Least popular profession?

[Garthilk]

Now and days, what is the least played, or least popular profession?

[Tgo01]

According to Donquix's demographics thread:

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?87260-some-demographics

It looks like monk.

93 monks were tallied during his last demographic polling month with the second least class being paladin at 168.

[Taernath]

Makes sense, those were the last released.

[Astray]

I'd take a shot and say Savant. For being implemented in 2007, nobody plays them. What gives, guys?

[Garthilk]

Thanks for the quick reply.

I found GS3 in the early 90's and just saw it came back with F2P, going to fire it up. :D

[Arulisse]

I'd take a shot and say Savant. For being implemented in 2007, nobody plays them. What gives, guys?

http://i.imgur.com/AdiBPrO.jpg

[Astray]

Ha! Jokes on you, the only time I cry is after sex!

[Androidpk]

Ha! Jokes on you, the only time I cry is after sex!

So you've never cried before?

[Astray]

So you've never cried before?

I cry plenty.

[Lord Orbstar]

Uncle Ricky is not a gentle man, is he?

[Astray]

Uncle Ricky is not a gentle man, is he?

I don't know, he's your uncle.

[Donquix]

Makes sense, those were the last released.

They're also, by most accounts, the worst class. Mechanically speaking.

They have no real utility to offer other classes, open UAC is...lackluster when compared to basically every other combat style. If you go the "real" monk path of using no armor and relying on iron skin, you get murdered by CS casters. If you choose to group hunt they have the focus spells, which are nice. They're unreliable, and even when working lackluster, means of tagging groups of enemies can be a pain when group hunting and other classes typically have to accommodate you specifically. They're a square with no access to ARMOR support abilities or shield manuevers, and their available combat maneuvers are pretty disappointing to be honest. Everything they're missing would typically be addressed in a profession specific circle a semi would typically have, but they were inexplicably changed from semi to square but...then not given basically anything that would be in that spell list, it feels like playing a bard or a ranger without the bard/ranger list. There is no indication any of this will be addressed any time soon.

This isn't to say that monks aren't viable. People have created and played monks as open uac without armor training from 0 to cap, and continue to do so. Gemstone is pretty easy 99% of the time, then you get killed by random BS, but it's all relative and a monk is clearly on the low end for combat effectiveness, and essentially non-existent on the spectrum for utility. Being able to buff others with 1204/1208 that no one else can cast without scrolls/magic items, focus barrier/mind over matter when grouped, and at higher levels increasing creature gen with provoke (which you probably won't have until at least 70+)...that's it.

Try it out, if you like it rock it. Just want to make sure people know what they're getting into :D

[Androidpk]

It isn't all doom and gloom for monks. With 3x dodge and PT you're going to have amazing DS versus physical attacks and manuevers. The lack of CvA does hurt but monks have one of the best spells for shutting down a caster. Open UAC could use a little bit of tweaking but it isn't as bad as some people think it is.

[JackWhisper]

Paladins and Monks would obviously be the lowest, since they are the more recent professions. Paladins were UNDER monks, but then the spell review hit. They've over doubled in population now, thank god. And they're a LOT better now, offering group utility and usefulness outside combat with the resurrection changes.

Monks just need help on their TD. That's just lame.

[Astray]

Paladins are power houses but they are incredibly boring to play. I haven't played one since the spell review though so I don't know.

[JackWhisper]

Paladins are power houses but they are incredibly boring to play. I haven't played one since the spell review though so I don't know.

It's night and day. Try it. Seriously. Especially when you group up now, you become a badass. Like a bard in a group. Everyone fuckin loves you.

[Fallen]

Paladins into cap benefit greatly from being a Semi as opposed to a square. A lot more versatility once you start accruing points.

[Astray]

It's night and day. Try it. Seriously. Especially when you group up now, you become a badass. Like a bard in a group. Everyone fuckin loves you.

I'll have to try it. Do they still hit like fucking tanks?

[Vusit]

I'll have to try it. Do they still hit like fucking tanks?

yes

[Donquix]

It isn't all doom and gloom for monks. With 3x dodge and PT you're going to have amazing DS versus physical attacks and manuevers. The lack of CvA does hurt but monks have one of the best spells for shutting down a caster. Open UAC could use a little bit of tweaking but it isn't as bad as some people think it is.

indeed, you're effectively immune to physical AS/DS attacks as a monk. High base DS, lol evasion (especially if you pick up emastery, which i think is superfluous), and if you go no armor and the parry/disarm from brace + twc + uac + transformation lore.

[Jarvan]

I cry plenty.

Masturbation is not sex.

[JackWhisper]

I'll have to try it. Do they still hit like fucking tanks?

Yes they do. And with the spell changes, our group spells add like 10% df to everyone, AND heavy damage weighting to all attacks.

HAHHHHHHH!

[Astray]

Yes they do. And with the spell changes, our group spells add like 10% df to everyone, AND heavy damage weighting to all attacks.

HAHHHHHHH!

So basically now they are perfect for group hunting and solo hunting, right?

[JackWhisper]

Yep. The spell changes made us bards, basically. Except we can actually hit shit hard.

[Astray]

Yep. The spell changes made us bards, basically. Except we can actually hit shit hard.

Very interesting.

[Taernath]

They're also, by most accounts, the worst class. Mechanically speaking.

They have no real utility to offer other classes, open UAC is...lackluster when compared to basically every other combat style. If you go the "real" monk path of using no armor and relying on iron skin, you get murdered by CS casters. If you choose to group hunt they have the focus spells, which are nice. They're unreliable, and even when working lackluster, means of tagging groups of enemies can be a pain when group hunting and other classes typically have to accommodate you specifically. They're a square with no access to ARMOR support abilities or shield manuevers, and their available combat maneuvers are pretty disappointing to be honest. Everything they're missing would typically be addressed in a profession specific circle a semi would typically have, but they were inexplicably changed from semi to square but...then not given basically anything that would be in that spell list, it feels like playing a bard or a ranger without the bard/ranger list. There is no indication any of this will be addressed any time soon.

This isn't to say that monks aren't viable. People have created and played monks as open uac without armor training from 0 to cap, and continue to do so. Gemstone is pretty easy 99% of the time, then you get killed by random BS, but it's all relative and a monk is clearly on the low end for combat effectiveness, and essentially non-existent on the spectrum for utility. Being able to buff others with 1204/1208 that no one else can cast without scrolls/magic items, focus barrier/mind over matter when grouped, and at higher levels increasing creature gen with provoke (which you probably won't have until at least 70+)...that's it.

Try it out, if you like it rock it. Just want to make sure people know what they're getting into :D

I have a level 7 UAC monk so it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

[Donquix]

I have a level 7 UAC monk so it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

all that stuff said, i think UAC is quite fun. A lot of that is just because it's new. The messaging is really good but like anything in gemstone, you can only read the same crit message few hundred times before you get over it!

"having" to find two "weapons" that you don't really get any benefit from is a little annoying. I mean, typically you focus on one finishing (punch being considered the most effective) and then jab and only do the other attack for tierups. But it does kinda of suck that you have to get multiple items and you don't get any benefit from having them both pimped out. like if you dual wield, you get the benefits from both on every swing (less so the offhand if you ambush, but still a lot...especially with the advent of the dervish stance), sword/board you always get the stats provided by both items, and with twohanders there is obviously a noticeable increase in the power from using the one larger weapon, plus you only have to worry about upgrading the one.

the problems mentioned above don't really start to manifest until much later, and i think UAC and monks in general are perfectly fine, if generally a littttttle slower in the killing compared to other options, until quite a bit later. CONSIDERABLY later if you're casually f2p leveling without exp passes :D

It's just super frustrating because these aren't like, nuanced random edge case issues. These are fucking glaringly obvious core design issues that literally EVERYONE (RAR HYPERBOLE) that tried the class seriously agrees upon, and they're just like "mmm....whatever, monks are out go!"

a way to reliably increase kill speed in exchange for stamina/mana on a single target
a mass attack that is actually GOOD like literally every other class has (no mstrike equivalent for UAC seems like a huge letdown here)
some option handle to the CvA deficit
a few small tweaks/additions to existing cmans here and there

and you'd have a great class that can go toe-to-toe (combat wise) with all of the others. The utility problem is another discussion, and the same that paladins and to a lesser extent warriors have had for a while.

Instead they just kind of...languish. Someone has to be last i guess :D

[Fallen]

Yep. The spell changes made us bards, basically. Except we can actually hit shit hard.

Not quite as fast, though. I'd say Bards are the best Semis, then Rangers, and then Paladins, but with recent changes that gap has narrowed considerably.

[JackWhisper]

I'd give Bards top slot, but Paladins are WAY > Rangers now with the DF/Weighting we add to groups! Come on!

[Astray]

Isn't Spike Thorn one of the more broken things in the game? From last I heard it was nearly impossible to dodge unless you were a rogue.

[JackWhisper]

Spike thorn is incredibly OP, but we're talking about utility usefulness! Rangers don't bring anything to the table, sadly. They're pretty good cast hunters tho.

[Donquix]

yeah post cap spike is fucking scary.

edit: spike is fucking scary, period, just like...especially maxed ranger spike.

[Astray]

Okay, that's what I thought. But since this is about utility, kinda moot.

[Fallen]

Spike thorn is incredibly OP, but we're talking about utility usefulness! Rangers don't bring anything to the table, sadly. They're pretty good cast hunters tho.

Huh? Resist Nature is pretty damned useful. They can make you damn near immune to a given element.

[JackWhisper]

yeah but you don't have to have a ranger in group to get that!

[Fallen]

yeah but you don't have to have a ranger in group to get that!

In terms of spells, Rangers and Paladins can provide Minor Spirituals, though I would wager they'd be more likely to have them than a Paladin pre-80 or so. As to their own base, they can provide Resist Elements, Mass Colors, and most importantly Mobility. I wouldn't say the requirement of being stuck having the person in your group to gain a spell's benefit is a perk, really.

[JackWhisper]

We were talking about how paladins were improved..... just like bards, they're group-utility classes. And yeah, spells may differ, but pallies can do minors as well. I have lesser shroud on my paladin, and something a ranger doesn't. I can raise dead people! Woo!

Either way, I still say pallies outdo rangers now! Bards are still top shot because they're OP! NERF BARDS ARG!

[Fallen]

We were talking about how paladins were improved..... just like bards, they're group-utility classes. And yeah, spells may differ, but pallies can do minors as well. I have lesser shroud on my paladin, and something a ranger doesn't. I can raise dead people! Woo!

Either way, I still say pallies outdo rangers now! Bards are still top shot because they're OP! NERF BARDS ARG!

That's true. I always forget about Corpse Punt and Paliraise. In terms of utility Paladins are pretty solid these days.

[Astray]

Bards melt faces with screams. This basically turns you into Mazinger.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBfiVgR1ubk

[Fallen]

I always picture them grabbing someone by the shirt collar and screaming, "LAAA LAAAAA LAAAAAAAAAA!" until they die.

[Malisai]

Spike thorn is incredibly OP, but we're talking about utility usefulness! Rangers don't bring anything to the table, sadly. They're pretty good cast hunters tho.

619 is pretty effective combat utility.

[JackWhisper]

That's not combat utility.

That's running-away-from-combat utility!

[Astray]

When in doubt, back the fuck out.

[JackWhisper]

When in doubt, back the fuck out.

We are discussing combat efficacy, not the pull-out method!

[Androidpk]

indeed, you're effectively immune to physical AS/DS attacks as a monk. High base DS, lol evasion (especially if you pick up emastery, which i think is superfluous), and if you go no armor and the parry/disarm from brace + twc + uac + transformation lore.

I was 3x dodge with evasion mastery and +50 in dodge enhancives. It was just silly how much DS I had.

[Astray]

I was 3x dodge with evasion mastery and +50 in dodge enhancives. It was just silly how much DS I had.

How often would you flat out dodge attacks?

[Androidpk]

How often would you flat out dodge attacks?

http://i.giphy.com/kgKrO1A3JbWTK.gif

[Astray]

That's pretty damn impressive. It sounds like Monks are up there with Rogues in the dodge area.

[Androidpk]

I'm not sure the exact percentage. I know 3 ranks of evade mastery in robes gives a 27%. Add in 3x dodge, dodge enhancives, burst of swiftness and duck and weave and you get some crazy high evasion numbers.

[Astray]

Jeez, 27% in itself is a hell of a bump. I guess the poor TD is just to make them rounded out.

[JackWhisper]

Jeez, 27% in itself is a hell of a bump. I guess the poor TD is just to make them rounded out.

That's the thing. Being hit has *NEVER* been as dangerous as being casted at, at cap. It just hasn't. At cap, if you get warded, a 103 endroll frequently can, and does, kill you. Being hit for a 103 endroll only fucks you up if the thing yer fighting has a feras weapon/ithzir lightning/something like that, or a claidhmore.

I hate monks, but it's not fair. It's just not.

[Astray]

That's the thing. Being hit has *NEVER* been as dangerous as being casted at, at cap. It just hasn't. At cap, if you get warded, a 103 endroll frequently can, and does, kill you. Being hit for a 103 endroll only fucks you up if the thing yer fighting has a feras weapon/ithzir lightning/something like that, or a claidhmore.

I hate monks, but it's not fair. It's just not.

Ah, well shit. That's just awful. Not even a 103 on a claidh roll will kill you. It'll hurt but it's not death. Lightning will flare on you but it doesn't always happen. Being offed by a 103 because of warding being a death? That's absolutely intolerable.

[JackWhisper]

I donno whether you're being sarcastic or not, but I've been thrown down by liches plenty with 103 endrolls. Just saying. It aint fun =(.

[Astray]

I'm not being a sarcastic dick. I've been hit by stuff with claidhs for an endroll of 103 and it doesn't kill me. I am just kind of amazed that monks are that fragile when it comes to having spells thrown at them.

[Androidpk]

Monks don't get any CvA unless they wear actual armor.

[JackWhisper]

Monks don't get any CvA unless they wear actual armor.

This. They're squishy as all get out. They get all the physical benefit from their ironskinwhatever spell, and none of the magical. =(

[Lord Orbstar]

I had a monk with 12 million experience points. I was unkillable and didnt care about swarms. UAC is very slow to kill things with tier up compared to using a real weapon and just ambushing it's head. Even with very nice, expensive gear, it was ridiculous how often i died to warding failures. It literally made it unfun, and I had been waiting for monks for a decade so i was prepared to be a total fan boy. If you want to play a monk, do so. I just would not want him as my main. I love the sword and board styles now of melee with the changes to shield. I recommend that if you go square.

One of the most fun casters I played though was my empath. A Deathpath is BLAST to play. the only thing that gets you are manuevers. I recommend empath as a caster or wizard.
if you want to go semi, I recommend paladin or bard.
If you want to go square, i recommend rogue (train as a Jesh style magical rogue when you can) or sword and board warrior or (if you have GOOD armor/pocket mage) TWC dwarven berserker with dual morningstars.

[Aluvius]

Yeah, monks (by which I mean open UAC using monks) have a sort of inverse hunting power curve compared to every other class. They are actually sort of OP at low levels (I think UAC is at least as good as claid hunting early on), great at mid levels up to 70-ish (or even later) which is when they curve starts to drop off.

Its a chicken and the egg problem. I'm not even certain the lack of CvA is at the heart of it, though it certainly makes it worse.

UAC kills/incapacitates slow relative to all other combat styles.

Monks using 1202 don't have CvA progression (normal for squares).

Usually a square would use a melee attack/cman to quickly kill/incapacitate a CS caster to make up for their relative lack of TD.

Monks can't do that because UAC kills/incapacitates slowly and they don't have the cman selection for incapacitation (which they need anyway for masteries and krynch to make UAC kill less slowly).

So monks die to CS casters.

And the circle restarts.

[Androidpk]

Open UAC isn't always slow. It can be very fast but it is situational.

[Viekn]

I had a monk with 12 million experience points. I was unkillable and didnt care about swarms. UAC is very slow to kill things with tier up compared to using a real weapon and just ambushing it's head. Even with very nice, expensive gear, it was ridiculous how often i died to warding failures. It literally made it unfun, and I had been waiting for monks for a decade so i was prepared to be a total fan boy. If you want to play a monk, do so. I just would not want him as my main. I love the sword and board styles now of melee with the changes to shield. I recommend that if you go square.

One of the most fun casters I played though was my empath. A Deathpath is BLAST to play. the only thing that gets you are manuevers. I recommend empath as a caster or wizard.
if you want to go semi, I recommend paladin or bard.
If you want to go square, i recommend rogue (train as a Jesh style magical rogue when you can) or sword and board warrior or (if you have GOOD armor/pocket mage) TWC dwarven berserker with dual morningstars.

On the topic of utility while still being able to do other things, why not a cleric as a caster vs. an empath? What made a deathpath a blast to you?

[JackWhisper]

Empathic Focus.

NOMMMMMMMMMMMM.

[Androidpk]

Also, mental dispel and vertigo are awesome disabler spells.

[Velfi]

Monks.

Also, wtf is a deathpath? An empath that.. casts spells? So like, just a standard empath using the recommended setup?

[Androidpk]

I'm guessing an empath trained to kill instead of heal.

[Viekn]

Monks.

Also, wtf is a deathpath? An empath that.. casts spells? So like, just a standard empath using the recommended setup?

I believe it's an empath that focuses on hunting with spells for exp vs. healing.

[JackWhisper]

Monks.

Also, wtf is a deathpath? An empath that.. casts spells? So like, just a standard empath using the recommended setup?

It's an empath that played Dragon Warrior too much.

Spell list:

Hurt
Hurtmore
Hurtmost
Antidote

[Velfi]

Yo that's just called an empath. I'd wager that the numbers are at least split if not in favor of empaths who hunt instead of town heal, so that's not exactly a thing needing a separate classification.

Warpath is a somewhat silly term, but at least they break the mold of the designed empath (lol deathpath) style.

[Viekn]

Yo that's just called an empath. I'd wager that the numbers are at least split if not in favor of empaths who hunt instead of town heal, so that's not exactly a thing needing a separate classification.

Warpath is a somewhat silly term, but at least they break the mold of the designed empath (lol deathpath) style.

Velfi laying down the LAW on empaths!

[JackWhisper]

Velfi laying down the LAW on empaths!

When asked what profession Velfi plays, Velfi answered, "Warrior."

=P

[Donquix]

Idea of math for how far behind a monk is in terms of another square

be case scenario for a monk at level..lets say 80, versus a warrior. Self spelled, we'll assume both focusing on TD problems so t5 ensorcelled magical armor:
monk:
-5 (because it will be +5 CvA) + 10 STD (101) + 15 STD (107) + 20 STD (120) + 40 MTD (1208) + 10 TD (combat focus) + 5 (perfect self stat bonus, the warrior PROBABLY isn't picking up wis/aur enhancives) = 52 generic TD (higher for spirit and mental)

warrior:
+31 (because CvA will be -31) + 10 TD combat focus = 41 generic TD

looks pretty even! ...except the warrior will have all of those minor spirit spells, at the very least more often then not, especially way post cap when they are actually self-cast. So they'll have those as well. and (way down the line) self-cast 400's, including 430 when they approach jeril/roblar levels of exp if they so choose.) super post cap is a bit less of a concern but, still it's valid point just affects way less people.

picking up spellburst ranks is really not that big of a deal, so at the end of the day, for non-mental td, everything the monk can have maybe minus shroud (20std), and the extra 10 generic/20 mental from 1208 the warrior can have to. and that 36 point difference from robes to plate, the monk can never make up, without just training armor which is pretty lame.

further, if you DO get warded as a monk and you get disabled, you can't do a damn thing about it for the most part. inner harmony sure, if you want to use your martial stance on that but then you have to hope it's ticking sometime soon, even 10 or 15 seconds without being able to do anything in front of a caster is pretty god damn detrimental to your survival. other then that you'd have to rely on a society escape (voln armor or sigil escape) both of which the other classes also have access too. Rogues have more control over the fight in general with hide/ambush, warriors have waaaaaaaaay better cmans for preemptively disabling things (1218 IS really nice, not to be all doom and gloom), and can berserk out of sticky situations. also since they can quite easily pick up berserk, feint, and to a lesser extent disarm for "free" from the guild from the guild they have a lot more options on where to spread the cman points around. not even accounting for the versatility of the new shield cmans

so it's not JUST a lack of a td, it's a ~40ish TD differential + inferior options to work around said TD differential

[JackWhisper]

You just used a best case scenario... to show there was STILL a large disparity.

[Donquix]

and it's actually worse. forgot shield cva and probably other stuff, i'm tired.

[Androidpk]

Idea of math for how far behind a monk is in terms of another square

be case scenario for a monk at level..lets say 80, versus a warrior. Self spelled, we'll assume both focusing on TD problems so t5 ensorcelled magical armor:
monk:
-5 (because it will be +5 CvA) + 10 STD (101) + 15 STD (107) + 20 STD (120) + 40 MTD (1208) + 10 TD (combat focus) + 5 (perfect self stat bonus, the warrior PROBABLY isn't picking up wis/aur enhancives) = 52 generic TD (higher for spirit and mental)

warrior:
+31 (because CvA will be -31) + 10 TD combat focus = 41 generic TD

looks pretty even! ...except the warrior will have all of those minor spirit spells, at the very least more often then not, especially way post cap when they are actually self-cast. So they'll have those as well. and (way down the line) self-cast 400's, including 430 when they approach jeril/roblar levels of exp if they so choose.) super post cap is a bit less of a concern but, still it's valid point just affects way less people.

picking up spellburst ranks is really not that big of a deal, so at the end of the day, for non-mental td, everything the monk can have maybe minus shroud (20std), and the extra 10 generic/20 mental from 1208 the warrior can have to. and that 36 point difference from robes to plate, the monk can never make up, without just training armor which is pretty lame.

further, if you DO get warded as a monk and you get disabled, you can't do a damn thing about it for the most part. inner harmony sure, if you want to use your martial stance on that but then you have to hope it's ticking sometime soon, even 10 or 15 seconds without being able to do anything in front of a caster is pretty god damn detrimental to your survival. other then that you'd have to rely on a society escape (voln armor or sigil escape) both of which the other classes also have access too. Rogues have more control over the fight in general with hide/ambush, warriors have waaaaaaaaay better cmans for preemptively disabling things (1218 IS really nice, not to be all doom and gloom), and can berserk out of sticky situations. also since they can quite easily pick up berserk, feint, and to a lesser extent disarm for "free" from the guild from the guild they have a lot more options on where to spread the cman points around. not even accounting for the versatility of the new shield cmans

so it's not JUST a lack of a td, it's a ~40ish TD differential + inferior options to work around said TD differential


According to Finros there is no problem here.

[Donquix]

yeah...i remember his response recently was basically something along the lines of "the problem isn't monks, it's the rest of the game"

and i'm just like...wow. this is what happens with shoddy (at beast) leadership and people designing in a vacuum. "this is how it SHOULD be, fuck the other 99.9% of the game it's wrong"

[JackWhisper]

This is why I never played a monk.

Paladins were a great creation. We're not AWESOME on TD, but we survive. Our AS is great, among the top in the game. Basically, we're a crappy version of a redux warrior, and a crappy version of a melee cleric. Both on their own suck, but together..... it became something fantastic.

Monks are like the combination of IW and Tsin. Some stupid, some scam, and a whole lot of people hating them.

[Fallen]

Empaths are quite impressive in their versatility. Strong warding casters, great bolters, can heal for experience, and are perfectly viable mutant swingers.

They can wear heavy armor, can 3x physical fitness, cast through injuries, make great use of Sunfist for mana returns.

I do wish they had more utility outside of combat, but they likely feel healing for experience is enough.

[Thondalar]

Now and days, what is the least played, or least popular profession?

Totes monks.

Monks CAN BE pretty bad-ass, if you play them some way other than the way they were intended, or if you have stupid bad-ass gear. Either way, they are more of a novelty...practically zero utility, so their only use is killing stuff...and many already-existing classes do that more efficiently.

[Androidpk]

This is why I never played a monk.

Paladins were a great creation. We're not AWESOME on TD, but we survive. Our AS is great, among the top in the game. Basically, we're a crappy version of a redux warrior, and a crappy version of a melee cleric. Both on their own suck, but together..... it became something fantastic.

Monks are like the combination of IW and Tsin. Some stupid, some scam, and a whole lot of people hating them.

If Simu will still let me roll back to a paladin for $200 I'd do that.

[Fallen]

If Simu will still let me roll back to a paladin for $200 I'd do that.

Won't they? Seems like something they'd be up for.

[Androidpk]

Won't they? Seems like something they'd be up for.

I'm not sure. I've heard conflicting reports.

[JackWhisper]

You have to contact them manually about it.

They ought to let you, though.

And it might cost 250 now, up from 200.

[Thondalar]

yeah...i remember his response recently was basically something along the lines of "the problem isn't monks, it's the rest of the game"

and i'm just like...wow. this is what happens with shoddy (at beast) leadership and people designing in a vacuum. "this is how it SHOULD be, fuck the other 99.9% of the game it's wrong"

That's the whole issue with monks...I get what he was trying to do, but you can't just make one class so mechanically different from how the entire game works and then blame it on the game. Its so fundamentally silly/insane/short-sighted/...I could go on.

In a different game, monks would probably be amazing...in this game, where killing or getting killed is often a matter of a second or two (especially post-cap), its just ridiculous. This game is built on instant crits, because instant crits (or at least disables) are the most-likely scenario for both players and critters dynamically towards cap and post-cap. Which is why rogues make the best monks. Ambush punch to the face is stupid OP with a rogue, hard to pull off with a monk.

[Thondalar]

I'm not sure. I've heard conflicting reports.

Easy fix, call billing and get it from the horse's mouth. I'm pretty sure they still do.

[Androidpk]

That's the whole issue with monks...I get what he was trying to do, but you can't just make one class so mechanically different from how the entire game works and then blame it on the game. Its so fundamentally silly/insane/short-sighted/...I could go on.

In a different game, monks would probably be amazing...in this game, where killing or getting killed is often a matter of a second or two (especially post-cap), its just ridiculous. This game is built on instant crits, because instant crits (or at least disables) are the most-likely scenario for both players and critters dynamically towards cap and post-cap. Which is why rogues make the best monks. Ambush punch to the face is stupid OP with a rogue, hard to pull off with a monk.

Ambushing with UAC is definitely stupid OP, especially since you are bypassing the tier up system. It is possible for monks, as I've mentioned before. Rolling krynch and aimed punches to the head, from open, is also stupidly brutal. Grimswarm and bandits were always a blast using that method.

[Donquix]

Ambushing with UAC is definitely stupid OP, especially since you are bypassing the tier up system. It is possible for monks, as I've mentioned before. Rolling krynch and aimed punches to the head, from open, is also stupidly brutal. Grimswarm and bandits were always a blast using that method.

i just wish there was a way to gurantee a tier up damn it. spirit strike, ki-focus, fucking anything. just let me pay stamina or spirit to gurantee a tier2 min, tier 3 w/ krynch proc, and things suck so much less.

my ideal changes for monks:
UAC compatable with mstrike
change the pre-reqs on perfectself to either rank 3 of surge OR burst, or rank 2 of them both
some cman to guarantee a tier up. or tie into spirit strike. i really like ki-focus for this
slippery mind not a martial stance
non-shitty offensive martials, in general besides krynch
more weapon cmans (should still be a viable alternate route)
disarm protection for weapons (even if it's a martial)
activate inner harmony in more situations (pay extra stamina, clear a stun, etc.)
mindwipe :(

either just give the TD for damn iron skin or at least make it an option somehow (telepathy lore, etc.)
and/or some unlockable lore effect for mindward. 15 ranks of telepathy lore, becomes a literal ward that absorbs 1 failed cs check (guaranteed, not like fasthirs) and the ward drops (keep the td, just the ward part), chance to not fall on proc with more lore.

mental lores are damn expensive, especially when you're probably already fucked on mtps from having to train so many spells for a "square"

[Fallen]

Guild skills! Get a bit of CvA per rank. NO CMAN, you gotta suffer through the dumb old way.

Done.

[JackWhisper]

Really?! Monk guild before pally guild?! COME ON! NO FAIR!

#InsertQQ

The main classes need guilds though, for real.

Everyone oughta have a guild, but I think that it should be the original classes. THEN the pallies, THEN the monks. Then everyone pitches in to make a player-run savants guild where we do nothing but worship the Herald Of The Savants. A level 15 locker mule.

[JackWhisper]

This is how unpopular monks are.


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Profession

Your character's profession is his or her special job in Elanthia, and largely defines the skills and specialties available to you during your time in Elanthia. Although your profession does not directly dictate your roleplay, there are some abilities that only certain professions can access. Alchemy, for example, is limited to Clerics, Empaths, Sorcerers, and Wizards, while certain Combat Maneuvers are only usable by Rogues or Warriors.

Melee

•Rogue
•Warrior


Magic

•Cleric
•Empath
•Sorcerer
•Wizard


Hybrid

•Bard
•Paladin
•Ranger

[Fallen]

Actually lolnomonks

[JackWhisper]

Actually lolnomonks

Exaaaactly. Hahaha.

[Androidpk]

One of my gripes is that when you fight something higher level than yourself you get a pretty stiff penalty on tiering up.

[Nahkaev]

I have leveled two monks, one to 51 and one to 30... and in both cases thought I would be able to overcome the tedious nature of spending roundtime jabbing things for 3 damage in order to attack them for real.
I found eventually, both times, that I was fooling myself.

if you want to punch things and have them die instantly, be a rogue- you'll do just as well if not better than a monk, plus have an entire profession (and guild!) to play around with as a bonus.

[Donquix]

Really?! Monk guild before pally guild?! COME ON! NO FAIR!

#InsertQQ

The main classes need guilds though, for real.

Everyone oughta have a guild, but I think that it should be the original classes. THEN the pallies, THEN the monks. Then everyone pitches in to make a player-run savants guild where we do nothing but worship the Herald Of The Savants. A level 15 locker mule.

monks are in this weird spot though. guilds were originally there because the cman list wasn't, so they're this "bonus" that squares have. except now there is a new square that doesn't get it... or shield cmans...or armor abilities. and it's like, well...fuck me I guess. i mean the rogue guild skills aren't the best but, worst case you get free cman defense for bandits. It's not like they're terrible, they're just not arguably not as good as warriors. berserk, feint, disarm (hell even spin attack, why not) and warcries, warriors clearly came out the best (and at the time, they needed the most help by far)

some suggested adding brawling maneuvers (bmans) to the collection of mans. without any access to armor/shield cmans its hard to argue with it, and a number of existing cmans can just be ported over. the thing that sucks when comparing a monk build to a warrior/rogue is there's not a lot of room for "fun" cmans imo. You're kinda pidgeonholed into i need this and this and this, and with no guildskills there's not a lot left, if you skip perfect self i think it's better but in the TD position they're in, ends up being worth it for the whopping 5 td you get from the stat bonuses. almost by itself.

bearhug, headbutt, haymaker, cheapshots as well as a few more "monky" ones could be added and i think that's (potentially) a quick win for plugging a lot of holes, but does begin to be problematic with the slippery slope of adding a maneuever list for all the things.

[Warriorbird]

The guilds are awful. They don't fit the current game.

[Thondalar]

The guilds are awful. They don't fit the current game.

"The game" was never meant to have any guilds other than rogue and warrior, because they had actual things that made sense that players could use to augment their profession. The only reason we have any other guilds at all is because people pissed and moaned about it for so long they were finally forced to come up with something to have in most other guilds that wasn't game-breaking, since most other professions were already pretty much broken (in favor of the player) mechanically.

[Latrinsorm]

I'm not being a sarcastic dick. I've been hit by stuff with claidhs for an endroll of 103 and it doesn't kill me. I am just kind of amazed that monks are that fragile when it comes to having spells thrown at them.Crit weighting of all kinds (including claidhs) only kicks in when a rank 1 crit would have been generated anyway, so a claidh does nothing damage up to about endroll 109 against robes (depending on redux) and then higher than that you get pulped. A flaring weapon only has to generate a hit of any kind, so 101+ can be lethal if the flare is lethal. CS attacks in general can also crit on 101.
Yeah, monks (by which I mean open UAC using monks) have a sort of inverse hunting power curve compared to every other class. They are actually sort of OP at low levels (I think UAC is at least as good as claid hunting early on), great at mid levels up to 70-ish (or even later) which is when they curve starts to drop off.Ideal for F2P, eh? :D
Monks can't do that because UAC kills/incapacitates slowly and they don't have the cman selection for incapacitation (which they need anyway for masteries and krynch to make UAC kill less slowly).What about Feint?

[Latrinsorm]

"The game" was never meant to have any guilds other than rogue and warrior, because they had actual things that made sense that players could use to augment their profession. The only reason we have any other guilds at all is because people pissed and moaned about it for so long they were finally forced to come up with something to have in most other guilds that wasn't game-breaking, since most other professions were already pretty much broken (in favor of the player) mechanically.Meant by whom? :D

[Thondalar]

Meant by whom? :D

Meant by whomever created the initial combat system. I know you haven't played in a while, but think back to when you did, and you'll understand what I'm getting at.

[Warriorbird]

Meant by whomever created the initial combat system. I know you haven't played in a while, but think back to when you did, and you'll understand what I'm getting at.

Rolemaster? Fair enough point, I suppose.

In reflection on Monks the point I think I want to make is crossbows. Monks are the crossbows of GS. It doesn't mean they aren't capable. Just nobody uses crossbows because you can do everything they do easier and more quickly with a longbow.

[Androidpk]

Rolemaster? Fair enough point, I suppose.

In reflection on Monks the point I think I want to make is crossbows. Monks are the crossbows of GS. It doesn't mean they aren't capable. Just nobody uses crossbows because you can do everything they do easier and more quickly with a longbow.

One day there will be dozens of monks running around GS.

[Latrinsorm]

Meant by whomever created the initial combat system. I know you haven't played in a while, but think back to when you did, and you'll understand what I'm getting at.The initial combat system didn't have guilds for rogue or warrior. The warrior guild wasn't created until 1997, years after de-ICE-ing.

[Donquix]

Someone brought up monks being shit in the complaints folder, Wyrom asked for specifics, finros was finros about it. Anyone interested might want to check it out.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Discussions%20with%20Simutronics/The%20Bad,%20and%20the%20Ugly%20(general%20complai nts)/view

[Androidpk]

Someone brought up monks being shit in the complaints folder, Wyrom asked for specifics, finros was finros about it. Anyone interested might want to check it out.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Discussions%20with%20Simutronics/The%20Bad,%20and%20the%20Ugly%20(general%20complai nts)/view

Astahr brings up a lot of great points though he is a bit wrong on some points I'd say.

[JackWhisper]

I gotta say this. I have to. It can't be FUCKING SAID ENOUGH.

If they just FUCKING FIXED THEIR GOD DAMN CvA/TD, PEOPLE WOULD SHUT UP! The class differences of strength/weakness would become flavor. You play monk because you WANT to play monk.

I have ZERO love for monks, and even *I* know that they're fucked on the magic defense side. It's ridiculous.

Give the class a straight up +30 across the board TD, and they become in-line, but a bit under, the other squares in the game.

The fact that fucking Finros addressed the rogue versus monk UAC shit was HILARIOUS. He went out of his way to bust a perfect rogue vs monk scenario as to it being balanced. Even rogues NOT HIDING OR AMBUSHING, can outdo monks. A rogue ambushing and a monk ambushing? Rogue wins. This has been tested heavily. Repeatedly. By people apparently more knowledgeable than Finros.

I won't ever play a monk because I despise not wearing full plate on a melee class. All my non-plate wearing characters are casters, or utility *rogue boxpicker who uses light leather enhancive*. But I won't lie that I'm semi-interested, have been for a while, but won't even attempt to tough those stupid balancing issues out. It's stupid.

[Donquix]

that would be me, and feel free to correct. some of those points are mine, some of them were me summarizing things i've talked about with others. not everyone reads the officials so i tried to include most things i've heard others say

[JackWhisper]

Note: The one thing monks have on other open UAC classes is their speed. They can attack fast. That IS cool, but it's not near everything.

[Androidpk]

And lol at butt hurt Finros once again saying monks are fine.

[Androidpk]

that would be me, and feel free to correct. some of those points are mine, some of them were me summarizing things i've talked about with others. not everyone reads the officials so i tried to include most things i've heard others say

I'll make a list!

[JackWhisper]

I'll make a list!

We wait with bated breath.

INB4 some idiot tries to use the word bated like a dumbass.

[Androidpk]

Donquix, what level is your monk?

[Donquix]

I gotta say this. I have to. It can't be FUCKING SAID ENOUGH.

If they just FUCKING FIXED THEIR GOD DAMN CvA/TD, PEOPLE WOULD SHUT UP! The class differences of strength/weakness would become flavor. You play monk because you WANT to play monk.

I have ZERO love for monks, and even *I* know that they're fucked on the magic defense side. It's ridiculous.

Give the class a straight up +30 across the board TD, and they become in-line, but a bit under, the other squares in the game.

The fact that fucking Finros addressed the rogue versus monk UAC shit was HILARIOUS. He went out of his way to bust a perfect rogue vs monk scenario as to it being balanced. Even rogues NOT HIDING OR AMBUSHING, can outdo monks. A rogue ambushing and a monk ambushing? Rogue wins. This has been tested heavily. Repeatedly. By people apparently more knowledgeable than Finros.

I won't ever play a monk because I despise not wearing full plate on a melee class. All my non-plate wearing characters are casters, or utility *rogue boxpicker who uses light leather enhancive*. But I won't lie that I'm semi-interested, have been for a while, but won't even attempt to tough those stupid balancing issues out. It's stupid.



And lol at butt hurt Finros once again saying monks are fine.

yeah, that was my favorite part. "you're comparing 3 skills to 1! of course it's better!"...ok, well, what 2 skills can I train in to make up that gap? I'll wait.

[Tgo01]

yeah, that was my favorite part. "you're comparing 3 skills to 1! of course it's better!"...ok, well, what 2 skills can I train in to make up that gap? I'll wait.

Is ambushing and hiding useless to monks? Not being a smart ass, I know literally zero about how monks hunt :(

[Donquix]

Donquix, what level is your monk?

baby one now, but i played a friends converted rogue around ~85ish extensively at release until they cancelled that account :D So i'm doing it benjamin button style, doing the old first and now having the lowbie/leveling experience. No cap or post-cap.


Is ambushing and hiding useless to monks? Not being a smart ass, I know literally zero about how monks hunt :(

they're both expensive to double at 3/2, you can only double s/h at most and don't have the rogue (or ranger) profession bonus. Points are tight as is. People have tried it, i personally haven't, without much success.

a little while ago i suggested a combat addition for the (already unimplemented) cloak of deception, basically turning cloak into camo (you assume the form of whatever you're hunting). If you could rely on that for the "hide" you could pick up at least singling in ambush for a potentially interesting alternate build path.

[Androidpk]

Okay, overall if say you are spot on. You bring up just about every issue I can think of and address them. The things I disagree with you on are vertigo, mental dispell, krynch and the cost of perfect self.

I believe my monk is 74 and so far I haven't had any problems warding critters with vertigo. I love the fact that it hits everything in the room too. If 1630 could do that I would splooge.

1218 -You said this spell was nice. I'd say this is one of the best anti-magic spells in the game. No warding check, strips pro-rated spells, drains mana and has a chance to damage and stun? Fuck yes, please.

Krynch - I think you are underestimating how fast this can be, especially when you're aiming your attacks.

Perfect self - Expensive, sure, but I think it's worth the cost. I also think any other class would give their left nut to have a passive cman like this.

[Androidpk]

I tried the hiding/ambushing path and it just wasn't worth what I had to give up versus what I got in return.

[Donquix]

Okay, overall if say you are spot on. You bring up just about every issue I can think of and address them. The things I disagree with you on are vertigo, mental dispell, krynch and the cost of perfect self.

I believe my monk is 74 and so far I haven't had any problems warding critters with vertigo. I love the fact that it hits everything in the room too. If 1630 could do that I would splooge.

1218 -You said this spell was nice. I'd say this is one of the best anti-magic spells in the game. No warding check, strips pro-rated spells, drains mana and has a chance to damage and stun? Fuck yes, please.

Krynch - I think you are underestimating how fast this can be, especially when you're aiming your attacks.

Perfect self - Expensive, sure, but I think it's worth the cost. I also think any other class would give their left nut to have a passive cman like this.

my main problem with 1218 is the mana cost, shit is expensive. if you get unlucky with krynch procs on the casters you dispel so you're stuck jabbing for a while, no silence/stun/sleep from UAC, shit gets dicey.

vertigo is hit or miss for me. it was better right after getting it, when i was near 1x in the 1200's, but the td/cs growth is pretty brutal when you start changing over to 100's. i think it's what it works on too, a fully spelled up caster...no bueno. pretty great for bandits though and after i pick up 120 and start on the 1200's again i should improve.

the perfect self i tend to agree, i almost didn't put that in there. i think my main problem with it is like i said, it feels mandatory. if monks won't ever get shield maneuvers, or he "bmans", cheaper cman costs seems fair and that's an easy win to free points up. but yes, i don't think i could live without it, just for the TD and free logic. it made stats placed for growth a LOT easier to manage. this was definitely a "nice to have" not a "FUCK YOU GIVE ME CvA" problem :D

[Androidpk]

I have like 3 or 4 pages of notes on all this (somewhere!) that I'll try to add in the next few days. CvA is definitely a huge issue and that fact that iron skin doesn't add any makes training in lores seem works to me. I already have stellar DS and I'm rarely hit by physical attacks. My biggest gripe is that MoC, beyond the force on force defense, is practically useless. I would fucking LOVE if you could get to tier 3 and then use mstrike to roundhouse kick everything in the room.

[JackWhisper]

Sorry, my internet was out for maintenance for an hour.

I gotta say this. I agree with most of the points, and am not going to address anything in particular, but I gotta say something about the gear shpeel.

There aren't as many top-end weapons for UAC, I agree. If you had talked specifically about kickass boots, I'd have been totally onboard.

But for UAC gloves? Dude. 10x self-mana zealot T5 gloves. Those, right now, are floating about. And, if I recall, aren't even on a monk. They're on someone who REALLY wanted self-mana zealot.

My lance kicks ASS, but I'd be hardpressed to compare it to those gloves. Just saying. ^^. It's also not the only set like that. There's two, of minor differences. And several 8x-10x pairs of gloves out there.

Where I see a disconnect in usage, is in UAC-specific weaponry. You have a bunch of random 0x-7x weapons like knuckle-dusters and what-have-you, but can you say you've seen a truly bitchin one, of any base? I can't. And I've searched. There may be one or two floating about, but what they are, I couldn't tell you.

[Donquix]

I have like 3 or 4 pages of notes on all this (somewhere!) that I'll try to add in the next few days. CvA is definitely a huge issue and that fact that iron skin doesn't add any makes training in lores seem works to me. I already have stellar DS and I'm rarely hit by physical attacks. My biggest gripe is that MoC, beyond the force on force defense, is practically useless. I would fucking LOVE if you could get to tier 3 and then use mstrike to roundhouse kick everything in the room.

yes, please god. and it needs to be inherent to MoC training, not a cman.

[Androidpk]

The thing about gear and UAC is that I'm not really sure high end gloves/boots would even make that much of a difference. As long as you can tier up fine you are going to get a kill, especially on a tier 3 attack which is practically a guatanteed kill. Unless the weapon helps guarentee a tier up, and none do, then I don't really see it being an issue. A higher enchant could help you hit critters higher level than you but then you still have the glaring problem of not being able to tier up.

[JackWhisper]

I agree, which is why I think weaponry is much less of an issue for a monk than another class. This, of course, is barring people who shoot bows or hurl. The DS pushdown of those systems are fucking ridiculous.

[Androidpk]

I bet a halfling monk archer would be fun.

[Donquix]

Sorry, my internet was out for maintenance for an hour.

I gotta say this. I agree with most of the points, and am not going to address anything in particular, but I gotta say something about the gear shpeel.

There aren't as many top-end weapons for UAC, I agree. If you had talked specifically about kickass boots, I'd have been totally onboard.

But for UAC gloves? Dude. 10x self-mana zealot T5 gloves. Those, right now, are floating about. And, if I recall, aren't even on a monk. They're on someone who REALLY wanted self-mana zealot.

My lance kicks ASS, but I'd be hardpressed to compare it to those gloves. Just saying. ^^. It's also not the only set like that. There's two, of minor differences. And several 8x-10x pairs of gloves out there.

Where I see a disconnect in usage, is in UAC-specific weaponry. You have a bunch of random 0x-7x weapons like knuckle-dusters and what-have-you, but can you say you've seen a truly bitchin one, of any base? I can't. And I've searched. There may be one or two floating about, but what they are, I couldn't tell you.

Daiyon has the zealot gloves, i want to say there's another pair but the other is definitely in a blackhole if there is. the zealot gloves were the ones i was specifically thinking of when i was like "i know some kickass stuff is out there..." there was also the UD bane gory gloves.

if i wanted to use OHE or THW or even poles and to a lesser extent OHB as vishra can attest to, there are a TON more options. there are a ton more users, so it's kind of a chicken and the egg thing. all the white/black ora stuff, random weighted things, tons more banes, coraseine, blink, etc. All the things released over the years that aren't great but are cool like briar flares, snake weapons, rebalance flares, mechanical flares, etc. obviously you can't make up for a 20 year supply deficit in a single event but even the "best" uac gloves/boots are like...high enchant + flares, outside of the zealot and ud bane. just hoping for some more diversity.

there is a lack of the non-glove weapons as well, there are some random really good ones floating around, but those suuuuuuuck for uac anyway. stop nerfin ma multipiers.

[Donquix]

I bet a halfling monk archer would be fun.

wasn't spiffy doing that before he quit? and he was like "oh hey, i'm a ranger / rogue but less awesome"

and yeah...the gear wouldn't be huge but, i can brain things fine from 10-100 with a 4x morningstar/handaxe/maul/lance. But i can brain the ever living fucking shit out of them with a 10x wondrously weighted one. overkill is fun!

[Androidpk]

Anything that decreases your MM isn't worth using I say.

I gotta say I love using a THW with mongoose and all I'm using is a superior forged 5x battleaxe.

[JackWhisper]

In this, we don't see eye to eye. As you guys say, all you need to do, is tier up, and you wax critters, regardless *or mostly so* of the weapon you use. No other class does that. If spells in this game were potency-based off how strong your runestaff was, there would be an absolute uproar/riot/strike/unsub wave over it. There are TONS of casters running around this game in 'throwaway weapons' that are 0x. How many melee do you see doing that at cap? Almost none. 4x minimum, even as a throwaway weapon.

Yeah there's two zealot gloves that I can recall, but, like you said. One is blackholed. I remember the UDB gloves too. Those are nice.

And yes, I agree there's a time issue, they can't just uberflood the market. I mostly looked at the market for weapons of any given type about 15 years ago, and paired it with monks from now. There were more weapons then, but not by much, and it was heavily slanted towards OHE. It just was. There were almost no awesome OHBs, there were a couple claids floating around over 3x, there was that claid-weighted oldstyle bastardsword that was...I think greatsword/broadsword?.... that was floating around, there were the 30point damage mattocks *which were awesome*, mauls were all but nonexistent, and there were a fuckload of OHE's. I personally had the DMMB from back then. At the time, it was 3lb, 8x, 15point VHCW falchion that could be converted to scimitar *Who the FUCK would do that, I donno. I never did*. But my point is, that all these items I named, for their early days... were the cream of the crop *not entirely, just a decent portion* of their weapon types.

But, again, I don't see the point since monks are not as weapon-dependent as any other class. Do you just want more options? What will those options do for a monk? Curious, since I don't play a monk.

[Androidpk]

I would propose making it so gloves and boots give an additional bonus to your MM.

[Tgo01]

Monks should only hunt with force orb.

[Donquix]

In this, we don't see eye to eye. As you guys say, all you need to do, is tier up, and you wax critters, regardless *or mostly so* of the weapon you use. No other class does that. If spells in this game were potency-based off how strong your runestaff was, there would be an absolute uproar/riot/strike/unsub wave over it. There are TONS of casters running around this game in 'throwaway weapons' that are 0x. How many melee do you see doing that at cap? Almost none. 4x minimum, even as a throwaway weapon.

Yeah there's two zealot gloves that I can recall, but, like you said. One is blackholed. I remember the UDB gloves too. Those are nice.

And yes, I agree there's a time issue, they can't just uberflood the market. I mostly looked at the market for weapons of any given type about 15 years ago, and paired it with monks from now. There were more weapons then, but not by much, and it was heavily slanted towards OHE. It just was. There were almost no awesome OHBs, there were a couple claids floating around over 3x, there was that claid-weighted oldstyle bastardsword that was...I think greatsword/broadsword?.... that was floating around, there were the 30point damage mattocks *which were awesome*, mauls were all but nonexistent, and there were a fuckload of OHE's. I personally had the DMMB from back then. At the time, it was 3lb, 8x, 15point VHCW falchion that could be converted to scimitar *Who the FUCK would do that, I donno. I never did*. But my point is, that all these items I named, for their early days... were the cream of the crop *not entirely, just a decent portion* of their weapon types.

But, again, I don't see the point since monks are not as weapon-dependent as any other class. Do you just want more options? What will those options do for a monk? Curious, since I don't play a monk.

the same thing other classes have. they're fun to have! all the same stuff still applies. gear is a good carrot at the end of a stick to dangle in front of people.

that wasn't a class balance complaint, more just a "as a monk, i have less cool shit i want to collect", that's just more overall game design. there's so many cool sources of inspiration for monk items as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Deadly_Venoms

centipede gloves - jab can double strike
snake - poison flare gloves (damage)
scorpion - petrify/immoliization poison boots
lizard - grapple flare
toad - bubble

give them the ability like the old profession shields or dwarven warblades where if they're in the same room, the powers combine.

stuff like that, even if you never get it, the fact that it exists for your class someplace is pretty cool.

[Alashir]

the same thing other classes have. they're fun to have! all the same stuff still applies. gear is a good carrot at the end of a stick to dangle in front of people.

that wasn't a class balance complaint, more just a "as a monk, i have less cool shit i want to collect", that's just more overall game design. there's so many cool sources of inspiration for monk items as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Deadly_Venoms

centipede gloves - jab can double strike
snake - poison flare gloves (damage)
scorpion - petrify/immoliization poison boots
lizard - grapple flare
toad - bubble

give them the ability like the old profession shields or dwarven warblades where if they're in the same room, the powers combine.

stuff like that, even if you never get it, the fact that it exists for your class someplace is pretty cool.

I don't think you should have to make a strong argument in order to say "gear is fun". That's pretty much all you're saying and yea, monks don't have it and it really doesn't matter for them.

[Latrinsorm]

there's so many cool sources of inspiration for monk items as well.They could even just keep shamelessly ripping off DnD. DDO alone has a huge number of item properties that could be shoehorned into GS.

[Androidpk]

They could even just keep shamelessly ripping off DnD. DDO alone has a huge number of item properties that could be shoehorned into GS.

They should. DnD monks are fun!

[Nathala Crane]

No idea what Monks look like in 5E, but dat 3E/3.5E Diamond Soul feat. <3 I'm definitely okay with continued inspiration from D&D.

(Greater Executioner's Stance/Great Cleave next please.)

[SpiffyJr]

wasn't spiffy doing that before he quit? and he was like "oh hey, i'm a ranger / rogue but less awesome"

and yeah...the gear wouldn't be huge but, i can brain things fine from 10-100 with a 4x morningstar/handaxe/maul/lance. But i can brain the ever living fucking shit out of them with a 10x wondrously weighted one. overkill is fun!

Pretty much. I was a shitty version of a ranger/rogue without all the cool stuff.

[JackWhisper]

Pretty much. I was a shitty version of a ranger/rogue without all the cool stuff.

Hey Spiffy GS is F2P now! Come back and laugh with us at how bad their F2P system is!

[Fallen]

And make and update awesome scripts!

[Tgo01]

I was seriously looking into making a monk that hunts with spells but then I noticed they can only single in spells and that one of their spells requires spell aiming and they can only single in spell aiming and it costs 5/20 to single in it.

Are monks really considered squares? They seem like a very weak square.

I honestly don't get it because I was reading over their spell list and it seems like a lot of those spells define a monk and are basically required to play one. Which is fine, if they were a semi. But it seems kind of stupid to require a class to train in spells while making them a square.

They can triple in physical fitness though, but can monks get redux if they single in spells?

At least they can train spells a lot cheaper than other squares.

[Androidpk]

Yeah, they're a square for some odd reason. They don't even have access to abilities that the other two square professions get.

1x in spells will still give you redux. My monk's redux is pretty high but it's almost superfluous since I generally only have to worry about warding attacks.

[SpiffyJr]

Hey Spiffy GS is F2P now! Come back and laugh with us at how bad their F2P system is!

1. Saw F2P got excited.
2. Saw I couldn't downgrade my account and throw money at Simu.
3. LOL'd (literally) at more wtf business decisions and carried on with my day.

[Donquix]

I was seriously looking into making a monk that hunts with spells but then I noticed they can only single in spells and that one of their spells requires spell aiming and they can only single in spell aiming and it costs 5/20 to single in it.

Are monks really considered squares? They seem like a very weak square.

I honestly don't get it because I was reading over their spell list and it seems like a lot of those spells define a monk and are basically required to play one. Which is fine, if they were a semi. But it seems kind of stupid to require a class to train in spells while making them a square.

They can triple in physical fitness though, but can monks get redux if they single in spells?

At least they can train spells a lot cheaper than other squares.

that spell isn't even implemented by the way, so don't worry no need for spell aim training!

so that leaves you with 1201...which the last time i played around with it, i went to the catacombs and got 200+ endrolls for like 17 damage and a rank 2.

and 1210, which actually is pretty good. I've actually cast a LOT of 1210. The problem is it costs 10 mana, and you're a "square" with square CS (even against the weak mental TD things have), square harness power, and square MC. On things i can reliably ward i do cast it instead of 1207 a bit, for funsies. Also so one day if I'm not being lazy I can parse my logs and try to see how much the vulnerability increased the damage of subsequent hits.


I don't think you should have to make a strong argument in order to say "gear is fun". That's pretty much all you're saying and yea, monks don't have it and it really doesn't matter for them.

the problem is, there is no "fun monk gear", or fun uac gear in general. At least not enough of it. The latter...people keep saying that like it's a good thing. I'd rather gear matter more, and there be more of it, then it not matter. Gear not mattering is bad for the class, not good.

[Latrinsorm]

No idea what Monks look like in 5E, but dat 3E/3.5E Diamond Soul feat. <3 I'm definitely okay with continued inspiration from D&D.

(Greater Executioner's Stance/Great Cleave next please.)There's a 5E now? Disgusting. 3.5 forever!

And to be clear, I'm not saying ripping off DnD is a bad thing. I'm just saying that if you're going to do it, might as well go all the way and get some of the sweet gear out of it too. I also have fond memories of my 14 ranger 6 monk 10kstars archers from DDO, but that's an entirely different topic altogether.

[elcidcannon]

There's a 5E now? Disgusting. 3.5 forever!

QFT

[Nathala Crane]

3.5 was the Ranger's shining moment, my favorite D&D class. I keep hearing good things about 5th, but I haven't had a tabletop group since moving to my current city.

[Donquix]

3.5 was the Ranger's shining moment, my favorite D&D class. I keep hearing good things about 5th, but I haven't had a tabletop group since moving to my current city.

Same. I haven't tabletoped in ages but, everything I read about the release was reluctantly positive. like "fucking wotc, milking us for everything we're worth. another new edition this is so stupid i'm just gonna play pathfinder, fuck this. I'll try it once just to see how much they messed it up...ok well once wasn't enough we'll play again next week. fuck, have we played 5th ed every day this week?"

[Donquix]

It's not a matter of we're constrained under the current setup and thus these problems exist. We can just as easily address any of the issues under the current system without needing a Monk profession spell circle. For example, if we decide Monks need more defense against warding spells, we can address that issue through Iron Skin (1202); we don't need Monastic Diamond Skin (1303) to solve that problem. The issue is reconciling our design with players' expectations.

I know there have been many posts on this in the past, but if Monk players want to compile a new list of their concerns (with the relevant data to illustrate the points), I am definitely interested in reading it.

GameMaster Estild

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Monks/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Monks/view/1161

If anyone has some logs / examples, i think primarily for CvA deficiency at or near cap, that'd be helpful

[JackWhisper]

I'm a capped paladin. I will volunteer to get casted at. We need a capped rogue, a capped warrior, capped bard, capped ranger, and capped monk.

So...I have no clue who plays a capped rogue. Sue me. Me, Jeril, Galen, Hoy, Rowmi.

Then we just get casted at with self spells, and it'll show the severe deficiency.

[Donquix]

anyone have high level / capped creature mental TD handy? check the pawnshop for a 1201 scroll :D

Specifically I'd like concrete percentages of 1219's effectiveness at high level.

[Warriorbird]

CVA problems, kill speed illustrations, illustrations of other professions being able to tier better/monk inability to tier up fast enough (no matter what we train) would all be helpful for us to post.

[JackWhisper]

We can go into a warcamp.

Just let 1 class at a time kill. The recorder walks in with X class, watches them kill for 60 seconds.

[Androidpk]

I'd say capped monks using UAC are at a huge disadvantage in invasions with critters over level 100.


A sad monk jabs at a Vathor and hits for 1 damage!

A sad monk jabs at a Vathor and hits for 1 damage!

A sad monk jabs at a Vathor and hits for 1 damage!

A sad monk jabs at a Vathor and hits for 1 damage!

A sad monk jabs at a Vathor and hits for 1 damage!

A sad monk jabs at a Vathor and hits for 1 damage!

A sad monk jabs at a Vathor and hits for 1 damage!

A sad monk jabs at a Vathor and hits for 1 damage!

A sad monk jabs at a Vathor and hits for 1 damage!

A sad monk jabs at a Vathor and hits for 1 damage!

Jeril arrives.

Jeril kills a Vathor in one swing.

A sad monk cries alone in the corner.

[JackWhisper]

I'm pretty sure everyone who doesn't berserk or spikethorn is at a disadvantage with most invasion postcap critters.

They even suck for me. LOL.

[Androidpk]

I'm pretty sure everyone who doesn't berserk or spikethorn is at a disadvantage with most invasion postcap critters.

They even suck for me. LOL.

Not as much as a monk. If a monk can't get a tier up they can't kill with open UAC.

[Donquix]

Not as much as a monk. If a monk can't get a tier up they can't kill with open UAC.

i'm over hunting about 10 levels currently

i had 3 kills yesterday where i jabbed things to death without tiering up, so like 5-20ish max damage at at time, plus weapon flares, attrition kill on things with ~300 hp (maybe more, i forget).

Those are outliers, but still, jesus fucksticks christ.

[JackWhisper]

Leveling up my paladin, my best was uphunting 18 levels. Doing level 63 shit at level 45. I uphunted at least 10 levels no matter where I was hunting, until Bowels, where I hunted until 95, then did warcamps until cap.

Pallies are fun.

[Androidpk]

I tried hunting the bowels at 70 and couldn't tier up on anything.

When my paladin was 45 he killed a massive incarnadine vathor..

[Donquix]

My last full day of logs, when killing the things i overhunted, i averaged 3.75 jabs per target. The low end is lower then it should be, as there were times where things swarmed and I had to leave. Probably balanced by, once krynch is rolling, i open with an aimed headshot before moving to jabs. So this wouldn't count the (few) times i had a one shot with the god proc of krynch, i need to make a script to start tracking this.

Conversely for things my level or under when i hunted them, i averaged about 2.47 jabs per target. Waaaaaaaaaaaay less of a chance i wandered away from any of those, or if did it ever.

I also open with 1207 on, most of these. So even on average when krynch doesn't proc i'm spending
setup|average jabs|average aimed tierup attack x2|total
3 sec soft RT + |7.41 + |((4 + 4 + 5 + 6)/4)*2 |= 16.91 hard RT seconds per mob


the average tierup i'm figuring equal chance to tierup with a jab/punch/grapple/kick at 4/4/5/6 seconds when aimed, taking the average of that.

with a tier 2 krynch proc...
setup|average jabs|average aimed tierup attack x2|total
3 sec soft RT + |7.41 + |((4 + 4 + 5 + 6)/4) |= 12.16 hard RT seconds per mob


a tier 3 krynch proc is PROBABLY a 1 shot kill, with 4 seconds aimed head punch, which will proc ~35% of the time on like-level, i haven't checked logs to verify that, we'll just use the 35% (tier3) 50% (tier2) from the info

best case scenario....
that means 35% of the time the shortest duration
4 * .35

50% of the time it's the 12.16
12.16 * .50

15% of the time lol jabcity
16.91 * .15

average of 10 seconds per kill, not accounting for anything else i have to do (1207 fails, 1218, feint, etc.)

when i was using weapons, it was basically 6-8 seconds, depending on the weapon and if i had burst running, but it was rare to not get an aimed headshot kill.

this is pretty janky math i'm doing in between my actual job right now but, numbers!

[Androidpk]

3.75.. lol

Can you imagine the uproar if other classes were changed to have a similar mechanical obstruction?

[JackWhisper]

I tried hunting the bowels at 70 and couldn't tier up on anything.

When my paladin was 45 he killed a massive incarnadine vathor..

Dude that doesn't count. He was fully dispelled, prone, and stunned. PFFT. Their DS is like 200!

[Androidpk]

Dude that doesn't count. He was fully dispelled, prone, and stunned. PFFT. Their DS is like 200!

Were you there?

[JackWhisper]

Were you there?

Probably. But I've killed a vathor in my 50s. And the only way I hit him was he got fully dispelled, knocked down, and stunned. And his DS was, IIRC, 238.

[JackWhisper]

Were you there?

Vathors come equipped with almost every spell. They aren't squares, or semis, or pures. They're whatever they are, with every imaginable spell. And it takes 2-4 dispels to wax everything off them. And their DS sucks after that.

[Taernath]

PK is guilty of Stolen Vathor

[Androidpk]

Probably. But I've killed a vathor in my 50s. And the only way I hit him was he got fully dispelled, knocked down, and stunned. And his DS was, IIRC, 238.

You weren't! Only Vivaldi was. It was dispelled but not stunned. My point still stands though. With enough AS and CS you can kill your target regardless of what the level difference is, not so with UAC.

[Androidpk]

PK is guilty of Stolen Vathor

:lol2:

I DID take Vivaldi's kill.

[JackWhisper]

Oh, that was your point? I donno, I don't hit shit with my fists. Hah!

Anyways, the dispels are how you hit em. Woo.

I DO think that there needs to be an UAC modifier boost/penalty spell for players and critters. Like a Vathor walks in. Cast WOTEVERSPELL from level 100 sorc. It reduces DS by 30, adds a 30% reduction on UAC defense aptitude. Would solve tons of problems. Specially if monks could eventually do it themselves.

[Latrinsorm]

Just throwing this out there - two second jabs. Seems like it would fix a lot of problems.

[Androidpk]

Just throwing this out there - two second jabs. Seems like it would fix a lot of problems.

It wouldn't fix anything. Get rid of jab completely.

[Astray]

I thought Jab was the best way to tier up?

[Lulfas]

I thought Jab was the best way to tier up?

And that's the problem. You spend a lot of time doing, essentially, 0 damage so you can use your abilities that actually do damage. That time in hard rt with excessively low chance of stun/knockdown is part of the problem. Pushing the tier up bonus to punch would help a lot.

[JackWhisper]

I thought Jab was the best way to tier up?

Jab is to monks what a damageless/stunless charge/feint would be to dumbasses uphunting shit they can't hit without knocking down and forcestancing.

[JackWhisper]

Just a really stupid waste of RT.

[Latrinsorm]

So if we lower it to 2 seconds, there's less time wasted! Bada bing!

[Tgo01]

So do monks excel at anything? Or are they second rate at everything they do? Apparently even rogues beat them out in the unarmed combat department.

Do any of their spells or abilities augment any sort of fighting style other than unarmed combat? Like, I know clerics aren't exactly the best archers out there but some of their spells kind of give them a boost if they want to use a bow. Seems like monks are pigeon-holed into unarmed combat. Apparently monks can't even be a pure :(

[Astray]

Dodging, I'd say.

[Tgo01]

Dodging, I'd say.

I'll dodge kobolds to death! Make them die of exhaustion.

[Androidpk]

They excel at physical defense and open UAC. They're also the only class at the moment that can make critters spawn faster.

[Donquix]

So do monks excel at anything? Or are they second rate at everything they do? Apparently even rogues beat them out in the unarmed combat department.

Do any of their spells or abilities augment any sort of fighting style other than unarmed combat? Like, I know clerics aren't exactly the best archers out there but some of their spells kind of give them a boost if they want to use a bow. Seems like monks are pigeon-holed into unarmed combat. Apparently monks can't even be a pure :(

nope. no buffs for AS at all in spells. can get ranged from burst of swiftness, and i guess +5 AS to whatever from perfect self if you don't have max STR enhancives.

the tl;dr's in order...

the minor shock of CS attacks

iron skin (hooray)

make things prep spells slower

generic defense

a cure for frenzy (after casting can stance back down out of offensive)

unimplemented spell aiming attack

single target ewave

scaling MTD (can get up to +40 @ ~50ish spell ranks, so 20 TD that matters which is nice)

+UAC (scales w/ transform lore) and can flare to ignore any defense from spells on the target (1/6 apparently attacks)

CS based attack, grapple flares, gives target negative crit/damage padding

CS based "disable", target can't sue "special maneuvers" but its a cs attack sometimes can attack its friends (never actually had it happen, need telep lore). only used it to stop ro'ater burrow when i was ~10 levels over them seemed to work

unimplemented non-combat move, can change your race. best use would be like, a dark elf selling in TI, etc. would get normal trading rates i suppose.

YAY STAMINA COST REDUCTION FOR GROUP

can parry w/ uac, includding offhand. chance to disarm on parry, disarm chance increases w/ transform lore

fasthir's reward for physical attacks. can cast on others for 2 minute duration. transfernce lore increases chance to proc

generic group defense

locate but like, lasts a bit and you see the room like having a familiar/eyeepy there. can't cast on someone if they died mroe than 30 seconds ago

the mental dispel, only good caster defense but 18 mana a pop

AOE disable. forces round time, can make them prone. the effects come in short bursts over a long period of time. takes several seconds to first happen, need ~50ish+ failure for the best effects. yay square AOE cs attacks

self-cast defense and maneuver defense. scales w/ MnM ranks (the defense, not sure on maneuever its worded ambiguousish and that's always hard to tell with hidden rolls)

unimplemented "hard to resist" attack that lowers the targets level (still grants normal exp, etc.)

swarm on demand

cmans:
Burst of Swiftness (burst): Agility/Dexterity bonus (5 ranks) - surge for agi/dex. nice for swinging big weapons or ranged, agi increases UAC strength.
Internal Power (ipower): Health point recovery (5 ranks) - "hi, i'm the worst empath in the world" (heals self, if full on health heals rank 1 wounds. incurs normal herb roundtime)
Ki Focus (kifocus): AS/UAF bonus (3 ranks) - one shot of up to +35 AS or increased UAF (shitty spirit strike for stam instead of mana)
Mystic Strike (mysticstrike): - target gets -10 TD for 10 seconds, up to -30 if they fail the cman attack really bad
Perfect Self (perfectself): Statistics enhancer (5 ranks) - +10 everything passive, baller (need rank 3 of burst AND surge to get it though, expensive as shit)

Martial Stances
Flurry of Blows (flurry): Jab multiple targets in area (monk only) (3 ranks) - your jabs have a chance to hit other targets. EAT THIS 6 DAMAGE BISH

Inner Harmony (iharmony): chance to shake off spell effects (monk only) (3 ranks) - periodically procs to remove a negative spell effect every 30 seconds. 75/100/100% chance at ranks 1/2/3. at rank 3 removes effecat on activation BUT CAN'T BE ACTIVATED WHILE DISABLED

Rolling Krynch Stance (krynch): potentially raise attack tier against second foe (monk only) (3 ranks) - the only thing that makes open UAC remotely viable

Stance of the Mongoose (mongoose): auto retaliatory strike (monk only) (3 ranks) - works with weapons, not unique to monks. but without parry mastery, parry chance is quite low and you dodge most attacks more than anything once 3x dodge making it even worse. does interrupt focused mstrikes so, that's nice. pretty shitty with UAC honestly.

Slippery Mind (slipperymind): chance to avoid certain warding spells (3 ranks) - 27% chance in robes to outright dodge a CS attack rathbone had a good example of why this isn't great on the officials
lets say you have a 60% to be warded, and depending failure die/be fucked up horribly/be annoyed evenly at 20/40/60

the be annoyed you don't care about, but that goes from 20 to ~16%
the fucked up badly and die go from 20-16, total from 40-32

so for giving up krynch, picking up 3 ranks, and being in robes instead of real armor you shave 8% chance off of dying a miserable death or having your hunt end based on warding

[Tgo01]

I'm beginning to understand why monks are the least popular profession :/

[JackWhisper]

I'm beginning to understand why monks are the least popular profession :/

When people, who have been waiting years for revamps to a whole class or even a couple class abilities, all band together to say, "THIS CLASS IS BROKEN! FIX IT FIRST!" someone should have sat the fuck up and gotten right on it. But no, now that people KNOW monks are shit, the GM's suddenly have their hands full fixing OTHER classes.

I LOVE the pally revamp. It completely turned the class into something that is fucking amazing. It really is.

I would trade my class revamp, for a monk overhaul. Dozens, maybe hundreds, of people played monks at the start. And were so disillusioned that a LOT of them quit. And said fuck this game. Now you're left with who... Rowmi? Rowmi rules, but it's the only capped monk I can even think of. That's how bad it is. =(

It's unfair. It needs to be fixed. Before everything else. Simple and straightforward.

[Donquix]

to be fair players are generally full of shit, and it would be hard to meet the expectation. the reality is always somewhere in the middle, but in this case there obviously valid, very real, problems.

i don't think it's as far off as some people think, but there are CLEAR deficits and oversights.

a few small tweaks to existing cmans/spells, make moc work with uac for focused and unfocused attacks and it's close enough people would be happy imo.

[Donquix]

this was interesting...

someone posted on the "good" discussions w/ simu thread to give props to Estild. Which is totally deserved, estild has been way more responsive in this particular round of (whining|feedback|suggestions for improvement|bitching) (pick whichever you feel is most accurate) then has been seen in the past. They basically said "even if nothing happens we really appreciate the talk" and Tamuz responded cryptically with:
"Oh jeez, just wait until you see what he just emailed us about that I can't speak of yet >_>"

so, we'll see. The only thing estild really conceded were valid areas for improvement was that the non-krynch martials are lackluster. Specifically harmony but i have to suspect inner power as well. They did say they thought slippery mind was 'powerful'. Also that vertigo could probably use some love.

Time will tell.

[Warriorbird]

Slippery Mind just...isn't. I'd love to see it all get attention though.

[Androidpk]

Dang, I must be the only one who loves vertigo and thinks it is awesome as is.

[Donquix]

Dang, I must be the only one who loves vertigo and thinks it is awesome as is.

the fact that you need higher endroll to actually get it to be a knockdown (with square CS) and the delayed reaction are what kills it. the only benefit it has over any other mass disable /attack is the fact that the effects linger but it's like...everyone else just kills the stupid thing so that's not really a benefit often exploited.

[Warriorbird]

Dang, I must be the only one who loves vertigo and thinks it is awesome as is.

Vertigo is fine. It reminds me of my absolutely favorite DR trap. The rest of the class needs a lot of attention.

[Donquix]

Vertigo is fine. It reminds me of my absolutely favorite DR trap. The rest of the class needs a lot of attention.

yeah i mean, it's not bad, by any means. if anything is done i bet it would be just making it take effect immediately. it's a small window but, it would kinda suck if you got hit with a spell/rt locked by a maneuver/etc. in that 1-3 seconds before your disable actually, you know, disabled.

[Warriorbird]

yeah i mean, it's not bad, by any means. if anything is done i bet it would be just making it take effect immediately. it's a small window but, it would kinda suck if you got hit with a spell/rt locked by a maneuver/etc. in that 1-3 seconds before your disable actually, you know, disabled.

Yeah, that wouldn't make it to the GM disapproved level of the Bard version but it'd make it more tempting to 1x in spells. The thing that baffles me is how much they think Monks should use it yet they don't suggest 1xing.

[Donquix]

Yeah, that wouldn't make it to the GM disapproved level of the Bard version but it'd make it more tempting to 1x in spells. The thing that baffles me is how much they think Monks should use it yet they don't suggest 1xing.

if you missed it estild said they expect ~.3x for monks. i'm more than double that and still have reliability issues with veritigo (great for bandits, usually). I likely will be at least .5x until 1208 scaling is maxed.

I wonder if they'd do something like TD pushdown from lore? I know transference reduces the margin needed for greater effects already but, sometimes warding in the first place is the main problem.

[Warriorbird]

if you missed it estild said they expect ~.3x for monks. i'm more than double that and still have reliability issues with veritigo (great for bandits, usually). I likely will be at least .5x until 1208 scaling is maxed.

I wonder if they'd do something like TD pushdown from lore? I know transference reduces the margin needed for greater effects already but, sometimes warding in the first place is the main problem.

It'd help. Because the only way I can see my reallocation getting me what I want out of Monk is way above .3x at the current rate.

[Donquix]

It'd help. Because the only way I can see my reallocation getting me what I want out of Monk is way above .3x at the current rate.

Yuuuuuup. I was almost 1x up to 1220, then backed off. I'm at the point now where i'm literally not training anything else until 120. It will be pretty shitty having 0 growth on the physical side for a few levels but, it'll catch up. I'm hitting levels where real squares, even when doubling armor, would be getting into full plate. The TD shit is about to hit the CS fan.

Side benefit of not having to cast 101/107 a million times for a respectable duration is kinda nice too.

[Androidpk]

Guess it depends on the critter. As a monk I've only hunted bandits, grimswarm, the labyrinth and that weird place with the moughilis or whatever, and I never had a problem warding those things.

[time4fun]

Daiyon has the zealot gloves, i want to say there's another pair but the other is definitely in a blackhole if there is. the zealot gloves were the ones i was specifically thinking of when i was like "i know some kickass stuff is out there..." there was also the UD bane gory gloves.

if i wanted to use OHE or THW or even poles and to a lesser extent OHB as vishra can attest to, there are a TON more options. there are a ton more users, so it's kind of a chicken and the egg thing. all the white/black ora stuff, random weighted things, tons more banes, coraseine, blink, etc. All the things released over the years that aren't great but are cool like briar flares, snake weapons, rebalance flares, mechanical flares, etc. obviously you can't make up for a 20 year supply deficit in a single event but even the "best" uac gloves/boots are like...high enchant + flares, outside of the zealot and ud bane. just hoping for some more diversity.

there is a lack of the non-glove weapons as well, there are some random really good ones floating around, but those suuuuuuuck for uac anyway. stop nerfin ma multipiers.

I'm super late to this thread, but...

There are definitely some cool OHBs around, but if I could do it all over again I'd have gone OHE. It's a hell of a process trying to find the good OHBs and then trying to convince people to let them go. Honestly, the only reason why I went the OHB route is that when I returned only one person was selling a black ora weapon (I had a black ora estoc years ago and actually really liked it), and that happened to be an OHB they had recently picked up but decided against using.

The one plus though is when great OHBs show up- you aren't generally competing with many folks for them. Of course the few you ARE competing with tend to be ravenous like me and are often willing to dramatically overpay- again, like me.

[Donquix]

Estild followed up today on the officials. basically just said "appreciate the feedback. we agree some areas could use some love, they're on our list now"

so, that's more of a light at the end of the tunnel then has been seen previously. at least.

[Androidpk]

Estild followed up today on the officials. basically just said "appreciate the feedback. we agree some areas could use some love, they're on our list now"

so, that's more of a light at the end of the tunnel then has been seen previously. at least.

Hope that includes UAC working with MOC.

[Velfi]

A Deathpath is BLAST to play

I just found and was reminded of this while trying to find something else entirely, and I'm still upset about it 6 years later.