Comment about Mary Cheney

[TheRoseLady]

The news is afire with the "controversy" over Kerry bringing up Mary Cheney in the third debate.

I've been listening to the press on both sides and have been thinking on it. What do you think?

On one hand I think that if Cheney (Sr) thought it was okay to bring up his daughter while out on the stump and that he thanked Edwards for saying nice words about Mary in the VP Debate that including her again shouldn't necessarily be an issue...

On the other hand, I don't think she should be the poster child for homosexuality.

I am kind of marveling at the genius of it tho, here we have the Repubs running about crying over the Mary comment, bringing even more attention to the conservative christian right that Cheney has a gay daughter. Oh my! What if he becomes President? :lol:

What do you all think?

[Cayge]

If Cheney indeed cast the first stone in this latest round of forum, then its fair game to comment. Kerry was speaking pure fact when he referred to her, and I know thats a problem for his admin. so, no surprise he "lashes out".

[DeV]

If she wanted to be put on a pedestal she would have stepped onto one herself. I'm sure her father is not thrilled about this recent turn of events but he is a public figure and has to know his personal life will be looked at and scrutinized to some degree. You have to wonder how comfortable he and his wife are regarding her sexuality.

[CrystalTears]

Kerry had the right and good intetions to mention her, but I think it was a bit too much to use an opponent's family member to make a point. I just think it was an unnecessary tactic and I would have been upset if Bush made the same kind of comment about one of Kerry's children.

[Tsa`ah]

Bush, Cheney, and the campaign camp have definetely made comments about the Edwards/Kerry children being on the trail. In fact Bush had some rather negative comments about it and pointed to him not using his children in 2000.

Any informed person will realize the Bush children weren't used in 2k because they were being drunken sluts.

[Hulkein]

I don't think that was the question, Tsa`ah. But anyway, what comments have they made about Kerry's daughters? I doubt it was anywhere near the same thing.

I think the way he paused and the way he said lesbian showed his intentions. To me it was a calculated, underhanded attack. Not that it would change my vote if I was a Kerry supporter, but who knows with undecideds.

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by Hulkein]

[Warriorbird]

More power to Kerry. Politics, Republican style. Maybe he'll actually grow some balls.

[Tsa`ah]

The overall comment was about bringing up family members. Neither is innocent and to make a big deal about Kerry mentioning Mary Cheney is a bit absurd this late in the game.

[Hulkein]

Ok.. But what did Bush say about Kerry's kids? I haven't heard anything about it.

[Latrinsorm]

I think we should all defer to Jon Stewart's judgment on this matter.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
I think we should all defer to Jon Stewart's judgment on this matter.

That he has stated that he's going to vote for Kerry? Well for the first time in these political threads, I agree with you Latrinsorm.

[Enoxo]

Cheney mentioned his daughter... his daughter... when there was a direction question regarding her while out on stump. Even if there was no question, it is his daughter. He can talk about her if he wants.

Edwards brought it up at the VP debate, and yes... Cheney did thank him for his kind remarks, but afterwards Cheney made it under no certain terms that it was inappropriate.

And then Kerry brought it up - out of the left field - during the last debate. It had no baring on his answer to the question. It was as if Kerry didn't know any other gay/lesbian to comment on, if he wanted to.

It was a cheap shot at Bush and had no place in the debate. I have gay and lesbian friends who were voting for Kerry, but because of the incident, they've changed their vote to Bush.

[Warriorbird]

Republicans got the White House through cheap shots. It's funny to hear them complain when the shoe is on the other foot.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Enoxo
I have gay and lesbian friends who were voting for Kerry, but because of the incident, they've changed their vote to Bush. I have gay and lesbian friends as well and they are voting on the issues, not one comment. Odd.

[Chadj]

<<I have gay and lesbian friends who were voting for Kerry, but because of the incident, they've changed their vote to Bush. >>

Your gay and lesbian friends are fucking retarded then.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Chadj
<<I have gay and lesbian friends who were voting for Kerry, but because of the incident, they've changed their vote to Bush. >>

Your gay and lesbian friends are fucking retarded then.

Exactly what I was thinking. That's like picking a candidate because they have better hair.

[Ravenstorm]

From all the fuss, you'd think Kerry outed her. Mary Cheney was the poster child for gay Republicans back in 2000. Any time they wanted to present a 'compassionate conservative' front, they'd trot out Mary like a prize pony. Only after they abandoned their loyal supporters in favor of the religious right did they decide Mary needs to be 'disappeared'. She didn't even join her family on stage at the RNC Convention along with both Bush daughters and her sister. "We support Mary" they insist and then tell her to get lost.

Mary used her sexuality to get votes for Bush and Cheney. She's been open about it for years and years. If they're now ashamed of her, it's their problem. Kerry didn't insult her or out her and didn't bring her out of left field. It was a perfectly logical mention in regards to the question asked.

And that pause? How many times did he pause on every other question? Lots. The outrage of the Cheneys was about the possibility of lost votes and nothing more. Talk about family values.

Raven

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by Chadj
<<I have gay and lesbian friends who were voting for Kerry, but because of the incident, they've changed their vote to Bush. >>

Your gay and lesbian friends are fucking retarded then.

Exactly what I was thinking. That's like picking a candidate because they have better hair.

Not at all if the person believes the comment is a good indicator of the persons personality and character.

[Chyrain]

I think it's out of line to bring up anyone's child in a debate for a political point without their expressed permission. ESPECIALLY when said parent isn't there to either defend and or respond to such a statement.

had Bush brought up Edwards kids, the answer would be the same.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Hulkein
Not at all if the person believes the comment is a good indicator of the persons personality and character.

If most people were like that, Bush would have almost no votes.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
That he has stated that he's going to vote for Kerry? Well for the first time in these political threads, I agree with you Latrinsorm. "this matter" = "Comment about Mary Cheney"

Jon naturally did a review of the Vice Presidential debate, and when the Edwards comment was brought up, it cut to Jon saying, "Yes, tell us about your.. GAAAAY... DAUGHTER!!!" with an echo filter on. It was quite amusing.

I wasn't aware that Jon had said who he was voting for. I know who Colbert and Corddry are voting for (they're not exactly subtle), but I didn't think Jon had said.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold

Originally posted by Enoxo
I have gay and lesbian friends who were voting for Kerry, but because of the incident, they've changed their vote to Bush. I have gay and lesbian friends as well and they are voting on the issues, not one comment. Odd.

Here, here! I find it almost hard to imagine that those who care about the issues that affect gays would change their mind over a comment that has been blown out of proportion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Mary a gay rights activist and worked for Coors as a gay community liasion but now works as a high official in the Bush/Cheney organization? She's obviously a very visible person.

I'm curious to know what the majority of the gay community think about her and the comment as well.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by Chadj
<<I have gay and lesbian friends who were voting for Kerry, but because of the incident, they've changed their vote to Bush. >>

Your gay and lesbian friends are fucking retarded then.

Exactly what I was thinking. That's like picking a candidate because they have better hair.

Not at all if the person believes the comment is a good indicator of the persons personality and character. Ummm... it's quite ignorant actually. I believe that guy is lying in any case.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
I wasn't aware that Jon had said who he was voting for. I know who Colbert and Corddry are voting for (they're not exactly subtle), but I didn't think Jon had said.

Yeah, I read it last night somewhere but just googled this up for everyone's reading pleasure.

Talk-show host Jon Stewart to vote for Kerry (http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7BEBAD594E-9354-488A-A4E8-AB21CABB1F44%7D&siteid=google&dist=google)

[Wezas]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Mary a gay rights activist and worked for Coors as a gay community liasion but now works as a high official in the Bush/Cheney organization?

Alots been coming out about Coors Brewing lately. Especially with Peter Coors running for republican senate.

My favorite story:

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/aug/04081006.html

::damn random quote tags::

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by Wezas]

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by Enoxo
It was a cheap shot at Bush and had no place in the debate. I have gay and lesbian friends who were voting for Kerry, but because of the incident, they've changed their vote to Bush. Then they're stupid as pigshit.

What did Kerry say? Lemme quote here:

"We're all God's children. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was. She's being who she was born as. I think if you talk to anybody, it's not a choice."

Ravenstorm is right -- they trotted her out in 2000 to "prove" that Republicans didn't hate gays (which is bullshit, because the Christian right that's their foundation would burn every 'queer' in America in a second) and then stuck her in a closet for 4 years.

So why is this a cheap shot? Why are the Repubs trying to bury this? Something they're ashamed of maybe? That they don't want the radical Christians to dwell on that the Veep's daughter is a dyke?

[Enoxo]

Originally posted by Chyrain
I think it's out of line to bring up anyone's child in a debate for a political point without their expressed permission. ESPECIALLY when said parent isn't there to either defend and or respond to such a statement.

had Bush brought up Edwards kids, the answer would be the same.

This is precisely the point. You don't use other people's kids to make a political statement. If Bush mentioned Edwards kids in the debate, people would be up in arms.


Kerry didn't insult her or out her and didn't bring her out of left field. It was a perfectly logical mention in regards to the question asked.

How was it a perfectly logical mention? He mentioned her in the second sentence of his statement.

Then in the third sentence he says, "I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice."

Why was there a need to bring her up at all if he was going to open the broad 'anybody'? Because he wanted to take a gab at Bush/Cheney and use Mary as a political ploy.

Certainly she's not the only lesbian he knows. Hell, he could have mentioned the Governor in New Jersey, but it wouldn't have been a big enough gab.


I believe that guy is lying in any case.

Believe all you want. I have three gay/lesbian friends and they've all switched their votes, because it is a matter of character and integrity - as Kerry's mother says. You don't use other people's children as a ploy.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
Ummm... it's quite ignorant actually. I believe that guy is lying in any case.

You telling others how to vote is ignorant.

If the person sees it as a flaw in the persons character they have every right to switch their vote.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Enoxo
This is precisely the point. You don't use other people's kids to make a political statement. If Bush mentioned Edwards kids in the debate, people would be up in arms.


She is not a child or a kid. She is a grown 34 year old woman who is a highly visible person employed by the Bush/Cheney campaign.

[Enoxo]

Even the Log Cabin Republicans said Kerry's statement was gratuitous and wrong, and they're not even backing Bush this year.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Enoxo
How was it a perfectly logical mention? He mentioned her in the second sentence of his statement.

Because she is a political figure: one they were willing to trot out when they wanted to prove how much they're in favor of equal rights. She's public about her sexuality. She's an activist and she's one of her father's campaign managers.

The Bush administration was more than willing to use her for their ends when it suited them and it was perfectly logical for Kerry to mention her given the question asked. If they're now ashamed or embarassed about her... Well, I've always felt pity for Mary to have her own family treat her like that for political expediency.

Raven

[xtc]

Jon Stewart is another liberal lacky media pin head. If Kerry is campaigning on his character, as he has been, he shouldn't have taken a cheap shot. Kerry panders for votes and couldn't give a shit about gay & lesbians.

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by xtc]

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by xtc]

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Enoxo
Even the Log Cabin Republicans said Kerry's statement was gratuitous and wrong, and they're not even backing Bush this year.

Lets see exactly what the LCR said...


Senator Kerry could have made his point about gay and lesbian Americans without mentioning the Vice-President's daughter.

However, this shouldn't distract us from the fact that President Bush, Karl Rove and other Republicans have been using gay and lesbian families as a political wedge issue in this campaign.

Log Cabin Republicans have a message for both campaigns. For Senator Kerry and Senator Edwards, you do not need to talk about the Vice President's daughter in order to discuss your positions on gay and lesbian issues. For President Bush and Karl Rove, you have a moral obligation to stop using gay and lesbian families as a political wedge issue. Our country and our party deserve better."

Not exactly a damning condemnation of Kerry. That was reserved for Bush.

Raven

[DeV]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
Ummm... it's quite ignorant actually. I believe that guy is lying in any case.

You telling others how to vote is ignorant.

If the person sees it as a flaw in the persons character they have every right to switch their vote. Yes, if I told them how to vote that would be quite ignorant. Since I didn't your statement is pointless.

[Enoxo]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by Enoxo
How was it a perfectly logical mention? He mentioned her in the second sentence of his statement.

Because she is a political figure: one they were willing to trot out when they wanted to prove how much they're in favor of equal rights. She's public about her sexuality. She's an activist and she's one of her father's campaign managers.

The Bush administration was more than willing to use her for their ends when it suited them and it was perfectly logical for Kerry to mention her given the question asked. If they're now ashamed or embarassed about her... Well, I've always felt pity for Mary to have her own family treat her like that for political expediency.

Raven

All of this doesn't say why it was perfectly logical for him to mention her. It just is coming up with excuse "They used her why can't we use her!"

I'm not excusing Bush or her family for using her if they indeed did so.

My question is... why was it perfectly logical for Kerry to mention her, when he doesn't even know her? Why did he not mention McGrievy from New Jersey? He knows him.

Why did he not mention someone else?

Because he wanted to use Mary as a political jab at Bush/Cheney.

It was horrible and despicable. And just proves Kerry doesn't have balls to stand on his own policies that he has to use other people's children in political attacks.

[Hulkein]

Oh I'm sorry Miss Semantics.

You are ignorant for criticizing someone who disagrees with you on why to vote for someone.

It's not like this is voting for someone because they have a nice tan. It's a legitimate reason, whether or not you will change doesn't mean the other person is 'ignant.'

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by Hulkein]

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Enoxo
And just proves Kerry doesn't have balls to stand on his own policies that he has to use other people's children in political attacks.

Thank you Mr. Republican. Calling Mary Cheney a lesbian is not only NOT a political attack, it's also the truth and public knowledge. If, however, you regard her being a lesbian as some sort of dirty secret that shouldn't be talked about, then it might be considered a political attack. Which says a lot about their reactions.

Raven

[DeV]

Originally posted by Hulkein
Oh I'm sorry Miss Semantics.

You are ignorant for telling me that their reason for choosing who to vote for is ignorant. I refer to your latest discharge of plebeian verbiage, in which, you have proven, once again, that there is no such thing as unutterable nonsense. I made a statement of opinion regarding their reasoning behind their decision to change their vote. Had it been a meaningful and thought provoking stance I wouldn't have considered *it* ignorant. You don't I do. Simple as that.

[Enoxo]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by Enoxo
And just proves Kerry doesn't have balls to stand on his own policies that he has to use other people's children in political attacks.

Thank you Mr. Republican. Calling Mary Cheney a lesbian is not only NOT a political attack, it's also the truth and public knowledge. If, however, you regard her being a lesbian as some sort of dirty secret that shouldn't be talked about, then it might be considered a political attack. Which says a lot about their reactions.

Raven

You've still not answered my question.

And I'm a Libertarian, kthxbye.

[Ravenstorm]

I've already answered it. You just don't agree. Just like I don't agree that calling a gay activist a lesbian is a political attack.

Raven

[Hulkein]

<<I refer to your latest discharge of plebeian verbiage, in which, you have proven, once again, that there is no such thing as unutterable nonsense.>>

OOO U R SMRT. Learn how to use commas correctly.

<<I made a statement of opinion regarding their reasoning behind their decision to change their vote.>>

I know, that's why I called you ignorant.

Basically you tried to use big words (but failed terribly with the tough task of placing commas correctly) telling me what I said was non-sense, yet you acknowledged my point.

You called someones reasons for voting ignorant, I called you ignorant for doing so. WHAT NON-SENSE!!!11

[DeV]

Is that a conclusion or simply the place where you got tired of thinking?

[Hulkein]

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.
- Socrates

[DeV]

OOO U R SMRT. Learn how to use commas correctly.
Teach me, :drool:, I'm obviously we todded.




Basically you tried to use big words (but failed terribly with the tough task of placing commas correctly) telling me what I said was non-sense, yet you acknowledged my point.
If I failed so terribly you could have at least had the decency to correct my errors. And while your at it, point out where I acknowledged your point, or whatever it was you were trying to make.



You called someones reasons for voting ignorant, I called you ignorant for doing so. WHAT NON-SENSE!!!11
Calling someones reasons ignorant as opposed to calling them ignorant. You are obviously suffering from Clue Deficit Disorder.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Hulkein
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.
- Socrates Exactly. Which is why you called me ignorant. :)

[Warriorbird]

Damn, Hulkein. Poor Republicans.

[CrystalTears]

Good lord, who cares why someone changed their vote? That's their right and reason, and if they don't want to vote for someone because they have blue eyes and greasy hair, that's their perogative. C'mon people, are we running out of juicy stuff to argue about that we gotta resort to someone's choice in president? :D

[Chelle]

Fine talk about gays, Kerry. There was no reason to target or out someone's daughter. He could have survived the whole issue without throwing Cheney's daugher in there. I wasn't offended by it. I just fail to see the reason to bring her up at all.

[Hulkein]

<<Teach me, , I'm obviously we todded.>>

No, I think you're smart.

<<If I failed so terribly you could have at least had the decency to correct my errors.>>

Ya only needed a comma after the words proven and again and the sentence would've been fine. You had too many of them.

<<And while your at it, point out where I acknowledged your point, or whatever it was you were trying to make.>>

'Had it been a meaningful and thought provoking stance I wouldn't have considered *it* ignorant. You don't I do. Simple as that.'

You knew how I felt. So unless you read my mind, you picked up on that sentiment through my posts.

<<Exactly. Which is why you called me ignorant.>>

If I was more experience with getting away with indirectly insulting someone I would've simply said 'your opinion is ignorant.' In my eyes it's one in the same when arguing over a specific point.

[Chadj]

If I may point out some holes in your argument..


This is precisely the point. You don't use other people's kids to make a political statement. If Bush mentioned Edwards kids in the debate, people would be up in arms.

Mary Cheney is a political person, with a semi-public life. Thus, I would say Kerry could talk about her if he wants to make a point. If she was trying to lay low, keep out of the whole thing, then I would understand how Kerry stepped over a line. However, to my knowledge, she holds a high office with the Republican Party (or perhaps did at one point) and so she is fair game.


How was it a perfectly logical mention? He mentioned her in the second sentence of his statement.
Then in the third sentence he says, "I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice."

Why was there a need to bring her up at all if he was going to open the broad 'anybody'? Because he wanted to take a gab at Bush/Cheney and use Mary as a political ploy.

Certainly she's not the only lesbian he knows. Hell, he could have mentioned the Governor in New Jersey, but it wouldn't have been a big enough gab.

I think what you meant by this, is "durr". He most likely brought up Mary Cheney to give a well known, specific example of a homosexual female. The fact that he brought up a specific example, and then made a general rule about it, is an inductive argument, which he used to make his argument more persuasive. I know Mary Cheney. I've never heard of the Governor in New Jersey.


Believe all you want. I have three gay/lesbian friends and they've all switched their votes, because it is a matter of character and integrity - as Kerry's mother says. You don't use other people's children as a ploy.

I would like to restate an earlier post by me: Then your gay/lesbian friends are retarded.

I'm sorry, but IMHO, one should look at the majority of facts before switching a vote. Ok, PERHAPS it's a matter of character and integrity... so, wouldn't Bush freaking out and getting angry in the second debate be a matter of character and integrity? Anyone who changes their vote because of a single comment should probably not be living, because that's stupid. As earlier stated in this post, she has some of a public life, and JUST because she is Cheney's daughter, does not make any mention of her to be off limits.

I think Kerry should have said "Mary Cheney" instead of "Cheney's daughter", but oh well. I think we get the point.


PS: Tell your retarded homosexual friends that they are stupid and they might want to consider not being dumb.

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by Chadj]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
Calling Mary Cheney a lesbian is not only NOT a political attack, it's also the truth and public knowledge.And yet, the only lesbian specifically mentioned by name by both Senator Kerry and Senator Edwards was?

Then again, maybe I'm too paranoid.
Originally posted by xtc
Jon Stewart is another liberal lacky media pin head.I knew you were from Canada, but jeez. That sounds like a Yukon comment.

[Chadj]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold

Originally posted by Hulkein
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.
- Socrates Exactly. Which is why you called me ignorant. :)

Sorry, Hulkein, I like you and all, but you totally just got pwned.

[Hulkein]

Yeah, it was my mistake.

I said 'you are ignorant for saying blah blah.'

If I was well versed at indirectly insulting someone I would've copped out and said 'your opinion is ignorant for saying blah blah.'

Gotta love the semantics of a forum debate!

[DeV]

No, I think you're smart.
Very, thank you.



Ya only needed a comma after the words proven and again and the sentence would've been fine. You had too many of them.
Was the meaning lost on you at all? I add commas where I feel necessary simply for effect. I see it worked.



You knew how I felt. So unless you read my mind, you picked up on that sentiment through my posts.
I knew how you felt, yes. However, nowhere in my statement did I feel the need to attack you personally. My comments were directed at his friends *reasons*. Not at their person.



If I was more experience with getting away with indirectly insulting someone I would've simply said 'your opinion is ignorant.' In my eyes it's one in the same when arguing over a specific point.
Hulkein, saying you felt my opinion is ignorant is much better than saying you felt me to be ignorant. Believe me, my need to respond was not one out of feeling insulted in the least. I was trying to guage exactly where you were coming from with it. Attack my opinions all day and night, attack me, and it's on.
It's a lot easier to form an opinion when you have more than just a few of the facts which is what we are both basing this on.

Let me know when you'd like to end this.

Arrrg!

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by DarkelfVold]

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Chelle
There was no reason to target or out someone's daughter.

Let's say this again...

It is impossible to out someone who is already out. She is an activist. She and her father put herself out there since the 2000 election. She publically campaigned for him to get the gay vote.

Nor was she 'targetted'. Calling her a lesbian is not a weapon where she was the target. It is a fact. It is a known fact. It is a fact that was used to the benefit of the Bush administration to get elected in 2000. She was not insulted and she was not ridiculed.

Raven

[Hulkein]

It was my mistake, I don't think you are ignorant, I just didn't think out the sentence I typed.

No hard feelings.

[Wezas]

heh

Fuzzy Math (http://www.flashplayer.com/music/fuzzymath.html)

(don't think it's been posted before)

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by xtc
Jon Stewart is another liberal lacky media pin head.


He hosts a comedy show on Comedy Central which follows a show about puppets that makes crank calls.

That's the liberal media for you.

You commented that Kerry will do nothing for gays, I would be curious to hear from gays about their views of each presidential candidate. W hasn't done anything that I can think of that has helped the gays.

[Warriorbird]

The self-hating gays can vote for Bush. Kind've like the self-hating other minorities.

[Ravenstorm]

I just have to add one more thing about the Cheney's hypocrisy and why their reaction is 100% political...

Alan Keyes is the RNC's handpicked candidate for the Illinois senate. Where was the Cheney's outrage in defense of their daughter when Keyes called Mary a 'selfish hedonist' who chooses to live a life of sin? Nowhere. They didn't say a word. But now, when Kerry calls her a 'child of God' who didn't choose to be a lesbian, they're oh so shocked. How could he?! What a bad, bad man!

Bullshit.

Raven

[DeV]

Great point Raven. I was listening to him on television that night and his words went from ridiculous to just plain shocking. It is bullshit. If I was Cheney I would have really let the outrage pour out then.

[Carl Spackler]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Republicans got the White House through cheap shots. It's funny to hear them complain when the shoe is on the other foot.

That may be the most unintelligent thing I have ever heard.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
I would be curious to hear from gays about their views of each presidential candidate.

The majority that I know of support Kerry. No, he isn't perfect. He's got this hangup about traditional marriage in its religious context and believes it should be limited to just a man and woman. And while he voted against the FMA, he supports a Constitutional amendment on the state level for Mass. that says as much.

However. He also fully supports civil unions on both the state and federal levels. He might want the term marriage reserved for heterosexual unions but he believes homosexual ones should have the same exact legal benefits, responsibilities and protections that their straight counterparts do.

Many Republican gays point to his stand on marriage and try to say that we should be as outraged with him as we are at Bush. They're idiots. The differences are like night and day and while Kerry needs to take that one further step, that's almost the only area in which he's found wanting.

Bush? He's not only against extending any equal rights but he's been trying to get them taken away as well.

Raven

[Carl Spackler]

If Bush gets his second term in office, I believe you'll see a big change in him. For one it doesn't matter what he does, because he doesn't need to worry about being re-elected. Second half the shit he says or does is to please the conservative catholics because he gets a ton of votes from them, and a ton of money. Since he no longer needs to worry about gaining their vote again, he can act has he really sees fit, now how his big supporters do.

All politics really is, is saying things you don't mean and being nice to people you don't like.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Carl Spackler
If Bush gets his second term in office, I believe you'll see a big change in him. For one it doesn't matter what he does, because he doesn't need to worry about being re-elected. Second half the shit he says or does is to please the conservative catholics because he gets a ton of votes from them, and a ton of money. Since he no longer needs to worry about gaining their vote again, he can act has he really sees fit, now how his big supporters do.


He'll do just like Al Gore did.

Grow a beard and dissappear for years.

[Ravenstorm]

Are you suggesting he's really not the man of integrity and honor he says he is? That he's just a political bureaucrat who flip-flops on whatever issue he feels will get him the most votes? That he'll gladly lie about his position to further his political career?

And that we should ignore everything he's done in his first four years because he can't be trusted to do what he says?

Raven