How Made Up is PTSD These Days?

[Latrinsorm]

Taken from the other thread because I think it's an important discussion.
By anyone's estimation, by any measure or reasoning you can come up with, WW1, WW2, Korea, and Vietnam involved more short-range combat than any war or engagement since. More traumatic events for a larger percentage of troops. We deployed more people, so even if you assume the actual combat was exactly the same (which we know it wasn't, but even if), you're still talking about a much larger volume of troops. So why are suicide rates higher now?They're not. (https://www.baycitizen.org/news/veterans/suicide-rates-soar-among-wwii-vets/) The suicide rate of US WW1 vets in the first decade after the war was 5 per 10,000 (http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/NeuropsychiatryinWWIIVolI/chapter1.htm). The suicide rate of Iraq/Afghanistan vets is currently 3 per 10,000 (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-veteran-suicide-20150115-story.html). This is the part where you object to my data without ever producing your own.
Everyone has shit happen in their lives. What is the difference between people who accept it and move on, and people who let it control them?Chemistry. You can't will your blood to have less cholesterol, you can't will your brain to have more serotonin.

[Soulance]

The hard part is there are SO many factors that contribute to these sorts of things. Genetic disposition, Society, Family Life (FOO-Factor (family-of-origin)), the combination of two or all of those things. The hard part is to not lump everyone in the same category and believe that there is any one answer to it all. Yes, you could say some of it is "made up" in your eyes, but to the person going through it, it is "real" to them. Something that doesn't bother you in the slightest bothers me beyond belief - yet the circumstance could be completely identical. Each of us has a "Gator-brain" response initially. Fight or flight. Over time and training (FOO Factor, Society, Experiences) we learn cognitive ways to deal with things, good or bad. The good news is that the brain has Neuroplastisity - you can learn to do things differently. Everyone has it, they just need to find the WAY to do it.

But, again, we're back to the beginning. Each person has struggles getting there and the ways they deal with life itself can be roadblocks getting to healing. The possibility is that there is never a 'cure', but you can learn to not let it control you. Many times people think solitude is the answer when, in fact, that tends to be a major factor that ends up killing us.

Maybe I've gotten off track and didn't understand what it was we're discussing here. It's just that Psychology has always interested me and I've studied it and people quite a bit over the years. Mostly as to what I mentioned before to help myself - Like, why is it that something has no effect on you bother the crap outta me?

[mgoddess]

The hard part is there are SO many factors that contribute to these sorts of things. Genetic disposition, Society, Family Life (FOO-Factor (family-of-origin)), the combination of two or all of those things. The hard part is to not lump everyone in the same category and believe that there is any one answer to it all. Yes, you could say some of it is "made up" in your eyes, but to the person going through it, it is "real" to them. Something that doesn't bother you in the slightest bothers me beyond belief - yet the circumstance could be completely identical. Each of us has a "Gator-brain" response initially. Fight or flight. Over time and training (FOO Factor, Society, Experiences) we learn cognitive ways to deal with things, good or bad. The good news is that the brain has Neuroplasticity - you can learn to do things differently. Everyone has it, they just need to find the WAY to do it.

But, again, we're back to the beginning. Each person has struggles getting there and the ways they deal with life itself can be roadblocks getting to healing. The possibility is that there is never a 'cure', but you can learn to not let it control you. Many times people think solitude is the answer when, in fact, that tends to be a major factor that ends up killing us.

As someone who has PTSD, family-related, I can definitely say, without a doubt (but, not professionally), that this is all true. It took me roughly 20 years to retrain my brain into good cognitive ways to deal with the PTSD... unfortunately, I had to find those ways on my own, as every therapist-counselor-type-person I ever saw didn't have the right sort of attitude+training to help me where I needed it.

[Tgo01]

Taken from the other thread because I think it's an important discussion.They're not. (https://www.baycitizen.org/news/veterans/suicide-rates-soar-among-wwii-vets/) The suicide rate of US WW1 vets in the first decade after the war was 5 per 10,000 (http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/NeuropsychiatryinWWIIVolI/chapter1.htm). The suicide rate of Iraq/Afghanistan vets is currently 3 per 10,000 (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-veteran-suicide-20150115-story.html). This is the part where you object to my data without ever producing your own.Chemistry. You can't will your blood to have less cholesterol, you can't will your brain to have more serotonin.

But treatment was rare or non-existent 80 years ago. How do you explain that?

[Latrinsorm]

The hard part is there are SO many factors that contribute to these sorts of things. Genetic disposition, Society, Family Life (FOO-Factor (family-of-origin)), the combination of two or all of those things. The hard part is to not lump everyone in the same category and believe that there is any one answer to it all. Yes, you could say some of it is "made up" in your eyes, but to the person going through it, it is "real" to them. Something that doesn't bother you in the slightest bothers me beyond belief - yet the circumstance could be completely identical. Each of us has a "Gator-brain" response initially. Fight or flight. Over time and training (FOO Factor, Society, Experiences) we learn cognitive ways to deal with things, good or bad. The good news is that the brain has Neuroplasticity - you can learn to do things differently. Everyone has it, they just need to find the WAY to do it.

But, again, we're back to the beginning. Each person has struggles getting there and the ways they deal with life itself can be roadblocks getting to healing. The possibility is that there is never a 'cure', but you can learn to not let it control you. Many times people think solitude is the answer when, in fact, that tends to be a major factor that ends up killing us.

Maybe I've gotten off track and didn't understand what it was we're discussing here. It's just that Psychology has always interested me and I've studied it and people quite a bit over the years. Mostly as to what I mentioned before to help myself - Like, why is it that something has no effect on you bother the crap outta me?It's all relevant! All of that understanding is new, and explains the difference in the suicide rates for these two specific military cohorts.
But treatment was rare or non-existent 80 years ago. How do you explain that?Lack of universal surveillance. Or lack of Kina Grannis? Something.

[Soulance]

As someone who has PTSD, family-related, I can definitely say, without a doubt (but, not professionally), that this is all true. It took me roughly 20 years to retrain my brain into good cognitive ways to deal with the PTSD... unfortunately, I had to find those ways on my own, as every therapist-counselor-type-person I ever saw didn't have the right sort of attitude+training to help me where I needed it.
It does seem hard to find the right "fit" with someone who you can feel like understands what you're dealing with. That is why, from what I can see, it's nice to go through it with others who have been in your similar situation. Still, like you said, You have to find YOUR OWN specific way that helps because what may help someone else might only just touch the surface for you. Or not even help much at all.

I'm encouraged to see that you have worked hard on it and are managing it well. Also, I can imagine that even though the ones you saw weren't the perfect fit, I would imagine each of them might have had a little something that assisted you on your path so hopefully it wasn't all rough. And, most of the time, the people who are trying to help are doing so because they've had similar experiences in some form or another.

[Soulance]

But treatment was rare or non-existent 80 years ago. How do you explain that?
I would say it might break down to the fact that people like Jung and Freud weren't really looked at favorably and any form of "psycho-therapy" had a bad moniker. It might be more accepted today to go see one. Research is much more valid and with the internet and being able to share world-wide, data is far more available and vast. The only issue is that it is human controlled and that data can include lies and data corruption. Still, psycho-therapy and research have made vast improvements in a short amount of time. I mean, we can visually map the brain during "live" content to see what reacts where and when instantaneously.

Also, in just the recent years, therapy has been more focused on being happy where in the past it was focused on more of being "why are you sad" or mental. I mean, people used to bleed you to get rid of infections and whatnot. They did terrible things in the past in the name of "science" and cures.

[Latrinsorm]

To whomever left the rep, would you care to expound? Use your words :heart:

[Ardwen]

IN some part its due to our society, just look how many children are diagnosed as ADD or ADHD in america we don't fix problems the drug companies invent new drugs to sell us to alleviate the issue.

[Soulance]

IN some part its due to our society, just look how many children are diagnosed as ADD or ADHD in america we don't fix problems the drug companies invent new drugs to sell us to alleviate the issue.
And that is yet another discussion probably. The drugs can be quite useful as they can also be harmful. Again, it's pretty much a case-by-case deal there. Some people require constant prescrip drugs just to bring them close to the "normal" range because their genetic/chemical makeup is missing key components to produce the items the body and brain need.

Of course, what is normal? Heh. Anyway... In my opinion, most drugs are a temporary means for someone to get to a place where they are more capable to work on the problem. If anyone has ever been to the point where they are so overwhelmed they can't think straight you might understand. Drugs can help things get back into order enough so that a person can learn tricks to handle their own personal level of ADHD/ADD/Depression/whatever.

But there is definitely always that abuse/mistreatment. And I'm sure most all of us could be diagnosed with ADD or ADHD in some form. For me, it's call boredom or disinterest. My father-in-law can't sit still or else he'll go crazy (so to speak.)

[Latrinsorm]

IN some part its due to our society, just look how many children are diagnosed as ADD or ADHD in america we don't fix problems the drug companies invent new drugs to sell us to alleviate the issue.This is a common belief, but how do you reconcile it with the fact that suicides after WW1 were higher than they are now?

[Astray]

My father had PTSD that caused him to sleep walk. I was up late one night and I went to the kitchen to grab something and he was standing in the hallway at attention. When I flipped the light on and called to him he snapped out of it and looked around real confused. He also used to just stand at attention by the doors.

I've also been by a few guys who just couldn't handle sitting still or having quiet going on around them.

[Soulance]

This is a common belief, but how do you reconcile it with the fact that suicides after WW1 were higher than they are now?
Not sure if it is relative to it or not, just tossing out something I heard awhile back... Men who came back from war often couldn't find a place in society. People were gung-ho for them (and some weren't) fighting for us, but when they came back, all of the jobs were taken by those who stayed. An economical depression also hit among other things. People with "no purpose" tend to hit depression pretty hard. Couple that with what those men and women go through fighting and killing other people, sounds to me like a lot of things that could lead to suicide. Also, people would look at soldiers like they had third-eyes a lot of times and would tend to avoid them figuring they had done and seen too many things when they were away at war. With reports coming out about things that Vets did that had PTSD probably added to that public fear.

Today there is more funding and more resources available to those today. When the military returns from deployment, they put them through a mandatory PTSD counseling period. Sure, it isn't foolproof, but they probably catch a few more during that time then when they used to come home before and were left to themselves to figure things out.

[Thondalar]

How many here have never had a traumatic event in their life? We generally link PTSD to war and veterans, but the same brain functions are in play with victims of violent crimes. While we're at it, what about first responders? Crime scene investigators? Doctors at children's hospitals?

[Ardwen]

There is also far better record keeping now, which could very well account for some of it, not to mention lots more doctors lawyers etc etc to do studies and sue people over it all

[Tgo01]

How many here have never had a traumatic event in their life? We generally link PTSD to war and veterans, but the same brain functions are in play with victims of violent crimes. While we're at it, what about first responders? Crime scene investigators? Doctors at children's hospitals?

It's comments like this that made people in the other thread think you were saying PTSD wasn't real or that vets should "suck it up", because honestly, what are you getting at? :/

[Astray]

People with "no purpose" tend to hit depression pretty hard.

This is absolutely true. Speaking from experience, after coming back to the U.S, I was already feeling pretty shitty due to a prior situation. After being unable to find a job for a couple months, I lost my drive and life just felt like a series of trials. I was never in the military, mind you, so I can't say that the experience or feeling was the same.

[Soulance]

How many here have never had a traumatic event in their life? We generally link PTSD to war and veterans, but the same brain functions are in play with victims of violent crimes. While we're at it, what about first responders? Crime scene investigators? Doctors at children's hospitals?
I heard one of the highest suicide rates recently has been with Dentists...

[Latrinsorm]

How many here have never had a traumatic event in their life? We generally link PTSD to war and veterans, but the same brain functions are in play with victims of violent crimes. While we're at it, what about first responders? Crime scene investigators? Doctors at children's hospitals?Since you ask, both victims of violent crimes (https://mainweb-v.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/mentalimpact.shtml) and first responders (http://www.emsworld.com/article/12009260/suicide-stress-and-ptsd-among-emergency-personnel) see a huge increase in risk of suicide. I couldn't find any stats on the other two, but doctors in general (http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/01/06/top-11-professions-with-highest-suicide-rates/) also suffer disproportionate risk.
There is also far better record keeping now, which could very well account for some of it, not to mention lots more doctors lawyers etc etc to do studies and sue people over it allI guess I just don't understand this reticence to admit that modern medical science might be on to something when it comes to mental health, this need to reach a more nefarious conclusion.

[Thondalar]

They're not. (https://www.baycitizen.org/news/veterans/suicide-rates-soar-among-wwii-vets/) The suicide rate of US WW1 vets in the first decade after the war was 5 per 10,000 (http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/NeuropsychiatryinWWIIVolI/chapter1.htm). The suicide rate of Iraq/Afghanistan vets is currently 3 per 10,000 (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-veteran-suicide-20150115-story.html).

Your first link is about WW2 vets NOW, in their 80's...the second link doesn't say anything about a specific suicide rate, and the third link is a newspaper article about the study, not the study itself.


This is the part where you object to my data without ever producing your own.

Well, quit giving me incomplete and/or outdated and/or irrelevant and/or non-existent data and I won't have anything to object to.

edit: I just realized, I didn't post any data of my own! Here you go, Latrin. Wait...what? (https://msrc.fsu.edu/news/msrcs-david-rudd-consulted-why-modern-soldiers-are-more-susceptible-suicide)


Chemistry. You can't will your blood to have less cholesterol, you can't will your brain to have more serotonin.

Well, there you have it, folks. Latrin just exposed the fraud that is psychology. It's all just chemistry.

[Thondalar]

Since you ask, both victims of violent crimes (https://mainweb-v.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/mentalimpact.shtml) and first responders (http://www.emsworld.com/article/12009260/suicide-stress-and-ptsd-among-emergency-personnel) see a huge increase in risk of suicide. I couldn't find any stats on the other two, but doctors in general (http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/01/06/top-11-professions-with-highest-suicide-rates/) also suffer disproportionate risk.

Now use your brain and think about why I would ask about such things.

[Atlanteax]

Part of the 'misconception' vs WW I/II is that we presently have the 'benefit' of a 24hr/7d/week media.

[Celephais]

This thread is boners!
.

[Latrinsorm]

Your first link is about WW2 vets NOW, in their 80's...the second link doesn't say anything about a specific suicide rate, and the third link is a newspaper article about the study, not the study itself.The second link says, and I quote: "1. Suicide was the leading cause of death in military personnel in this decade (over 0.5 per 1,000 strength per annum)." 0.5 per 1000 = 5 per 10,000. As for the study itself, my source included the journal, year, and author of publication, but let me google that for you anyway: here you go (http://www.annalsofepidemiology.org/article/S1047-2797%2814%2900525-0/abstract). You're looking for Table 2.
Well, quit giving me incomplete and/or outdated and/or irrelevant and/or non-existent data and I won't have anything to object to. edit: I just realized, I didn't post any data of my own! Here you go, Latrin. Wait...what? (https://msrc.fsu.edu/news/msrcs-david-rudd-consulted-why-modern-soldiers-are-more-susceptible-suicide)As it turns out, nope (http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=1994-29716-001). PTSD has occurred in every war, disproportionate risk of suicide has followed. If you'd like to cite a journal, year, and author for your source I'll be happy to read it. :)
Well, there you have it, folks. Latrin just exposed the fraud that is psychology. It's all just chemistry.Every science is just a specialization of physics. That doesn't make any of them a "fraud".
Now use your brain and think about why I would ask about such things.Because you are somehow convinced it buttresses your argument when it does precisely the opposite? :D

[Latrinsorm]

Then it's settled!

PTSD - not made up.
Current mental health efforts - a good start, but a ways to go.