New Rogue Seeking Advice

[Aphylo]

Hello, I'd like to ask for help in trying to decide what build my new rogue will use going forward. I've gone past my 30 days so I can't really test out these different builds anymore but I do still have a fixskill available. And perhaps another one coming on the 20th?

(removed stats - doesn't seem pertinent nor up-to-date)

Armor Use: at 30 with Brigandine armor, planning to move to Breasplate at Level 40ish if TPs allow
Combat Maneuvers: as near to 1.5x As much as possible
Perception: 2x for a bunch of things
Picking Locks/Disarming Traps: 0 would like to get this eventually
Survival: 20 because Icemule
Climbing: 20 because Icemule

I am debating between:

Archery/Sniping
2x Ranged Weapons
3x Dodge
3x Stalking & Hiding

Probably the safest and cheapest build of all of these. I might even have enough spare TPs to pick up lockpicking skills if I drop S&H down to 2x and CM to 1x. Not bad at killing but kinda boring right now since I can't aim reliably so it's just fire, fire, fire, fire. Often, I just lose an arrow when I try to aim at anything beside the torso area. Plays almost like a bolting wizard but I've already played one of those. Also, arrows are inconvenient. Especially against non-corporeal undead because with them my arrows fly too far and they are "out of reach" for a long amount of time after the critter is dead. So I'm standing there: gather arrow, nope, wait a bit, gather arrow, nope, wait a bit more, gather arrow? nope, check back later. I even added a go arrow macro hoping it would move me closer to the arrows but that doesn't seem to do anything.

TWC Dagger
2x Edged Weapons
2x Dodge
2x Two Weapon Combat
2x Stalking & Hiding

I started out this rogue with TWC, starting with falchions, longswords and short swords. Though as my DS fell behind compared with the enemy's AS I started switching to faster weapons so I am able to more easily stance dance/re-hide. Seems to be more of a high level build as I don't have the combat maneuvers or stamina currently to really make it sing. Ideally, this would have fitted my character concept more but it just wasn't working for me at these levels. Also, daggers are terrible in the open and so doesn't work against highly perceptive critters and aiming for the eyes seem to be unreliable at this point. MSTRIKE with a falchion and longsword though was particularly deadly. TP Intensive, so some skills might fall behind.

Brawler with Shield
2x Brawling
2x Shield Use
2x Dodge
2x Stalking & Hiding

Current build. I like UAC, seems more fun than archery. And hits more consistently harder than daggers. Works even in the open for those critters with high perception. With S&H, tiering up becomes almost a non-issue. At least, when I am able to hide, not very good against non-corporeal undead and perceptive animals as it relies a lot on critical kills in ambush. Open UAC rogue is worse than a monk since no access to monk spells. Terrible DS though compared to the archery build above, even with shield. Though better AvD against spells? With my sucky TD though I barely notice the difference.

Brawler with TWC
2x Brawling
3x Dodge
0.5x-1x TWC
2x Stalking & Hiding

Mostly the TWC is just there for defense to replace Shield Use, planning to use both hands empty or at least one brawling weapon to get the outright parry chance. Rogue, so no Brace (1214). Also worse DS than Brawler with Shield build but better UAF/MM. A good alternate choice after the TWC dagger build for fitting the character concept but the worst DS of all. I foresee many deaths in the future using this build though fun times too as UAC is especially visceral. Ka-POW!

~ end ~

Thanks, appreciate any advice anyone might offer. Also, I've heard about some people going robes with Armor Stealth and 3x S&H and though that sounds interesting seems to be a bit boo-boo town, crazy pants.

~ addendum ~

Sword n' Board

2x Edged Weapons
2x Shield Use
2x Dodge
2x Stalking & Hiding

Sounds to be a perfectly fine hunting build as others have mentioned. Might keep in mind in the future. Only thing I wouldn't like about it is all the weapons I'd have to carry for different situations. What am I, a warrior? Edit: After some more consideration, this build seems to be the second-cheapest and safest build. Have yet to actually test it out.

Archery with Spells!

2x Ranged Weapons
3x Dodge
2x Stalking & Hiding
?x Spell Research
?x Harness Power

One thing I didn't try during my 30 days was spells. I was going through the beginner's guide for rogues and it seemed interesting. Seemed to be very expensive and I just couldn't fit it in anywhere. Does anyone have experience leveling with this? I was thinking of getting as much spells I can afford and dropping Combat Maneuvers completely. Perhaps Minor Spiritual for my lack of TD and bolt AS. Spirit Fog sounds like a fun thing to mess around with from time to time. Edit: Nope, after trying it out, I'm ready to go back to being a shield user. Not sure if it's the lesser CM ranks or if the spells are just making me more vulnerable to creature maneuvers but I'm suddenly taking a lot more damage when hunting. Gave me my first death too, boo!

Initial Statistics

Strength (STR): 90
Constitution (CON): 80
Dexterity (DEX): 80
Agility (AGI): 80
Discipline (DIS): 70
Aura (AUR): 70
Logic (LOG): 50
Intuition (INT): 60
Wisdom (WIS): 60
Influence (INF): 20

For anyone interested here's what I ended up doing with my second fixskills on 05/20/2015.

30 Armor Use
1x Shield Use
2x Edged Weapons
1.5x Combat Maneuvers
2x Ambush
2x Physical Training
3x Dodging
20 Climbing
5 Swimming
2x Stalking & Hiding
1x Perception
4 First Aid
5 Trading
1x Survival

Fixskills 05/23/2015. Was unsatisfied with the previous build. It was fine, it killed things alright and it had ample defenses. Just got bored.

30 Armor Use - no extra TPs derail plans for moving on up to MBP, probably stick with this for a while
2x Shield Use - 3x Dodge gives more DS but as a brawler not going 2x Shield Use incurs a huge MM penalty
1.5x Combat Maneuvers - plan to get this to 2x when TPs allow, next priority
2x Brawling - generates fun
2x Ambush - ditto
2x Physical Fitness - perhaps an overreaction to that one instant maneuver death but better safe than sorry
2x Dodging - see Shield Use above
1x Survival - might stop training this as the build requires more TPs, though being able to skin is nice
2x Stalking & Hiding - would like to get this to 3x eventually
1x Perception - aside from not noticing sneaky rangers anymore, I don't notice much effect from the lower training
20 Climbing
5 Swimming
4 First Aid
5 Trading

CMAN:
Combat Mobility
Evade Mastery
Punch Mastery
Dirtkick
Dust Shroud

ARMOR:
Armored Evasion

SHIELD:
Small Shield Focus
Shielded Brawler
Shield Swiftness

equipment: brigandine, UAC boots & gloves, knuckle-blade (not really used, but I keep it around because I like its looks)

[Astray]

I like Archery/sniping more than anything. You can shoot people in the face and remain hidden or you can just shoot them in their face from the open.

[Wesley]

Ugh. The stats. So much wasted TP after 40 or so, but if there's a fixstats potion in your future, you're fine.

Your instincts are pretty decent from what you wrote here. TWC definitely does not pan out early with daggers, and even late, daggers have a hell of a time getting crit adders even with all your skills. Shortswords (or shortsword/main gauche for example) are a viable alternative for swinging quickly still while actually packing enough punch in a wider array of scenarios. Personally I ended up sword/board because those rogue shield skills can make it like you're almost not holding a shield at all as far as dodge modifier, while still giving you the extra DS and block of actually holding a shield.

I've found on the whole that TWC can be somewhat wasted on a rogue. After a while, you're going to hit your mark just about every time, and if you're doing it right, just about every time will be the crit you want. The second weapon seems superfluous a lot.

Brawling...ehhhh...The weapons are mediocre, the UAC works better on something like a warrior since it plays to standing out in the open rather than hiding/ambushing. It's do-able though.

Archery obviously works. You know that, so nothin' to add there. 3x dodge or stalk/hide seems a bit much early as well, but if you're okay with not picking, definitely doable. It's not going to hurt anything at any rate other than your ability to diversify some skills early. Later on, your TPs generally catch up.

[Aphylo]

Thanks for the input, guys. Looks like I'll be leaning towards Archery/Sniping. I'll keep the shortsword and board in mind for a future build. Perhaps when I'm at a higher level.

What I like about UAC is that I can often get 1-2 hit kills from an ambush. It was also easier to aim since I'll be going for the head rather than the eye. With the same speed as a dagger but can also be used in open combat when necessary. The only downside that I saw was the defense, which was just terrible, even with a shield.

I do want to get lockpicking sooner rather than later but I can't say it's actually high on the priority list.

[DaCapn]

The only way I'll do ranged is with 411 on store-bought arrows and leave them on the ground. The management is too annoying. There's info on the wiki about how to optimized 411/bless with arrows. You could use that (with the help of a wizard) to put together a lockered stockpile of super-charged bundles of 100 to go through. Note that your stats (not optimized for cap) are favorable for ranged.


Brawling...ehhhh...The weapons are mediocre, the UAC works better on something like a warrior since it plays to standing out in the open rather than hiding/ambushing. It's do-able though.

I've only ever heard people say how awesome UAC is with rogues.

Keep in mind that you'll have another fixskill soon.

[Astray]

UAC is awesome with an ambushing rogue. I believe you start with a higher tier when you ambush. I'm also assuming there's a push down. You essentially skip all the tedium of tiering up and get to the face splattering.

[Wesley]

I stand corrected. Didn't think it was as good as all that, but you guys know what you're talkin' about. That seems a viable path too then.

[Neovik1]

I've capped and continue to use axe and board without any issues. Currently hunting the scatter and managed to do extremely well in duskruin arena without any issues.

[Jeril]

I am curious about what DS issues you are seeing? If you are getting caught in offensive you are doing it wrong and should learn to time your strikes better. Using a shield with UAC will get better as you get the levels to max out shield brawler then swiftness. As someone said earlier short swords make a decent balance between speed and power until you get to a higher level where daggers are more reliable. Even daggers aren't that bad they just suck against things in chain and plate for a long while. A lot of rogues will carry a variety of weapons to handle whatever they come across and if you get a warrior made sheath it makes carrying them around a good bit easier as it will reduce the weight of each weapon inside by 2 pounds. You can make almost anything work, just a matter of figuring out what you like.

[Whirlin]

You can make almost anything work, just a matter of figuring out what you like.
Jeril's motto right there.

[Astray]

A lot of rogues will carry a variety of weapons to handle whatever they come across

This. I carried a handaxe, a couple different daggers with various flares and a weighted falchion for various hitting of things.

[kutter]

I say pick the style you want to play, not the one you think is 'best'. You will kill stuff with any of them, it is pretty hard to screw up a hunting rogue since so many paths are viable. I like ambushing TWC, just because that is how I think of my rogue, he swings two wakizashi or a handaxe/wakizashi. Is it overkill, probably, but it is how I like it, so train yours how you like it and go kill stuff.

I just realized, Jeril already said that, day late, and a dollar short it seems.

[Wesley]

It's a bit off topic, but I'm curious now if you could theoretically make a pure rogue starting at like level 20, getting enough Runestaff defense ranks for a Runestaff, and hunting solely with 409/415. Horrendously stupid, of course, but I wonder if you could grind your way through capping that. Who's crazy/stupid enough to give it a shot?

[Astray]

You are probably gonna be doing a ton of point conversion for what is probably going to be incredibly ineffective and frustrating. I'm sure it's been done but it's a labor of love with plenty of drinking and self loathing in between.

[Wesley]

I'd find a way to work THW in so I could 425 and whomp stuff with my runestaff too. I might try that with my rogue. My warrior seems to be my main character these days anyway. :D

[Malisai]

It's a bit off topic, but I'm curious now if you could theoretically make a pure rogue starting at like level 20, getting enough Runestaff defense ranks for a Runestaff, and hunting solely with 409/415. Horrendously stupid, of course, but I wonder if you could grind your way through capping that. Who's crazy/stupid enough to give it a shot?

It wouldnt work. 409 and 415 would be very mana intensive at that level. Not only that but you could only 1x in spells, which means that your CS will be very low. To put it this way, my sorcerer who was 2.5x in spells couldnt really hunt with 409/415 because i failed so many warding attempts. Those just eat your mana up.

If you had someone who could imbed rods for you, it MIGHT work, but just know that its going to be very difficult and at some point it will no longer be an option due to not being able to ward. you could get away with using 111 and bolting maybe.

[Gelston]

Ugh. The stats. So much wasted TP after 40 or so, but if there's a fixstats potion in your future, you're fine.

Your instincts are pretty decent from what you wrote here. TWC definitely does not pan out early with daggers, and even late, daggers have a hell of a time getting crit adders even with all your skills. Shortswords (or shortsword/main gauche for example) are a viable alternative for swinging quickly still while actually packing enough punch in a wider array of scenarios. Personally I ended up sword/board because those rogue shield skills can make it like you're almost not holding a shield at all as far as dodge modifier, while still giving you the extra DS and block of actually holding a shield.

I've found on the whole that TWC can be somewhat wasted on a rogue. After a while, you're going to hit your mark just about every time, and if you're doing it right, just about every time will be the crit you want. The second weapon seems superfluous a lot.

Brawling...ehhhh...The weapons are mediocre, the UAC works better on something like a warrior since it plays to standing out in the open rather than hiding/ambushing. It's do-able though.

Archery obviously works. You know that, so nothin' to add there. 3x dodge or stalk/hide seems a bit much early as well, but if you're okay with not picking, definitely doable. It's not going to hurt anything at any rate other than your ability to diversify some skills early. Later on, your TPs generally catch up.

I liked dual daggers with TWC from level... 30 or so? I had some pretty sweet daggers though. With basic 4x shit it would been hard.

[Parkbandit]

No pickpocketing = not a real rogue.

[Gelston]

No pickpocketing = not a real rogue.

Hell, I even 2xd pickpocketing... I never really did it though, because I was mainly in Illy and no one was there. I'd mostly rob friends for shit and giggles. Also, titles.

[Donquix]

Ugh. The stats. So much wasted TP after 40 or so, but if there's a fixstats potion in your future, you're fine.

Your instincts are pretty decent from what you wrote here. TWC definitely does not pan out early with daggers, and even late, daggers have a hell of a time getting crit adders even with all your skills. Shortswords (or shortsword/main gauche for example) are a viable alternative for swinging quickly still while actually packing enough punch in a wider array of scenarios. Personally I ended up sword/board because those rogue shield skills can make it like you're almost not holding a shield at all as far as dodge modifier, while still giving you the extra DS and block of actually holding a shield.

I've found on the whole that TWC can be somewhat wasted on a rogue. After a while, you're going to hit your mark just about every time, and if you're doing it right, just about every time will be the crit you want. The second weapon seems superfluous a lot.

Brawling...ehhhh...The weapons are mediocre, the UAC works better on something like a warrior since it plays to standing out in the open rather than hiding/ambushing. It's do-able though.

Archery obviously works. You know that, so nothin' to add there. 3x dodge or stalk/hide seems a bit much early as well, but if you're okay with not picking, definitely doable. It's not going to hurt anything at any rate other than your ability to diversify some skills early. Later on, your TPs generally catch up.

this post is full of so much bad info.

daggers work fine starting around 20-30, and up until cap.

dervish is a thing.

warriors are awful at UAC. The only thing that keeps open UAC remotely close to other styles is krynch, and even then it is clearly inferior. Ambush UAC is incredible. Basically dagger roundtime but stronger, and no chance of disarm. Second to ranged it's probably the second most potent style mechanically for an ambushing rogue.

[Candor]

No pickpocketing = not a real rogue.

That.

[Androidpk]

Open UAC with rolling krynch is most definitely NOT inferior. Check yourself, Donquix.

[Aluvius]

Open UAC with rolling krynch is most definitely NOT inferior. Check yourself, Donquix.

Wait, is there self-wrecking going on in this thread or has it been successfully checked?

[Androidpk]

Wait, is there self-wrecking going on in this thread or has it been successfully checked?

It's spreading at a rapid rate. I suggest we nuke this thread from orbit, just to be sure.

[Aphylo]

I am curious about what DS issues you are seeing? If you are getting caught in offensive you are doing it wrong and should learn to time your strikes better. Using a shield with UAC will get better as you get the levels to max out shield brawler then swiftness. As someone said earlier short swords make a decent balance between speed and power until you get to a higher level where daggers are more reliable. Even daggers aren't that bad they just suck against things in chain and plate for a long while. A lot of rogues will carry a variety of weapons to handle whatever they come across and if you get a warrior made sheath it makes carrying them around a good bit easier as it will reduce the weight of each weapon inside by 2 pounds. You can make almost anything work, just a matter of figuring out what you like.

I do get caught in offensive sometimes but I try to limit those as much as I can. And since the game has always been a bit laggy for me lately I can't always help it. Also, I can be a bit impatient at times and just want to kill NAOW. Out of all of the builds above TWC Dagger was my first choice but it was just too weak at these levels. As much as I liked TWC with MSTRIKES, I liked not getting hit more. (also, MOC is just a tiny bit expensive) Archery was fine, it was actually quite devastating with a longbow. But the RT was a bit long so I switched to composite. But I got tired of it because I couldn't aim. Played too much like my wizard. Then I tried UAC and it gave me fast kills from ambush at low RT. Shields was also the last thing I wanted to take. It's great but it just wasn't what I imagined my rogue to be when I started out. So I ended up as a Shielded Brawler.

If I had to pick, I would go with TWC Edged or Brawler (noshield). Or a Sniping Archer. :D

[Donquix]

Open UAC with rolling krynch is most definitely NOT inferior. Check yourself, Donquix.

everyone else and reality disagree :D

[JackWhisper]

everyone else and reality disagree :D

Ignore PK when he starts talking about monks. He's got serious PomPom Syndrome for the monk class. No clue why. Monks suck ass. And are remarkably inferior to a rogue ambushing from hiding with UAC.

[Astray]

Monks die when a breeze has traces of magic in it.

[Androidpk]

Ignore PK when he starts talking about monks. He's got serious PomPom Syndrome for the monk class. No clue why. Monks suck ass. And are remarkably inferior to a rogue ambushing from hiding with UAC.

Ignore Jack. Unlike him I have extensive testing with monk UAC combat and fully understand its pros and cons. Perfect? Not at all. Terrible? Absolutely not.

[Donquix]

Ignore Jack. Unlike him I have extensive testing with monk UAC combat and fully understand its pros and cons. Perfect? Not at all. Terrible? Absolutely not.

Sorry man. You can want that not to be how it is all you want. But, you're just wrong.

I'm averaging almost ~2.5 times the average time to kill with uac then without. That is vastly inferior, unequivocally. That's comparing my monk to my monk, if i compared it to classes/builds that are you know, actually good (ranged rogue/ranger, rapid fire wizard, berserking warrior, pure bard, etc.) it looks even more hilarious.

[Astray]

Whoa whoa whoa. Comparing a pure Bard to a UAC Monk is like comparing a nuke to a rubber band gun.

[Androidpk]

Sorry man. You can want that not to be how it is all you want. But, you're just wrong.

I'm averaging almost ~2.5 times the average time to kill with uac then without. That is vastly inferior, unequivocally. That's comparing my monk to my monk, if i compared it to classes/builds that are you know, actually good (ranged rogue/ranger, rapid fire wizard, berserking warrior, pure bard, etc.) it looks even more hilarious.

It's not what I want it's what I know and what I have seen with my own eyes. UAC and Krynch is beastly, especially in areas that swarm.

[Donquix]

Weapon (thw) = ~8 seconds
uac = 16 seconds, 19 seconds if i only count things 5+ levels above me

thousands of kills with each.

Your eyes are biased.

[Jeril]

Thread: New Rogue Seeking Advice
Go fuck yourself (Donquix)

Any particular reason for this hostility?

[Donquix]

lol. i didn't leave that.

[Jeril]

lol. i didn't leave that.

Yah, that is just weird.

[Donquix]

I don't know what i'd do if someone sullied my good name on the PC with impersonated negative rep. Thank god we got that sorted.

[Jeril]

I don't know what i'd do if someone sullied my good name on the PC with impersonated negative rep. Thank god we got that sorted.

I bet you'd care about it as much as I would.

[Aphylo]

Yah, that is just weird.

Sounds like someone's got beef wit' you. Recieved one of those too with (Donquix) at the end.


Ey ey ey, people don't got a beef wit Jeril. If they do, he gives them the beef and it's squashed. Capisce?

Woops, meant to reply to Donquix since the messages were being tagged with his name.

[Gelston]

I believe that could be a violation of the PC TOS, well, one of the ones that, if I recall, is enforced. You could always let Anticor know about it if it is a big deal to you, Donquix.

[Androidpk]

I believe that could be a violation of the PC TOS, well, one of the ones that, if I recall, is enforced. You could always let Anticor know about it if it is a big deal to you, Donquix.

It is. Wrathbringer was leaving people neg rep and adding my signature, got a 3 month (I think) ban from anticor.

[Parkbandit]

It is. Wrathbringer was leaving people neg rep and adding my signature, got a 3 month (I think) ban from anticor.

He wasn't permabanned, therefore he did nothing wrong.

[Neovik1]

I got negative rep from donquix too! It said: "suck my dick" - Donquix

[Astray]

Sounds like someone's got beef wit' you.

Ey ey ey, people don't got a beef wit Jeril. If they do, he gives them the beef and it's squashed. Capisce?

[DaCapn]

I got negative rep from donquix too! It said: "suck my dick" - Donquix

That's strange. He called me a faggot and here he wants you to give him a BJ? Classic self-loather, I guess.

Why rep hasn't been deanonymized is beyond me. The anonymity is what gives these guys their jollies.

[Donquix]

Someone is apparently very passionate about me correcting completely misguided information about rogues/uac.

[Astray]

Why rep hasn't been deanonymized is beyond me. The anonymity is what gives these guys their jollies.

It's most likely just not a feature. If it is, I don't know. The anon rep is probably the only way to be malicious without being in trouble.

[Donquix]

It's most likely just not a feature. If it is, I don't know. The anon rep is probably the only way to be malicious without being in trouble.

Or do what i do. I used adblock to stop the notifications tab and rep button from even displaying. It doesn't exist to me, making faux reps from me even more hilarious.

I gave jeril an upboat when this started, first time i've touched that shit in months probably.

[Androidpk]

I know on some vB forums you can disable rep. I'd rather have that option.

[Astray]

Or do what i do.

It doesn't bother me. If someone feels the need to be a shit through a system I honestly don't care about, more... well, they should probably deal with their failing mental health.

[Aphylo]

Does anyone have any experience with Minor Spiritual while leveling up? I'm thinking if I keep Dodge to 2x and CM to 1x with a Ranged Weapon, I can manage to get up to Spirit Warding II (107) and 5 Harness Power. It looks like I can cover more than half of the DS I lose from 3x Dodge with Spirit Defense (103) and gain quite a bit of TD and bolt defense in exchange. Sounds kind of like a witch-hunter build, might try it out with my extra fixskills.

~ Thanks!

[Whirlin]

Spells cost 0/67, Dodge costs 8/4 for the third rank. Since you're a square, I'm assuming physical starved, so that dodge rank ends up being 0/20. That's about 3.4 ranks of Dodge = 1 spell.

Since you're using a bow, you're obviously not using a shield, so the evade equation is: Base Value * Armor Value * Stance Modifier. Armor value... we'll just say plate, cause this is for demonstrative purposes only. Full plate has a .83 armor value, and offensive has a .75 stance modifier. So each rank of Dodge is resulting in .6059 DS in offensive. Ranged DS gets a 1.5x multiplier to this... so .90885 for ranged DS in offensive per rank.

103 yields +10 DS. Those 3 ranks of spells cost 201 TP, that's 10 ranks of dodge. Without even continuing, we know that will provide more DS.

107 only provides +25 RANGED DS at the cost of 268 TP, which would 13 ranks of dodge, or about 12 ranged DS. The TD is a nice bonus though. The big tradeoff is that you're also sacrificing about 6 physical melee DS for this purely ranged DS.

The big question becomes whether or not this would impact your redux at all/materially. Mathematically it works out to at least get 103, and subjectively 107.

[m444w]

get ewave and you don't have to worry about defense.

[Aphylo]

Hmm, I didn't consider distilling all the skills down to their TP costs. That might make all these choices easier to make. Thanks Whirlin. I think I might be willing to make that tradeoff for the TD since I hunt quite a bit of undead and so far, many of them happen to be spellcasters.

Anyway, lots to think about.

~ ~

The difference between all the different builds in offensive using my stats:

Brawl/Edged with 2xShield, 2xDodge: 108
Bow with 3xDodge: 100
Brawl with 3xDodge, .5xTWC: 98
Bow with 3xDodge, MS103: 110

I don't know why I thought I had better DS with the Bow than with a Shield. Perhaps I only had 1xDodge with the Shield build when I compared them initially. Unless I'm also adding things up wrong. Also, it looks like I can take Minor Spiritual up to 103 and 5 Harness Power and keep 3x Dodge. Just had to drop CM down to 1x.


get ewave and you don't have to worry about defense.

Uh, I'm not really so sure about that. :p Also, I can't afford that many spells at this point. Unless, I seriously stop taking any defensive skills at all.

~ ~

Ok, Bow with 3xDodge, Minor Spiritual to 103 would look something like:

1.5x Armor Use
2x Ranged Weapons
1x Combat Maneuvers
2x Ambush
1x Physical Training
3x Dodge
20 Climbing
5 Swimming
2x Stalking & Hiding
2x Perception
5 First Aid
5 Trade
1x Survival

[Donquix]

Hmm, I didn't consider distilling all the skills down to their TP costs. That might make all these choices easier to make. Thanks Whirlin. I think I might be willing to make that tradeoff for the TD since I hunt quite a bit of undead and so far, many of them happen to be spellcasters.

Anyway, lots to think about.



Uh, I'm not really so sure about that. :p Also, I can't afford that many spells at this point. Unless, I seriously stop taking any defensive skills at all.

You should be able to have ewave by ~30 without sacrificing too much.

[Aphylo]

You should be able to have ewave by ~30 without sacrificing too much.

Hm, even if that is the case it sounds like a mana intensive way to hunt. I'd have to get a lot more than 5 HP. Or is the e-wave only used in certain situations?

[Aphylo]

1.5x Armor Use
2x Ranged Weapons
1x Combat Maneuvers
2x Ambush
1x Physical Training
3x Dodge
20 Climbing
5 Swimming
2x Stalking & Hiding
2x Perception
5 First Aid
5 Trade
1x Survival

Had my first ever death on the rogue today with the build above. Shield too stronk. Miss it already. Though I suppose if I hadn't been cocky and used Spirit Barrier (102) things would have been fine.

Might move back to Shield/Brawl or Edged with the upcoming fixskills.


With all this spell-talk isn't some harness power gonna be needed at some point?

I was wondering about that too. How much HP would an e-wave build even need to be able finish a hunt to fried.

[Drektor]

With all this spell-talk isn't some harness power gonna be needed at some point?

[Aphylo]

Alright, after messing around with spells, I think I'm just going to stick with physical stuff from now on. Those 3 spells and 5 Harness Power really did a number on my Redux. I didn't realize I've been taking it for granted and I want it back. More than previously even. I see two possibilities: one with Edged Weapons and the other in Brawling. I prefer UAC, but most folk seem to be saying OHE is just fine. And with my woefully inadequate amount of TP, OHE really seems the only logical choice at the moment.

Shield/OHE

2x Physical Training priority
2x Shield Use
2x Dodge
2x Ambush
1.5x Combat Maneuvers
2x Edged Weapons
2x Stalking & Hiding
2x Perception
30 Armor Use
20 Climbing
5 Swimming
5 First Aid
5 Trading
1x Survival

Once more, any advice or critique of the build above is appreciated. Edit: I'll probably carry a buckler, a blessable regular handaxe and a flaring shortsword. And a flaring dagger if I can aim consistently. Since I have no extra TPs, I'll stick to brigandine for now.

~ 7418 ~

[Jeril]

Alright, after messing around with spells, I think I'm just going to stick with physical stuff from now on. Those 3 spells and 5 Harness Power really did a number on my Redux. I didn't realize I've been taking it for granted and I want it back. More than previously even. I see two possibilities: one with Edged Weapons and the other in Brawling. I prefer UAC, but most folk seem to be saying OHE is just fine. And with my woefully inadequate amount of TP, OHE really seems the only logical choice at the moment.

Shield/OHE

2x Physical Training priority
2x Shield Use
2x Dodge
2x Ambush
1.5x Combat Maneuvers
2x Edged Weapons
2x Stalking & Hiding
2x Perception
30 Armor Use
20 Climbing
5 Swimming
5 First Aid
5 Trading
1x Survival

Once more, any advice or critique of the build above is appreciated. Edit: I'll probably carry a buckler, a blessable regular handaxe and a flaring shortsword. And a flaring dagger if I can aim consistently. Since I have no extra TPs, I'll stick to brigandine for now.

~ 7418 ~

If you aren't picking your boxes I'd suggest just 1x in perception.

With a medium shield each rank of dodge is giving you .555 DS in offensive and each rank of shield is giving you .285 DS. Of course with a shield you are also getting +20 just for holding it plus its enchant. With rank 3 in shield swiftness you'd be getting .641 per rank of dodge. If for some reason you happen to be converting p2m and have a lot of ptps I'd take 2x shield over 3x dodge, but if you aren't converting or converting the other way, train in dodge.

If you really wanted to pick you could likely drop cman and ambush both down to free up the points for it.

[Viekn]

If you aren't picking your boxes I'd suggest just 1x in perception.

With a medium shield each rank of dodge is giving you .555 DS in offensive and each rank of shield is giving you .285 DS. Of course with a shield you are also getting +20 just for holding it plus its enchant. With rank 3 in shield swiftness you'd be getting .641 per rank of dodge. If for some reason you happen to be converting p2m and have a lot of ptps I'd take 2x shield over 3x dodge, but if you aren't converting or converting the other way, train in dodge.

If you really wanted to pick you could likely drop cman and ambush both down to free up the points for it.

Because using a shield gives you a pretty good boost to DS anyway with the base +20 plus the enchant DS, if one had a training plan where it was important to them to train in auxiliary skills and they were short on TP's, could they essentially use a shield but forego shield training and still be fine, as long as they were still 2x or 3x dodge?

[Jeril]

Because using a shield gives you a pretty good boost to DS anyway with the base +20 plus the enchant DS, if one had a training plan where it was important to them to train in auxiliary skills and they were short on TP's, could they essentially use a shield but forego shield training and still be fine, as long as they were still 2x or 3x dodge?

Well for a rogue 3x dodge is 8/4 while 1x shield use is just 4/0, so roughly 2.5 shield use ranks at 1x cost can be gained over 3x dodge which would give you more DS. I'd certainly say to train dodge up to 2x before shield use.

[Aphylo]

If you aren't picking your boxes I'd suggest just 1x in perception.

With a medium shield each rank of dodge is giving you .555 DS in offensive and each rank of shield is giving you .285 DS. Of course with a shield you are also getting +20 just for holding it plus its enchant. With rank 3 in shield swiftness you'd be getting .641 per rank of dodge. If for some reason you happen to be converting p2m and have a lot of ptps I'd take 2x shield over 3x dodge, but if you aren't converting or converting the other way, train in dodge.

If you really wanted to pick you could likely drop cman and ambush both down to free up the points for it.

I'm converting m2p, do you mean I should take 3x dodge and 2x shield? I'm also using a small shield, is it better if I move up to medium?

Edit: After looking into it, doesn't look like I can actually do 3x dodge and 2x shield every level. Though 3x dodge and 1x shield is doable.

[Jeril]

I'm converting m2p, do you mean I should take 3x dodge and 2x shield? I'm also using a small shield, is it better if I move up to medium?

Heh, I meant small shield, sorry about that. And it means you should be training 3x dodge over 2x shield use. Although if you want more DS you can always change your training around to be 3x dodge and 2x shield use, which would be kind of crazy. Getting technical about it if converting p2m train shield use to max swiftness then 3x dodge because at that point dodge becomes the cheaper DS. Doesn't apply to you but someone else might find the information useful.

[Aphylo]

Thanks Jeril. That makes sense. My only major concern is with only 1x Shield Use, it might not be as effective at protecting against Creature Maneuvers that can be blocked with a shield. But perhaps 2x Physical Training will be enough.

[Jeril]

Thanks Jeril. That makes sense. My only major concern is with only 1x Shield Use, it might not be as effective at protecting against Creature Maneuvers that can be blocked with a shield. But perhaps 2x Physical Training will be enough.

I don't know of too many of those out there, so I don't think I'd be very concerned about them. And that PF will help you against all maneuvers not just those few where a shield might help.

[Aphylo]

sigh

After 3 fixskills and $45 later, I'm back to my original build, albeit with some minor changes. I guess it's true that most builds work, just got to figure out what I like. And that seems to be punching things in the face.

7438