Ranger Armor (Sword and Board)

[elcidcannon]

So I've seen a lot of discussion on chain vs brig for archers and TWC, but what about a sword and board ambushing ranger?

First off, I've heard whispers that sword/board isn't the most efficient build for a ranger. I'm ok with that, but only to a certain extent. How underpowered of a build is it?

I'm not a heavy magic user....I will use 610/619 if I start get overwhelmed, but don't really use much else (besides defensive spells, obviously). The same will probably go for nature's fury when I get it.

I'm currently at about 26 (1x) ranks and wearing HCP doubles. From what I've read so far, if I'm not concerned about magical penalties, I should go for chain (augmented or hauberk remains a question, too), but will I be able to ambush (I use a handaxe-based weapon or a bodkin, depending on the critter) effectively wearing that?

[droit]

If you don't cast much, you'll want to be in the heaviest armor you can get, but you definitely don't need to rush. You'll be in brig for a good long while, probably until your 50s or 60s. Chain won't affect your hiding noticeably.

[elcidcannon]

Once I hit 30 ranks of armor use, I should be clear to move up to brig?

[Astray]

I stuck around in 4x leathers and just worked my dodge like crazy. Mobility kicks ass.

[elcidcannon]

So, option #2 would be to train out doubles to 8 ranks, and dump the rest into Dodge?

[droit]

Dodge would be expensive compared to a few ranks of armor, especially for a sword and board build instead of archery. Not to mention the fact that your shield will make each dodge rank worth less DS.

[Astray]

So, option #2 would be to train out doubles to 8 ranks, and dump the rest into Dodge?

It's rough because dodge is pretty expensive (7/5 to 1x so 14/10 to double down) for Rangers. If you're comfortable sinking that much into a skill and also being pretty dependent on Mobility, it'll work. That being said, Rangers can pull off some weird mutant builds pretty well, though it's mostly a labor of love through out.

618 is great, since it adds 20 dodge ranks +1 for ever ranger spell after.


Dodge would be expensive compared to a few ranks of armor, especially for a sword and board build instead of archery. Not to mention the fact that your shield will make each dodge rank worth less DS.

This is also a good point. If you're using anything besides a normal sized shield (great or large) you'll receive a severe penalty to dodge.

My advice would be to flat out drop this and pick up Archery. If that's not what you want, go right after the more armor ranks.

[elcidcannon]

My advice would be to flat out drop this and pick up Archery. If that's not what you want, go right after the more armor ranks.

Currently using a buckler. I think I'm going to stick with s/b, at least for a bit longer, at least long enough to see how brig treats me.

Speaking of...what would be the logical progression from 4x HCP doubles? 4x HCP brig? lol

[Astray]

30 ranks will be enough to work off any penalties for brig. 4x works for a while on its own. If you feel you're not comfortable without the HCP, go for that.

[elcidcannon]

I guess what I meant is what flavor of brig would I be able to get an even trade (silvers-wise) for the doubles?

[Astray]

I have no idea.

[Jeril]

Yah, if you've got 4x hcp doubles, probably want about the same in brig. From brig you can jump up to chain class when able and be better off even without padding though.

Are you 1x in both dodge and shield? If you are converting a lot of p2m and have a glut of ptps you'd be better off doing 2x shield use then 1x in each.

[elcidcannon]

Yeah I'm currently 2x shield, 0x dodge.

[GuildRat]

it depends on the doubles' enchant and what you're looking for in brig for barter. I think FGB and equivalent is going for about 12-15 mill?

[elcidcannon]

So... 2x shield use, 0x dodge is a bad idea for a ranger.

1 Rank of Dodge without a shield .705DS in offensive
1 Rank of Dodge when using a buckler generates .55 DS in offensive
1 Rank of Shield use with a buckler generates .283 DS in offensive

Use of a shield generates 20 DS, while reducing every rank of evade by .15 DS and generating .283 DS.
While, this doesn't seem like it would matter... Mobility also grants Dodge ranks, so you rarely have 0 that you're using.

The only way that shield use really makes sense if it you have a surplus of PTP, and are not converting any to MTP, otherwise Evade is a better bet for rangers.

transplanted

[Malisai]

Sticking my nose in. I know at least one ranger who used sword and board and FGB all the way to cap, and is still using that armor to hunt the rift, including the scatter. So if you want to stay in brig you can, and you can be successful doing so.

[Neovik1]

I wonder what kinda crazy ranger would hunt with such an archaic style of hunting.

[Whirlin]

If you want to be stealthy, I recommend brig.
If you don't want to be stealthy, I'd go up to chain

[elcidcannon]

If you want to be stealthy, I recommend brig.
If you don't want to be stealthy, I'd go up to chain

Even if I fully train up to chain?


So, to be viable (not looking for maximum efficiency....just efficiency) as a sword and board, I'd need to train in dodge as well as shield use?

Or, would I be better off with no shield, training up dodge and keeping my left hand open?

[Whirlin]

Even if I fully train up to chain?
If you're going to train up to chain, wear chain. My point is don't bother fully training up to chain if you're planning a stealth build. While I have not been able to substantiate it (Jeril or Mark, looking to you two for this one), there's a common belief that heavier armors carry heavier stealth penalties. So if you want to hide, keep it lighter.



So, to be viable (not looking for maximum efficiency....just efficiency) as a sword and board, I'd need to train in dodge as well as shield use?

A polearm sorc is viable, and there's a spell aiming warrior in his 50s. You either want to be optimized, or you want to ignore maths and play the way you want to play.



Or, would I be better off with no shield, training up dodge and keeping my left hand open?
Depends on if you're MTP or PTP starved in your current build. If you're PTP starved, dedicating 15/0 towards 2x shield use each level and actually spending 0/30... That is bad and you should feel bad. A 2nd rank of spell research yields +.5 DS from 613, and +1 Dodge rank from 618 for 0/34, which is much more DS in offensive than 2 ranks of shield use. Assuming you're not already at level with ranger base.


If you're MTP starved, Shield use makes a little more sense, but lets use the above maths a little more:
1 rank of shield use generates .283 DS in offensive with a buckler at 5/0 and then 10/0. 2 ranks of shield would generate .566 DS in offensive for 15/0, at benefit of .037 DS/PTP
1 rank of Dodge generates .705 DS in offensive without a buckler at 7/5. If you were MTP starved, this would be 17/0, to yield a benefit of .0415 DS/PTP
So... more DS/PTP for Dodge.

Ohh... but shields give +20 base DS! So... if we check the above maths on a per TP basis, we learn that the .037x + 20 = .415x when x=481. So once you've spent 481 PTP on Shield Use / Dodge, dodge will be better going forward. At spending 16 (I'll average them) per level on one or the other, this'll end up being around level 31 when Dodge > Shield use.

However, that would also be ignoring the degenerative nature of shields against the benefits of mobility... so lets just say after 20, because I'm tired of mathing.

[Whirlin]

If you're going to train up to chain, wear chain. My point is don't bother fully training up to chain if you're planning a stealth build. While I have not been able to substantiate it (Jeril or Mark, looking to you two for this one), there's a common belief that heavier armors carry heavier stealth penalties. So if you want to hide, keep it lighter.

Talked to Jeril. Heavier armor influences Vanish CMAN and Armored Stealth (Rogue armor specialization). Limited impact on rangers.

If anyone else has any evidence, I'll revoke that statement and say unproven for rangers.

[elcidcannon]

Talked to Jeril. Heavier armor influences Vanish CMAN and Armored Stealth (Rogue armor specialization). Limited impact on rangers.

If anyone else has any evidence, I'll revoke that statement and say unproven for rangers.

Cool. Thanks so much for the legwork!

[droit]

I don't have any data about it, by I noticed very little difference hiding in brig vs chain. Didn't bother me at all.

[elcidcannon]

I'm currently away from Simu access and didn't have my skills on me. I had a friend log in and check. So here's where I am:


(at level 25), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 111 27
Shield Use.........................| 111 27
Combat Maneuvers...................| 111 27
Edged Weapons......................| 154 54
Ambush.............................| 113 27
Physical Fitness...................| 111 27
Harness Power......................| 122 31
Survival...........................| 111 27
Stalking and Hiding................| 154 54
Perception.........................| 154 54
Climbing...........................| 66 14
Swimming...........................| 62 13
First Aid..........................| 111 27
Trading............................| 10 2

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 7

Spell Lists
Ranger.............................| 20
Training Points: 49 Phy 0 Mnt (70 Phy converted to Mnt)
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

From what I've learned recently, I can tell I'm fat on HP ranks. Not sure why the trading ranks are there. I've still got a fixskills, but if there are minor tweaks I might wait for the skill migration.

To summarize, I'm rp'ing a very outdoorsy trapper/survivalist look. Thoughts?

[elcidcannon]

I'm also highly considering a fixstat because I didn't do very much research at all before rolling him.

[Whirlin]

I'm also highly considering a fixstat because I didn't do very much research at all before rolling him.
We're relatively close to our annual fixskills. But nothing that I see there is unfixable. You're still low enough level to just make some minor tweaks going forward, and roll with it. Like you said, it's working, you're just a little rough around the edges.

Stats I wouldn't worry about until cap. Even if you set your stats poorly, the results are typically excess TP and easier short term leveling.

[elcidcannon]

Stats I wouldn't worry about until cap. Even if you set your stats poorly, the results are typically excess TP and easier short term leveling.

I got a PM with just about the same advice. I'm happy to take it, I wasn't very excited about buying one lol

[elcidcannon]

So, what is the benefit to wearing augmented chain vice a hauberk? It seems like most chain armor that sells is augmented.

[elcidcannon]

Follow on question, what if I were to just hold a shield for the Base DS/Enchant bonus, train in 0x shield and 1x dodge?

[Thondalar]

So, what is the benefit to wearing augmented chain vice double chain? It seems like most chain armor that sells is augmented.

That's because bards use it and bards are popular. Armor is a tricky subject..you should always consider base hindrance, spell hindrance, and any cmans or other abilities you use that might receive a penalty or bonus from different armor types. Balance these considerations with the protection desired.

[droit]

Aug chain is the last AsG before spell hindrance starts jumping by multiple points.

[Thondalar]

Aug chain is the last AsG before spell hindrance starts jumping by multiple points.

lol, forgot this was a ranger discussion.

In this case, it works the same for bards as rangers, so my previous post still stands.

[elcidcannon]

So, if for now I'm foregoing dodge ranks and training up in shield use, should I not use a buckler and take advantage of the defense of a large/tower shield?

[Jeril]

So, if for now I'm foregoing dodge ranks and training up in shield use, should I not use a buckler and take advantage of the defense of a large/tower shield?

Yes, you'll want to use a tower shield until your dodge ranks are equal to your shield ranks pretty much.