ambush weighting from hiding

[TheBastardOfStark]

So ive looked all over and i cant find any good sources on this. Ive read whirlins phantom dex thread and a few others and cant get any sort of definitive guess range. Im trying to figure out what weapons benifeit and what amount of weighting i could look for. Im willing to help do testing and such to help figure this out.

[Whirlin]

So... here's the thing... There's a LOT we don't know, and it's a BITCH to test due to Crit randomization.

While I had done some preliminary research on phantom Dex... there's an underlying assumption that phantom dex relies on Dex, and not some other stat. Plus, my data points consisted of a single character testing this. What I found were potential limits. We don't know anymore than that.

-Were the limits caused by target's armor? Is Phantom dex crit evaluation subjective based on the critter's armor?
-Were the limits caused by different Dex Bonus divisors per weapon? Will more people test the weapons and have similar results? What if people have lower Dex?
-Is there a level versus level factor in phantom Dex weighting? I was fighting level retarded critters.
-What critters have natural crit padding. Mark confirmed that Boars have crit padding... What about subtle amounts of crit padding in other critters? We can't even begin to analyze this unless we establish a baseline!

So, that's just in the phantom space. Whee.

Then we need to do analysis on the ambushing space:
-How much does ambushing ranks impact the equation?
-Could hiding better influence ambushing weighting?
-Does room lighting have any effect?
-Is Combat Maneuvers taken into account when ambushing?


Then there's another level of analysis with how they all interact with eachother:
-How does phantom weighting interact with crit weighting on weapons?
-How does phantom weighting interact with crit weighting from ambushing?
-How does Phantom weighting interact with crit weighting on weapons paired with crit weighting while ambushing?
-How does physical crit weighting interact with ambushing weighting?


I also need to point out... it was a BITCH to get definitive records of hitting the sweet spots to determine phantom weighting. Easily 100 swings + per weapon type. Even then, I can't guarantee that what I had identified was the maximum within the range, or just the highest that I observed before artificially giving up.

[droit]

That being said, I did some testing with Gnimble's help back when I was still sword and board and at probably around 1.5x ambush. Measured a bunch of hits on tritons, so like level at cap, with an unweighted perfect dagger and giantman DEX (20 bonus). We saw hits with up to 50+ points of weighting.

[kutter]

I applaud those people that want to know in order to know, but from a game play perspective, I am not sure it makes much difference. Even in my 20's my rogue would probably get one shot kills to the head with a handaxe half of the time, now with dual wakisashi, the number of death crits to the eye went up obviously because now he has two chances and his aim is better. I even stumbled on a weighted wakizashi and could not see any difference in it from a non-weighted one. So while it would be nice to know just to know because that is the way our brain works, I am not sure from an optimization standpoint it is nearly as important as some other things; but maybe it is from a minimalist standpoint so you could know what you need but not be wasting TP's.

[DaCapn]

I recall a computation of somewhere around 40-50 points of effective weighting once calculated from a capped player ambushing.

The main reason there's not a detailed investigation here is because, in addition to skills and stats, level and natural padding play a role in computation. Beyond that, we have a decent general sense between the breaking points in training (1x, 1.5x, 2x ambush) and it's not particularly helpful to predict your exact weighting at some level. Though it's quite do-able to casually monitor your progress or have a one-off calculation.

Best of luck if you engage in a thorough test.

[Whirlin]

I dunno... I don't want to discourage him from doing testing... because... science!

[JackWhisper]

For some reason, I find it a bit overpowered if an ambusher has 40-50 points of weighting just from ambushing. Is that accurate?

[droit]

50 points was with a dagger, which probably gets the most weighting of any weapon type.

[JackWhisper]

.....So with a normal random ass dagger. At cap. If you ambush anything, you get post-claidhmore weighting?

[droit]

Yep. And let's not forget that a puncture to the eye is the only guaranteed death crit, after randomization.

[Whirlin]

.....So with a normal random ass dagger. At cap. If you ambush anything, you get post-claidhmore weighting?

Additional factors to consider:
-Enough damage needs to be done to get a rank 1 critical with a dagger's DF.
-Ambushing has the height versus height calculation applied... so halflings can't hit things like troll king's head
-Ambushing also gets stance pushdown... bastards.
-Slower attacks

[droit]

Additional factors to consider:
-Enough damage needs to be done to get a rank 1 critical with a dagger's DF.

Specifically, a 247 endroll vs plate to even activate the weighting. Also:

-Extra TP costs for Hide and Ambush.
-Damage type randomization

[JackWhisper]

Okay, that makes me feel a bit better.

I was about to swap from my insane lance to a fucking random ass dagger...

[Latrinsorm]

Yep. And let's not forget that a puncture to the eye is the only guaranteed death crit, after randomization.The randomization is (max / 2) rounded up, so slash eye, crush head, and crush neck also work.

[droit]

The randomization is (max / 2) rounded up, so slash eye, crush head, and crush neck also work.

That's right. I forgot it rounded up. However, puncture to the eye is the only crit that is a guaranteed kill at both rank 8 and rank 9.

[TheBastardOfStark]

That's right. I forgot it rounded up. However, puncture to the eye is the only crit that is a guaranteed kill at both rank 8 and rank 9.
You should be able to do the eye puncture on a 7 as well. Ill have to do. Some testing, i was more trying to figure out a minimum so i can figure min endroll for crits across a variety of weapons. Im planning on focusing on katar,dagger,mace,maul. I want to focus the crush only for head and slash puncture only for eye. I left out estoc because cmon its an estoc. Im on my phone now but when i get home ill check more. Whats a good script to track the crits i know gib wrote one any others?

[Riltus]

You should be able to do the eye puncture on a 7 as well. Ill have to do. Some testing, i was more trying to figure out a minimum so i can figure min endroll for crits across a variety of weapons. Im planning on focusing on katar,dagger,mace,maul. I want to focus the crush only for head and slash puncture only for eye. I left out estoc because cmon its an estoc. Im on my phone now but when i get home ill check more. Whats a good script to track the crits i know gib wrote one any others?

The table lists the minimum damage required to achieve each crit rank/armor group combination.



Crit Rank|AG 1|AG 2|AG 3|AG 4|AG 5
R1|4.5|5.5|6.5|8.5|10.5
R2|9.5|11.5|13.5|17.5|21.5
R3|14.5|17.5|20.5|26.5|32.5
R4|19.5|23.5|27.5|35.5|43.5
R5|24.5|29.5|34.5|44.5|54.5
R6|29.5|35.5|41.5|53.5|65.5
R7|34.5|41.5|48.5|62.5|76.5
R8|39.5|47.5|55.5|71.5|87.5
R9|44.5|53.5|62.5|80.5|98.5

Use the following formula to convert these damage values to their corresponding endrolls.


100 + round up(table value/weapon damage factor) = Minimum Endroll

Example:

The minimum endroll required for a rank 5 critical with a maul vs brig (AG 3)

Table value (R5,AG3): 34.5
Maul DF vs scale: .425


100 + round up(34.5/.425) = ER 182

You need to adjust the formula when factoring in critical weighting and/or padding. Simply subtract weighting and add padding to the table values with the caveat that there must be minimum raw damage sufficient to inflict a R1 crit. Weighting cannot reduce the value below the rank 1 damage threshold.

Example w/crit weighting:

Table value (R5,AG3): 34.5
Maul DF vs scale: .425
Critical weighting: 10 pts.

The minimum endroll required for a rank 5 critical with an HCW maul vs brig is 158.


100 + round up(34.5 - 10)/.425 = ER 158

R5 crit minimum ERs with maul and mace.



MAUL


AG|DF|Min ER (R5)
1|.500|145
2|.425|170
3|.425|182
4|.375|219
5|.300|282



MACE


AG|DF|Min ER (R5)
1|.400|162
2|.300|199
3|.225|254
4|.250|279
5|.175|412


Mark