The Rebirth topic

[Astray]

So, instead of hijacking the other thread completely, let's discuss a rebirth system here!

What would you most like to see out of a rebirth system in Gemstone?

[Latrinsorm]

...why in ALAE though?

[Astray]

Oh. Shit.

I thought I clicked General Gemstone but that's... like... 4 down. HA!

[waywardgs]

...why in ALAE though?

ALAE folder hasn't been used in probably a decade. Might as well post something in it.

[Astray]

ALAE folder hasn't been used in probably a decade. Might as well post something in it.

Yeah. I'm a humanitarian. Give stuff to those who have nothing.

[WRoss]

What are you talking about rebirth? Like re-classing?

[Gelston]

What are you talking about rebirth? Like re-classing?

No. Having a sex change, time travelling back, meeting yourself, banging yourself and then later birthing yourself.

Wait no, that was this stupid movie I saw that people think was good for some reason.

[Astray]

What are you talking about rebirth? Like re-classing?

Re-classing was spoken of.

Being able to reset a character while maintaining something from them beyond items. Like uh... preserving stats or skills or spells before moving another class entirely.

[JackWhisper]

Can't do stats.

Would infringe on Simu's fixstat potion sales.

Pick something else.

:thinking:

[Astray]

Can't do stats.

Would infringe on Simu's fixstat potion sales.

Pick something else.

:thinking:

Pick a single skill, perhaps?

[JackWhisper]

Pick a single skill, perhaps?

I think a single skill is asking a bit much of the player, to be honest.

In the regard that it's not enough of a benefit to rebirth to base with ONE skill. There's several dozen skills. So you'd have to reclass what takes a bare minimum of 8-9months hardcore playing time? Like hardcore hardcore? For.... OHE capped at birth? Or rather, wouldn't work like that. They'd give you OHE capped at birth, but it only maxes per level. Like at level 5, it's maxed to what level 5 can do, without needing to train in it. I actually think that method would work, the skill time-release, but a singular skill would be a bit sparse for the efforts involved.

That being said, what the hell happened to the project some random person said was going to be developed that they started selling/raffling weapon upkeep items, with special unlocked ones you could sharpen/buff your armaments for minor combat efficiency bonuses? Did that just never get off the ground?

[WRoss]

Pick a single skill, perhaps?

I'll keep my 3x dodge as a rogue and become a pure! Or keep my 167 empath ranks and become a warrior.

[JackWhisper]

Okay, WRoss has a point. Picking a pure spell class like Empath, and making a character who has no access to that spell list, would be quite beneficial. And also promote diversification of character cross-play.

AAAAND then everyone would make a fucking paladin to get those awesome spells. Woo.

[Astray]

I think a single skill is asking a bit much of the player, to be honest.

You could say X amount of skills. A tier system would work rather well and it'd be a decent seller in a cash shop. A potion that grants you up to 4 skills attainable or something. One was just a random number I threw out.

[Tgo01]

Simu nearly had a heart attack at just the mere thought of someone closing a spellbot account down, imagine if someone could have the same character be their own spellbot.

[Astray]

Simu nearly had a heart attack at just the mere thought of someone closing a spellbot account down, imagine if someone could have the same character be their own spellbot.

That's why I'm more leaning towards a "High" whatever class you rebirth. You could reset your class and maintain a multitude of skills, rather than retaining them across X amount of rebirths.

[Latrinsorm]

Chrono Trigger
Character is preserved identically, progresses through the game again gaining equipment and stats as before.
PRO: No loss of power. Can gain levels indefinitely.
CON: Absurdly overpowered at low levels, but have to spend about the same (huge) amount of time on them anyway. Killing a kobold with 5 damage or 500 still only gives 100 exp to a level 1 character.

DDO
Character is reborn identical to a first life character except for slightly increased build points and an inherent bonus to a specific ability relevant to the past life, so a former barbarian gets more HP, a former wizard gets more Spell Penetration, and so on. These bonuses and extra build points can only be stacked to a certain level. Requires dramatically more exp to get back to cap, obviously that part wouldn't be implemented.
PRO: Balanced at early levels. Can gain levels indefinitely.
CON: Small differences at cap can be very significant, leading to imbalance between first lifers and second+, leading some to feel they MUST rebirth, leading to resentment, leading to hate, leading to suffering.

Latinstorm
Characters gain nothing whatsoever from rebirthing. The only difference is that EXP requirements for each level are reduced by 1000 per life up to 10000. (Numbers are arbitrary. I would check the wiki and come up with better figures but... you know.) Rebirthing only matters for people who want to level up, so let's make it easier for them to level up!
PRO: Balanced at every level. Can gain levels indefinitely.
CON: None.

[JackWhisper]

Chrono Trigger
Character is preserved identically, progresses through the game again gaining equipment and stats as before.
PRO: No loss of power. Can gain levels indefinitely.
CON: Absurdly overpowered at low levels, but have to spend about the same (huge) amount of time on them anyway. Killing a kobold with 5 damage or 500 still only gives 100 exp to a level 1 character.

DDO
Character is reborn identical to a first life character except for slightly increased build points and an inherent bonus to a specific ability relevant to the past life, so a former barbarian gets more HP, a former wizard gets more Spell Penetration, and so on. These bonuses and extra build points can only be stacked to a certain level. Requires dramatically more exp to get back to cap, obviously that part wouldn't be implemented.
PRO: Balanced at early levels. Can gain levels indefinitely.
CON: Small differences at cap can be very significant, leading to imbalance between first lifers and second+, leading some to feel they MUST rebirth, leading to resentment, leading to hate, leading to suffering.

Latinstorm
Characters gain nothing whatsoever from rebirthing. The only difference is that EXP requirements for each level are reduced by 1000 per life up to 10000. (Numbers are arbitrary. I would check the wiki and come up with better figures but... you know.) Rebirthing only matters for people who want to level up, so let's make it easier for them to level up!
PRO: Balanced at every level. Can gain levels indefinitely.
CON: None.

Latrinsorm misspelled his own name. Carry on.

[JackWhisper]

CON:leading to resentment, leading to hate, leading to suffering.


Dude, you obviously didn't read the retardposts when Kenstrom was giving out RPA's. The officials had like a half dozen people, all with capped, literally threatening to shut down their accounts and saying Kenstrom was a failure and a horrible GM and this and that and the other thing. All because they didn't want people catching up to them at cap.

We have plenty of that stuff here! More wouldn't do anything. =P

[Astray]

Giving exp cutbacks up to 10,000 is pointless. You'd have players who refuse/don't want to rebirth complaining that these 'new' characters have exp cut back and blah blah blah, bitch bitch bitch.

[JackWhisper]

If they instituted a rebirthing for our classes, they can't make it MORE difficult to get back to cap. Quite simply, it goes against even SimuLogic, due to how long it takes to get to cap in the first place.

[Astray]

If they instituted a rebirthing for our classes, they can't make it MORE difficult to get back to cap. Quite simply, it goes against even SimuLogic, due to how long it takes to get to cap in the first place.

Ragnarok was a game that fucked players during Rebirth. You'd have more exp to gain and lower gain percentage. To the point you were literally getting .01% on monsters that were absolutely insane to kill solo. I even remember boss monsters giving, at most, 5%. You'd spend months leveling from 50-75 and 75-100 sucked shit.

[JackWhisper]

Yeah but take Ragnarok's leveling 0-100 without rebirth, then compare it to Gemstone's leveling 0-100.

You see my point. It may catch up in difficulty after a few rebirths in Ragnarok, but Gemstone can't make theirs WORSE because it's already the worst grind, period.

[Astray]

If Gemstone went to immediate exp absorption, it'd be easier. Just far far easier. The system now is just ancient and incredibly slow.

[Latrinsorm]

Giving exp cutbacks up to 10,000 is pointless. You'd have players who refuse/don't want to rebirth complaining that these 'new' characters have exp cut back and blah blah blah, bitch bitch bitch.But the exp cutback only gets them back to the same place. For as ridiculous as the complaints Jack cites are, they are at least internally consistent: people want to have an advantage over others. In this case, reborn wouldn't gain an advantage with reduced releveling requirements, they would only have less of a disadvantage.
Latrinsorm misspelled his own name. Carry on.You got the joke. Your high five is in the mail.

[JackWhisper]

If Gemstone went to immediate exp absorption, it'd be easier. Just far far easier. The system now is just ancient and incredibly slow.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070619082403AAM2YTu

Stupidest. Word. Ever.

[JackWhisper]

To do anything constructive with the game at a depth like rebirth, they have to offer up some fixes to the length of leveling from zero to cap.

Maybe a half-rebirth? You can rebirth for a smaller reward at 50? Maybe you get tired at 30 on your sorc and don't care? Even smaller reward, but still a reward. And then you can move onto a class you might find more enjoyable!

Donno. Maybe?

ETA: I know halfway is 63.5. But still. Point stands.

[Astray]

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070619082403AAM2YTu

Stupidest. Word. Ever.

That was a weird laugh this elicited from me.

[JackWhisper]

I think a HUGE thing, that wouldn't fuck over the game, would be level-matching.

Group with your level 33 wizard buddy as your capped ranger, and bam. You're a level 33 ranger. Now you can fight together. You get XP too, just at a reduced rate. A LOT of games have done this, and it would seriously help the game prosper with this F2P success.

[JackWhisper]

That was a weird laugh this elicited from me.

You know I'm right! :lol:

[Astray]

To do anything constructive with the game at a depth like rebirth, they have to offer up some fixes to the length of leveling from zero to cap.

Maybe a half-rebirth? You can rebirth for a smaller reward at 50? Maybe you get tired at 30 on your sorc and don't care? Even smaller reward, but still a reward. And then you can move onto a class you might find more enjoyable!

Donno. Maybe?

ETA: I know halfway is 63.5. But still. Point stands.

In all fairness, Cap is just an idea. If you did it yearly, you would want it to be cap, I'd imagine. If it were a cash shop thing, you should be able to do it whenever you want.

[Taernath]

Can we call it something else? It reminds me of UNbirthing* which is gross. How about multi-class or re-class.


*dare you Google this?

[JackWhisper]

Cap is just an idea. But it's a solid idea that reflects one thing. The completion of skills. I don't care about cap, or 3x cap. All that matters is maxing the skills. 303 ranks. 202 ranks. 101 ranks.

Past that, I don't care.

[JackWhisper]

Can we call it something else? It reminds me of UNbirthing* which is gross. How about multi-class or re-class.


*dare you Google this?

Unbirthing (also known by the Furspeech term, Re-Whelped) is used to describe the paraphilia involving the desire to be "swallowed alive" by female genitalia, or when a female fur takes another into her womb and "gestates" that fur for a time as her own unborn child.

[Astray]

Can we call it something else? It reminds me of UNbirthing* which is gross. How about multi-class or re-class.


*dare you Google this?

Transcending? 2nd Classing? C'mon man, get your brain out of the gutter.

[Whirlin]

I think a HUGE thing, that wouldn't fuck over the game, would be level-matching.

Group with your level 33 wizard buddy as your capped ranger, and bam. You're a level 33 ranger. Now you can fight together. You get XP too, just at a reduced rate. A LOT of games have done this, and it would seriously help the game prosper with this F2P success.

They introduced this in FFXI a while before I quit... It was a HUGE success... HOWEVER. I don't think it would work too well for Gemstone.

Young critters in gemstone are ridiculously easy. I commonly assert that Gemstone really doesn't start until level 60, as that's when combinations of casters, CMANs, or environmental things really start to come into play.

I could see a self-imposed cap easily result in a F2P account, constantly rerolled to level 0 while a capped character hunts the shit out of rats while under a level matching system.

[Whirlin]

Regarding the rebirth system... I can't imagine a straight multiclassing to not be game-breaking in gemstone.

The only thing that comes to mind would be if skill growth was increased by the number of rebirths, and you could only rebirth at 100. So, instead of the 5x10, 4x10, 3x10, 2x10, 1xforever, you get 5x11, 4x11, 3x11, 2x11, 1xforever... or something to that extent. Absolutely not gamebreaking, but a couple cycles, and that starts to add up... for skills that use bonus. The only caveat that I could think of is that any post-cap EXP that you gain would roll-over, as the effects aren't THAT massive... so you could effectively Rebirth multiple times if you were super post-capped, or start back up at level 50 if you wanted to.

I tried a simulation with 6x10/etc... and the effects were just too huge, even if capping is a massive exercise.

[JackWhisper]

That wouldn't really work, as lower critters don't have enough hp to spread around to give equal exp to a lower character without them killing it themselves.

It's just more work than the reward would be, to try to balance each and every critter.

[JackWhisper]

Regarding the rebirth system... I can't imagine a straight multiclassing to not be game-breaking in gemstone.

The only thing that comes to mind would be if skill growth was increased by the number of rebirths, and you could only rebirth at 100. So, instead of the 5x10, 4x10, 3x10, 2x10, 1xforever, you get 5x11, 4x11, 3x11, 2x11, 1xforever... or something to that extent. Absolutely not gamebreaking, but a couple cycles, and that starts to add up... for skills that use bonus. The only caveat that I could think of is that any post-cap EXP that you gain would roll-over, as the effects aren't THAT massive... so you could effectively Rebirth multiple times if you were super post-capped, or start back up at level 50 if you wanted to.

I tried a simulation with 6x10/etc... and the effects were just too huge, even if capping is a massive exercise.

I have NO CLUE what you said in this paragraph.

[Whirlin]

I have NO CLUE what you said in this paragraph.
Rewrite the equation between Ranks and Bonus, so that ranks give more bonus per rank based on number of rebirths.

Here's a wiki article copy/paste:
A rank refers to how often a character has invested the points in a skill when using the GOALS (https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/GOALS_(verb)) verb. The first 40 ranks of a skill give a higher skill bonus (https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Skill_bonus&action=edit&redlink=1) than the ranks beyond 40, at a decreasing rate.


Ranks 1 through 10 give 5 points to the skill's bonus.
Ranks 11 through 20 give 4 points.
Ranks 21 through 30 give 3 points.
Ranks 31 through 40 give 2 points.
Every ranks 41 and beyond give 1 point.

At rank 40 and beyond, a skill bonus can be calculated as Bonus = 100 + Ranks.
Not every skill uses the bonus provided by the ranks and instead relies only on the skill's ranks to determine benefits; some such skills are the various lores, Multi Opponent Combat (https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Multi_Opponent_Combat), and spell training.

[Fallen]

Rebirth would allow characters the ability to keep the training costs and cap (as in 2 or 3x instead of 1x) of a select set of skills per profession, along with a select few "class abilities".

For example, A rebirthed wizard would retain the costs and training cap for all elemental lores, and the spell of haste, which becomes self-knowledge. A warrior would retain the costs and caps of all weapon types and have the self-knowledge of Berserk.

Any "profession only" CMANs would still be accessible (as in able to be trained in) to the newly rebirthed character at their original cost tiers. This would also apply to lore bonuses, profession-based bonuses (such as ranger foraging bonuses and the sorcerer sacrifice ability). Spells themselves would also behave as if cast natively in terms of rank checks for whichever professions have been previously experienced.

Something like that.

[JackWhisper]

I don't want berserk.

I want their battle shouts.

MMMMM SHOUT ATTACK STRENGTH! WOO!

[Fallen]

I don't want berserk.

I want their battle shouts.

MMMMM SHOUT ATTACK STRENGTH! WOO!

Sure. Whatever was their best thing. Maybe allow for a choice among X abilities. You can spend Simucoins to reset your choice!

[JackWhisper]

This can't be a Simucoin thing.

Simucoins do a lot of shit, but they don't give you serious P2W. This rebirth mechanic would be severely P2W if it was only accessible through Simucoins.

Opinions?

[Fallen]

Simucoins would allow you to modify the choice of some of your benefits, but ultimately the ability is unlocked once you reach cap, or X levels.

How about you can rebirth at cap, or at level 90 with simucoins?

[JackWhisper]

I could see a level convenience with simucoins being acceptable. Convenience versus frugality.

Someone at Simu is going to read this and say, "Lulz. This is coming. RSN."

[Fallen]

Also, for the love of God, you would get a slight experience modifier for every time you rebirth. It makes sense in that you would pick things up more easily each time you started from scratch.

1x per rebirth.

[waywardgs]

I could see a level convenience with simucoins being acceptable. Convenience versus frugality.

Someone at Simu is going to read this and say, "Lulz. This is coming. RSN."

They're reading it now.

[JackWhisper]

The choice modification also, should be a yearly/simucoin thing, much like fixskills/cman pots. Realize you don't like berserk? Bam. buy a potion for whatever, reset it to shouts. Don't like shouts... yadda yadda.

This actually could be a thing if it was tempered with some common sense. And it would completely change and empower the game.

Fuck me when Kaedra does this and has like 8 fucking skills.

Kaedra: Selling enchanting/ensorcelling/ranger resists/lockpicking/loresinging services. Come to my table.

*World facepalm*

[JackWhisper]

Also, for the love of God, you would get a slight experience modifier for every time you rebirth. It makes sense in that you would pick things up more easily each time you started from scratch.

.5x per rebirth

I would LOVE to see this. I think that it should be less, but it should happen.

After you reach a certain XP threshold, you get a minor XP modifier permanently attached to the character. +1 per pulse, or a +0.1x permanent RPA modifier. 0.5 would be pretty insane when stacked a few times. You'd be permanently working with a 2x-4x rpa. That'd get nuts real fast.

[Fallen]

I would LOVE to see this. I think that it should be less, but it should happen.

After you reach a certain XP threshold, you get a minor XP modifier permanently attached to the character. +1 per pulse, or a +0.1x permanent RPA modifier. 0.5 would be pretty insane when stacked a few times. You'd be permanently working with a 2x-4x rpa. That'd get nuts real fast.

You're talking about people who have at a minimum capped, let alone double capped, triple capped. That's nuts. Cap it at 3x and it would still take ages.

How about if it starts out high and tapers off? 3x for X levels, then 2x, then gone. Each rebirth extends the window for the bonuses out to further levels.

[Latrinsorm]

Rebirth would allow characters the ability to keep the training costs and cap (as in 2 or 3x instead of 1x) of a select set of skills per profession, along with a select few "class abilities".

For example, A rebirthed wizard would retain the costs and training cap for all elemental lores, and the spell of haste, which becomes self-knowledge. A warrior would retain the costs and caps of all weapon types and have the self-knowledge of Berserk.

Any "profession only" CMANs would still be accessible (as in able to be trained in) to the newly rebirthed character at their original cost tiers. This would also apply to lore bonuses, profession-based bonuses (such as ranger foraging bonuses and the sorcerer sacrifice ability). Spells themselves would also behave as if cast natively in terms of rank checks for whichever professions have been previously experienced.

Something like that.This would be super duper unbalanced. You're talking about giving a wizard +100 AS with a single past life.

[JackWhisper]

This would be super duper unbalanced. You're talking about giving a wizard +100 AS with a single past life.

There would need to be balancing, but it would make a difference in capped, where now there is almost none.

A 10mil xp cleric can have the same CS as a 50mil xp cleric.

This notion would give an appreciable difference for the effort the 50mil xp cleric put in.

Opinions?

[Fallen]

Exactly. Tweak as needed, but essentially yes, you will be overpowered to some extent. How is that any different from people with insane gear or who MAs?

[SashaFierce]

Instead of focusing on adding benefits, what about making current skills/spells cost less PtP/MtP?

Every time you "rebirthed" you would be stronger, because it would be cheaper to train in the skill of your choice.

As an example, instead of spells costing 16/32/64, they would cost 8/16/32.

[Fallen]

That was essentially my idea, but you limit it to specific skills per profession that you capped. However, you still only have so many points to train in with your new character, so additional perks are needed to sweeten the pot.

It's kinda like how Semis make for the most powerful characters once post capped, because they can train affordably in so many skills and now have the points to do so. However, here you wouldn't be going post-cap, you would likely immediately choose rebirth.

[JackWhisper]

Exactly. Tweak as needed, but essentially yes, you will be overpowered to some extent. How is that any different from people with insane gear or who MAs?

MAing is a different sort of beast. I can't touch on that without seriously diverting this entertaining topic.

Insane gear, however, is just that. Insane gear. There's not a lot of it, but it is out there. I have an insane lance that would be killer on any class that wants to swing a lance.

Oh god, rolling over a rebirthed paladin to include Sanctify as my kept skill. YES FRIGGIN PLEASE. Then I'd play a warrior. MWAHAHA.

Gear is tradable. You can't trade your XP. Can a comparison really be made? It seems a different sort of thing. Related, but not quite.

[JackWhisper]

That was essentially my idea, but you limit it to specific skills per profession that you capped. However, you still only have so many points to train in with your new character, so additional perks are needed to sweeten the pot.

It's kinda like how Semis make for the most powerful characters once post capped, because they can train affordably in so many skills and now have the points to do so. However, here you wouldn't be going post-cap, you would likely immediately choose rebirth.



Maybe. MAAAYBE... here's a thought.

Let's say you get 50 PTP/MTP per level. Whatever, just say you do. At the end of level 100, you have 5000 PTP/MTP.

You rebirth, and gain 50 PTP/MTP per level again, on a different class.

BUT, now you gain a secondary XP, at... let's say 20% rate. So for every 5 PTP/MTP you gain for your main class, your sub class gains 1 PTP/MTP. You can then utilize those secondary PTP/MTP *and CANNOT TRANSFER THEM TO/FROM YOUR CURRENT MAIN CLASS FOR CONVERSION PURPOSES* to train in skills from your past life.

1000 PTP/MTP by the time you cap your rebirth seems pretty generous, but not nearly gamebreaking. Opinion?

[Fallen]

That sounds pretty nice, though obviously a few spells would be a hell of a lot more useful than a few weapon ranks, no?

How about you take that secondary experience idea and use it to buy back certain skills or abilities from a given pool from that previous profession?

That way you can make the purchases roughly equal in value and balanced across all professions...at least for a while, but eventually you're going to be pretty damned awesome.

[JackWhisper]

That's what I was driving at. The second experience pool buys from your previous class, not your current class.

[Fallen]

That's what I was driving at. The second experience pool buys from your previous class, not your current class.

Yeah, but it wouldn't be balanced if they were just PTP and MTPs as buying spells would be better than training up 10 ranks of blunt weapons.

You'd instead earn rebirth points that you could then spend on a list of profession-specific spells, abilities or perks from that precious class. That way you get a tangible benefit all at once, and pure benefits wouldn't outclass square benefits or visa versa.

[JackWhisper]

Yeah, but it wouldn't be balanced if they were just PTP and MTPs as buying spells would be better than training up 10 ranks of blunt weapons.

You'd instead earn rebirth points that you could then spend on a list of profession-specific spells, abilities or perks from that precious class. That way you get a tangible benefit all at once, and pure benefits wouldn't outclass square benefits or visa versa.

A previous class skill set wouldn't include that sort of thing, shy of you wanting to max 303 ranks versus 101/202 ranks. Which could be very cool for a LOT of classes that melee. Bringing rebirth XP a HUGE distance after a few rebirths, to being useful for a warrior to dedicate himself to martial abilities and not spells.

I'd figure the rebirth skill list to be stuff specific to THAT class. Spells and such, and rank amounts being able to be extended. There isn't a LOT of versatility, but there's some.

ETA: CMan access as well, could be a unique thing. You train CMan with your second class, get access to that CMan list. Ooh interesting.

[Fallen]

Eh, I'd rather buy perks outright than having to train them up rank by rank.

I'm with you on the CMAN access, though.

[Latrinsorm]

There would need to be balancing, but it would make a difference in capped, where now there is almost none. A 10mil xp cleric can have the same CS as a 50mil xp cleric. This notion would give an appreciable difference for the effort the 50mil xp cleric put in. Opinions?This introduces (a weaker version of) the same old uncapped design problem. You can't make an area that challenges two wizards with 100 difference in AS. You think the lack of capped hunting areas is bad now? Imagine the world where only one out of three capped areas is relevant to your capped character depending on if it has no past lives, one, or all of them.
Exactly. Tweak as needed, but essentially yes, you will be overpowered to some extent. How is that any different from people with insane gear or who MAs?Insane gear is hard limited by how much they make of it, and even if you change it to only(!) +50 AS for a single past life you're almost double the difference between 10x and 4x gear. MAing is obviously a problem already, making another mechanic would double the problem, and unless reborn characters cost double Simu has no perverse incentive to empower them.
That was essentially my idea, but you limit it to specific skills per profession that you capped. However, you still only have so many points to train in with your new character, so additional perks are needed to sweeten the pot.Why?
Instead of focusing on adding benefits, what about making current skills/spells cost less PtP/MtP? Every time you "rebirthed" you would be stronger, because it would be cheaper to train in the skill of your choice. As an example, instead of spells costing 16/32/64, they would cost 8/16/32.This is a lot better from a design perspective. It also would be sweeter in the earlier levels, another good thing.

[JackWhisper]

To address the design problem for capped, just put in post-cap areas that involve rebirthed critters.

You think Greater Water Elementals are badass?

Now imagine them rebirthed.

ETA: Hunting ground only accessible if you have rebirth under your belt, to prevent exploiting higher level loot pressure advantage.

[Fallen]

Just lowering the cost for skills doesn't add anything other than reaching the limits of being capped sooner. You'd be able to do slightly more stuff within your own profession sooner. Might as well stay capped and accumulate experience.

Isn't worth it, except for maybe rolling into a semi if you don't like your current profession.

[Latrinsorm]

Just lowering the cost for skills doesn't add anything other than reaching the limits of being capped sooner. You'd be able to do slightly more stuff within your own profession sooner. Might as well stay capped and accumulate experience. Isn't worth it, except for maybe rolling into a semi if you don't like your current profession.I don't think I'm being clear. The problem you're solving is one that only creates more problems: creating ever stronger capped characters, requiring ever more hunting areas, defeating the purpose of a level cap. The rebirthing solution that offers no power increase is intended to solve a totally different problem: some people just want to keep leveling up for its own sake. Saying "might as well stay capped" is only taking the point of view of someone who wants their character to grow more powerful. I'm not saying either view is right or wrong, because those descriptions don't make sense in this context. I'm saying that there are different views, which is why one side says such rebirthing DOES add something and yours says it DOESN'T. Both sides are true, from a certain point of view. The key distinction is that the designer can satisfy the people who just want to level without affecting balance in any way. To satisfy your side requires rebirthing with significant benefit, and such benefit by definition is unbalancing.
To address the design problem for capped, just put in post-cap areas that involve rebirthed critters. You think Greater Water Elementals are badass? Now imagine them rebirthed. ETA: Hunting ground only accessible if you have rebirth under your belt, to prevent exploiting higher level loot pressure advantage.This is my point, though. You saw the bitter outcry over a new hunting area that is level 95 instead of level 100. Imagine if instead of having very slightly reduced experience and material gains, the new hunting area was entirely off limits to a significant percentage of the population.

It's also not plausible that a hunting area can be balanced with first life enemies (so to speak) and will remain balanced with rebirthed ones, so the idea that developers could get a two-for-one is implausible. We're talking wizards with +100 AS or warriors with self-cast Haste. These are fundamental shifts that might not be possible to balance at all. Again, look at the new area. People are saying the entire area is worthless because the difficulty is inane. Imagine if there were enemy pures with redux and full plate.

[Archigeek]

I would rather see them develop more skills for the mangler; skills that are more of a horizontal move than a vertical one:

Language learning for sure, and I'm not sure what else, but they should be able to come up with something.

Then maybe the addition of one more skill that each profession can 3x train in.

Either way though, I don't think there's much they can do, and it's probably not worth spending the capital on for a game with a dwindling population. Maybe in a few years it will be, after today's FTP group is hitting the cap.

[JackWhisper]

Even with the restrictions, there are a few level 27+ F2P people after a month. That's rough to do even scripting a trial account. Best I got to was 31, and that was going at it pretty hard.

Okay, so how about a lesser thing then, Arch?

How about dependent skills?

You hurl.

But are maxed in everything that effects Hurling AS.

How about training in secondary weapon skills increasing your Hurling AS at 1/10th the efficacy?

And so on and so forth with other skills, to promote higher martial/mystic prowess.

[Archigeek]

Even with the restrictions, there are a few level 27+ F2P people after a month. That's rough to do even scripting a trial account. Best I got to was 31, and that was going at it pretty hard.

Okay, so how about a lesser thing then, Arch?

How about dependent skills?

You hurl.

But are maxed in everything that effects Hurling AS.

How about training in secondary weapon skills increasing your Hurling AS at 1/10th the efficacy?

And so on and so forth with other skills, to promote higher martial/mystic prowess.

Actually for the warrior the obvious solution is to allow 3x CM. The cost would be rediculous, with just the right amount of benefit.

[JackWhisper]

Actually for the warrior the obvious solution is to allow 3x CM. The cost would be rediculous, with just the right amount of benefit.

That'd be way OP, unless they didn't allow you guys to train to 303 cman ranks and USE 303 ranks of cman training. You guys get a LOT of nifty stuff with 202 ranks. An extra 101 would begin to cover the whole map of defensive/offensive bonus things, wouldn't it?

[Fallen]

Other ideas I've seen in the past are to have post-cap points. Stuff you can invest in for minor mechanical benefits at something like 1 mill per "point".

I have no desire to reroll my main just to do shit over again slightly faster. That's useless. I do want to continue to progress in a way that isn't too unbalancing. Unfortunately, right now that means accumulation of gear rather than any training.

[JackWhisper]

Other ideas I've seen in the past are to have post-cap points. Stuff you can invest in for minor mechanical benefits at something like 1 mill per "point".

I have no desire to reroll my main just to do shit over again slightly faster. That's useless. I do want to continue to progress in a way that isn't too unbalancing. Unfortunately, right now that means accumulation of gear rather than any training.

Gear accumulation is hard work! I need super bubble flares and rot flares on my lance still.

[Archigeek]

That'd be way OP, unless they didn't allow you guys to train to 303 cman ranks and USE 303 ranks of cman training. You guys get a LOT of nifty stuff with 202 ranks. An extra 101 would begin to cover the whole map of defensive/offensive bonus things, wouldn't it?

First off, it's like 3.5m exp to get that last rank, about half the EXP it takes to get to cap. In exchange for that, warriors would still come in third for AS, behind bards and paladins, only slightly ahead of the other semi's/squares. CMAN's, at a certain point mostly duplicate in terms of effectiveness. If you have one effective offensive CMAN, the gain from having a second reaches a plateau pretty quickly. The gain in that regard is really pretty small, and could be mitigated easily enough if it were an issue.

[Fallen]

I definitely like the idea of getting post-cap only skill ranks. For squares, 3xing CM makes sense. They could simply remove the AS benefits, or institute diminishing returns in addition to them the points. As Arch says, it's less about power and more about variety and fun.

Pures could see an increase on their lore caps. Semis could possibly see .5x on both CM and lores.

More CMAN points trumps lores, but pures can already 3x spells.

[JackWhisper]

Shit you learn that you didn't know: Bards top end AS is above warriors.

:thinking:

Uhhhh.....

:thinking:

:lol2:

Logic.

[JackWhisper]

First off, it's like 3.5m exp to get that last rank, about half the EXP it takes to get to cap. In exchange for that, warriors would still come third for AS, behind bards and paladins, only slightly ahead of the other semi's/squares. CMAN's, at a certain point mostly duplicate in terms of effectiveness. If you have one effective offensive CMAN, the gain from having a second reaches a plateau pretty quickly. The gain in that regard is really pretty small, and could be mitigated easily enough if it were an issue.

My thought process actually went more towards the defensive side, which you could stack up, and the activatables, like Surge. All those together, and you've got a huge investment of points. An extra 101 ranks of that, would it make you able to more freely train in the defensive/activated section?

[Archigeek]

My thought process actually went more towards the defensive side, which you could stack up, and the activatables, like Surge. All those together, and you've got a huge investment of points. An extra 101 ranks of that, would it make you able to more freely train in the defensive/activated section?

A number of warriors don't even use surge, we use enhancives to max strength, because there's no cost to stamina that way.

I see what you're saying about the defensive side: you could get max parry mastery to go with your max shield mastery, though that isn't that hard to do now. Some of the newer defensive ones are pretty cool, but they don't really fire that often, and the prereq's are weird. I'm not really seeing a big boost to defense, but I'm sure there would be some. We'd all probably max focus for example, and a few others that have small benefits that currently aren't worth the points past the first couple of cheap ranks.

[Latrinsorm]

Other ideas I've seen in the past are to have post-cap points. Stuff you can invest in for minor mechanical benefits at something like 1 mill per "point". I have no desire to reroll my main just to do shit over again slightly faster. That's useless. I do want to continue to progress in a way that isn't too unbalancing. Unfortunately, right now that means accumulation of gear rather than any training.How do you balance it, though? If you don't, are you (Fallen) going to enjoy playing a game where nothing challenges you? If you do, you make it impossible for first lifers to hunt that particular area either de jure or de facto, is that a productive way to design? You can't continue to progress without it eventually presenting a balance issue unless it's capped, and then it doesn't satisfy what you want in the first place. It just changes the endpoint from level 100 to level 100 and umpty-three post-cap points.

[Gelston]

How do you balance it, though? If you don't, are you (Fallen) going to enjoy playing a game where nothing challenges you? If you do, you make it impossible for first lifers to hunt that particular area either de jure or de facto, is that a productive way to design? You can't continue to progress without it eventually presenting a balance issue unless it's capped, and then it doesn't satisfy what you want in the first place. It just changes the endpoint from level 100 to level 100 and umpty-three post-cap points.

As opposed to all the challenges that there are in GS now?

I don't think anyone really plays GS for a challenge, as far as fighting creatures and stuff.

[Fallen]

GS wasn't really a challenge for me due to gear and outside spells from scrolls. Adding in a few more skills/abilities over the course of years of work would make little difference. Pretty much everyone post-cap has effectively mitigated the risks of day-to-day hunting.

People aren't really clamoring for ever harder hunting grounds. They want to be able to hunt at level near their favorite location, preferably with a decent shot of treasure. We also like to enjoy a sense of meaningful progression, not just re rolling over and over for shits and giggles.

[Latrinsorm]

If you already aren't challenged, in what sense is your progression meaningful? I noticed how you went first person plural, btw. :D

[Fallen]

I'm sorry, you've mistaken me for someone that cares to have an ongoing discussion with you.

[JackWhisper]

I'm sorry, you've mistaken me for someone that cares to have an ongoing discussion with you.

I would comment, but I'm busy trying to break Vagante. I figured out the wallwarp. MWAHAHAHAHA.

[Latrinsorm]

I'm sorry, you've mistaken me for someone that cares to have an ongoing discussion with you.:lol: