse--it takes forever (and tons of bless charges) to do any significant damage, and I get blasted by their sorc spells, which all seem to have about a 50% success rate. Boil Earth has also been a problem, but I don't know if that was just lack of luck more than anything else since I only tried fighting the critters the one time before I left them to themselves.

So how about it? What are your strategies?

[Mogonis]

How about an ambushing warrior? If I can do it, any hiding rogue can. I swing a falchion, so 6RT ambush. I typically hide and aim for the head. If I don't kill it, hopefully I've hindered its perception so I can hide better on the next attempt. I'll then go for the neck, then eyes. If the critter is turtled, I'll feint/disarm/tackle or something to drop its stance or at least give it RT. In Nelemar I don't bother with the undead. They're just hack fests, and RT gets you (me) killed in there. I feel they aren't worth spending time on, plus I can't hide in front of them. A rogue can.

[Astray]

Sword and Board is fine but the heavier, broader ones that protect you better (tower for example) incurs a big dodge penalty.

Sounds like you're just concentrating on what's fastest. That's great if you can reliably ambush the eye without issue. I say go with a handaxe and if you can't hit the eye reliably on ambush, go for the legs. Critters regularly attempt to stand unless the leg is gone, which consumes a turn, even then they typically have some random idle animation of screaming or crawling. Trolls will still regenerate but if they go prone with stun, they shake off the stun first, which wastes a turn and leaves them prone.

What's your build and level? Race too.

[Kalishar]

As an ambusher I never messed with non-coporeal creatures, in fact I hardly messed with undead at all unless I had a specific purpose in mind. As far as speed vs power, it depends on what armor you are going against, but I felt a short sword was a good compromise on both.

Guild skills come in handy when you go up against faster creatures, there are a good number of ways to slow them down but most important in my opinion is the vanish CM skill. Every time you mess up and time something wrong, or fail hard at a roll, vanish can pretty much save your bacon 95% of the time.

[droit]

Against anything crittable and not in full plate armor, use a dagger. Carry a blessed handaxe for non-corp, undead and full plate. That will cover just about everything.

[Mogonis]

Oh, also I use a medium shield and wear metal breastplate.

[Lord Orbstar]

Or just use a morningstar and crush their heads

[Gammit]

Trolls will still regenerate but if they go prone with stun, they shake off the stun first, which wastes a turn and leaves them prone.


In my experience with trolls, that is actually not the case. They don't "shake off" the stun, they just have really low stun times, and it's usually less than a roundtime tick. I will typically see them stand up the round after I get off a level 2 leg wound (a bit longer if I get a level 3, but that is rare with the dagger, I haven't tried with the rapier)--killing them becomes a game of "keep legging them until they finally take more than one round to stand, then hope I hit the eye crit", which just takes too long. A handaxe might help with the legging part of the equation.



What's your build and level? Race too.


Build is level 28, human, 2x OHE/shield/dodge/ambush/s&h, 1x cman, some other stuff. 30 ranks of armor for min RT in brig, and using a medium shield. Shield maneuvers are medium mastery and swiftness, cman is shadow mastery (which I'm thinking about switching out, but I'd like to hit the 30 rank cman cap next level and see how much I like the permanent -1 to hide/sneak roundtimes first). I keep disarm and picking up so I can pick boxes of my own level without danger, so that's typically where my spare points go (including lores, so I'm in a slight TP debt for a while since I just got 603, but that will resolve itself in a level or two, after which I can think about pushing up cman or something). I have been 2xing perception, but I think I can let that slack to 1x after seeing a calculation somewhere that implies that that keeps up with same-level disarm/pick pretty well once you're past level 20 or so.

Hitting the eye is easy enough if I can reach it, although even against stuff that's crittable and reachable, I'll usually take the leg first because it's a bit easier to handle when I miss (especially if I'm dealing with multiple mobs). Things that are tall also seem to not really take heavy crits on the leg, though, so maybe the handaxe will help with that. Anecdotally, rapier seems to hit a little higher up the crit table (at the cost of one second RT), but I haven't really played with stuff with better armor with it. I don't see amazing crits on the head, but maybe that's different with a handaxe. I don't know what percentage of crush the handaxe is, but it's different enough that it will probably round out the dagger pretty well. I'd certainly love to ignore incorporeal undead entirely, but the Adventurer's Guild has other plans :/

Katars seem pretty rare, anyone have much experience with them? The AvD is impressive, although slash/puncture doesn't seem necessarily helpfully diverse enough to really commit to it.



Or just use a morningstar and crush their heads


Ah yes, the magical world of gsplayers.com, where a thread asking for input on a Sword and Board build suggests using OHB. What wonderful insight you bring to this discussion, and presented so wittily! It's like playing Gemstone with Oscar Wilde!

[Astray]

They don't "shake off" the stun, they just have really low stun times, and it's usually less than a roundtime tick.

Maybe you just have horrendous luck. Trolls typically unstun with their follow up turn, I have yet to see a troll just go stun and then unstun within a tick without its maneuver.

Handaxe and Falchion are your go to weapons for OHE. If you're looking to leg something, go with one of those. Rapier has higher AvD but its DF is garbo. Plus you can find both weapons at 4x for next to nothing.

You may also wish to try the cman Hamstring since you get a bonus (I think) for using it with a dagger.

[Gammit]

Maybe you just have horrendous luck. Trolls typically unstun with their follow up turn, I have yet to see a troll just go stun and then unstun within a tick without its maneuver.


Maybe I do. I found myself in RR for a while (followed playershops to a 5x brig that ended up being already sold, I'm a lucky guy), so maybe I'll have some extra data to work with if I chill there for a few days.



Handaxe and Falchion are your go to weapons for OHE. If you're looking to leg something, go with one of those. Rapier has higher AvD but its DF is garbo. Plus you can find both weapons at 4x for next to nothing.


Handaxe/Falchion look pretty similar on the Edged Weapons chart, off-hand can you think of any big differences between them? I guess mainly that Falchion is for robes/leathers, and handaxe for chain+?



You may also wish to try the cman Hamstring since you get a bonus (I think) for using it with a dagger.

Yeah, if I end up not really digging where smastery goes, I'm definitely thinking about looking into this, or Vanish.

[Astray]

Handaxe/Falchion look pretty similar on the Edged Weapons chart, off-hand can you think of any big differences between them?

Falchion is not so great against plate, Handaxe is, each one has higher and lower DF and AvD against certain armor types. Look here and compare: https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Edged_Weapons


Yeah, if I end up not really digging where smastery goes, I'm definitely thinking about looking into this, or Vanish.

Vanish is good.

[Jeril]

Fire flaring weapons are great against trolls. I am guessing you are fighting tree spirits for your non corp undead? You can leg them to knock them down. Because they are noncorp you'll never really get rid of the leg but they'll spend their action standing instead of doing anything else. Which casting undead are you having trouble with? Also, just because the adventurer's guild gives you a task doesn't mean you have to do it, just remove twice and be done, especially if it takes you more then 15 minutes to finish a task.

[DaCapn]

Sword/board is pretty formulaic: slow targets you can time your attacks against or weak ones you can wreck in one shot, striving for 1v1 situations. And to this end, the sooner you're in heavy armor, the better. Your survivability goes way up (against both magical and physical attacks). You do end up with a limited pool of hunting options.

Falchion vs. handaxe: I went handaxe (never needed the edge against creatures in robes anwyay). But it's probably splitting hairs a bit. The advice of carrying a few weapons (various RTs, various DFs) is very sound.

I didn't really see much here in terms of CM priority, but I think dirtkick is the best offensive CM (stance independent). For utility/defense, I always advocate combat mobility right away. Getting vanish ASAP is advisable as well. In general, I avoid the flat bonus CMs (wspec, focus, etc) as they're not big contributors to your survivability.

[Neovik1]

Sword/board is pretty formulaic: slow targets you can time your attacks against or weak ones you can wreck in one shot, striving for 1v1 situations. And to this end, the sooner you're in heavy armor, the better. Your survivability goes way up (against both magical and physical attacks). You do end up with a limited pool of hunting options.

Falchion vs. handaxe: I went handaxe (never needed the edge against creatures in robes anwyay). But it's probably splitting hairs a bit. The advice of carrying a few weapons (various RTs, various DFs) is very sound.

I didn't really see much here in terms of CM priority, but I think dirtkick is the best offensive CM (stance independent). For utility/defense, I always advocate combat mobility right away. Getting vanish ASAP is advisable as well. In general, I avoid the flat bonus CMs (wspec, focus, etc) as they're not big contributors to your survivability.

I've always been in brig with a handaxe and shield and don't think I really have a need to move up my armor at all. If anything I think moving up in armor for me would hurt me. But that's just from what I have experienced.

[Riltus]

Some trolls are stunnable...some are not.

You swing with a razor-sharp black vultite fist-scythe at a swamp troll!
AS: +297 vs DS: +45 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +99 = +377
... and hit for 78 points of damage!
Great shot penetrates thigh and shatters bone!
The swamp troll is knocked to the ground!
The swamp troll is stunned!

6 round stun (30 seconds)

You swing with a razor-sharp black vultite fist-scythe at a hill troll!
AS: +297 vs DS: +117 with AvD: +30 + d100 roll: +49 = +259
... and hit for 67 points of damage!
Awesome shot shatters ribs and punctures lung!
The hill troll is stunned!

8 round stun (40 seconds)

You swing with a razor-sharp black vultite fist-scythe at a forest troll!
AS: +297 vs DS: +55 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +49 = +331
... and hit for 77 points of damage!
Strong slash to the forest troll's right leg!
Muscles exposed!
Not a pretty sight.
The forest troll is knocked to the ground!
The forest troll is stunned!

6 round stun (30 seconds)

You swing with a razor-sharp black vultite fist-scythe at a cave troll!
AS: +297 vs DS: +105 with AvD: +37 + d100 roll: +15 = +244
... and hit for 59 points of damage!
Blow shatters knee and severs lower leg!
A cave troll screams and falls to the ground grasping his mangled right leg!
The cave troll is stunned!

8 round stun (40 seconds)

You swing with a razor-sharp black vultite fist-scythe at a war troll!
AS: +297 vs DS: +66 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +81 = +337
... and hit for 61 points of damage!
Quick, powerful slash to the war troll's right knee!
The war troll is knocked to the ground!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
>A war troll's flesh wounds regenerate some.
A war troll's right leg regenerates and looks much better.

A war troll stands up with a grunt.

Unstunnable. They can regen and stand immediately or longer depending on the time since their previous action.

Mark

[DaCapn]

I've always been in brig with a handaxe and shield and don't think I really have a need to move up my armor at all. If anything I think moving up in armor for me would hurt me. But that's just from what I have experienced.

I suppose it depends what level you are (for the sake of redux for one) and what you're doing. If you're always in the 1v1 situation it basically doesn't matter what armor you're in since you totally get to dictate terms. But if you want to be able to survive the less than ideal areas for this hunting style (warcamps or the like), I can't imagine doing it in light armor. If you chose to cast spells in combat, I suppose that's another matter entirely.

To add an asterisk to my advice, though, my experience with sword/board pre-dates vanish. I went ranged before vanish and yeah... didn't really look back. Though, having also tried ranged at low levels, I'd still prefer kicking things off with sword/board and then going ranged later.

[Gammit]

Some trolls are stunnable...some are not.

You swing with a razor-sharp black vultite fist-scythe at a swamp troll!
AS: +297 vs DS: +45 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +99 = +377
... and hit for 78 points of damage!
Great shot penetrates thigh and shatters bone!
The swamp troll is knocked to the ground!
The swamp troll is stunned!

6 round stun (30 seconds)

You swing with a razor-sharp black vultite fist-scythe at a hill troll!
AS: +297 vs DS: +117 with AvD: +30 + d100 roll: +49 = +259
... and hit for 67 points of damage!
Awesome shot shatters ribs and punctures lung!
The hill troll is stunned!

8 round stun (40 seconds)

You swing with a razor-sharp black vultite fist-scythe at a forest troll!
AS: +297 vs DS: +55 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +49 = +331
... and hit for 77 points of damage!
Strong slash to the forest troll's right leg!
Muscles exposed!
Not a pretty sight.
The forest troll is knocked to the ground!
The forest troll is stunned!

6 round stun (30 seconds)

You swing with a razor-sharp black vultite fist-scythe at a cave troll!
AS: +297 vs DS: +105 with AvD: +37 + d100 roll: +15 = +244
... and hit for 59 points of damage!
Blow shatters knee and severs lower leg!
A cave troll screams and falls to the ground grasping his mangled right leg!
The cave troll is stunned!

8 round stun (40 seconds)

You swing with a razor-sharp black vultite fist-scythe at a war troll!
AS: +297 vs DS: +66 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +81 = +337
... and hit for 61 points of damage!
Quick, powerful slash to the war troll's right knee!
The war troll is knocked to the ground!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
>A war troll's flesh wounds regenerate some.
A war troll's right leg regenerates and looks much better.

A war troll stands up with a grunt.

Unstunnable. They can regen and stand immediately or longer depending on the time since their previous action.

Mark

This is awesome, thank you

[Neovik1]

I suppose it depends what level you are (for the sake of redux for one) and what you're doing. If you're always in the 1v1 situation it basically doesn't matter what armor you're in since you totally get to dictate terms. But if you want to be able to survive the less than ideal areas for this hunting style (warcamps or the like), I can't imagine doing it in light armor. If you chose to cast spells in combat, I suppose that's another matter entirely.

To add an asterisk to my advice, though, my experience with sword/board pre-dates vanish. I went ranged before vanish and yeah... didn't really look back. Though, having also tried ranged at low levels, I'd still prefer kicking things off with sword/board and then going ranged later.

I can definitely imagine my life being a lot easier with your setup. I don't think I could get use to using a bow. I never imagined myself being a caster rogue but it some how happened. My game plan was to one day get into plate... But I went the other direction.

[m444w]

I'm with Droit, falchions and handaxes are wasted RT.

Also, rapiers are awesome for anything in armor below chain.

By the time you're facing creatures in plate consistently (90's+) you can crit kill them with a dagger or shortsword easily.

[Astray]

Fire flaring weapons are great against trolls.

Absolutely. It also stops their healing factor for a little and it requires a single flare of any severity. If you can't buy/find a 4x fire flaring dagger, find a wizard attuned to fire.

[elcidcannon]

Against anything crittable and not in full plate armor, use a dagger. Carry a blessed handaxe for non-corp, undead and full plate. That will cover just about everything.

I'm an hide-ambush S&B ranger, so I assume this conversation can apply to me as well. I only 1x in ambush...I stick to a c-weighted handaxe for legs, and switch to a dagger once the target is prone. I have a pretty good success rate on aiming at both areas. At what point should I think of solely using a dagger? 28 human ranger if that helps.

[droit]

I'm an hide-ambush S&B ranger, so I assume this conversation can apply to me as well. I only 1x in ambush...I stick to a c-weighted handaxe for legs, and switch to a dagger once the target is prone. I have a pretty good success rate on aiming at both areas. At what point should I think of solely using a dagger? 28 human ranger if that helps.

I dunno. 28 seems on the low end to me, but I wasn't messing around with daggers that early. I'd imagine that with only 1x ambush, you'd need a few levels before your aiming and phantom weighting are up to snuff, but you say you've been using them pretty effectively so far, so who knows. You can't leg with the dagger as well?

[elcidcannon]

I can, and I have vs some opponents (mostly the lightly armored). I've definitely noticed an improvement the past few levels. I was really just curious at what point/ranks people typically rely on daggers solely. I might be able to, but it's tough to leave the warm blanket of a HCW waraxe.

[kutter]

TWC with two short-swords, doubles the chances you will get a stun in. I have two crit weighted ones. My rogue actually hunts with short/dagger, still looking for a weighted dagger; so he can take out a leg and then hit a neck or eye. I do not seem to die any more or less since I got away from sword/board.