Culture

I recently took the political poll and foudn the question that I asked rather interesting and felt that it could create some fun discussion.

Anyway, I personally believe so, simply because the people of Europe and North America are so much more advanced than those in the Far East (excluding Japan, but they are Americanized) and those found in Africa.

Anyway, what do YOU think?

[Artha]

They all have their ups and downs. Some definitely come out ahead, though.

Oh! I forgot to add, how well do you think our culture as Americans stacks up against others (even Europeans).

- Arkans

[GSTamral]

It depends how you look at things. Having Indian parents but being born and raised in the United States, I much prefer American culture, but it doesn't necessarily make it better.

Japan has not Americanized.

Western European culture and American culture are night and day. Looking the same in general does not mean they have any means of emulation. They have an entirely different structure of life.

Generally though, American and European culture appear to promote the welfare of people in general and the minority. Some African cultures, for instance, do not. Take a look at all the savage fighting there. Take a look at horrible conditions in say, Vietnam. Wouldn't that put our culture ahead of theirs?

- Arkans

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Arkans
Anyway, I personally believe so, simply because the people of Europe and North America are so much more advanced...

That would be incorrect. I believe you mean that the technology and industrial base is so much more advanced. Culture however is independant of technology and standard of living. Culture is about the arts. It's about what is considered important. It's about how the elderly are treated. It's about so many things, many of them small but are part of a larger picture that make up 'American' or 'Japanese' or any of the others.

Given that, I'd have to say no culture is inherently superior. It's all about what you enjoy and what your priorities are. America has many good things going for it: parts I very much consider superior. It also has many things that suck.

Raven

[Edited on 10-14-2004 by Ravenstorm]

[Delaroz]

Somehow I think when people think their culture is greater than others they are certainly missing some very subtle nuances of various cultures. What if some of those African cultures you feel America is better than don't have a monetary system and the needs of the people are met by the community at large without quarrel? What of those very out of the way farmers and "tribes' in China that get visited every now and again from some Communist official that informs them they are part of the People's Republic and just go back happily farming rice and living in relative peace and obscurity they've enjoyed for centuries when he gets the fuck out? No, no culture is superior, just different, and so long as the people are happy and harmonious, who cares.

In fact... is America happy and harmonious? Hmmm, think hard now...

[StrayRogue]

Depends how you define culture. If you define it as technological advancement, then yes, Europe and North America win hands down. If you define it as a countries history, its heritage and its significance in global events throughout time, then some third world countries will be near the top, while America will be somewhere near the bottom.

[Artha]

No, no culture is superior, just different, and so long as the people are happy and harmonious, who cares.

That same african culture that has no monetary system might also practice barbarous acts such as genital mutilation. Saying that differences mean that there is no superior culture is, to me, an over simplified and overly politically correct view.

[Delaroz]

Originally posted by Artha

No, no culture is superior, just different, and so long as the people are happy and harmonious, who cares.

That same african culture that has no monetary system might also practice barbarous acts such as genital mutilation. Saying that differences mean that there is no superior culture is, to me, an over simplified and overly politically correct view.

I'm not saying it to be PC. Heh, I am about as un-PC as it gets, as you may see if you get to know me. Anyway, I am saying every culture has it's good and bad and likely it all evens out in the wash. Sure, America has it's wonderous capitalism, but we're as litigious as hell because of it. Communist Russia started with high ideals and really, I love Communism... on paper. The reality is it often gets ugly when those in power get greedy because men are men, after all. All I'm saying is, and as I voted, no one culture is better than the other - in the grand scheme of things when looked at in its entirety.

I think culture does have to do with technology and every type of advancement. That is part of our value systems and that goes hand in hand with culture.

- Arkans

[StrayRogue]

Yes, your value sytem. Doesn't mean its the rest of the worlds or anyone else's opinion.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
If you define it as a countries history, its heritage and its significance in global events throughout time, then some third world countries will be near the top, while America will be somewhere near the bottom. I don't know how any country can be more significant in global events than America, except maybe Spain, Russia, Britain, or Italy. We didn't get called a superpower for nothing.

I truly think it is a nations culture that determines the condition they are in. How can Europe be so much more advanced than Africa? Africa has the resources. It has the means it just does not have the right value system/beliefs.

- Arkans

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by StrayRogue
If you define it as a countries history, its heritage and its significance in global events throughout time, then some third world countries will be near the top, while America will be somewhere near the bottom. I don't know how any country can be more significant in global events than America, except maybe Spain, Russia, Britain, or Italy. We didn't get called a superpower for nothing.

What was America doing in World Politics 300 years ago? What crusades, wars and discoveries did it participate in?

[SpunGirl]

Older does not necessarily equal better. I'm sure you know, Stray, that the United States of America did not exist 300 years ago as a country. But let's look at the things the US has accomplished in the VERY short time it has been in existence (short in comparison to other countries).

I mean, at least we didn't go all over the world colonizing shit. Were I a leader in such a country, I wouldn't want ot be subjected to the rigamaroll of losing my little colonies one... by one... by one.

Bummer.

-K

Also, I think the more advanced nations would be doing the colonizing. Yeah, like that African colony in Great Britian!

- Arkans

[SpunGirl]

Sounds to me like some people are still bitter that they lost the American colonies so early on. Countries like the UK and Portugal were HUGE in exploration and the whole endeavorous (is that a word) spirit of the times, but what have they done SINCE then? Let go of the past, man.

-K

[StrayRogue]

I didn't say better nor am I bitter. No matter what any of you say America does not have the rich cultural heritage that many other countries do. So you can say what you like. If you want to get into What have they done since then, thats fine. Its not like every country on the globe has been stagnant since your nation began life. The point is America may have culture now, but it hasn't always in comparison to most of the world.

But notice what a European influence can create? The complete success of the most powerful nation on earth, America. Look at what say, Vietnam turned into for not assimiliated to a French way of life.

- Arkans

[Hulkein]

:violin:

Yes, the cultures that approve of raping women as a daily right are indeed on par with the American (and others) culture, one of self sacrifice for God-given freedom. /sarcasm

Shut the fuck up with this political correctness.

[StrayRogue]

I'm sure someone across the world would say exactly the same of America.

[Hulkein]

...

And?

Won't make it true if they say it about us.

- Arkans

[StrayRogue]

The point was, Arkans, that some cultures would look down upon the American way of life just you look down upon theirs.

[Hulkein]

No one ever said they are incapable of thought or opinion.

Some people think blacks should be slaves. Does that somehow invalidate the fact that they aren't?

[StrayRogue]

This was your point Hulkein. You were whining about how some cultures deem it right for rape etc. Just because you can only see other cultures in a negative light, doesn't mean your own isn't perfect in many, many ways.

[Hulkein]

Riiiiight.

You made a point that has no relevance.

[StrayRogue]

What about "America does not have the rich cultural heritage that many other countries do" do you not understand? In fact which culturally significant milestone EVER occured in America? I can think of a few on the level of the Renaissance, the Greek enlightenment, and such, but not many.

You vacation in many countries like Egypt, Italy, China or Japan and you will discover they have such a myriad of historically relevent and culturally specific nuances that America probably won't have for another century or so. American culture is probably best described as Western culture, not American culture. It barely scratches the surface when compared to other countries.

[HarmNone]

Out of curiosity, how many of us have actually experienced other cultures, outside of the ones in which we live? (I don't mean riding the tour bus around Vienna...I mean actually living in, and experiencing, the culture.

Yet, we've proven ourselves so capable that we created the most powerful nation on Earth. I think that's saying a hell of a lot, considering everyone else had a damn good head start ahead of us.

- Arkans

I have experienced Polish culture.

- Arkans

[HarmNone]

If power defines culture for you, Arkans, then that might be true.

Not just military power. I mean being an economical powerhouse as well as having an extremely good standard of living. Power, to me, is defined as a combination of everything.

- Arkans

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
What about "America does not have the rich cultural heritage that many other countries do" do you not understand? In fact which culturally significant milestone EVER occured in America? I can think of a few on the level of the Renaissance, the Greek enlightenment, and such, but not many.

You vacation in many countries like Egypt, Italy, China or Japan and you will discover they have such a myriad of historically relevent and culturally specific nuances that America probably won't have for another century or so. American culture is probably best described as Western culture, not American culture. It barely scratches the surface when compared to other countries.

I understand that.

I also understand that the current cultural heritage of many tribes is that of rape and male dominance. Why? Because they can kill the women if they need to.

Cultures that do not advance beyond the point of wooden spears and cannot grasp the fact that just because the women are weaker doesn't mean they can just rape them and call it a ritual are below many, many other cultures.

Also, what part about me saying that your point which was 'others say the same thing' has zero relevance do you not understand?

Actually, you probably do see now that it has zero relevance since you were wise enough to ditch that statement.

Edited to add the quote.

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by Hulkein]

[Warriorbird]

Only way to maintain any perspective is to be smack dab in the middle of cultural relativism and ethnocentrism. Going too far either way makes you a pain in the ass.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Arkans
I have experienced Polish culture.

- Arkans

How long did you spend in Poland, and where were you? I'd love to hear about it! :)

Well, I was born in Poland (surprise, suprise) and I spent my early childhood there. Shortly before the fall of Soviet Union my family escaped to Spain, where we lived for a year. After that, we moved to America, in hopes of getting to Cananda (to our family) shortly. We never made it to Cananda, just stayed here.

After that, I went back there occasionally during the summers and spent time there and just recently I was back there for my Grandfather's funeral. I was staying at my father's home town of Trezbina (formly, a German town named Northeim) and travelled to my birth city of Wroclaw (formally a German city named Breslau).

Overall though, it was an extremely interesting experience. Even though the Soviet system fell, I really saw how badly people's mentality were damaged by the whole style of life. People there (the older generation) are really unable to cope in a new capatlistic life-style and just elect former Party members into life terms to their former offices.

Luckily, the country is now going through sort of a "rebirth". The old Soviet Blocs are being repainted, the buildings that had no care are finally being taken care of and sold Soviet gorvnement buildings are being converted. Also, the architecture is going back to a more traditional European-style, rather than the communist "Industrial" style.

Oh, there is a ton more I could say, but I don't want to bore anyone, heh!

- Arkans

[DeV]

Originally posted by Artha

No, no culture is superior, just different, and so long as the people are happy and harmonious, who cares.

That same african culture that has no monetary system might also practice barbarous acts such as genital mutilation. Saying that differences mean that there is no superior culture is, to me, an over simplified and overly politically correct view. Genital mutilation occurs in the United States as well. In some way that would make it apart of this culture we call America, unless we look at the ethnicities behind the practice performed. In any case the barbaric act is happens here as well.

I think it would be fair to say that those people are not adapting to normal American values.

- Arkans

[HarmNone]

Wow! That's anything but boring, Arkans...at least, to me! Poland is one of the countries I was never fortunate enough to visit. I've always regretted not getting the opportunity to see it. It's good to hear that the beauty of European architecture is being brought back. Hopefully, the people will be able to find their way back to better times, as well. :)

[Ravenstorm]

Many (most?) people alive today (including an ever growing number of Americans) call circumcision genital mutilation. Just a thought.

Raven

[SpunGirl]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
The point is America may have culture now, but it hasn't always in comparison to most of the world.

Really? I think the hundreds of thousands of Native Americans who actively work to keep their culture alive, pass down oral traditions and histories, and continue to practice culturally relevant cermonies and rites might have something to say about that. That something might fall along the lines of, "whatever."

-K

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
Many (most?) people alive today (including an ever growing number of Americans) call circumcision genital mutilation. Just a thought.

Raven

I was thinking the same thing, Ravenstorm. So much depends on one's perspective, eh?

[DeV]

Everyone's culture is unique. Even as we are engrossed in American/Western culture we retain the history of our ethnicity and our family. Every culture excels in areas that others might not be as gifted in. All in all I think our individuality is what counts the most and should hold the most bearing on determining our place in this world.

Unfortunately, HN, it'll take the passing of a whole generation. One has to realize that the minds of people were polluted by Soviet ideology for almost 50 years. They could just make "friends" in the Party and have luxuries delivered to them or miss work for days at a time and still get payed for it. Unfortunately, that gets them fired now.

Also, poverty is rampant there right now. The average Pole makes about $300 a month. This appears to be because Poland currently lacks a middle-class. You are either well off as a business owner or you are a very poor worker. Also, other European countries are exploiting Poland horribly.

For instance, in the EU Germany has a limit on how many items a person can manufacture based on how many factories they own. So, a German shoe manufacturer might only be able to produce 10,000 pairs of shoes per month from each factory they own (a random number), but now, since Poland is in the EU, the German can buy a shoe factory in Poland for dirty cheap, shut it down, count that as "his factory" and raise his production allowance. This *CONSTANTLY* happens in Poland and just leads to higher unemployement (which is around 20% now).

The reason Poland allows this? The old Soviet menatlity. "The Soviets are bad, so why deal with Eastern Europe, we can compete with Western European countries". Well, that proved to be folly. Poland is pretty much being ripped apart economically by the likes of Germany.

This causes a lot of people to lose heart and try to move to other countries which causes even more problems in the labor force in Poland. Luckily, Poles are getting smarter in this game and things are slowly changing. For instance, the University of Breslau truly resembles the Palace of Versailles. It is the second most beautiful building I have ever been inside of (right behind Versailles).

- Arkans

[Hulkein]

<<the University of Breslau truly resembles the Palace of Versailles. It is the second most beautiful building I have ever been inside of (right behind Versailles).>>

Veterans Stadium was better.

[HarmNone]

Poor Poland has been decimated more than once in its sad history. To have it happen now, economically, seems doubly cruel. The Poles are a brave and strong people. They've had to be. With time, they will come through, I'm sure.

Communism as the Soviet Union practiced it was so detrimental to so many cultures. It will take years for any of them to recover, I'm sure.

All a matter of opinion there! I still think Versailles is beautiful. I would really love to return there.

- Arkans

That's very true, HN, the sad part of it all? Poland is the country that faired the best under the Soviets. Russia is a disaster and Poland is the "Promised Land" to most Russians. The Czech Republic is even poorer. Eastern Europe could have been a power house with its resources, proud people, and culture, but unfortunately, it REALLY got the short end of the stick.

- Arkans

[HarmNone]

Versailles is amazing! There are so many fascinating things in the world. When you were in Spain, Arkans, were you able to visit the Alhambra? I found that very interesting. :)

I was. I spent a good year there and luckily, I came from an educated family that really appreciated these types of things (then again, living close by didn't hurt either)! The only thing that I wish I had kept from Spain was the lanuage. I was able to speak fluent Spanish, but since it was never practiced at home, I pretty much lost it. Then again, knowing Polish and English isn't bad!

- Arkans

[HarmNone]

I, too, feel fortunate to have been able to live the life I've lived. So many never travel far from home, and never have the opportunity to see and learn from other cultures. It's a wonderful gift to have been given. :)

[Edaarin]

Have you ever been to Vietnam, Arkans?

EDIT: I'm about to go to bed, but basically I just take issue with your position that Vietnam is in the poor situation it's in now because France's colonization didn't take.

You can't force a whole new way of life on to 75 million people, especially when a significant part of the indigenous population lives in remote areas (i.e., the so-called "Mountain People"). France knew this, it's why they put in a puppet regime at the end of the 19th century. For the 50 some odd years between that and Dien Bien Phu, what exactly did France accomplish?

Did the quality of living improve for the native people? Not particularly, for the most part they were poor farmers or still lived in ramshackle houses in the city. Education? A lot of schools in Vietnam still follow the French education system, but it's my contention that east Asian style schooling (like those in place in China, Japan) are more effective.

The country has a rich history and culture that is completely different from that of America. Yes, the quality of life is assuredly much lower than that here, and there's not a week that goes by that I don't think about how lucky I am to be in this country. Who are you, though, to judge how millions of people voluntarily live their lives?

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by Edaarin]

No, and honestly, I don't ever plan on travelling to a Communist country. Too many problems that it may cause.

As for HN, travelling is a gift that should ALWAYS be accepted. It's highly addicting and something that I plan on doing more of. Another interesting and fascinating place in France was Omaha Beach. It was a very somber experience. I went there during low tide, just so I can run up it (I'm a geek) to see how it was like. Luckily there wern't a shitload of MG 42s shooting at me!

- Arkans

[Back]

Three pages later and we’re talking about vacations. So I’m going to add some stuff thats probably already been said. But not by me, so here goes.

About this whole “culture” thing. America is so young yet that it has only really developed its own culture within the past 80 years or so. Even then, it draws on Europe, and Europe has drawn on what was called the orient, and so on.

American culture rocks. Literaly. Blues, Jazz, Rock’n’Roll, Rythym and Blues, and Rap are all certified American originals. Comic strips, then books, then graphic novels as well. Hollywood, baseball, McDonalds, the list goes on. Ok, its late, I’ve been up since 5:30 today, busted my ass at work then went to a 4 hour typography class. McDonalds may not be something to be proud of, but it came to mind.

Don’t fool yourself that it is better than any other, however. It may be more appealing, certainly, but not better. As great as any culture is, you also have to look at its failings. Many “advanced” civilizations have come and gone. Indus Valley, Mesopotamia, Rome, Egypt, etc. If you look at it from a longevity standpoint, Chinese and Hindu cultures (moreso Hindu) have been around since before the word culture even existed. In fact, the latin derivitive probably goes back to the Phonecians.

There still exists in the world cultures we would consider primative. There are tribes in the Rainforest who live in total harmony with their environment. I don’t have any statistics, and probably no one will, about their longevity, lifespan and history wise about them. But I’ll be willing to bet that if you comapred their biggest problems to ours, they will have much less.

Humans have not evolved, socially, for decades.

[DeV]

:clap:

Any European country that made a colonization effort could have done a better job, but if Vietnamese culture is so grand, wouldn't it be on the same level as a European country?

- Arkans

[Hulkein]

Rather than comparing America with Rome, why not compare America or Rome with a culture that condones rape or murder?

You can continue to ignore the fact that there are some cultures that achieve nothing but misery by comparing the greatest civilizations of all time with eachother and declaring they are both great if you really need to, but you're ignoring a lot of worlds past and present cultures in doing so.

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by Hulkein]

Hulkein has a point. We can sit around and throw advanced cultures at each other or we can look at the real point. Some are better than others.

- Arkans

[longshot]

There are several issues that really guide this...

1. Respect for human rights.

Is there a way to "rank" relative human rights across cultural boundaries? Are human rights absolute?

2. Is wealth/advancement a product of "culture"?

Can we point to advancements, and use them as evidence of superiority to cultures that lack such things?

3. Does history have any weight?

As a country, America is pretty young. Is this a negative?

So, depending on how you set the parameters up, the answers change.

Yes, one can be superior under certain circumstances. While there are also some cultures that it would seem really hard to rank anywhere as "better", conditions exist where they would come out on top.

There are no absolutes in this.

[Back]

Arkans,

I’ll maintain thats its a matter of preference and nothing more. You asked, theres my view.

I admit to favoring American culture before any others. Its what I am most comfortable with, take pride in, and want to contribute to. But my list of great cultures to emulate is long, and it spans the largest with the smallest. The best of all, if you want to get down to it.

As for Hulk’s post, I have no fucking clue what he is trying to say so I just can’t respond. Rape and murder still exist in America and happened in Rome and probably most larger cultures. I’ll be willing to bet they don’t happen with the frequency in smaller tribal cultures.

[SpunGirl]

I think you're right, longshot. However, I disagree that aspects of American culture are really young. It wasn't always called the USA, but there were people here before the Europeans showed up and started setting up camp. Those people have an extremely rich cultural history.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not some bleeding heart Native American Rights activist, I just think it's important that people recognize that America didn't suddenly spring to life when the Europeans showed up.

-K

[Edaarin]

I lied, I'm not going to sleep.

Anyway, it's my contention that there is no comparison between Vietnamese culture and American culture. It isn't a bash on America, it's just a matter of Vietnam having a thousand plus years of history, culture, and tradition.

Maybe we have different definitions of culture. If by culture you mean something like standard of living, by all means America is better.

[Hulkein]

Notice the 'condoned' part, Backlash.

America doesn't raise it's children in a culture where raping women is a ritual right.

Is that hard to grasp? You must be fucked up tonite.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
However, I disagree that aspects of American culture are really young. It wasn't always called the USA, but there were people here before the Europeans showed up and started setting up camp.

The problem with that is this: what is commonly thought of and referred to as "American culture' is responsible for the near genocide of the various American Indian ones. Certainly, they had very rich cultures. But little of it has influenced the European mold that invaded the 'New World'.

Raven

[SpunGirl]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by SpunGirl
However, I disagree that aspects of American culture are really young. It wasn't always called the USA, but there were people here before the Europeans showed up and started setting up camp.

The problem with that is this: what is commonly thought of and referred to as "American culture' is responsible for the near genocide of the various American Indian ones. Certainly, they had very rich cultures. But little of it has influenced the European mold that invaded the 'New World'.

Raven

I see American culture as a complete mishmash of the cultures of everyone that makes up this country. Yes, the Native Americans were treated unfairly, no, the things that happened to them should not have.

But they didn't "have" very rich cultures - they still do. Many members of said cultures work very hard to keep a lot of those traditions alive. And if you think Native American culture hasn't influenced lifestyles and aesthetic influences for European decendants, you haven't spent enough time in the Southwest!

-K

[Back]

Originally posted by Hulkein
Notice the 'condoned' part, Backlash.

America doesn't raise it's children in a culture where raping women is a ritual right.

Is that hard to grasp? You must be fucked up tonite.

As fucked up as I can get, I’ll never reach your level. So, please spell out your point for me in simple terms.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
But they didn't "have" very rich cultures - they still do. Many members of said cultures work very hard to keep a lot of those traditions alive. And if you think Native American culture hasn't influenced lifestyles and aesthetic influences for European decendants, you haven't spent enough time in the Southwest!

I stand corrected. They - the nations still in existence - do indeed still have very rich cultures that they struggle to keep alive. And you're also correct... I haven't spent any time in the American southwest.

Raven

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Backlash
As fucked up as I can get, I’ll never reach your level. So, please spell out your point for me in simple terms.

........

Ok, we'll use rape as the example since that has been my point thus far.

Country/Culture A - Has laws against rape. The ratio of those committing rape to those who don't is infinitesimal.

Country/Culture B - Has no laws against rape. It is COMMON practice to rape women as a cultural RIGHT.

Now you are telling me there is no difference here?

Just because something happens in a country does not make it part of its culture.

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by Hulkein]

[Back]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
:clap:

:bow:

[Back]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by Backlash
As fucked up as I can get, I’ll never reach your level. So, please spell out your point for me in simple terms.

........

Ok, we'll use rape as the example since that has been my point thus far.

Country/Culture A - Has laws against rape. The ratio of those committing rape to those who don't is infinitesimal.

Country/Culture B - Has no laws against rape. It is COMMON practice to rape women as a cultural RIGHT.

Now you are telling me there is no difference here?

Just because something happens in a country does not make it part of its culture.

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by Hulkein]

To address the last line, yes, yes it certainly does. You have to accept all actions of a culture as a whole to define that culture. As sucky as it is.

In other words, in simple terms, yeah, America is great, but in no way perfect as the failings still exist. And that goes for any culture.

Part of my point was, every culture has a failing, and you can’t judge one culture as better than the next based soley on the good things. While we all strive to achive the best of all cultures, until we eliminate the bad, none is best.

Now I have deciphered your point, that if one culture dies and one succeeds longer, is one better than the other? From a biological standpoint, this could be considered true, if it weren’t for the fact that all cultures fall under the class of homosapien.

I guess my view on it all is culture not only represents a single group, but as an intricacy of the human race as a whole. In other words, I’d rather define culture as being specific to the human race as a whole, rather than select groups.

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by Backlash]

[HarmNone]

Some cultures have laws against applying interest to loaned money. They call it usury.

In the United States, it is perfectly acceptable for people to pay twice the value of their home over a period of thirty years, with the vast majority of the interest collected in the first few years of the loan. To those countries which consider usury a crime, this is tantamount to theft.

[Hulkein]

I'm not even trying to say America has a better culture than everyone in the world ever.

I'm just saying it seems sort of Tee-Ball 'IT WAS A TIE' mentality when it really is kind of ridiculous in my view to claim every culture of all time was equal.

[Back]

Originally posted by Hulkein
I'm not even trying to say America has a better culture than everyone in the world ever.

I'm just saying it seems sort of Tee-Ball 'IT WAS A TIE' mentality when it really is kind of ridiculous in my view to claim every culture of all time was equal.

I guess its all a matter of how you define culture. A totality, or specific. Back to Longshot, the parameters may dictate the answer. In my view, the question applies to the human race as a whole. In other views, it gets more specfic.

In the specificity, I can see the argument. However, my own personal view is of the whole. Until we are all one civilization, with the least failings, then you can say one civilization is best.

Its always better to end in a tie than a loss. The glass is half full and yadda yadda. Damn, theres nothing you can say an empty glass thats positive, can you? Unless theres another beer around here somewhere... :2beers:

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by Backlash]

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Arkans
Some African cultures, for instance, do not. Take a look at all the savage fighting there.

Unlike the pleasantries in Iraq

You are such a fucking racist its scary

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Country/Culture B - Has no laws against rape. It is COMMON practice to rape women as a cultural RIGHT.


Can you name a country where this is the case?

[Hulkein]

It's cultures, not countries.

There are plenty of African tribes where this happens all of the time.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Hulkein
It's cultures, not countries.

There are plenty of African tribes where this happens all of the time.

OK, can you give me details so I can see that this is based on some intellectual knowledge rather than racist stereotypes?

How am I rascist again? Looks like someone is unable to debate a thing such as this without getting offended.

- Arkans

[Tsa`ah]

I deserve the headache for not reading the thread before grew to 4 pages.

You're confusing culture with government and how that government is perceived.
This is really no surprise when one considers that the average US citizen is oblivious to anything that happens outside a 100 mile radius unless it's on the idiot box.

Now if you want to make culture synonymous with government and social policies in this debate we can. I'll point out both.


Originally posted by Arkans
Generally though, American and European culture appear to promote the welfare of people in general and the minority. Some African cultures, for instance, do not. Take a look at all the savage fighting there. Take a look at horrible conditions in say, Vietnam. Wouldn't that put our culture ahead of theirs?

This is a generalization. We do not promote the welfare of others in this nation.

Our elderly are shoved into homes that tend to be abusive with substandard care and forgotten. Unless of course they have money

Our veterans receive substandard health care and are no better off than the elderly unless of course they have money.

The children of the working poor and poor receive sub standard to no health care, poor education, and sub standard living conditions. Many are malnourished and live in a very hazardous environment.

Those that can afford voluntary education may participate at will. Those that can't must accept hand outs and go through so much bureaucracy just to attend college.

Now you mention Viet Nam and Africa in the above statement.

The interesting thing in comparing cultures is the "family" aspect. While we do take care of our own in this country, we don't do it to the same level as most cultures do. Other cultures don't ship off the elderly, nor do they hesitate over sacrifices for the family. Children often work out of necessity, parents work multiple jobs, and often this is to provide better futures for their children.

This does happen in the US, but per capita, not on the same scale.

Seems to me the "American" culture isn't that stellar.


Originally posted by Arkans
I think culture does have to do with technology and every type of advancement. That is part of our value systems and that goes hand in hand with culture.

To the materialistic, sure. Thankfully this isn't the majority.


Originally posted by Arkans
Won't make it true if they say it about us.


Just as it doesn't make a statement offered up by you any more valid.

[Nieninque]

I'm not offended. Just sickened at how people dress up racism.

Comments about the "savage" fighting are value laden. It also suggests that Africans are funny little people wearing grass skirts with bones through their noses.

Comments such as "Anyway, I personally believe so, simply because the people of Europe and North America are so much more advanced than those in the Far East (excluding Japan, but they are Americanized) and those found in Africa. " are simplistic and based upon at the least nationalistic and at the worst racist ideas about how life should be lived.

As someone has pointed out, technologically advanced the 'west' maybe. Culturally advanced? Probably not. Culturally different, yes. That would depend on your preferences, but to say that one is advanced above the other? Thats stupid.

Culture and government go hand in hand. When you have local warring tribes in Africa that have the belief system of "might makes right", then you're going to have a governing body that displays these attritbutes. This type of mentality hurts a nation as well as how it promotes the welfare of people. For instance, a warring tribe won't even give people the option of social security, Pell Grants, or the plethora of other options available to all Americans. They'll have the mentality of "You're going to live under our regim and if you don't like you, you're going to get nailed by an AK-47".

Now, saying that we don't care about the poor or the elderly, I think is a misleading statement. Maybe we don't do enough currently, but notice how the vast majority of Americans (yourself included) and societies in Europe *DO* care and are trying to make improvements. You'll be hard pressed to find this on a scale in an African tribal gorvnment.

Materliasm is part of the whole culture debate as well. It's not always about what type of car you drive or how big your house is, but what is possible for the people? Can they achieve the advancement that First World countries achieve? Yes, we all have that possibility here, but in other countries? Heck no! Like I said, why is that? It's a skewed values and belief system as well as a culture that just doesn't come out ahead.

- Arkans

[Tsa`ah]

Caring and doing are two seperate things.

Take a trip to any nation that has socialized/subsidized housing and medicine. Canada isn't that far away.

The "American" culture is built around the dollar. If you have it your gold, if you don't ... fuck off.

Who mentioned little people with grass skirts? Just you.

You wouldn't call the fighting in Sierra Leone savage? You wouldn't call the warlord battles in Somalia savage? How about the rebellion in Congo and Uganda? It's fact, not rascism. It's rather sad that people need to fall back on calling other rascists, when nothing of the sort is being said.

As for the countries and tribes that DO have people in grass skirts, why? Why can't they advance themselves to a higher standard of living and knowledge? Why can't they bring themselves up and do something really amazing in the world as other countries and people have?

Also, Neininque, I'm sorry that you find nationalism such a horrible thing. I never knew it was a bad thing to be proud of your country. I never knew it was a bad thing to support your country as well. Nationalism to the extreme can be bad, but most things require moderation, I'm sure you're smart enough to realize that.

- Arkans

Yet, here in America, we still don't go and blow someone that is poor away with an AK-47, just because they vote (another thing that Europeans and Westerners are doing) for a President/Governor/whoever that supports a lot of social programs. We debate, sure, but not kill. I wish I could say the same for other governments.

- Arkans

[Sean]

I fail to see how any cultures are really comparable to say which is better. In my mind while you may not agree with the cultural differences that occur in other places they work for them and there really isn't a comparison.

On another note we live here in the united states, or otherwise for some members of the boards. However I don't feel America actually has any real cultural identity of its own. When I step outside I see people of Indian culture, European culture, African culture, etc. What exactly is American culture? It seems to me reading this thread that American culture is being defined as a "good" qualitity of life. Isn't that rather subjective? Just because you wouldn't trade your situations for someone elses doesn't mean that they have a problem or dislike the life they live no matter how modest it is.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Arkans
Culture and government go hand in hand. When you have local warring tribes in Africa that have the belief system of "might makes right", Such as with the war in Iraq?
then you're going to have a governing body that displays these attritbutes. This type of mentality hurts a nation as well as how it promotes the welfare of people. For instance, a warring tribe won't even give people the option of social security, Pell Grants, or the plethora of other options available to all Americans. Certain European cultures have better examples of welfare state than the US. Does that mean they are more culturally advanced?
They'll have the mentality of "You're going to live under our regim and if you don't like you, you're going to get nailed by an AK-47".

Now, saying that we don't care about the poor or the elderly, I think is a misleading statement. Maybe we don't do enough currently, but notice how the vast majority of Americans (yourself included) and societies in Europe *DO* care and are trying to make improvements. You'll be hard pressed to find this on a scale in an African tribal gorvnment.

I find this strange coming from someone who is a self proclamied right-winger.
You think culture should be set by Government? What about the families that look after their members despite the raging wars going on? What about Governments that dont feel it is their right to interfere with how families look after their own?


Materliasm is part of the whole culture debate as well. It's not always about what type of car you drive or how big your house is, but what is possible for the people? Can they achieve the advancement that First World countries achieve? Yes, we all have that possibility here, but in other countries? Heck no! Like I said, why is that? It's a skewed values and belief system as well as a culture that just doesn't come out ahead.

- Arkans such as what? What are the skewed values and beliefs that you feel Africans and Asians hold, rather than the ones the Americans Europeans and Japanese hold?

[Tsa`ah]

Nope, we don't do the political killing here. We ignore starvation and hazardous living environments.

We don't rehabilitate criminals and drug addicts; we shove them into over crowded prisons to produce better criminals.

We don't ignore education; we just pass acts that have no funding.

We don't ensure poor working parents will be able to take care of their families, we just enable them to produce large amounts of uncollectible debt, repossess everything they own, kick them out of their home, but not before we shut off all of their utilities and further promote the malnourishment of their children.

I'm sorry, but you live in lala land or are too blinded by being the UBER patriot to accept the faults of this nation. We're far far behind when it comes to social evolution and humanitarianism.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Arkans
Who mentioned little people with grass skirts? Just you.

You wouldn't call the fighting in Sierra Leone savage? You wouldn't call the warlord battles in Somalia savage? How about the rebellion in Congo and Uganda?

And the fighting in Iraq is a stroll in the park...:rolleyes:
It's fact, not rascism. It's rather sad that people need to fall back on calling other rascists, when nothing of the sort is being said.
American and European culture is so much better and more advanced than Black people's cultures.
/racism.


As for the countries and tribes that DO have people in grass skirts, why? Why can't they advance themselves to a higher standard of living and knowledge? Why can't they bring themselves up and do something really amazing in the world as other countries and people have?


I find it amazing that people can live in harmony with their environments. That they can live in the same ecosystems that they have lived for thousands of years, free from western influence and the power of money. That is an achievement. Why is it that the western cultures are slaves to the power of money? We lose on that one.

Also, Neininque, I'm sorry that you find nationalism such a horrible thing. I never knew it was a bad thing to be proud of your country. I never knew it was a bad thing to support your country as well. Nationalism to the extreme can be bad, but most things require moderation, I'm sure you're smart enough to realize that.

- Arkans Nationalism at a football match is good. Nationalism in a debate about culture is generally not so good.

Saying "My culture is the best and the rest of them are bad" is nothing short of jingoism. Dress it up how you like.

[Warriorbird]

You're seeing the line I was mentioning. Someone being hopelessly ethnocentric discounts cultural values other than his own or own adopted one (sort've ironic hearing Arkans ever talk about France after hearing his story, mind). This comes off as racist, stupid, hopelessly nationalist, or all three.

In turn, there's other cultures that do a lot of stupid crap. I'm not going to deny that and fall into the trap of a lot of less aware liberal types.

A line has to be drawn.

I think we live in an incredible country. Our achievements put many other countries with much longer histories completely to shame. The heights we've risen to are extreme. At the same time, the fact that we practiced slavery for much of our history and the sheer amount of death America has caused in our relatively short period of time show that we're far from perfect.

Similar juxtapositions could be made about many other cultures.

People are human. I always found the ethnographies of Americans interesting. In anthropology, people usually aren't allowed to examine their own people.

The war in Iraq is a bad point to use at best. Considering how up for debate that is. I won't go into it, just simply because this isn't a discussion about the war in Iraq, but I will say it's not even close to comparable to the civil war in Sierra Leone.

I still don't see how it is rascist that saying European and Western Culture is superior to African culture. Tell me then, why is such a huge continent with so many natural resources in the horrible state that it is now? They have the man power, they have resources, they have the technology.

I don't think culture should be set by the government, I think government is just another byproduct of a said culture.

I think comparing European and American cultures has already been stated that it is not part of this debate. We are comparing something completely different.

Skewed value systems? How about the mass murder of civilians? How about hungry warlords stealing food, then gunning down the minority that protests. How about opressive dictators that completely keep a country backwards? The thing is, these things needed some sort of acceptance by the general populace to happen. Whether it was a lack of value in education, political awareness, care for the people, or anything. It still happened.

Yet the tribes that live in the woods might love the "might makes right" theory and decide to rape some women, as Hulkein stated. I think that's a little worse than "being a slave to money".

- Arkans

[Nakiro]

I am a xenocentric.

I'll let you all figure out what that means.

[Nakiro]

Also interesting to note, for those of you who voted Option number 1, here's a question for you.

Is the culture of 1950's Montgomery Alabama equal to the culture of current day Alabama?

If not, why do we claim racism is wrong, and why do we not allow people whom have racists views to freely express them? Is not their expression in some way an extension of their culture?

[Tsa`ah]

No one is discrediting your examples at all Arakans. You keep pointing to the extremists actions taken by factions in other nations yet ignore a nation that sits directly north of us. You ignore the "culture" in your examples of extremism for the sake of the extremist act. You generalize and that is undermining your very argument.

It doesn't surprise me that you fail to see how your comments are racists in nature.

There have been other historical figures that shared the same view point. Care to name a few?

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by Tsa`ah]

I think that culture of 1950's Alabama is inferior to the current one. Cultures are evolving (and devolving) things! I think it's not contest.

I think both sides have been throwing around extremist viewpoints, but let's get something more moderate then.

Compare the life-style, education, values of a German farmer to the same of say.. a Ugandian farmer.

Edited to add: I'd hope that every leader, good or bad, felt that his nation was the best out there.

- Arkans



[Edited on 10-15-2004 by Arkans]

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
It doesn't surprise me that your fail to see how your comments are racists in nature.


Outside the TOS, why do you care?

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Arkans
The war in Iraq is a bad point to use at best. Considering how up for debate that is. I won't go into it, just simply because this isn't a discussion about the war in Iraq, but I will say it's not even close to comparable to the civil war in Sierra Leone.It's directly related to your statement about how African cultures subscribe to the "might is right" way of thought. The war in Iraq is a superb example of the very same thing.


I still don't see how it is rascist that saying European and Western Culture is superior to African culture. I believe you when you say you dont see it. I disagree with you when you say it isnt.
Tell me then, why is such a huge continent with so many natural resources in the horrible state that it is now?

That is a little difficult to answer given the fact that there are many countries in the continent of Africa which, despite your assertions, are in various states (horrible or otherwise). Those that are in a terrible state are stuggling with (often currupt) leaders (Governments or otherwise), struggling to pay back huge debts to the US and the Europeans and having to deal with famine and drought etc. Obviously there is a bit more to it than that, but there it is in a nutshell.


They have the man power, they have resources, they have the technology.

I don't think culture should be set by the government, I think government is just another byproduct of a said culture.
Not at all. Look at Mark Thatcher and his mates and their attempted coup in some African country whose name I forget. Hardly a byproduct of the culture there when a bunch of Europeans try and oust the Government. People can come into power in many ways. It is just not true that Governments are products of culture Look at the Taliban and the Mujahadeen (sp?). They were the other way around

I think comparing European and American cultures has already been stated that it is not part of this debate. We are comparing something completely different.
You are saying which culture is better and placing American culture as the best. Why not compare your American culture with the European cultures? I dont understand how you can compare cultures but say "but we are not going to compare these two against each other, only with those ones over there." Sounds like a skewed and (dare I say) racist argument you are presenting.

Skewed value systems? How about the mass murder of civilians? How about hungry warlords stealing food, then gunning down the minority that protests. How about opressive dictators that completely keep a country backwards?Terrible things they are. Responsibility of the warlords and corrupt governments that perpetuate the things you speak of.
The thing is, these things needed some sort of acceptance by the general populace to happen. Whether it was a lack of value in education, political awareness, care for the people, or anything. It still happened.


Think back to your arguments about how to deal with terrorists. Send pieces of their relatives back to them, wasnt it? I believe you were talking of how this would keep people toeing the line?

I think you are really stretching your argument to show that corrupt Governments equate to poor culture.


Yet the tribes that live in the woods might love the "might makes right" theory and decide to rape some women, as Hulkein stated. I think that's a little worse than "being a slave to money".


He hasnt stated anything yet other than another racist stereotype (i.e. the aggressive sexualisation of Black men). He has yet to back that up with any evidence so as of yet, I am not aware of any culture that deems rape of women acceptable.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Nakiro

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
It doesn't surprise me that your fail to see how your comments are racists in nature.


Outside the TOS, why do you care?

Why not participate in the debate or shut the fuck up and make me a chalupa?

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Nakiro

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
It doesn't surprise me that your fail to see how your comments are racists in nature.


Outside the TOS, why do you care?

Why dont you care about racism is more to the point.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Originally posted by Nakiro

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
It doesn't surprise me that your fail to see how your comments are racists in nature.


Outside the TOS, why do you care?

Why not participate in the debate or shut the fuck up and make me a chalupa?

God you are one sorry mother fucker.

It was an honest question you pompus ass.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Nakiro
It was an honest question you pompus ass.

It was an incredibly stupid question.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Nakiro
It was an honest question you pompus ass.

It was an incredibly stupid question.

Perhaps you can explain to me why you think so.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Nakiro

God you are one sorry mother fucker.

It was an honest question you pompus ass.

It was an honest suggestion. I can't be held accountable for your ignorance.

[Nieninque]

Because I think everyone should be concerned about people holding racist views. Asking someone why they care about someone else being unable to see that what they had said was racist, seems like a redundant question. Why do you think they care? It's fucking obvious isnt it?

When you also add into the equation the fact that the person you are asking is likely to have experienced racism (either directly or indirectly) at some point in their life, it becomes an even more stupid question.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Originally posted by Nakiro

God you are one sorry mother fucker.

It was an honest question you pompus ass.

It was an honest suggestion. I can't be held accountable for your ignorance.

How is there any tone of ignorance in my question?

Its fairly simple. I'm asking you why you are offended by a persons personal beliefs (at least, when they are what you consider racists).

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Nieninque
Because I think everyone should be concerned about people holding racist views. Asking someone why they care about someone else being unable to see that what they had said was racist, seems like a redundant question. Why do you think they care? It's fucking obvious isnt it?

When you also add into the equation the fact that the person you are asking is likely to have experienced racism (either directly or indirectly) at some point in their life, it becomes an even more stupid question.

If culture involves a societies values and belief systems, why do you say then that all cultures are equal, but all the values and beliefs of individuals are not equal?

Its okay to believe a society that entones racism is equal to your own society, but that a person who entones racists beliefs is somehow worse than you?

I find that hypocritical.

[Tsa`ah]

You just pointed out the ignorance I perceive in you.

I never even hinted at offence, nor was I offended in any fashion. You made an asinine assumption and jumped into the shit before putting on your boots.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
You just pointed out the ignorance I perceive in you.

I never even hinted at offence, nor was I offended in any fashion. You made an asinine assumption and jumped into the shit before putting on your boots.

I posed an honest question. You gave me an asinine reply.

I assumed the worst. Its hard not to make assumptions when the only conversation you can get out of someone is them telling you to shut the fuck up and go make them a chalupa.

Or do you disagree with that too?

[Nakiro]

Also, elaborate on the ignorance you see in me, either via U2U or public posting, whichever you believe is more approperiate.

[Tsa`ah]

http://forum.gsplayers.com/viewthread.php?tid=9584&page=4

There's one example.

Your assumption is the other. Continued debate along this line would be a third.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Nakiro

If culture involves a societies values and belief systems, why do you say then that all cultures are equal, but all the values and beliefs of individuals are not equal?

WTF are you talking about? I believe that trying to set up a hierarchy of the best cultures all the way down to the worst cultures is a stupid pasttime, entrenched in the view that "our is best" or otherwise known as racism/jingoism/nationalism. People are entitled to their own views, but that doesnt mean they are entitled to air those views without having them challenged. If someone airs views which impact on the life expectancy of someone else, they need to expect that they will have those views challenged.


Its okay to believe a society that entones racism is equal to your own society, but that a person who entones racists beliefs is somehow worse than you?
I find that hypocritical.

I find your arguments stupid.
I never said I was better than anyone.
I believe racism in any shape or form is wrong.
If I hear someone making racist statements, I will challenge them. That does not involve any statements about who is best, just that what someone has said is wrong.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
http://forum.gsplayers.com/viewthread.php?tid=9584&page=4

There's one example.

Your assumption is the other. Continued debate along this line would be a third.

In this thread, where did I make an assumption (other than an implied "why", in which you could have easily responded "i don't")?

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Nieninque

WTF are you talking about? I believe that trying to set up a hierarchy of the best cultures all the way down to the worst cultures is a stupid pasttime, entrenched in the view that "our is best" or otherwise known as racism/jingoism/nationalism. People are entitled to their own views, but that doesnt mean they are entitled to air those views without having them challenged. If someone airs views which impact on the life expectancy of someone else, they need to expect that they will have those views challenged.


I never said I was better than anyone.
I believe racism in any shape or form is wrong.
If I hear someone making racist statements, I will challenge them. That does not involve any statements about who is best, just that what someone has said is wrong.

I've no plans on answering the question of which culture is the best, but rather the question of if all cultures are equal.

My answer to that question is no.

By believing someone is wrong (on a matter of personal belief), you inheriantly believe you are better than them.

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by Nakiro]

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Nakiro
I've no plans on answering the question of which culture is the best, but rather the question of if all cultures are equal.

My answer to that question is no.


My question to you then, would be what are you using to measure the differences in cultures?


By believing someone is wrong (on a matter of personal belief), you inheriantly believe you are better than them.

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by Nakiro]

Dont talk shit.
I believe everyone is wrong about many things. Does that make me better than them? No. It means on some things I am better informed than them and on some things they are better informed than me.

No question of superiority or inferiority. I disagree on some things even with my best friends. I can do that without Lording it up over them. I pity you, that you cant.

[Betheny]

Hungarian girls rule.

Ask anyone.

<---- Hungarian/Scot

[DeV]

Culture and government go hand in hand. When you have local warring tribes in Africa that have the belief system of "might makes right", then you're going to have a governing body that displays these attritbutes.
You keep going back to Africa when you attempt to portray certain cultures in an even worse light than others. We can look at the warring tribes and we can also look at what happened in Bosnia or what is happening in Isreal with the Palestines. Disgusting brutality happens in many places in this world. We should eloborate on all of it if you are judging culture based on this as one of your primary examples.


This type of mentality hurts a nation as well as how it promotes the welfare of people.
Yes, like China. For example which is a nation rich in culture yet infanticide is still being practiced regularly. Millions of baby girls still not accounted for and considered missing because of the savage acts that still take place there, INCLUDING partial-birth abortions.


For instance, a warring tribe won't even give people the option of social security, Pell Grants, or the plethora of other options available to all Americans.
This statement is ridiculous as these benefits are something they simply cannot offer, at least not now.



Now, saying that we don't care about the poor or the elderly, I think is a misleading statement.
It's an obviously factual statement if you look at the majority of the current condition for seniors in this country.


Maybe we don't do enough currently, but notice how the vast majority of Americans (yourself included) and societies in Europe *DO* care and are trying to make improvements.
Because we can and we have the resources. How could you expect a third-world country to compete with honoring the needs of their citizens on a level a country like the United States can.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Nakiro
I've no plans on answering the question of which culture is the best, but rather the question of if all cultures are equal.

My answer to that question is no.


My question to you then, would be what are you using to measure the differences in cultures?


Good question!

I tend to stick with the things that can be measured (some more than others), like level of income among the average household family, the ability to safely express language both verbally and non verbally in an open environment, the extent to which a government represents the majority iterest of its constitutents, the death rate of children in childbirth, the present level of techonology actively used and developed in a country, and the tolerance (not necessarily acceptance) of outside beliefs, ideas, or customs.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Nakiro
Good question!

I tend to stick with the things that can be measured (some more than others), like level of income among the average household family, the ability to safely express language both verbally and non verbally in an open environment, the extent to which a government represents the majority iterest of its constitutents, the death rate of children in childbirth, the present level of techonology actively used and developed in a country, and the tolerance (not necessarily acceptance) of outside beliefs, ideas, or customs.

Nice eurocentric (or the American equivalent) values.
Hardly a way of measuring how positive a person or group of people's life is.

[DeV]

You leave out far too many cultures who've made significant contributions to our present way of life by that definition.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
You leave out far too many cultures who've made significant contributions to our present way of life by that definition.

True, it is a very incomplete definition.

[Nieninque]

But it doesnt give indication of "advanced" cultures, just countries that have advanced towards an American culture.
I see that as a big difference.

[Nakiro]

Also, DEV, perhaps if you gave a few examples we could develop a more complete defiintion?

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Nieninque
But it doesnt give indication of "advanced" cultures, just countries that have advanced towards an American culture.
I see that as a big difference.

This I tend to disagree with. At the very least it measures an advancement in technological, medical, and economic grounds.

These things, in general, tend to provide everyone in the society with a more enjoyable standard of living and a more positive life.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Nakiro
Also, DEV, perhaps if you gave a few examples we could develop a more complete defiintion? Examples of cultural contributions. :?: There is no complete when it comes to defining culture, in my opinion, Nakiro.

Try the Egyptian culture as well as the Native Americans contributions.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold

Originally posted by Nakiro
Also, DEV, perhaps if you gave a few examples we could develop a more complete defiintion? Examples of cultural contributions. :?: There is no complete when it comes to defining culture, in my opinion, Nakiro.

Try the Egyptian culture as well as the Native Americans contributions.

Egyptians? What comes to mind is the mathamatical advancements they gave us from their archiecture.

Honestly, I can't think of anything the Inidians gave us at this moment.

Thanksgiving? Not sure.

[Nakiro]

Oh yes, mais.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Nakiro

This I tend to disagree with. At the very least it measures an advancement in technological, medical, and economic grounds.

These things, in general, tend to provide everyone in the society with a more enjoyable standard of living and a more positive life.

According to you.

What about the Polish farmer with a smallholding where he and his family grow the things they need to exist. Other things they need they trade with neighbours or locally with the things they have produced that are in excess of their own needs?

What about Kibbutzim where they collectively undertake tasks (including caring for family members) as a comunity for the good of the community?

What about cultures where they live in harmony with their environment in "primitive" conditions without technology and formal education etc?

What about Buddhist monks who seek isolation from technology and who become hermits in persuit of their ideal culture?

According to your definition and the definition used more widely in our culture, all of these are poor people who are living in deprived conditions. I dont agree.
Would I choose to live like that? Probably not, but I admire the fact that they do and wholly respect the values their cultures promote. I would say, looking at the poverty and deprivation in our so-called advanced cultures, that we are seriously lacking in many ways.

[DeV]

Nakiro, I'm not a history professor but it wouldn't hurt for you to seek one out at your University and see if they can teach you something worthwhile about cultural contributions across history. No offense but I'm not up for educating a grown man.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by NakiroThis I tend to disagree with. At the very least it measures an advancement in technological, medical, and economic grounds.

These things, in general, tend to provide everyone in the society with a more enjoyable standard of living and a more positive life.

Blinkered and idealist, much?

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Originally posted by Nakiro

God you are one sorry mother fucker.

It was an honest question you pompus ass.

It was an honest suggestion. I can't be held accountable for your ignorance.

Here's another honest suggestion.

Go fuck yourself.

[Myshel]

What are Americans but the culminations of all cultures? Do we not have representatives of all cultures in the way we worship, eat, dress, listen to music and educate our young? Yes, every time you listen to the downbeat of a drum or pick a Thai restaurant for dinner you are embracing Americana. Our political system, our architecture, our languages bespeak the influence of the world. We have chosen the best the world has to offer and made it our own.

[Tsa`ah]

Wow, took you what ... two hours to dig that back up?

Now get me that chalupa bitch.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Nakiro

This I tend to disagree with. At the very least it measures an advancement in technological, medical, and economic grounds.

These things, in general, tend to provide everyone in the society with a more enjoyable standard of living and a more positive life.

According to you.

What about the Polish farmer with a smallholding where he and his family grow the things they need to exist. Other things they need they trade with neighbours or locally with the things they have produced that are in excess of their own needs?

What about Kibbutzim where they collectively undertake tasks (including caring for family members) as a comunity for the good of the community?

What about cultures where they live in harmony with their environment in "primitive" conditions without technology and formal education etc?

What about Buddhist monks who seek isolation from technology and who become hermits in persuit of their ideal culture?

According to your definition and the definition used more widely in our culture, all of these are poor people who are living in deprived conditions. I dont agree.
Would I choose to live like that? Probably not, but I admire the fact that they do and wholly respect the values their cultures promote. I would say, looking at the poverty and deprivation in our so-called advanced cultures, that we are seriously lacking in many ways.

People have a physical needs that must be meet. I believe its refered to as the hierarchy of needs.

My examples were merely trying to specify the aspects of a society that best illustrate how well a persons basic needs are eing met.

No monk can reach his or her self actualization they live a life of fear and worries constantly about where its next meal will come from.

But there are still many things to learn from the various other cultures you mentioned as well.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Myshel
What are Americans but the culminations of all cultures? Do we not have representatives of all cultures in the way we worship, eat, dress, listen to music and educate our young? Yes, every time you listen to the downbeat of a drum or pick a Thai restaurant for dinner you are embracing Americana. Our political system, our architecture, our languages bespeak the influence of the world. We have chosen the best the world has to offer and made it our own.

An American that cannot think of one contribution to the American way of life by the Native Americans, is too thick to realise all this.

Sometimes I dispair.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by NakiroThis I tend to disagree with. At the very least it measures an advancement in technological, medical, and economic grounds.

These things, in general, tend to provide everyone in the society with a more enjoyable standard of living and a more positive life.

Blinkered and idealist, much?

Idealists would be saying that they always provide more for everyone.

Realistically, we know that they generally tend to do so, as I stated.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Wow, took you what ... two hours to dig that back up?

Now get me that chalupa bitch.

Once again, go fuck yourself.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Nakiro
No monk can reach his or her self actualization they live a life of fear and worries constantly about where its next meal will come from.
What does that mean?

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold

Originally posted by Nakiro
No monk can reach his or her self actualization they live a life of fear and worries constantly about where its next meal will come from.
What does that mean?

It means a person has basic needs that must be met before they can meet other higher level needs.

It looks something like this.

[Wezas]

We crackers aren't really better at anything.

We had golf for a while.

Fucking Tiger Woods.

At least we still have hockey...

[Betheny]

Tiger Woods married a white woman.

We win again.

Note this post is for humor, I'm not racist.

Edited to add: We still have NASCAR!!!!!

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by Maimara]

[Tsa`ah]

And Taco Bell.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by NakiroPeople have a physical needs that must be meet. I believe its refered to as the hierarchy of needs.

It's a psychological theory written by Maslow, I think you will find. Theory being the operative word. there are some things that are factual within it, however there is no one psycholigical theory that is wholeheartedly and universally accepted.

It is worth mentioning that many psychological theories are euro-centric and critiqued because of that. You might want to consider that before you offer phrases from psychological theories to prove your point.



My examples were merely trying to specify the aspects of a society that best illustrate how well a persons basic needs are eing met.


Remember a little while back you were saying how you thought I was saying if I think someone else is wrong about something, then I am also saying I am better than them?

That is exactly what you are doing.

"This is how my culture is, and this is how my culture works, so if another culture attempt to do things in different ways, then they are not as good as my culture."

Pitiful.



No monk can reach his or her self actualization they live a life of fear and worries constantly about where its next meal will come from.


No American will reach their self actualisation because they are constanly worried about their job/kids/income/mortgage/partner/car etc.

What a load of shit.



But there are still many things to learn from the various other cultures you mentioned as well.

Like not to be an arrogant, self important arsehole who thinks he is better than everyone else?

Read on...

[Edited on 15-10-04 by Nieninque]

[Betheny]

:spaz: And CURLING!

[HarmNone]

What I see here is some people basing their idea of a happy life on what they, themselves, define as a happy life. That's understandable. However, everyone doesn't ascribe to the same things when seeking happiness.

In the US, our idea of happiness often involves material wealth. It's not true of everyone, but it is true of quite a few of us. We like our creature comforts...our dishwashers, our garbage disposals, our cell phones. Those things are important to us in our everyday lives.

Such is not the case in all cultures. Some of the happiest times in my memory were spent in Indonesia, where life is much simpler; albeit, in some ways less comfortable. Yet, the people there do not miss what they do not know. They're happy with the closeness of family and their villages. While we might find the way they live their lives to be primitive, they do not think of themselves as such.

Theirs is a rich culture, and a mystical one. While the islands have had their share of hardships and have been, in many ways, raped by the modern industrial world, there is a beauty in the way they live that we do not have, in my opinion. One need not starve, as fruits and vegetables grow easily and are plentiful. The worst one might face is having to climb a tree for that stalk of rambutan, or bananas.

It's all in one's perspective.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Harmnones post

Also worth mentioning that despite the richness of Indonesian life as described by HN, the Indonesian government are or have been bombing the fuck out of the people of East Timor, further emphasising the point that there is more to the culture of a country than the behaviour of the leaders of that country.

[Back]

Originally posted by Arkans
The war in Iraq is a bad point to use at best. Considering how up for debate that is. I won't go into it, just simply because this isn't a discussion about the war in Iraq, but I will say it's not even close to comparable to the civil war in Sierra Leone.

I still don't see how it is rascist that saying European and Western Culture is superior to African culture. Tell me then, why is such a huge continent with so many natural resources in the horrible state that it is now? They have the man power, they have resources, they have the technology.

I don't think culture should be set by the government, I think government is just another byproduct of a said culture.

I think comparing European and American cultures has already been stated that it is not part of this debate. We are comparing something completely different.

Skewed value systems? How about the mass murder of civilians? How about hungry warlords stealing food, then gunning down the minority that protests. How about opressive dictators that completely keep a country backwards? The thing is, these things needed some sort of acceptance by the general populace to happen. Whether it was a lack of value in education, political awareness, care for the people, or anything. It still happened.

Yet the tribes that live in the woods might love the "might makes right" theory and decide to rape some women, as Hulkein stated. I think that's a little worse than "being a slave to money".

- Arkans

The war in Iraq is a perfect example. You can’t disqualify it on grounds of if people argue if it was justified or not. It still is happening.

You also seem to forget that America had a civil war less than 150 years ago. And that was over the issue of slavery in this country.

[Myshel]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Myshel
What are Americans but the culminations of all cultures? Do we not have representatives of all cultures in the way we worship, eat, dress, listen to music and educate our young? Yes, every time you listen to the downbeat of a drum or pick a Thai restaurant for dinner you are embracing Americana. Our political system, our architecture, our languages bespeak the influence of the world. We have chosen the best the world has to offer and made it our own.

An American that cannot think of one contribution to the American way of life by the Native Americans, is too thick to realise all this.

Sometimes I dispair.

, I saw a documentary once (probably Discovery), where they wanted to document Indians day to day life. So he gave representatives of the tribe video camera's and asked them to film their life's as they saw it. When he got the camera's back he was puzzled because in all the film their wasn't one person in it. It was all shots of nature, an eagle soaring, the weather changing, a stream flowing. All very beautiful and spiritual. Their love of the land, its beauty and inhabitants is their legacy.

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by Myshel]

[HarmNone]

Absolutely, Nieninque. Governments are an entirely different animal. They take on a life of their own, and are often not truly indicative of the culture that drives the common people.

Governments are far more worldly than the little fellow with his kue putu cart, going from house to house selling his delicious wares. He's happy. The people who buy and enjoy his product are happy. For the most part, they are not concerned with what's going on in Timor, unless they live there or have relatives who do. Their worlds revolve around that which is close to them.

But why don't they know it though? That's the question. I still believe it's due to a lacking culture.

- Arkans

[Nakiro]

It's a psychological theory written by Maslow, I think you will find. Theory being the operative word. there are some things that are factual within it, however there is no one psycholigical theory that is wholeheartedly and universally accepted.

Of course. But what else am I going to quote that is considered sound judgement?



"This is how my culture is, and this is how my culture works, so if another culture attempt to do things in different ways, then they are not as good as my culture."


I don't find it unfair to say that because a country is better able to provide food, shelter, clothing, and security to its people than another that it is a better country in those respects.

Identifying cultures as being "better" (and that word is obviously so relative) than another is usually not undertaken as a whole one to one comparison.



It is worth mentioning that many psychological theories are euro-centric and critiqued because of that. You might want to consider that before you offer phrases from psychological theories to prove your point.


As far as I can tell, it still holds true to at least the most basic level of needs. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone worrying about their true lot in life when they're scared to death that they will be brutally maimed.



No American will reach their self actualisation because they are constanly worried about their job/kids/income/mortgage/partner/car etc.


The vast majority never reach self actualization, but that doesn't mean that only those that do live in the Tibitan mountain range.

It can be done in America too, despite the fact that we have jobs/kids/income/mortgages/partners/cars/etc.




Like not to be an arrogant, self important arsehole who thinks he is better than everyone else?



Sorry, I just don't see where you're getting all your hostility.

[Nieninque]

Geez

Why would they want to know?

[DeV]

And what does it matter in the second place. They still have their very own deep rooted culture.

It's directly related to your statement about how African cultures subscribe to the "might is right" way of thought. The war in Iraq is a superb example of the very same thing.

I think it as more of a war for survival. They were part on the war on terror, but I really want to stay away from the war and our politics in this thread. There is plent of it around here.



That is a little difficult to answer given the fact that there are many countries in the continent of Africa which, despite your assertions, are in various states (horrible or otherwise). Those that are in a terrible state are stuggling with (often currupt) leaders (Governments or otherwise), struggling to pay back huge debts to the US and the Europeans and having to deal with famine and drought etc. Obviously there is a bit more to it than that, but there it is in a nutshell.

Please name me one country in Africa that is on par with a European country. I really do not think that the reason they are poor is because of the debt, but due to the fact that they did not invest money wisely. Throwing money to make government officials' lives more comfortable does not make a country great. It goes back to the values.


You are saying which culture is better and placing American culture as the best. Why not compare your American culture with the European cultures? I dont understand how you can compare cultures but say "but we are not going to compare these two against each other, only with those ones over there." Sounds like a skewed and (dare I say) racist argument you are presenting.

Because we can be naming the pros and cons of great cultures for eternity and still get nowhere. The original question was meant more of comparing third world countries to first world countries and what role culture plays.



Think back to your arguments about how to deal with terrorists. Send pieces of their relatives back to them, wasnt it? I believe you were talking of how this would keep people toeing the line?

The best thing about our culture and level of advancement is that we can go down and deal with them on their level. Have a debate with someone with a third grade education and use a college level vocabulary. It'll go over their head and just tune it out. Go down to their level and argue and you'll make a lot more headway that way. That is our luxury, we can go up and down when we see fit when dealing with the world.


He hasnt stated anything yet other than another racist stereotype (i.e. the aggressive sexualisation of Black men). He has yet to back that up with any evidence so as of yet, I am not aware of any culture that deems rape of women acceptable.

The fact remaines that rape of women and children is a huge problem in Africa. More so than in the United States or Europe. I don't think his statement is too far off.

- Arkans

[Betheny]

I don't really think any culture is superior to another. Now, governing societies, and societies themselves, maybe. But a culture is generally the ideals, beliefs, and way of life of a group of people. You can't say that one ideal is better than another, because not all ideals are the same for all people. What is good and enjoyable for one may not be for another.

Separating a culture from a society or a government is where some of you are wrong. They are not the same thing. The culture of Jewish people in America is different than that of Christians. Why? Not because they really live differently, but because they believe different things and really can't be compared to each other. Just like Muslims. Different, yes, but better? That's just not something you can compare.

[Wezas]

Difficult to think of more things that white people still have, but I came up with one.

Being President.

(at least until Powell runs)

[Betheny]

Originally posted by Wezas
Difficult to think of more things that white people still have, but I came up with one.

Being President.

(at least until Powell runs)

After the way Bush discredits him and makes him look like an ass? It's doubful he will run.

But your beliefs are what help you shape your world. Goverment is a MAJOR player. It only makes sense that it will bbe influenced by your beliefs.

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Nakiro

I don't find it unfair to say that because a country is better able to provide food, shelter, clothing, and security to its people than another that it is a better country in those respects.

But in other countries, people are able to do that themselves without government provision. Surely thats a damn site better than having to rely on state handouts or struggling to make ends meet on low income.


Identifying cultures as being "better" (and that word is obviously so relative) than another is usually not undertaken as a whole one to one comparison.

You seem to be doing it as a one against the rest comparison.

As far as I can tell, it still holds true to at least the most basic level of needs. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone worrying about their true lot in life when they're scared to death that they will be brutally maimed.

And you are more likely to find people scared to death about being maimed in the inner cities of developed countries than you are in isolated cultures away from western development.

You are so blinkered.

The vast majority never reach self actualization, but that doesn't mean that only those that do live in the Tibitan mountain range.


Woah, hang on. My quote about the Americans not reaching self-actualisation was a parody of your statement that Buddhist monks will never reach SA because they are scared and worried about their next meal. The key words of that part of my post were "What a load of shit".


It can be done in America too, despite the fact that we have jobs/kids/income/mortgages/partners/cars/etc.


The point is, it can be done anywhere. Even places where they dont have tarmac roads and satellite TV. Imagine that?



Sorry, I just don't see where you're getting all your hostility.

I apologise for my hostility.

[Betheny]

A culture is not defined by the government that lords over it.

A good example: Jewish people in Nazi Germany.

[HarmNone]

Heh. It's interesting to find that people who have not been to Africa think of it the way they do. I haven't been to that many of the countries there, but I have been to a few.

Once, while on the road in Kenya, we happened to spy a "flea market" of sorts. We talked the driver into stopping so we could look around. People were going from table to table, sorting through the items for sale (food, clothing...all kinds of things), and choosing what they needed.

Into the mix walk four wide-eyed Americans. We were greeted with smiles and handshakes, and shown around by bevies of friendly people. By the time we left, we'd tasted foods we'd never had before, and each of us had African garb. Although the locals were very interested in our clothing, they were much more interested in seeing that we had "proper attire".

Oddly enough, we had to argue to get them to take money for anything. They wanted to share things with us, and asked nothing in return but a smile and appreciation of their culture. It was certainly not difficult to give that, even though only one young man spoke a few words of English and none of us spoke Swahili beyond the simple word "Jambo" (hello). :)

The Jewish population was a minority, if you look at the population of Europe.

Friendly people do not make a nation great. It is what they are able to accomplish. I'm glad that you had an interesting and pleasant experience there, but being nice to a foreigner still does not make a culture great.

- Arkans

[Betheny]

A culture's numbers don't make it less or more important than any other culture...

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Arkans
I think it as more of a war for survival. They were part on the war on terror, but I really want to stay away from the war and our politics in this thread. There is plent of it around here.
You brought it into this thread by using the "savage wars" in Africa as an example of how American culture is the best.


Please name me one country in Africa that is on par with a European country. I really do not think that the reason they are poor is because of the debt, but due to the fact that they did not invest money wisely. Throwing money to make government officials' lives more comfortable does not make a country great. It goes back to the values.


First off, it is you saying that culture = materialist things.
Secondly, governments that have achieved or retained their status by force are generally not the ones that

Secondly, the state of the economy of a Country does not equate to the quality of life of the people within that country.


Because we can be naming the pros and cons of great cultures for eternity and still get nowhere. The original question was meant more of comparing third world countries to first world countries and what role culture plays.

So basically you want to talk about white cultures Vs Black cultures?


The best thing about our culture and level of advancement is that we can go down and deal with them on their level. Have a debate with someone with a third grade education and use a college level vocabulary. It'll go over their head and just tune it out. Go down to their level and argue and you'll make a lot more headway that way. That is our luxury, we can go up and down when we see fit when dealing with the world.

By go down to their level and argue you mean talk louder when you are telling them how much they need a McDonalds in their village?

:rolleyes:


The fact remaines that rape of women and children is a huge problem in Africa. More so than in the United States or Europe. I don't think his statement is too far off.

- Arkans

Once again, I assume you have some kind of creditable reference to back this up and are not just spouting more racist stereotyping.

[DeV]

Arkans you are aware that there are more than just blacks in Africa. You are also aware of things like Apartheid and the belief that no woman in Africa condones being raped as it is something she is forced to deal with. My mother has traveled to Ghana many times and the culture there is amazing to say the least. They live in very poor conditions and in some areas there is an "upper class" yet it's the people that make the biggest contributions to culture, not the government.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Nieninque


But in other countries, people are able to do that themselves without government provision. Surely thats a damn site better than having to rely on state handouts or struggling to make ends meet on low income.



Sorry, by country I meant a group of people, not so much a governmental body. I think we are basically saying the same thing here.


Identifying cultures as being "better" (and that word is obviously so relative) than another is usually not undertaken as a whole one to one comparison.


You seem to be doing it as a one against the rest comparison.

I'm not trying to do that, sorry. How can you compare all the cultures of the world to just one? I honestly don't think you can not. But I do think you can look at different aspects of each and (one by one) and compare and contrast them.

As far as I can tell, it still holds true to at least the most basic level of needs. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone worrying about their true lot in life when they're scared to death that they will be brutally maimed.


And you are more likely to find people scared to death about being maimed in the inner cities of developed countries than you are in isolated cultures away from western development.

You are so blinkered.


Really? So you'd rather live in say, (random poverish nation) where the average life expectancy is less than 24 due to gorollia (sp?) crime than the inner city?

I think that statement is a bit absurd.

Yes, there are areas safer than the inner city, but the inner city is not the appitimy of hazards, nor is it the average standard of living in the US (or any developed nation with similar problems).



Woah, hang on. My quote about the Americans not reaching self-actualisation was a parody of your statement that Buddhist monks will never reach SA [/b]because[/b] they are scared and worried about their next meal. The key words of that part of my post were "What a load of shit".


You're misquoting or misunderstanding me. My statement was not a "because" statement, it was an "if" statement.

If you reread the above quote with because=if, it will say what I orginal stated, and I think you'll find that it tends to be true.




The point is, it can be done anywhere. Even places where they dont have tarmac roads and satellite TV. Imagine that?



I agree.



Sorry, I just don't see where you're getting all your hostility.

I apologise for my hostility.

Apology accepted.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Arkans
The Jewish population was a minority, if you look at the population of Europe.

Friendly people do not make a nation great. It is what they are able to accomplish. I'm glad that you had an interesting and pleasant experience there, but being nice to a foreigner still does not make a culture great.

- Arkans

You and I define culture very differently, Arkans. I do not feel that my definition of "accomplishment" is necessarily the only definition. What is an accomplishment to one person could mean absolutely nothing to another.

Again, it's all in one's perspective.

First off, it is you saying that culture = materialist things.
Secondly, governments that have achieved or retained their status by force are generally not the ones that

Secondly, the state of the economy of a Country does not equate to the quality of life of the people within that country.

Culture = everything. These are all part of it, but are not a be all end all.



So basically you want to talk about white cultures Vs Black cultures?

First world and third world. Feel free to include Asian, Indian (India Indian), Middle Eastern, or any other type of culture in here. Africa is just a point right now.


By go down to their level and argue you mean talk louder when you are telling them how much they need a McDonalds in their village?

Not even close. Fight a war using the tactics they understand.


Once again, I assume you have some kind of creditable reference to back this up and are not just spouting more racist stereotyping.

http://csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/durableRedirect.pl?/durable/2000/04/12/text/p1s4.html

South Africa ALONE.

http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm

More information.

- Arkans

We definatly do describe it differently. To me, it is definatly just not "customs" it is about everything.

- Arkans

[DeV]

While you're bringing up South Africa, why not throw Apartheid in there as well.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Nakiro
Sorry, by country I meant a group of people, not so much a governmental body. I think we are basically saying the same thing here.

No we arent. You are saying that the best place for this to happen is the US or Europe.

I'm not trying to do that, sorry. How can you compare all the cultures of the world to just one? I honestly don't think you can not. But I do think you can look at different aspects of each and (one by one) and compare and contrast them.

Why would you need to? If its to highlight how things are done differently, then yeah thats an interesting exercise. If it's to highlight which culture is the best, I repeat it is a useless exercise because there is no effective means of doing so.


Really? So you'd rather live in say, (random poverish nation) where the average life expectancy is less than 24 due to gorollia (sp?) crime than the inner city?

I think that statement is a bit absurd.

Yes, there are areas safer than the inner city, but the inner city is not the appitimy of hazards, nor is it the average standard of living in the US (or any developed nation with similar problems).


The statement is absurd, I agree. You made it though.

The point I was making was that there are places in the western countries that are much less likely to provide for self actualisation due to people being scared of being maimed than in the cultures you are describing as inferior to the 'white mans way of life.'

If you want to talk Apartheid, we can. What about it?

- Arkans

[Nakiro]

Secondly, the state of the economy of a Country does not equate to the quality of life of the people within that country.


Shorely you can admit there is some corrolation, yes?



So basically you want to talk about white cultures Vs Black cultures?


I thought it was pretty clear he wanted to compare first to third. Why bring in the racial card? Yes, third world nations happen to be black by a part majority. Does that mean his intent is to make a racial claim?

I don't think so myself.


The fact remaines that rape of women and children is a huge problem in Africa. More so than in the United States or Europe. I don't think his statement is too far off.

- Arkans

Once again, I assume you have some kind of creditable reference to back this up and are not just spouting more racist stereotyping. [/quote]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25806

http://www.spearhead.com/0002-jm.html

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/1232

http://www.rockofafrica.com/news/ChildRape.htm

http://www.rense.com/general19/brutalrape.htm

This one is worth reading:

http://www.worldpress.org/Africa/1561.cfm




According to a U.N. department, “on average, some 40 women were raped every day between October 2002 and February 2003 in and around the town of Uvira,” a town with a population of between 200,000 and 300,000.



Its not racial. Its true.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Arkans

Once again, I assume you have some kind of creditable reference to back this up and are not just spouting more racist stereotyping.

http://csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/durableRedirect.pl?/durable/2000/04/12/text/p1s4.html

South Africa ALONE.

http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm

More information.

- Arkans

From your source:
Now it is a well-known fact that some 52,000 women report a rape each year in South Africa.

From http://www.u.arizona.edu/~sexasslt/national.html:
It is estimated that 102,096 forcible rapes, 39.2 per 100,000 population, were known to the police in the United States in 1994

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Nieninque
'white mans way of life.'

Okay, this thread ends here.

You are definitely hell bent on making this into some kind of racial issue.

This has nothing to do with the color of my skin, or the color of any persons skin on the face of the earth. Yet somehow it is perverted into a sick argument of racial preferences.

The sad part is, is this is just SOUTH Africa. Look at ALL of Africa now. Too be fair, include all of North America, if you want too.

- Arkans

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Nakiro
Okay, this thread ends here.

You are definitely hell bent on making this into some kind of racial issue.

This has nothing to do with the color of my skin, or the color of any persons skin on the face of the earth. Yet somehow it is perverted into a sick argument of racial preferences.

Who the hell gave you the authority to determine that? If you want out, just go and don't let the chalupa door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Her point is extremely valid. Race is often indicative of culture.

Tsa'ah is out to get me. He is copying my RPG character *CRIE*.

- Arkans

Race often is involved, I just wouldn't consider myself a rascist.

- Arkans

[Warriorbird]

So... if rape of women is a problem in Africa... how exactly does the overwhelming incidence of man on man rape in prisons make America more civilized?

[DeV]

Arkans, do you have a personal concern for those women in Africa? Is there something you are willing to initiate to help change the situation in that country or are you simply posting this information to further denigrate an entire people based on their governments practices. Seriously, what is your aim.

Edited 4 correction.

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by DarkelfVold]

Those people are in jail for a reason. They couldn't adapt with the culture's rules and live in our civilization properly.

- Arkans

[Warriorbird]

So... our high incidence of ass rape indicates how civilized we are?

:chuckles:

Sure, there's stupid cultural stuff that happens. It just happens here too. We've done miraculous and terrible stuff in our history. I think Africa was a lot better off before colonization/exploitation. You can reach back into the past and see a lot of stupid stuff Western society has done too.

[Edaarin]

Whoever brought up Maslow's hierarchy of needs and applied it to monks...

Just stop right there. You have absolutely no idea what kind of lifestyle monks live, except for what's portrayed in movies. It's not all meditation and tai chi by the koi pond.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Edaarin
Whoever brought up Maslow's hierarchy of needs and applied it to monks...

Just stop right there. You have absolutely no idea what kind of lifestyle monks live, except for what's portrayed in movies. It's not all meditation and tai chi by the koi pond.

Consider the source ... consider the source.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Artha

No, no culture is superior, just different, and so long as the people are happy and harmonious, who cares.

That same african culture that has no monetary system might also practice barbarous acts such as genital mutilation. Saying that differences mean that there is no superior culture is, to me, an over simplified and overly politically correct view.

Some people consider male circumcision genital mutilation. This has been an accepted practice in the west for years. Only a very few tribes in African practice female circumcision if that is what you are referring to.

Each culture has it's positive and negatives. An intelligent discussion comparing cultures must exam each. What works in the west may not work other places and vice versa. In Okinawa one out of four people live to 100. They have very low instances of cancer and heart disease and a strong family structure. Does this mean that Okinawan culture is superior to western culture?

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Nieninque
Because I think everyone should be concerned about people holding racist views. Asking someone why they care about someone else being unable to see that what they had said was racist, seems like a redundant question. Why do you think they care? It's fucking obvious isnt it?

Ya know, when someone mentions Africa, it doesn't mean they are racist.

I should've just said South America to keep you off your tangent.

You're the one who believes the cultures built on racism and sexism are equal to every other culture, not me.

[Warriorbird]

When someone mentions Africa in terms of cultural superiority... there's plenty of other cultures that do stupid stuff. Of course y'all had to use Africans for the examples. Not racist... no no.

[Hulkein]

Africa is where I have read about the brutal rapes that are part of a males life and pretty much a right to them.

Haven't read the same for South America, that's why I didn't use it.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by Nieninque
Because I think everyone should be concerned about people holding racist views. Asking someone why they care about someone else being unable to see that what they had said was racist, seems like a redundant question. Why do you think they care? It's fucking obvious isnt it?

Ya know, when someone mentions Africa, it doesn't mean they are racist.

I should've just said South America to keep you off your tangent.

You're the one who believes the cultures built on racism and sexism are equal to every other culture, not me. When someone mentions Africa it isn't and shouldn't always be associated with racism automatically. However, when one has nothing good to say about a culture as a whole and only focuses on the less desireable qualities and aspects, completely overlooking tons of other revelant info, it is safe to assume to a degree.

Cultures built on racism and sexism. Both of which still occur in the United States.

[Warriorbird]

Hell, you could've even used France as an example of cultural stupidity. That would've even been a conservative cause celebre.

But, of course it goes to Africa.

[Hulkein]

<<Cultures built on racism and sexism. Both of which still occur in the United States.>>

Yeah, I know, and you think those are on par with the cultures of men like Ghandi?

I'm not arguing US > TEHN ALL. United States isn't really a 'culture' that encompasses everyone.

Originally posted by HarmNone
Out of curiosity, how many of us have actually experienced other cultures, outside of the ones in which we live? (I don't mean riding the tour bus around Vienna...I mean actually living in, and experiencing, the culture.

Argentine culture is far superior due to its great food and sexily women.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Hulkein
<<Cultures built on racism and sexism. Both of which still occur in the United States.>>

Yeah, I know, and you think those are on par with the cultures of men like Ghandi?
No, I don't place any culture on par with any other.

[Warriorbird]

Would've been interesting to see a look at Polish or Russian culture as well... but oddly enough... it's African culture once more.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
What was America doing in World Politics 300 years ago? What crusades, wars and discoveries did it participate in? There weren't any "World Politics" 500 years ago. I hope you can at least agree with that. Therefore, other countries have at most 300 years of head start, which is why I included Britain and Spain, and they were basically copying the Roman Empire, so I included Italy. And the Soviet Union's most dominant republic (or whatever they called it) was Russia.

Please note, I'm not trying to say America's cultural heritage is more robust than any other country's. I took umbrage to the statement that we were insignificant in "global events through time" is all.
Originally posted by Nieninque
Comments about the "savage" fighting are value laden. It also suggests that Africans are funny little people wearing grass skirts with bones through their noses. I thought it was more because genocide is, by any definition, savage. It doesn't matter if you're shoving people in gas ovens or hacking their legs off with machetes and gunning them down with AK-47s.
Because I think everyone should be concerned about people holding racist views.I want to know how American suddenly became "white" in your mind. You're being a hell of a lot more racist than Arkans is.

Backlash made a hugely good point: we made baseball. To expound upon that: we made baseball, so we win. Nyah.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Nakiro
Honestly, I can't think of anything the Inidians gave us at this moment.

You might want to look into the Iroquois Confederacy and their interactions with the founding fathers. And their culture as a whole is fairly relevant to this entire topic.

Raven

[xtc]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by StrayRogue
What was America doing in World Politics 300 years ago? What crusades, wars and discoveries did it participate in? There weren't any "World Politics" 500 years ago. I hope you can at least agree with that. Therefore, other countries have at most 300 years of head start, which is why I included Britain and Spain, and they were basically copying the Roman Empire, so I included Italy. And the Soviet Union's most dominant republic (or whatever they called it) was Russia.

Please note, I'm not trying to say America's cultural heritage is more robust than any other country's. I took umbrage to the statement that we were insignificant in "global events through time" is all.
Originally posted by Nieninque
Comments about the "savage" fighting are value laden. It also suggests that Africans are funny little people wearing grass skirts with bones through their noses. I thought it was more because genocide is, by any definition, savage. It doesn't matter if you're shoving people in gas ovens or hacking their legs off with machetes and gunning them down with AK-47s.
Because I think everyone should be concerned about people holding racist views.I want to know how American suddenly became "white" in your mind. You're being a hell of a lot more racist than Arkans is.

Backlash made a hugely good point: we made baseball. To expound upon that: we made baseball, so we win. Nyah.

Baseball is a rip off of a British game called Rounders which girls play

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Would've been interesting to see a look at Polish or Russian culture as well... but oddly enough... it's African culture once more.

I'd vote them as slightly below Western European and Western.

You make it sound like talking about Africa is like beating up a retarded child. Are we so insecure about the truth?

- Arkans

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by xtc
Baseball is a rip off of a British game called Rounders which girls play That's like saying lacrosse is a rip-off of that Native American game where the field was 30 miles long or whatever. Similarities in conception do not a rip-off make.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Arkans

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Would've been interesting to see a look at Polish or Russian culture as well... but oddly enough... it's African culture once more.

I'd vote them as slightly below Western European and Western.

You make it sound like talking about Africa is like beating up a retarded child. Are we so insecure about the truth?

- Arkans It sounds like you are insecure of the fact that there are positives that go hand in hand with any negative element you name. You have a very narrow definition of culture.

Not saying that there are no positives about those cultures. There are plenty. I just do not believe the outweigh the positives of Western culture.

- Arkans

[4a6c1]

Originally posted by Arkans
I recently took the political poll and foudn the question that I asked rather interesting and felt that it could create some fun discussion.

Anyway, I personally believe so, simply because the people of Europe and North America are so much more advanced than those in the Far East (excluding Japan, but they are Americanized) and those found in Africa.

Anyway, what do YOU think?

Nope. Everywhere I've gone there have been some idiots and some people who contribute to society. Different places, usual mischeif. Its all the same to me.

We are equal to everyone in the best and worst of ways.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Edaarin
Whoever brought up Maslow's hierarchy of needs and applied it to monks...

Just stop right there. You have absolutely no idea what kind of lifestyle monks live, except for what's portrayed in movies. It's not all meditation and tai chi by the koi pond.

Damn so much for me becoming a Buddhist Munk.

[4a6c1]

:lol:

I've done that. Its the constant labor that makes you want to sue the makers of Karate Kid and similar films.

[Warriorbird]

Only as insecure as you and Hulkein with the whole racism card, Arkans. I'm just amused that you couldn't find another example. It makes you look pretty bad.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Only as insecure as you and Hulkein with the whole racism card, Arkans. I'm just amused that you couldn't find another example. It makes you look pretty bad. Yes, not wanting to be called a racist wrongfully obviously speaks to their flawed character. :?:

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Only as insecure as you and Hulkein with the whole racism card, Arkans. I'm just amused that you couldn't find another example. It makes you look pretty bad.

.......

You can do some research about the tribes in Africa where rape is common practice if ya want.

I haven't read about it anywhere else so I was not able to attribute the example to anyone else.

Stop being a pussy, my best friend from about grade 6 to 12 was black, he lived with my family for three years because his mom was a drug addicted alcoholic and his dad was dead due to a work inury. I'm fucking tired of pieces of shit like you pulling a race card whenever anything African is mentioned. You realize all you succeed in doing that is polarizing people, right?

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Hulkein

You can do some research about the tribes in Africa where rape is common practice if ya want.

I haven't read about it anywhere else so I was not able to attribute the example to anyone else.

Stop being a pussy, my best friend from about grade 6 to 12 was black, he lived with my family for three years because his mom was a drug addicted alcoholic and his dad was dead due to a work inury. I'm fucking tired of pieces of shit like you pulling a race card whenever anything African is mentioned. You realize all you succeed in doing that is polarizing people, right?

HAHAHAHAHA

I knew someone would do it and you didnt let me down!

The "I'm not racist my best friend is Black" card came out!

:rofl:

Thanks Hulkein, made my day.

[Hulkein]

And I knew the word Africa with anything remotely negative would cause the

'YOU FCKING RAZIST'

to come out.

Congratulations, you live with a six thousand pound chip on your shoulder.

And being friends with someone and letting them under your roof for a long period of time isn't the same. I don't appreciate being labelled a racist for no good reason.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Nakiro

Originally posted by Nieninque
'white mans way of life.'

Okay, this thread ends here.

You are definitely hell bent on making this into some kind of racial issue.

This has nothing to do with the color of my skin, or the color of any persons skin on the face of the earth. Yet somehow it is perverted into a sick argument of racial preferences.

It isnt perverted into it at all.

If you read back, I tried to compare European cultures with the US culture and told that this thread wasnt to do that. It was only to compare US and European cultures against African and Asian cultures (except the Japanese coz they make good Hi-Fis).

If that isnt a white V Black discussion then I dont know what is.

[Hulkein]

Actually Nieninque, let me clarify this real quick, don't want a misunderstanding.

I haven't read all of Arkans posts so I won't claim that you shouldn't call him racist so maybe you don't have a chip on your shoulder. That was more directed at Warriorbird who continually lumps me in that group.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Hulkein
And I knew the word Africa with anything remotely negative would cause the

'YOU FCKING RAZIST'

to come out.

Congratulations, you live with a six thousand pound chip on your shoulder.

And being friends with someone and letting them under your roof for a long period of time isn't the same. I don't appreciate being labelled a racist for no good reason.

I am a white European woman. I have no chip on my shoulder about being Black.
I was brought up in a racist society. I dont consider myself a racist at all, in fact I believe myself to be antiracist. However, I know that due to my upbringing and influences on my life, some of the things I think say and do will have racist undertones.

I havent called anyone racist. I believe that there have been some racist views expressed.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Hulkein
You can do some research about the tribes in Africa where rape is common practice if ya want.

Why don't you just document your sources? It's been asked before. You made a claim, you got called on it, now back it up. If you cite a reputable source then it will help your argument.

Raven

[Hulkein]

I've read about the issue in a newspaper about a year ago and have heard discussions on it in a class.

I don't have any online sources, sorry.

[Ravenstorm]

Then find some. In any debate, it's up to the person taking the position to back up his own claims. It's not his opponent's to do his homework for him. For all anyone knows (including you), this class you refer to might have been taught by a card carrying member of David Duke's party.

Raven

[Warriorbird]

I dunno. If you've done your reading seems pretty rightful, Latrinsorm. They could at the least have the decency to be open about it like Ben so I can completely disregard them.

:whistles innocently:

[Edited on 10-15-2004 by Warriorbird]

[Nieninque]

He cant find it because it's a pack of shit.
Rape is a problem everywhere
It isnt just the Black men that are bad, Rape happens throughout the world.
Estimates in the UK suggest that one in four women have been raped (depending on the sources).
Those that like to further the arguments that Black men are nasty sexual predators perpetuate the myth that it is just in Africa that rape is a problem, the truth is that (some of) those nice white, culturally advanced men in the United States and in Europe get off on abuse too.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Nieninque
It was only to compare US and European cultures against African and Asian cultures (except the Japanese coz they make good Hi-Fis).

If that isnt a white V Black discussion then I dont know what is. Unfortunately for your wild assumptions, the United States is still not an all-white country or culture.
Originally posted by Warriorbird
If you've done your reading seems pretty rightful, Latrinsorm. Me? Read? Ha!

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by LatrinsormUnfortunately for your wild assumptions, the United States is still not an all-white country or culture.

Think Power.

[Lyonis]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by LatrinsormUnfortunately for your wild assumptions, the United States is still not an all-white country or culture.

Think Power.

Granted, but you have to take into account that minorities in the United States have only been treated like actual people for oh about 40 years or so depending on how you prioritize events in the civil rights movements. I would say that the accomplishments of minorities in America since institutional barriers have be taken down is nothing short of remarkable. While other countries have gone and left their mark on the world, the story of America is still being written. I’m going to side with the camp that it will be a story worthy of remembrance.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Lyonis

Granted, but you have to take into account that minorities in the United States have only been treated like actual people for oh about 40 years or so depending on how you prioritize events in the civil rights movements. I would say that the accomplishments of minorities in America since institutional barriers have be taken down is nothing short of remarkable. While other countries have gone and left their mark on the world, the story of America is still being written. I’m going to side with the camp that it will be a story worthy of remembrance.

You into horror stories then?
:D

[Warriorbird]

Having seen some of the remnants of Communism and horrors of the world (I had a pretty enlightening Eastern European trip) I sure as heck like America. Doesn't mean I immediately assume we're culturually superior OR that the cultural practices of other nations are all logical.... OR that it's a good idea to act as though only non white folks do stupid things.

I backed up my sources and I'm still a rascist. Whatever, Heil Hitler, fuck you and your race card. You're right, Africa is a great place to live, I hope you plan on making the transition soon.

- Arkans

[Warriorbird]

So... why didn't you use something else as an example then? Why as an alternate was South America suggested? Why is it always about non white people when these sort've discussions come up?

I don't think you consider yourself a racist. I don't think you're an evil person. You're sure as heck coming out with some racist ideals, however.

[Edited on 10-16-2004 by Warriorbird]

Um, because non-white countries in general not as savory places to live? Let's play a game. For every "white" country, let's name a non-white country that has EQUAL living standards. Guess what? US does *NOT* count as white, simply due to the diveristy we have and guess what country *I* think is the best?

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

You are missing the point
The whole argument you are presenting is based on an idea that the American way of life is the only way for people to live in safety and comfort and harmony.
What you are doing is trying to say that any country or culture that lives in different ways is in some way inferior to that which you hold dear.
The fact that a family in an underdeveloped country live in a house without electricity without the mod-cons that you desire and without the organized structures of government and the Social Security ect. does not mean that the people within that country or culture are necessarily living a deprived lifestyle.
The quality of a culture does not equate to the fiscal standard of living.

[NewestUser]

<<The quality of a culture does not equate to the fiscal standard of living.>>

What are you talking about? You obviously live in a country that has culture and a fiscal standard of living, which I'm not really sure you know what that means -- because its an weird correlation to make.

Fiscal: Pertaining to money, especially government taxation and spending policies

That has nothing to do with culture, or standard of living really. Unless you're associating taxation with standard of living, which DOES have a positive correlation.

Anyway, a country that does not provide services to the public typically has a lower taxation rate, and thus a lower sense of culture. Economics long ago proved that a government with more money is in a better position, to an extent, to look after the well being of the citizens in their country.

Hence, we have numerous public cultural events sponsored throughout the united states, on the government's tab, daily.

Could you correct me if I'm wrong?

[NewestUser]

And to respond to the topic, the answer is yes. There are tribes in africa that distort the view of the woman and have warped the brains of those individuals to believe that female circumscion is a justified thing, when it is not. No culture has the right to impose an unecessary harm on a female at the age of 18, because its culturally justified.

[Warriorbird]

Sort've like no culture has the right to bomb the hell out've another, have concentration camps, or possess nuclear weapons. Some do anyways.

And Arkans, hint hint, if you opened your eyes a bit, you'd see that there are a fair number of white countries that are crappy places to live, too... as well as the ridiculousness of your assumptions about Japan. In addition, our cultures do a lot of stupid shit. Like, say, dropping an atomic bomb... or the Holocaust... for some near and dear examples to you.

Hell, look at the history of poor Poland.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by NewestUser
And to respond to the topic, the answer is yes. There are tribes in africa that distort the view of the woman

There are people in America who do the same thing.


and have warped the brains of those individuals to believe that female circumscion is a justified thing, when it is not. No culture has the right to impose an unecessary harm on a female at the age of 18, because its culturally justified.

FGM still happens in the US and Europe so dont make out this is an Africa-only issue.
Furthermore, people in the US and Europe still believe that cosmetic surgery is an appropriate thing to do. You could argue the same points about that.

Your definition of culture is very narrow, Lycain.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by NewestUser
<<The quality of a culture does not equate to the fiscal standard of living.>>

What are you talking about? You obviously live in a country that has culture and a fiscal standard of living, which I'm not really sure you know what that means -- because its an weird correlation to make.

It's a very straight-forward correlation to make, Lycain.

What I was saying, and what you couldnt understand, is that a culture that provides a fulfilling existence for the people living within it, does not have to be rolling in money in order for this to happen.

What does need to happen is that the people within the culture need to feel valued, safe, secure and productive within the culture. All of which can be done wholly in the absence of money.

The post was a response to Arkans asking why African cultures hadnt acheived the things that the US has.

My point being that there may be many, and while their cultures/countries may be financially impoverished, the quality of lives can still be more than wholesome.

But if you have read the thread you would have picked that up.


Fiscal: Pertaining to money, especially government taxation and spending policies

That has nothing to do with culture, or standard of living really.

Congratulations. You did understand.



Anyway, a country that does not provide services to the public typically has a lower taxation rate, and thus a lower sense of culture.

Explain this please?


Economics long ago proved that a government with more money is in a better position, to an extent, to look after the well being of the citizens in their country.

Hence, we have numerous public cultural events sponsored throughout the united states, on the government's tab, daily.

Could you correct me if I'm wrong?

Oh youre wrong in many ways.
I'm not talking about how well placed countries with high tax levels are able to look after their citizens. Nor do I wish to point out what the whole thread is about.

Please feel free to read back though.

:)

[Hulkein]

Same old argument. BUT SUM PEOPLE IN AMRERICA DO IT.

Well guess what? Those people are taking part of a terrible culture!

Why do you keep making this an American vs. Whatever?

Cultures don't go by country and country alone. I'm sure as shit the Chinese guy who emmigrated here six months ago and is living in China-town isn't in the same culture that LeRoy the potato farmer is in Idaho.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Hulkein
Same old argument. BUT SUM PEOPLE IN AMRERICA DO IT.

Well guess what? Those people are taking part of a terrible culture!

Custom


Why do you keep making this an American vs. Whatever?


Thats what Arkans made it from the start.
USA and Europeans compared to the Countries predominantly occupied by Black or Asian people.

Blame him

Warriorbird, please show me where I said that all white countries are great places to live?

- Arkans

First World countries Vs. Third World was my main point.

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

And it's still as wrong as White Vs Black

[xtc]

Originally posted by Arkans
First World countries Vs. Third World was my main point.

- Arkans

With India and China's economies growing at around 8% per year respectively and massive job growth numbers these two ancient civilizations may rise again. 3rd world in a 100 years maybe under your feet.

How is it wrong? Afraid to admit that there may be some kind of correlation?

- Arkans

[Warriorbird]

It's the "let's only include countries inhabited by non-whites" technique that's dubious. Do I agree with you that certain cultures have seriously worse practices than others? Yes. If you would've been a little more systematic I might've been willing to be a little kinder about the whole argument. I might not've agreed, but I would've been kinder.

This, however...in your own words...

isn't just ethnocentric thinking, but racist...

"Anyway, I personally believe so, simply because the people of Europe and North America are so much more advanced than those in the Far East (excluding Japan, but they are Americanized) and those found in Africa. "

no matter how you pussyfoot about it. So if you would've phrased it as "Some cultures have bad practices...some have worse practices..." that would've been one thing. You didn't.

and at the same time as some of those cultures have bad practices, they also have practices that can teach us about maintaining the strength of our nation and our culture. (The Middle East would be a prime example.)

Wording is wording. The countries of North America and Europe *ARE* more advanced than countries in Africa. I don't care how you try to work around it. Call it rascist, but I call it a fact.

- Arkans

[Back]

Advanced how?

Standard of living, technologically, governing wise, personal level of comfort wise. All of this is part of culture, thus, one would say that culturally since culture includes all of this.

- Arkans

[Back]

Can you be more specific as to which African culture you think does not live up to these standards?

Also, if you were to put yourself in that culture, do you think you would excell? Better yet, would you survive?

Let's take the Hutus and Tutsies for this example.

Would I excell? Most likely not. First of all, I'm a white foreigner. That automatically puts me at a huge disadvantage. Second of all, even if they looked past the fact that I am a foreigner and accepted me into the tribe, they would most likely disregard anything I knew/valued due to the fact that they were still at the stage of razing village wontonly.

- Arkans

[Back]

Actually, I meant if you were born and grew up in said culture.

By the way, the reason why the Hutus and Tutsi fought was because of racism. It was Europeans who influenced it. Source (http://www.africaaction.org/bp/ethcen.htm)

Of course, because of the way the borders were drawn. Sure, blame it on the Europeans, because two tribes definatly can't use their great values system to overcome silly little differences and just cause ridiculous amounts of killing.

- Arkans

[Back]

Influenced by Europeans. Yes, they did it to themselves.

What about your survival instinct? You know, I’m not really sure where I am going with that question. It just popped into my head.

My survival instinct probably would kick in, yes.

- Arkans

[HarmNone]

I've lived in a couple of third world countries, and I didn't find it a miserable existance at all. What you describe is part of YOUR culture, Arkans. It is not a part of all cultures, nor should it be.