Call to Arms for TheE and other crusading lawyers

[Atlanteax]

http://www.thewrap.com/john-oliver-explains-out-how-traffic-tickets-can-ruin-peoples-lives-video/

I saw this on John Oliver last night.

Absolutely insane that individual (poor) people get traffic violation/citation fines for $50, and because they are unable to pay it immediately ... end up paying a $100 fee to be on a payment plan, and ultimately spend 4 digits before their $50 fine is ultimately paid off. The later due to because whenever she made a payment, it went to the payment plan fees (an additional charge each month) before the fine itself.

IIRC, under the "American Fair Credit Act", credit card companies are now expected to accept payments towards higher interest-rate charging balances before the lower balances. Apparently this philosophy was not extended to municipal courts and private probation companies.

.

Then I saw the part where some guy shoplifted a $2 can of beer, and was fined for that. So one private probation company 'suggested' that the dude be equipped with an ankle-brace to show location at all times, until fine is paid off.
BUT they charge the guy $360 a month ($20 a day) for the ankle brace. Guy ends up spending 7 or so days in jail because of inability to fully pay off the fines (and the probation company's invoices), which ultimately costs the local authorities way more than the fine was. Apparently a *republican* lawyer (as per Oliver) got the guy out of what was essentially a modern-day debtor's prison.

Oliver also shared the story of Tom Barrett, a man who stole a can of beer who eventually ended up paying $270 in fines. On top of this, Barrett was incarcerated for nonpayment, which cost his city over $3,000 in order to house him for that time.

.

So why does this happen? Just systematic indifference to the extent that individuals are mere social security #s? Is the only way to stop/prevent this sort of nonsensical abuse (total debt collection fees *>* original fine) are reform laws at the state/federal level?

[AnticorRifling]

Or the shoplifter could just not shoplift.

[waywardgs]

A 2 dollar mistake shouldn't ruin your life. People make mistakes.

[waywardgs]

What happens is that their punishments become more severe than it would be for someone else specifically because they're poor. Thats a bad system.

[Atlanteax]

Seems it would be easily solved by replacing $$$ fines with hours of community service.

[Tgo01]

It's kind of hard to feel sorry for these people for opting to go on payment plans when I'm willing to bet money that 99% of them own the latest iPhone.

People are stupid. They think "Gee, I can either pay 200 dollars now or sign up for a payment plan that only costs 10 bucks a month. Well obviously 200 > 10 so I'm taking the payment plan!"

It's the same reason most people don't pay more than the minimum amount due on their credit cards. Why pay that shit off early?

Americans are notorious for not thinking long term.

[Fallen]

I think we should all be able to admit that paying thousands of dollars for a fine that was originally under 100 dollars is not justice.

[Tgo01]

I think we should all be able to admit that paying thousands of dollars for a fine that was originally under 100 dollars is not justice.

I'm sure there is more to the story. Late fees. Payment plans. Interest.

It's just like how a 100 dollar credit card bill can end up being a lot more if someone doesn't take care of the bill.

[JackWhisper]

I think community service for offenders like shoplifters who have no violent record is absolutely appropriate. I also think a lot of the enforcement of law is overzealous, to say the least. I read the Tom Barrett story, it was appalling.

[Fallen]

I'm sure there is more to the story. Late fees. Payment plans. Interest.

It's just like how a 100 dollar credit card bill can end up being a lot more if someone doesn't take care of the bill.

It doesn't make sense to allow fees to reach a point beyond a certain percentage of the original fine. This wasn't a purchase, it was a fine. What is the end-game for having a system where one can be impoverished from a parking ticket? Why should for-profit companies be involved in ticketing?

We need to find some common ground in order to have any sort of a meaningful discussion.

Do people here support debtor's prisons?

[Androidpk]

It's kind of hard to feel sorry for these people for opting to go on payment plans when I'm willing to bet money that 99% of them own the latest iPhone.

People are stupid. They think "Gee, I can either pay 200 dollars now or sign up for a payment plan that only costs 10 bucks a month. Well obviously 200 > 10 so I'm taking the payment plan!"

It's the same reason most people don't pay more than the minimum amount due on their credit cards. Why pay that shit off early?

Americans are notorious for not thinking long term.

Are you trying to pick up Back's slack? Its too early to be drunk and stupid.

[Tgo01]

It doesn't make sense to allow fees to reach a point beyond a certain percentage of the original fine.

Why not? You miss a payment you get fined. You miss another payment you get fined again. Doesn't make sense to allow someone to keep not paying the fine and receive no additional punishment.


What is the end-game for having a system where one can be impoverished from a parking ticket?

That's just the thing; I highly doubt people are being "impoverished" by these fines. It seems the biggest thing from this story was the payment plan and that's exactly my point earlier; people opt for the payment plan because they don't think long term. They would rather pay 10 dollars a month and end up paying 3x, 4x, 5x or even more than the total cost of the fine because they would rather make payment plans. I wouldn't be opposed to some education for these people who need to understand that paying 1000 dollars over the course of 10 years is more money than paying 100 dollars upfront. Believe me, this isn't anything new. People are just stupid.


Why should for-profit companies be involved in ticketing?

They shouldn't. At the very least they should have no say in whether or not someone gets an ankle bracelet put on them.


Are you trying to pick up Back's slack? Its too early to be drunk and stupid.

You still bitter because you couldn't name one thing Snowden revealed that proved the government purposefully violated the constitution?

[Fallen]

If they don't pay the fine they can lose their license. It isn't a choice out of convenience, but necessity.

You're essentially saying you support predatory lending.

[Tgo01]

If they don't pay the fine they can lose their license. It isn't a choice out of convenience, but necessity.

Paying the fine is necessary; opting to make plans and not paying it off early is a choice of convenience.


You're essentially saying you support predatory lending.

I'm essentially saying no such thing. I'm saying people need to realize that paying off the fine (or their credit card) as soon as possible is better than letting the fees and interest and penalties pile up.

I also wouldn't be opposed to these sort of fines being base on one's income. It's bullshit that the same 200 dollar fine can be one person's entire paycheck and the cost of another person's tie.

But even if these fines were based on income I'd bet you people would still opt for a payment plan and would still end up paying a lot more than their fine was.

[kutter]

I would say he supports people obeying the law and if you do not, then do not cry about the shitty choices you made to try to deal with it.

[JackWhisper]

I also wouldn't be opposed to these sort of fines being base on one's income. It's bullshit that the same 200 dollar fine can be one person's entire paycheck and the cost of another person's tie.

I'm not in this discussion, but I agree with this. Speeding violations in... Germany? I can't remember. One of the places with the autobahn. If you're speeding on it, and get caught by a cop on one of the sections WITH a limit, you get a ticket that requires paying a % of your annual income. Some Swedish guy's ticket was like 200 grand. Did he care? No. He was a rich fucker. But it put a dent in his lifestyle. An equal dent it would put in a poor person.

Equal treatment is good.

[Fallen]

In many of these cases outstanding tickets are passed off to a for-profit company that levies fines on a monthly basis. There is no choice. They cannot afford the fine, it is passed to a company which then charges interest. This interest is placed in front of the fine, so you could be making payments and never touch the principle.

[Ker_Thwap]

First, shoplifting a beer isn't a $2 mistake, it's a deliberate choice. It's not stealing a loaf of bread to feed your child act of desperation. It's a lifestyle choice, it's saying screw you, my wants take precedence over your needs.

Second, we don't know the parole officer's reasoning for recommending the bracelet. If it's a first offense shoplifting, with no flight risk, it's wrong. If it's a "this guy again" situation, he never reports in and avoids contact, then yeah, slap the bracelet on him and let him pay.

Somewhere between the British system (where offenders walk out the revolving door, and the 100th time the judge might issue them a sternly worded statement not to do it again) and between that Arizona Sheriff clown is the answer. Criminals need some sort of encouragement not to keep screwing with the public. Maybe ugly fines that will make their lives unpleasant will discourage the next criminal.

I know that for a lot of years, I didn't speed even a little, because I knew I couldn't afford the ticket. One summer I got a $5 parking ticket every day, so I could attend a summer course and park next to the building. When the penalties are too low, people weigh the risks. When the penalties get too high, one would expect it to work the same weigh. Maybe think twice before taking $2 out of the pocket of some store owner.

[Androidpk]

You still bitter because you couldn't name one thing Snowden revealed that proved the government purposefully violated the constitution?

Wayward already linked a page that should have broken it down for you. Let me ask you this, if Obama were to sign an executive order tomorrow banning all religion in the US you would be okay with it, because it violates everyone on a mass scale?

[JackWhisper]

First, shoplifting a beer isn't a $2 mistake, it's a deliberate choice. It's not stealing a loaf of bread to feed your child act of desperation. It's a lifestyle choice, it's saying screw you, my wants take precedence over your needs.

This made me chuckle. When I was younger, I worked at a bakery in a WalMart. During my time there, WalMart went through their throwaway policy changes *If you worked at WalMart 8-12 years ago, you went through this*.

Basically, they used to just let us collect the stuff that was unsold and daily-weekly perishables *Unsold breads/donuts/meats/etc*. Things that would spoil, and could not legally be sold anymore. Before the policy change, we would collect it four times a month and it would go behind the store. People who were less fortunate would come pick up food. It was nothing special, no ceremony, and it was something MY store did. It wasn't policy that every store do it. It was what Joe, our store's manager, said we could do, to help out the homeless around our store.

Then WalMart went through a huge LP overhaul. LP is Loss Prevention. Not only does that include thieves and shoplifters. But it also includes employees. Basically they're security guards for the profit margin. Which is fine. I actually wanted to be an LP officer at one point in time. It was fun catching people acting weird. Anyways. WalMart handed down a new policy that said that all perishables that would normally be unsold and consumed/handed out to people without being purchased, were to be thrown in the trash, specifically lockable dumpsters, so that people could not take advantage of free services.

My point is this. I was a snarky little fuck when I was younger. I disagreed with why they did it. It was throwaway food. I worked in the bakery and I emptied DOZENS of donuts and fresh bread every shift into the trash. So I manipulated where I emptied the donut and bread racks. They'd all LOOK like they were going into the trash can, but the donuts and bread loaves would all be going into a clean fresh disposable plastic bag that I would then wrap and set to the side. Once I took the trash out, I would wait until I was just outside by the dumpsters, and drop the bag inconspicuously behind one of them, out of the sight of the cameras.

Was what I doing wrong? Fuck yeah. Did I agree with what WalMart's policies were? Not at all. Was I willing to accept the consequences if caught? You bet. I believed in what I was doing. It wasn't much, but there were families camped out there who had nothing. It made me feel wretched. So I did something about it.

I was never caught, and I wasn't the only one doing it. I'm not proud of the actions I took for what they were, but I am proud that I was man enough to stand up for what I believed in, even though I wasn't put to the test. I like to think I would have held my mettle against the pressure. Who knows.

People get desperate. I don't agree about stealing a beer. But I have seen, and 100% understand, stealing food for your family.

[Tgo01]

Wayward already linked a page that should have broken it down for you. Let me ask you this, if Obama were to sign an executive order tomorrow banning all religion in the US you would be okay with it, because it violates everyone on a mass scale?

You mean the list where one of the things listed dealt with the British spy agency and where the other things listed didn't violate the constitution? That link? Do you perhaps have another link to share?

Also you're comparing courts agreeing that certain searches don't violate the fourth amendment as long as they are performed on everyone or on people at random with outlawing all religion? And you say I'm picking up Back's slack today, that might be the stupidest analogy in the history of stupid analogies.

[Fallen]

People seem to be of the mindset that no matter how unfair the penalties, fines, fees, and payment systems are, it doesn't matter because the initial incident, no matter how slight, was the fault of the individual. Any repercussions from that incident are then completely justifiable. There seems to be little point in pointing out the unbalances in such a system, no matter how severe. It's a waste a time. That's why these types of abusive systems do not get fixed.

[Androidpk]

You mean the list where one of the things listed dealt with the British spy agency and where the other things listed didn't violate the constitution? That link? Do you perhaps have another link to share?

Also you're comparing courts agreeing that certain searches don't violate the fourth amendment as long as they are performed on everyone or on people at random with outlawing all religion? And you say I'm picking up Back's slack today, that might be the stupidest analogy in the history of stupid analogies.

Ahh, so it is okay for the federal government to pick and choose which rights it wants to violate. How cute that you actually think that's okay.

[Latrinsorm]

That's just the thing; I highly doubt people are being "impoverished" by these fines. It seems the biggest thing from this story was the payment plan and that's exactly my point earlier; people opt for the payment plan because they don't think long term. They would rather pay 10 dollars a month and end up paying 3x, 4x, 5x or even more than the total cost of the fine because they would rather make payment plans. I wouldn't be opposed to some education for these people who need to understand that paying 1000 dollars over the course of 10 years is more money than paying 100 dollars upfront. Believe me, this isn't anything new. People are just stupid.For the record, sometimes people can actually better afford the payment plan than the lump sum up front. Think of it in terms of buying a car, then remember that not everyone has $100 on them at all times you filthy 1%er.
Wayward already linked a page that should have broken it down for you. Let me ask you this, if Obama were to sign an executive order tomorrow banning all religion in the US you would be okay with it, because it violates everyone on a mass scale?Not all Amendments are worded the same way. It so happens that the Fourth Amendment and the part of the First regarding religion are sui generis: they aren't comparable to any other Amendment, let alone each other. Legislation that violates one does not necessarily violate the other if you substitute "infringe religion" for "search", because you can't get from one Amendment to the other by doing the same thing.

Our Constitution is not a simple list of freedoms, and the distinctions in wording are significant.

[Androidpk]

People seem to be of the mindset that no matter how unfair the penalties, fines, fees, and payment systems are, it doesn't matter because the initial incident, no matter how slight, was the fault of the individual. Any repercussions from that incident are then completely justifiable. There seems to be little point in pointing out the unbalances in such a system, no matter how severe. It's a waste a time. That's why these types of abusive systems do not get fixed.

Well, not only that, but money. Lots and lots of money. Private prisons for example. They rake in cash from state and federal governments. Then they turn around and lobby congress to keep the money flowing. If you look in states that vote on legalizing marijuana you'll always see these companies funding the opposition.

[Androidpk]

For the record, sometimes people can actually better afford the payment plan than the lump sum up front. Think of it in terms of buying a car, then remember that not everyone has $100 on them at all times you filthy 1%er.Not all Amendments are worded the same way. It so happens that the Fourth Amendment and the part of the First regarding religion are sui generis: they aren't comparable to any other Amendment, let alone each other. Legislation that violates one does not necessarily violate the other if you substitute "infringe religion" for "search", because you can't get from one Amendment to the other by doing the same thing.

Our Constitution is not a simple list of freedoms, and the distinctions in wording are significant.

Ok, tgo.

[Archigeek]

This isn't just about some guy who stole a beer, that's just one example. This happens with parking tickets, civil fines and trying to get your car back from the impound lot. Debtor's prison is against the law in the US, and piling on to the point where the same crime gets a vastly more severe punishment if you're poor is wrong.

[Tgo01]

Ahh, so it is okay for the federal government to pick and choose which rights it wants to violate. How cute that you actually think that's okay.

Dude, for the umpteenth time I would be more than happy to engage in a discussion about this but first you must point out how and when the government purposefully violated the constitution. You say wayward linked a page that listed them all, great. Let's deal with some of the ones I can remember from the list.

Okay, one dealt with how the British spy agency collected information. Okay. Where does the constitution say we are responsible for how the UK does anything at all?

A couple of others dealt with how we spied on people in other countries. Great. Where does the constitution deal with how we spy on people in other countries at all?

[JackWhisper]

This isn't just about some guy who stole a beer, that's just one example. This happens with parking tickets, civil fines and trying to get your car back from the impound lot. Debtor's prison is against the law in the US, and piling on to the point where the same crime gets a vastly more severe punishment if you're poor is wrong.

A friend of mine got their car impounded wrongly *The license plate was read incorrectly, substituting a 3 for a B, and her car got taken away. It got sorted in three days. Which included a weekend, so it was five days. The impound lot had the car ready to go. For more than 400 bucks. She couldn't pay that. She then had to go to the court house, to file something to get the impound lot to release her from the debt. :blah:

In the end, she had to pay more than 200 dollars in filing fees to get it all done. She got out of the impound fees, didn't have to pay for the ticket/towing of the car (even though it was erroneous to begin with), but to get everything righted, the money had to come out of her pocket.

What sense does that make??

[Androidpk]

A friend of mine got their car impounded wrongly *The license plate was read incorrectly, substituting a 3 for a B, and her car got taken away. It got sorted in three days. Which included a weekend, so it was five days. The impound lot had the car ready to go. For more than 400 bucks. She couldn't pay that. She then had to go to the court house, to file something to get the impound lot to release her from the debt. :blah:

In the end, she had to pay more than 200 dollars in filing fees to get it all done. She got out of the impound fees, didn't have to pay for the ticket/towing of the car (even though it was erroneous to begin with), but to get everything righted, the money had to come out of her pocket.

What sense does that make??

That's fucked up.

[Gelston]

Here in Shreveport, if you can't afford a fine you can go to jail. It is like $10 a day.

[JackWhisper]

Here in Shreveport, if you can't afford a fine you can go to jail. It is like $10 a day.

You guys have werewolf problems.

[Gelston]

You guys have werewolf problems.

I haven't seen a single damn werewolf or vampire.

[JackWhisper]

I haven't seen a single damn werewolf or vampire.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLYVx-qlv1c

[kutter]

Vampires too, although, that seems to have gotten a little better

[kutter]

I haven't seen a single damn werewolf or vampire.

Then clearly you are not hanging out in the right places

[JackWhisper]

Then clearly you are not hanging out in the right places

This.

[Androidpk]

I haven't seen a single damn werewolf or vampire.

That is exactly what a werewolf or vampire would say.

[Johnny Five]

I have to chuckle every time I see the difference in ND and MN speeding ticket prices. ND is about 1$ for every mph over the limit. MN is like 145$ until you get to 20 over then its 212$.
So in ND I can be Speeding on highway 70 mph limit, 31 to 35 mph over the limit: $150 (39-06.1-06(11)) for the same price as a MN speeding ticket. Let's just say, I speed in ND.

http://www.speedingtickethq.com/minnesota-speeding-ticket-fines/
http://www.speedingtickethq.com/north-dakota-speeding-ticket-fines/

[Gelston]

I have to chuckle every time I see the difference in ND and MN speeding ticket prices. ND is about 1$ for every mph over the limit. MN is like 145$ until you get to 20 over then its 212$.
So in ND I can be Speeding on highway 70 mph limit, 31 to 35 mph over the limit: $150 (39-06.1-06(11)) for the same price as a MN speeding ticket. Let's just say, I speed in ND.

http://www.mncourts.gov/district/4/?page=4409
http://www.speedingtickethq.com/north-dakota-speeding-ticket-fines/

You belong in prison. Forever.

[Johnny Five]

You belong in prison. Forever.

I know! The shame! I tend to do just the 5 mph over standard that is acceptable in MN. ND I'm like 70 in a 55. I'll burn.
Also seems like you really gotta be moving for the ND troopers to even look at you. I've passed them quite a few times going like 10-15 over and they don't even budge. Guess it's not worth their time for a 15$ ticket.

[JackWhisper]

You belong in prison. Forever.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBzvMLW0ii4

[Gelston]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O317T6Zlno

Made me think of this song.

[Archigeek]

A friend of mine got their car impounded wrongly *The license plate was read incorrectly, substituting a 3 for a B, and her car got taken away. It got sorted in three days. Which included a weekend, so it was five days. The impound lot had the car ready to go. For more than 400 bucks. She couldn't pay that. She then had to go to the court house, to file something to get the impound lot to release her from the debt. :blah:

In the end, she had to pay more than 200 dollars in filing fees to get it all done. She got out of the impound fees, didn't have to pay for the ticket/towing of the car (even though it was erroneous to begin with), but to get everything righted, the money had to come out of her pocket.

What sense does that make??

Mine got towed while I was packing up my desk after a layoff. Came out the door with a dolly of boxes and the door locked behind me and my truck was gone. It was a country music moment, and in going to get my truck from the impound lot, I was made aware of how much of a hardship impounding is for the poor, who cannot pay the exorbitant charge, and are then subjected to additional daily charges for "parking", which are also ridiculously high.

[waywardgs]

Mine got towed while I was packing up my desk after a layoff. Came out the door with a dolly of boxes and the door locked behind me and my truck was gone. It was a country music moment, and in going to get my truck from the impound lot, I was made aware of how much of a hardship impounding is for the poor, who cannot pay the exorbitant charge, and are then subjected to additional daily charges for "parking", which are also ridiculously high.

No way. It's never a hardship. Everyone's got the latest iphone. There are no poor people. Tgo said so.