The Attic part 2: An Insulating Decision

[Tgo01]

So while the guy was up in my attic checking for the leak I asked him to check the attic insulation to see if was getting low (it's that blown in kind.) He said he thought it was looking a little low but didn't seem too bad but he wasn't an insulation expert and I should call his company for a free quote.

I figured why not, I like free. The guy came out today and said the insulation was at about 10 inches and the state recommends 16 inches for attic insulation. He's going to call back tomorrow with an estimate but what do you think? Should I even bother at all? I think the attic/roof is something like 1500-1600 square feet.

[Astray]

Buy the stuff yourself, insulation is one of the easiest things in the world to install.

[Tgo01]

Buy the stuff yourself, insulation is one of the easiest things in the world to install.

Don't you need some sort of machine to put in blow in insulation though? I really don't know, never messed with insulation before :(

[Astray]

Oh. I just read insulation. I thought it was ye olde pink fluff shit. I don't know about that blow in insulation stuff.

[Grey]

Depends on the material. Fiberglass and cellulose both have pretty long lifespans. "Getting low" has nothing to do with effectiveness. When it was sprayed it was sprayed to a certain thickness and expected to settle to a certain thickness. I wouldn't bother taking this any further, but if you do, try to find the name of the original product and pull the tech data sheet. "State recommendations" don't really mean anything without specifying an R-factor or product. Your guy had no clue what he was talking about.

Sample tech data sheet:
http://www.certainteed.com/resources/30-24-294%20InsulsafeSP.pdf

[Gelston]

Just buy a new house.

[Wrathbringer]

Don't you need some sort of machine to put in blow in insulation though? I really don't know, never messed with insulation before :(

I see you've yet to recover your man card. It's costing you money. Get it back. Shoot for r-50 in your attic. Calculate your necessary material. Call a friend, get some beers and rent the equipment. See if you can con him into being the guy in the attic while you feed it.

[Tgo01]

Depends on the material. Fiberglass and cellulose both have pretty long lifespans. "Getting low" has nothing to do with effectiveness. When it was sprayed it was sprayed to a certain thickness and expected to settle to a certain thickness. I wouldn't bother taking this any further, but if you do, try to find the name of the original product and pull the tech data sheet. "State recommendations" don't really mean anything without specifying an R-factor or product. Your guy had no clue what he was talking about.

Sample tech data sheet:
http://www.certainteed.com/resources/30-24-294%20InsulsafeSP.pdf

That's what kind of confused me about this stuff too. Like, assuming they sprayed 16 inches in when the house was built, wouldn't the same amount of material still be in there? It doesn't go anywhere, right? Does the act of settling and thus lowering somehow affect the effectiveness of insulation?


Just buy a new house.

Well that is one way to go about it.

[Wrathbringer]

That's what kind of confused me about this stuff too. Like, assuming they sprayed 16 inches in when the house was built, wouldn't the same amount of material still be in there? It doesn't go anywhere, right? Does the act of settling and thus lowering somehow affect the effectiveness of insulation?



Well that is one way to go about it.

Yes. That's why you aim for 50 initially. It will settle and r values will drop accordingly over time. Start high.

[Grey]

Yes, the same amount of material is there. Yes, they may have sprayed 16 inches expecting it to settle to 9. Effectiveness is determined by density, thickness and weight. I wasn't project manager on this job, I have no clue what product it is or if it was installed to spec. All I can tell you is that if anybody looks at it and says "yeah, it looks low" is that they're completely full of shit. If you're happy with the current performance don't do a thing. And don't let anybody eyefuck you out of a few hundred dollars.

[Parkbandit]

Yes, the same amount of material is there. Yes, they may have sprayed 16 inches expecting it to settle to 9. Effectiveness is determined by density, thickness and weight. I wasn't project manager on this job, I have no clue what product it is or if it was installed to spec. All I can tell you is that if anybody looks at it and says "yeah, it looks low" is that they're completely full of shit. If you're happy with the current performance don't do a thing. And don't let anybody eyefuck you out of a few hundred dollars.

This is incorrect. Look at the insulation spec sheet you gave in your link. The installed thickness and the settled thickness is exactly the same.

The way insulation works is that it traps air in between the fibers. Crush the fibers, you have less air trapped between them and your r-value goes down.

[Parkbandit]

So while the guy was up in my attic checking for the leak I asked him to check the attic insulation to see if was getting low (it's that blown in kind.) He said he thought it was looking a little low but didn't seem too bad but he wasn't an insulation expert and I should call his company for a free quote.

I figured why not, I like free. The guy came out today and said the insulation was at about 10 inches and the state recommends 16 inches for attic insulation. He's going to call back tomorrow with an estimate but what do you think? Should I even bother at all? I think the attic/roof is something like 1500-1600 square feet.

10" of blown fiberglass insulation would give you an estimated Rvalue of 21 or 22... depending on the actual product. Is there an attic card stapled up by your attic access somewhere? That will tell you the brand / type of insulation that was installed.

Also, what state are you in?

[Grey]

One of these days I'll teach you what the word "minimum" means.

[Tgo01]

Yes. That's why you aim for 50 initially. It will settle and r values will drop accordingly over time. Start high.

50 r value or 50 inches? :O


Yes, the same amount of material is there. Yes, they may have sprayed 16 inches expecting it to settle to 9. Effectiveness is determined by density, thickness and weight. I wasn't project manager on this job, I have no clue what product it is or if it was installed to spec. All I can tell you is that if anybody looks at it and says "yeah, it looks low" is that they're completely full of shit. If you're happy with the current performance don't do a thing. And don't let anybody eyefuck you out of a few hundred dollars.

Well to be fair he did spend some time in the attic, I'm not sure exactly what he was doing up there though. But yeah, that was basically what he said when he was all done; it was getting low. He did say it probably settled a bit but didn't specify if he thought this was expected when they put the stuff in. He just said the state recommends 16 inches and it was at 10 inches and he recommended adding another 6 inches.

I have noticed the gas usage has gone up over the past few years as well as the electric usage but I can't say for sure if this has anything to do with the AC working more or if I'm just using more electricity elsewhere. I'm thinking I might just put this off for now. The house is only 15 years old, seems kind of soon to start adding insulation.

[Parkbandit]

One of these days I'll teach you what the word "minimum" means.

Quoted directly from your link:

This product is noncombustible,noncorrosive and odor free. In addition,InsulSafe SP won’t settle, contains no chemicals to cause mildew and fungus growth, containsno formaldehyde, provides no sustenance for vermin, contains no asbestos, won’t rot or decayand won’t absorb moisture.

[waywardgs]

Just buy a new house.

Gelston is on the right track. You obviously bought a lemon. Burn this moneypit to the ground while you still have a shirt on your back.

[Tgo01]

10" of blown fiberglass insulation would give you an estimated Rvalue of 21 or 22... depending on the actual product. Is there an attic card stapled up by your attic access somewhere? That will tell you the brand / type of insulation that was installed.

Also, what state are you in?

Yeah there was a card stapled in the attic that looked like a ruler. I can check that out later and see if it says what brand and type.

I live in zone 5:

http://www.naima.org/insulation-knowledge-base/residential-home-insulation/how-much-insulation-should-be-installed.html


Gelston is on the right track. You obviously bought a lemon. Burn this moneypit to the ground while you still have a shirt on your back.

:(

[Grey]

Quoted directly from your link:

This product is noncombustible,noncorrosive and odor free. In addition,InsulSafe SP won’t settle, contains no chemicals to cause mildew and fungus growth, containsno formaldehyde, provides no sustenance for vermin, contains no asbestos, won’t rot or decayand won’t absorb moisture.

I'm searching hard to see what your point is here, or the relevance of the bold portion.

[Parkbandit]

Yeah there was a card stapled in the attic that looked like a ruler. I can check that out later and see if it says what brand and type.

I live in zone 5:

http://www.naima.org/insulation-knowledge-base/residential-home-insulation/how-much-insulation-should-be-installed.html



The ruler really won't tell you much except how deep the insulation currently is. Let's assume it's fiberglass and let's assume the guy who said it was 10" was accurate.

The chart you linked said your insulation should be between R38 and R60. With CertainTeed Insulsafe SP (the insulation Grey linked), you need to have a minimum of 14.5" (R38) and up to 22" (R60)

Your home is 15 years old, so it's not all that new and it's certainly worth you installing more insulation. I would check with your local electric company to find out of they give energy saving credits. My electric company gives cash back worth $200 - $350 for having additional insulation installed in your attic, depending on the square footage.

[Parkbandit]

I'm searching hard to see what your point is here, or the relevance of the bold portion.

If you blow insulation to let's say 15" (R38) and 20 years later your insulation is 10", you no longer have an R38 worth of insulation.

[Grey]

Wow. Don't listen to this idiot. He seems to think the tech data sheet I provided as an example of what a tech data sheet is has any bearing on your particular installation. If anything, we knows yours has settled so it can't be the Insulsafe product. You can't determine what your settled thickness is without the tech data sheet of the actual product.

[waywardgs]

When I remodeled my house I did the spray foam insulation in the attic. Love that stuff.

[waywardgs]

Wow. Don't listen to this idiot. He seems to think the tech data sheet I provided as an example of what a tech data sheet is has any bearing on your particular installation. If anything, we knows yours has settled so it can't be the Insulsafe product. You can't determine what your settled thickness is without the tech data sheet of the actual product.

No. PB is correct. Less thickness, less air, lower R value. It's physics.

[Grey]

Of the Insulsafe SP product, not all blown insulation products. You're really an idiot.

[Parkbandit]

Wow. Don't listen to this idiot. He seems to think the tech data sheet I provided as an example of what a tech data sheet is has any bearing on your particular installation. If anything, we knows yours has settled so it can't be the Insulsafe product. You can't determine what your settled thickness is without the tech data sheet of the actual product.

Ok. I've only been installing insulation for 10 years... but hey, you know better because you looked up an insulation spec sheet that one time.

[Parkbandit]

Of the Insulsafe SP product, not all blown insulation products. You're really an idiot.

All insulation works in the same way.

[Tgo01]

The ruler really won't tell you much except how deep the insulation currently is. Let's assume it's fiberglass and let's assume the guy who said it was 10" was accurate.

The chart you linked said your insulation should be between R38 and R60. With CertainTeed Insulsafe SP (the insulation Grey linked), you need to have a minimum of 14.5" (R38) and up to 22" (R60)

Your home is 15 years old, so it's not all that new and it's certainly worth you installing more insulation. I would check with your local electric company to find out of they give energy saving credits. My electric company gives cash back worth $200 - $350 for having additional insulation installed in your attic, depending on the square footage.

I just looked it up, my electric company offers a 125 dollar rebate if I insulate at least 500 square feet of attic space; doesn't specify if that's adding more insulation or adding insulation when I have none.

I'll see what the guy quotes me. Might not be so bad with the rebate.

[Grey]

All insulation works in the same way.

You have no clue whether it's fiberglass or cellulose up there. You're still an idiot.

[Jarvan]

All insulation works in the same way.

No.. He knows of a Magical Insulation that has a higher R value the less there is.

[Parkbandit]

You have no clue whether it's fiberglass or cellulose up there. You're still an idiot.

It doesn't matter. Both materials insulate by capturing air.

It's the air that it captures that makes it an effective insulator.

[rolfard]

just add the pink cotton candy on top. i don't see how mixing your insulation can have any negative results...but i don't recommend listening to someone who doesn't insulate...like me.

[Parkbandit]

I just looked it up, my electric company offers a 125 dollar rebate if I insulate at least 500 square feet of attic space; doesn't specify if that's adding more insulation or adding insulation when I have none.

I'll see what the guy quotes me. Might not be so bad with the rebate.

I don't know the prevailing rates to install insulation in your area.. but get a few quotes. All you have to tell them is that you have R22 in your attic right now and you want to bring it up to R38. You should be able to get an estimate over the phone once you give them your square footage. Just look your home up on a real estate site like zillow.com to get that.

Also, make sure your electric company doesn't require an audit by them to get the rebate... because you will be screwed if you have it installed and then find that out.

[Grey]

It doesn't matter. Both materials insulate by capturing air.

It's the air that it captures that makes it an effective insulator.

It does matter. It matters very much what his specific product is.

[Parkbandit]

It does matter. It matters very much what his specific product is.

Specifically him? Yes. He should find out what he has up there to properly evaluate what R-value he currently has and what would be the best product for him to install more on top of it.

But that's not what we are talking about. You stated that the amount of insulation blown in his home at the time it was installed will settle down, but the Rvalue will be the same.

This is 100% incorrect.

12" of fiberglass insulation that settles down to 6" of fiberglass insulation will have 2 different R-values.

12" of cellulose insulation that settles down to 6" of cellulose insulation will have 2 different R-values.

[Grey]

You stated that the amount of insulation blown in his home at the time it was installed will settle down, but the Rvalue will be the same.

You really are an idiot.

[Parkbandit]

You really are an idiot.

You have me confused with this guy:


Yes, the same amount of material is there. Yes, they may have sprayed 16 inches expecting it to settle to 9. Effectiveness is determined by density, thickness and weight. I wasn't project manager on this job, I have no clue what product it is or if it was installed to spec. All I can tell you is that if anybody looks at it and says "yeah, it looks low" is that they're completely full of shit. If you're happy with the current performance don't do a thing. And don't let anybody eyefuck you out of a few hundred dollars.

Because this is incorrect. The same amount of material in there doesn't denote the R-value of the installed insulation.

[waywardgs]

Insulation, how does it work?

[Grey]

Effectiveness is determined by density, thickness and weight.

Everything in there is entirely correct. Your reading comprehension is about what is to be expected from an installer. That little section is very important for a cellulose installation that may settle, not so important for a non-settling fiberglass installation.


12" of fiberglass insulation that settles down to 6" of fiberglass insulation will have 2 different R-values.

^ This, however, is entirely incorrect. 12" of fiberglass will never settle to 6". You've been providing advice while assuming that he has non-settling insulation that has settled. You're an idiot.

[Grey]

Morons like Parkbandit are the exact reason you need to pull the tech data sheet of the actual installed product.

[Parkbandit]

Everything in there is entirely correct. Your reading comprehension is about what is to be expected from an installer. That little section is very important for a cellulose installation that may settle, not so important for a non-settling fiberglass installation.

^ This, however, is entirely incorrect. 12" of fiberglass will never settle to 6". You've been providing advice while assuming that he has non-settling insulation that has settled. You're an idiot.

Dude, your wrong. I've tried to be nice, but that doesn't change the fact that you are very much incorrect. I've even taken the time to explain to you how insulation works.

But obviously this is way over your head.

[Grey]

What part's wrong? You've been arguing that I said that R factor has nothing to do with thickness then quoted a section that says exactly the opposite. Hey, I just figured out why you're a laborer!

[Parkbandit]

What part's wrong? You've been arguing that I said that R factor has nothing to do with thickness then quoted a section that says exactly the opposite.

I'm not sure I can dumb this down far enough for you to understand without a full set of Crayola Crayons... but hell, I'll try!

In 2000, Tgo01 had his house built and insulation was installed in his attic. Let's pretend that it's installed to a depth of 16" which would be around R35 for generic fiberglass.

Flash forward to 2015: A contractor went up into Tgo01's attic and advised him that his average insulation depth is 10".

You stated for him to not worry about it, because the same amount of material is up in his attic, so the R-value is the same.

This is the part that is wrong.


Hey, I just figured out why you're a laborer!

Yea, you nailed it.

[Grey]

You stated for him to not worry about it, because the same amount of material is up in his attic, so the R-value is the same.

Are you usually delusional or did you just huff too much glue tonight? How the fuck did you make the connection that "because the amount of material is the same the R-value is the same." Take another deep whiff, gorilla glue.

[Parkbandit]

Are you usually delusional or did you just huff too much glue tonight? How the fuck did you make the connection that "because the amount of material is the same the R-value is the same." Take another deep whiff, gorilla glue.

From this moron:


Yes, the same amount of material is there. Yes, they may have sprayed 16 inches expecting it to settle to 9. Effectiveness is determined by density, thickness and weight. I wasn't project manager on this job, I have no clue what product it is or if it was installed to spec. All I can tell you is that if anybody looks at it and says "yeah, it looks low" is that they're completely full of shit. If you're happy with the current performance don't do a thing. And don't let anybody eyefuck you out of a few hundred dollars.

Thanks though.. for letting Tgo01 know you weren't the project manager on his home. I'm sure after your posts tonight, he will sleep better.

[Grey]

You stated for him to not worry about it, because the same amount of material is up in his attic, so the R-value is the same.


Effectiveness is determined by density, thickness and weight.

You are still quoting me saying the opposite of what you say I did. And your advice is still off the mark. You're a fantastic troll though. Horrible representative of the construction industry.

[Velfi]

http://i.imgur.com/0zJcbeO.jpg

[Androidpk]

http://i.imgur.com/0zJcbeO.jpg

Robot please.

[Velfi]

Robot please.

http://i.imgur.com/U1jczAS.jpg

[Androidpk]

http://i.imgur.com/U1jczAS.jpg

Don't make me creep through all your posts trying to find it! Please.

[Ker_Thwap]

So, at this point we have no idea if the insulation even settled or not. It could have been installed at 10" and remained at 10". If it's compressed, waterstained or moldy, it's useless and should be removed. Figure this out before you make any decision.

It's cheap to blow in more insulation. What isn't cheap is the labor for the baffle installations, if you get to some high depths of insulation, you'll want to put up those barriers above the eaves to make sure the ventilation isn't cut off. Rafter chutes, or wind baffles or whatever the hell they're called. If you're remotely athletic and handy, install those yourself, and let them come in and just blow in some extra insulation. Extra insulation is almost always a good investment.

Rolled insulation on top of loose is a bad idea, as it compacts the loose insulation.

[JackWhisper]

All we know now is that...

1) Grey is a moron know-it-all who really knows-very-little.

2) Parkbandit really needs to retire because he's been doing insulation WAY too long.

3) TGO is going to make at least 40 F2P accounts and blow up Gemstone.

[Wrathbringer]

When I remodeled my house I did the spray foam insulation in the attic. Love that stuff.

US too. No more ice dams. :)

[Tgo01]

Is there an attic card stapled up by your attic access somewhere? That will tell you the brand / type of insulation that was installed.

I couldn't find an attic card and the ruler just said to check the attic card for R values :/

Any idea where else they might have hidden the attic card?

Also I think it's the bathroom fan vent that has a couple of tears in it:

7275

Should I just tape it up? Replace it? Not worry about it?

[Parkbandit]

I couldn't find an attic card and the ruler just said to check the attic card for R values :/

Any idea where else they might have hidden the attic card?

Most cellulose is the same. You get 3.7 R-value per inch of cellulose.. so you have about an R37 in your attic currently. It's not the best insulated attic, but you are far from the worst. I probably wouldn't bother.


Also I think it's the bathroom fan vent that has a couple of tears in it:

7275

Should I just tape it up? Replace it? Not worry about it?

I would replace it... that looks too far gone to repair. Are you sure that's the bathroom vent and not some of your ductwork? Usually, the bathroom vent is a metal piece that goes directly up through your roof. That looks like a piece of flex line.

[Tgo01]

Most cellulose is the same. You get 3.7 R-value per inch of cellulose.. so you have about an R37 in your attic currently. It's not the best insulated attic, but you are far from the worst. I probably wouldn't bother.

Awesome. I take it you can tell by the picture that I have cellulose?


Are you sure that's the bathroom vent and not some of your ductwork? Usually, the bathroom vent is a metal piece that goes directly up through your roof. That looks like a piece of flex line.

I just assumed it's the bathroom vent because it looks like it extends out from where the bathroom vent is, I didn't dig down through the insulation but that's where it looked like it connected to. I did feel a rush of warm air for a second when I placed my hand over it and the bathroom vent wasn't on. I suppose I should have turned it on while I was up there.

There are actually several vents that are visible on the outside of the house, one I know for sure is the dryer vent. I think the only thing that vents out through our roof is the pipe I mentioned earlier.

[Tisket]

My contribution to your problem, TG:

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/3f/3f0f58305ba393dc5ab9923f162c749dffea1ed5457ed4c86d 8ab3bad0696f84.jpg

You're welcome.

[JackWhisper]

My contribution to your problem, TG:

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/3f/3f0f58305ba393dc5ab9923f162c749dffea1ed5457ed4c86d 8ab3bad0696f84.jpg

You're welcome.

For once, I freely admit... I don't get it.

[Tisket]

Try it.

[Archigeek]

I couldn't find an attic card and the ruler just said to check the attic card for R values :/

Any idea where else they might have hidden the attic card?

Also I think it's the bathroom fan vent that has a couple of tears in it:

7275

Should I just tape it up? Replace it? Not worry about it?

It's a problem. All that whining about how moisture was getting in your attic? Ding ding ding! What goes out the bathroom vent? Hot, moist air. This condenses in your attic and causes all sorts of problems.

Also, while I don't want to get into the insulation cat fight, there are situations where insulation improves its effective R value via a little bit of compression. Note the word "effective". If you really want to learn about heating/cooling/insulation etc, Joe Lstiburek at Building Science Corp is in my mind, a genius. BSC is full of great info.

http://www.joelstiburek.com/

Edited to add that a lot of bathrooms have flex duct vents. One of my two does. I wouldn't call it ideal by any means, but it gets done. All that moist air leaking into your attic is a bigger problem than your leak in my opinion.

[JackWhisper]

Try it.

What. The fuck. Tisket. ROFL.

[Tgo01]

For once, I freely admit... I don't get it.

A tittie I see :p


It's a problem. All that whining about how moisture was getting in your attic? Ding ding ding! What goes out the bathroom vent? Hot, moist air. This condenses in your attic and causes all sorts of problems.

Do these things just tear open like this eventually or did someone step on it and stretch it out, causing it to tear? I noticed that it looked like part of it was buried under insulation and it runs directly over one of the rafters you would step on to move about in the attic and it continues to run up and over a ledge as seen in the picture. I wonder if someone stepped on it and caused it to get torn on the edge like that.

Not really looking forward to replacing it, it's a pretty long vent and buried under a lot of insulation. Is there anyway to replace just a section or anything? I wonder if there aren't all sorts of tears in this thing, how would I even know?

ETA: I was just thinking on this. I don't doubt that what you're saying about the hot moist air being in my attic is a problem and I should get this vent fixed but I'm curious why this would be different than humid air finding it's way in my attic?

[Parkbandit]

Awesome. I take it you can tell by the picture that I have cellulose?

Yes. Cellulose is comprised of ground up newspaper and cardboard. The other product that would be close to it would be rock wool, but they don't use that in new construction much anymore.



I just assumed it's the bathroom vent because it looks like it extends out from where the bathroom vent is, I didn't dig down through the insulation but that's where it looked like it connected to. I did feel a rush of warm air for a second when I placed my hand over it and the bathroom vent wasn't on. I suppose I should have turned it on while I was up there.

There are actually several vents that are visible on the outside of the house, one I know for sure is the dryer vent. I think the only thing that vents out through our roof is the pipe I mentioned earlier.

It could be.. we just use metal duct work down here to vent bathroom vents to the roof. Straight up. Same with dryer vents and kitchen exhaust fans. Whatever the case, I would replace it.

[Ker_Thwap]

It's a problem. All that whining about how moisture was getting in your attic? Ding ding ding! What goes out the bathroom vent? Hot, moist air. This condenses in your attic and causes all sorts of problems.

Also, while I don't want to get into the insulation cat fight, there are situations where insulation improves its effective R value via a little bit of compression. Note the word "effective". If you really want to learn about heating/cooling/insulation etc, Joe Lstiburek at Building Science Corp is in my mind, a genius. BSC is full of great info.

http://www.joelstiburek.com/

Edited to add that a lot of bathrooms have flex duct vents. One of my two does. I wouldn't call it ideal by any means, but it gets done. All that moist air leaking into your attic is a bigger problem than your leak in my opinion.

Neat theory on the light compression, seems reasonable. Maybe it's a regional thing, but I've never seen anything but a flexible vent duct, that goes through a sidewall or soffit. The roof vent box I Googled looks like it would be a real problem for snow, either causing ice dams, or just getting torn off.

I've also seen bathroom fans vented directly to the attic, which is of course a terrible idea.

[Parkbandit]

Neat theory on the light compression, seems reasonable. Maybe it's a regional thing, but I've never seen anything but a flexible vent duct, that goes through a sidewall or soffit. The roof vent box I Googled looks like it would be a real problem for snow, either causing ice dams, or just getting torn off.

Most cellulose products are installed up to a certain depth, knowing there will be some settling. It's factored in.

[loxe]

blown in cellulose insulation is perfect habitat for rodent nesting...and if it gets damp will encourage mold growth. I highly recommend Roxul (a rock wool) insulation. it is easy to work with, is moisture resistant, will not mold/mildew. and rodents do not like it. Also it will not compress/go flat/ deteriorate, over time (fiberglass and blown in cellulose will), and will retain its "r" value much longer.

[Parkbandit]

blown in cellulose insulation is perfect habitat for rodent nesting...and if it gets damp will encourage mold growth. I highly recommend Roxul (a rock wool) insulation. it is easy to work with, is moisture resistant, will not mold/mildew. and rodents do not like it. Also it will not compress/go flat/ deteriorate, over time (fiberglass and blown in cellulose will), and will retain its "r" value much longer.

Is that a blown in product or just batting?

[Soulance]

We just finished a new roof and had to put in a minimum of the R38 thought they wanted more and we also live in Zone 5. I think they were talking R56 or something like that. Also, is your roof properly ventilated? Attic fans help a ton and keep the air moving. A poorly vented attic can cause trouble. Not sure if all of this has already been mentioned cause I just didn't feel like taking the time to read through it all.

Also, not sure if it was mentioned, but it is pretty easy to do it yourself if you want. I know Homo Depot rents you the machine for free if you buy the blown-in insulation or you can just roll it out yourself.

[Archigeek]

ETA: I was just thinking on this. I don't doubt that what you're saying about the hot moist air being in my attic is a problem and I should get this vent fixed but I'm curious why this would be different than humid air finding it's way in my attic?

I said that this warm moist air getting in your attic is worse than your leak, not humid air. This IS humid air. And the reason it's worse is that a leak is relativel isolated, but moist air will get everywhere before condensing, and that leads to mold. Also, tears like that can lead to far more moisture than people realize, as in many gallons. You may recall that in my first post on the leak I said to go and seal every penetration between the warm living space and the cold attic. This torn duct should be priority number one.

[Archigeek]

blown in cellulose insulation is perfect habitat for rodent nesting...and if it gets damp will encourage mold growth. I highly recommend Roxul (a rock wool) insulation. it is easy to work with, is moisture resistant, will not mold/mildew. and rodents do not like it. Also it will not compress/go flat/ deteriorate, over time (fiberglass and blown in cellulose will), and will retain its "r" value much longer.

Mineral wool does deteriorate. All of these guys claim their stuff doesn't deteriorate or settle and their all wrong. Maybe in ideal conditions, but as soon as someone starts crawling around up there all ideal conditions go out the window.

[Archigeek]

We just finished a new roof and had to put in a minimum of the R38 thought they wanted more and we also live in Zone 5. I think they were talking R56 or something like that. Also, is your roof properly ventilated? Attic fans help a ton and keep the air moving. A poorly vented attic can cause trouble. Not sure if all of this has already been mentioned cause I just didn't feel like taking the time to read through it all.

Also, not sure if it was mentioned, but it is pretty easy to do it yourself if you want. I know Homo Depot rents you the machine for free if you buy the blown-in insulation or you can just roll it out yourself.

Attic fans in a cold climate are just about the worst thing you can do. What happens when you put in an attic fan is that you put the attic space in negative pressure, and then air from higher pressure areas (living space) gets sucked in from every little hole, and we're right back to introducing warm moist air into a cold space where it condenses. So unless you are in a warm climate, or never operate the fan during the winter months, do not install an attic fan.

I agree that a poorly ventilated attic is trouble, but would suggest using lots of vents instead of a fan. Also, if you add insulation, make sure it doesn't block eave vents. This is another common problem.

[Parkbandit]

Attic fans in a cold climate are just about the worst thing you can do. What happens when you put in an attic fan is that you put the attic space in negative pressure, and then air from higher pressure areas (living space) gets sucked in from every little hole, and we're right back to introducing warm moist air into a cold space where it condenses. So unless you are in a warm climate, or never operate the fan during the winter months, do not install an attic fan.

I agree that a poorly ventilated attic is trouble, but would suggest using lots of vents instead of a fan. Also, if you add insulation, make sure it doesn't block eave vents. This is another common problem.

Most attic fans (at least down here in Florida) operate on a thermostat and only turn on when the attic temperature reaches X degrees.

I've never seen an attic fan set up that is constantly turned on... the amount of money you would be attempting to save would be wasted by operating the fan.

[Archigeek]

Most attic fans (at least down here in Florida) operate on a thermostat and only turn on when the attic temperature reaches X degrees.

I've never seen an attic fan set up that is constantly turned on... the amount of money you would be attempting to save would be wasted by operating the fan.

Yeah I have little knowledge of their use in Southern climates, but up north we don't recommend them because our overriding concern is moisture in the winter. We see a lot of the solar powered ones. People have the erroneous impression that they help eliminate moisture during the winter.

[Ker_Thwap]

The only attic fan I've seen was a summer only thing. It was pretty much a box fan, installed between the living space and the attic. It worked crazy good at shoving out the heat from the attic and drawing the cool air up from the basement. But, you had to block it off entirely in the winter with several layers of insulation.

The key is to not push warm moist air, into a cold attic air. If I needed an attic fan for the winter to prevent ice dams, I'd probably try to go with something solar powered and put it on a gable end.

Edit: Yeah, what Archigeek said.

[Latrinsorm]

Sheesh, everything's a sequel these days.

[Tgo01]

So the torn duct is definitely the fan for the bathroom; I placed my hand on the duct and could feel when it was on.

I found the two vents outside that belong to the hallway bathroom fan and the master bathroom fan. After taking these pictures I learned two things:

1) I really need to the clean siding on my house.
2) It appears the master bathroom fan doesn't work too well.

Here is a picture of the vents with both fans off:

7277

And here is with both fans on:

7276

The one on the left is the master bathroom fan. You can kind of see it opens a little bit but not nearly as wide as the hallway bathroom. The bathroom's fan in the basement comes out of the side of the house through a PVC pipe and I can feel the air coming out of that one quite strong.

Even with the tear in the duct I didn't really feel any air coming out of the tear and it appears to be venting to the outside, I thought for sure it wouldn't even open the outside vent.

Is there anyway to know for sure if the master bathroom's fan vent is also torn and is leaking into the attic or if the fan itself needs to be replaced? The master bathroom isn't used too often for showering so it's hard to say if the vent fan is working; I suppose I could just turn the hot water on in the shower and don't turn the fan on to see if the mirror fogs up.

I thought I would be able to see the hot air blowing out of the vents on a cold night, like how you can see your breath on a cold night, but I didn't see any hot air coming out of any of the vents.

[waywardgs]

The mirror will probably fog up regardless. Can you reach those vents to feel if they're blowing?

[Tgo01]

The mirror will probably fog up regardless. Can you reach those vents to feel if they're blowing?

Yeah, I'd probably have to whip out the big ladder though. Might have to wait a few days until the damn snow melts.

[waywardgs]

Yeah, I'd probably have to whip out the big ladder though. Might have to wait a few days until the damn snow melts.

Ladders don't work in the snow?

[Tgo01]

Ladders don't work in the snow?

I suppose they do but there's like 6 feet of snow piled up back there that is almost frozen solid.

You are trying to get me killed aren't you :O

[waywardgs]

I suppose they do but there's like 6 feet of snow piled up back there that is almost frozen solid.

You are trying to get me killed aren't you :O

Duck and roll, Tgo, duck and roll.

[Androidpk]

I've been using a ladder all winter long to get on top of my roof. If anything the snow makes it safer as it anchors the ladder down.

[Ker_Thwap]

So the torn duct is definitely the fan for the bathroom; I placed my hand on the duct and could feel when it was on.

I found the two vents outside that belong to the hallway bathroom fan and the master bathroom fan. After taking these pictures I learned two things:

1) I really need to the clean siding on my house.
2) It appears the master bathroom fan doesn't work too well.

Here is a picture of the vents with both fans off:

7277

And here is with both fans on:

7276

The one on the left is the master bathroom fan. You can kind of see it opens a little bit but not nearly as wide as the hallway bathroom. The bathroom's fan in the basement comes out of the side of the house through a PVC pipe and I can feel the air coming out of that one quite strong.

Even with the tear in the duct I didn't really feel any air coming out of the tear and it appears to be venting to the outside, I thought for sure it wouldn't even open the outside vent.

Is there anyway to know for sure if the master bathroom's fan vent is also torn and is leaking into the attic or if the fan itself needs to be replaced? The master bathroom isn't used too often for showering so it's hard to say if the vent fan is working; I suppose I could just turn the hot water on in the shower and don't turn the fan on to see if the mirror fogs up.

I thought I would be able to see the hot air blowing out of the vents on a cold night, like how you can see your breath on a cold night, but I didn't see any hot air coming out of any of the vents.

You could replace the obviously torn vent, then crawl over the other vent with a moisture meter and compare the relative moisture levels in different parts of your attic...

Seriously, just replace them both while you're up there and covered in insulation dust. Wear eye protection and a dust mask.

Ladders in the snow is a seriously stupid idea at that height, you can't secure the base properly. You don't want to be risking your health on whether or not a bit of packed snow decides to give or not.

[Androidpk]

You could replace the obviously torn vent, then crawl over the other vent with a moisture meter and compare the relative moisture levels in different parts of your attic...

Seriously, just replace them both while you're up there and covered in insulation dust. Wear eye protection and a dust mask.

Ladders in the snow is a seriously stupid idea at that height, you can't secure the base properly. You don't want to be risking your health on whether or not a bit of packed snow decides to give or not.

Push the ladder through the snow to the ground. It isn't rocket science.

[Wrathbringer]

Push the ladder through the snow to the ground. It isn't rocket science.

Ladders!? How do they work?!

[Ker_Thwap]

Push the ladder through the snow to the ground. It isn't rocket science.

Says the man who stood in front of an ice chunk and caught it in the balls.

Edit: In... the... balls!

[Androidpk]

Says the man who stood in front of an ice chunk and caught in the balls.

And that has what to do with how to use a ladder?

[Androidpk]

Ladders!? How do they work?!

Magnets.

[Ker_Thwap]

And that has what to do with how to use a ladder?

It shows that not only are you incapable of giving rocket science advice, that you're also a poor source of ice/snow science advice. Write me an essay on the compression aspects of the exact kind of snow in his back yard, then it's a simple matter of friction coefficients, angles, tensile strength, and a shifting weight.

Or you can just get someone to hold your beer, and give it a try.

[Androidpk]

It shows that not only are you incapable of giving rocket science advice, that you're also a poor source of ice/snow science advice. Write me an essay on the compression aspects of the exact kind of snow in his back yard, then it's a simple matter of friction coefficients, angles, tensile strength, and a shifting weight.

Or you can just get someone to hold your beer, and give it a try.

Again, it's about using a ladder.. just because you're overweight and scared to use a ladder because of snow doesn't mean it is a stupid idea.

[Parkbandit]

So the torn duct is definitely the fan for the bathroom; I placed my hand on the duct and could feel when it was on.

I found the two vents outside that belong to the hallway bathroom fan and the master bathroom fan. After taking these pictures I learned two things:

1) I really need to the clean siding on my house.
2) It appears the master bathroom fan doesn't work too well.

Here is a picture of the vents with both fans off:

7277

And here is with both fans on:

7276

The one on the left is the master bathroom fan. You can kind of see it opens a little bit but not nearly as wide as the hallway bathroom. The bathroom's fan in the basement comes out of the side of the house through a PVC pipe and I can feel the air coming out of that one quite strong.

Even with the tear in the duct I didn't really feel any air coming out of the tear and it appears to be venting to the outside, I thought for sure it wouldn't even open the outside vent.

Is there anyway to know for sure if the master bathroom's fan vent is also torn and is leaking into the attic or if the fan itself needs to be replaced? The master bathroom isn't used too often for showering so it's hard to say if the vent fan is working; I suppose I could just turn the hot water on in the shower and don't turn the fan on to see if the mirror fogs up.

I thought I would be able to see the hot air blowing out of the vents on a cold night, like how you can see your breath on a cold night, but I didn't see any hot air coming out of any of the vents.

Replace the bathroom vent duct and while you're up there just check the master bathroom one to make sure it's in good shape.

[Gnome Rage]

Idk what state you live in, but in Mass they have a program that you can sign up for that has people come out and do this for you subsidized by the government. We paid 25% with a max subsidy of 2,000. I'd look into the possibility of a program like MassSave in your state, idk if anywhere else does it, but it might be worth it. We also ended up with roof vents, light bulbs (free), power strips, programmable thermostat, air sealing in the basement/doors... Basically they do what you house needs most to save energy.

[Ker_Thwap]

Again, it's about using a ladder.. just because you're overweight and scared to use a ladder because of snow doesn't mean it is a stupid idea.

Do you even know the height? How about the slope of the ground in his backyard? Do you know that? Do you know if his litigious mother is visiting this weekend? Do you know how athletic Tgo01 is? What kind of ladder he has? The default weight of all GSers is 400 pounds, until proven otherwise. That's science.

Edit: In... the... balls!

[Androidpk]

Do you even know the height? How about the slope of the ground in his backyard? Do you know that? Do you know if his litigious mother is visiting this weekend? Do you know how athletic Tgo01 is? What kind of ladder he has? The default weight of all GSers is 400 pounds, until proven otherwise. That's science.

Edit: In... the... balls!


Do you think roofing companies stop work during the winter?

[Ker_Thwap]

Do you think roofing companies stop work during the winter?

Is Tgo01 a roofing company? Is there any actual need to check on the vents? Are you stoned right now?

[Androidpk]

Is Tgo01 a roofing company? Is there any actual need to check on the vents? Are you stoned right now?

Yes. Yes. No.

[Ker_Thwap]

Yes. Yes. No.

O, let my sovereign turn away his face
And bid his ears a little while be deaf,
Till I have told this slander of his blood,
How God and good men hate so foul a liar.

In... the... balls.

Edit: I need a new hobby :(

[Back]

Push the ladder through the snow to the ground. It isn't rocket science.

Sounds like a recipe for an ambulance ride to the emergency room.

[Parkbandit]

Idk what state you live in, but in Mass they have a program that you can sign up for that has people come out and do this for you subsidized by the government. We paid 25% with a max subsidy of 2,000. I'd look into the possibility of a program like MassSave in your state, idk if anywhere else does it, but it might be worth it. We also ended up with roof vents, light bulbs (free), power strips, programmable thermostat, air sealing in the basement/doors... Basically they do what you house needs most to save energy.

Usually that is for low incoming households.

[Parkbandit]

Sounds like a recipe for an ambulance ride to the emergency room.

Yup.

It's less about the stability of the ladder (really depends on the snow... a wet, non-packed snow would help stabilize the ladder.. a light packed or ice area would destabilize it) and more about putting wet and snow filled shoes on a slippery ladder.

[Gnome Rage]

Usually that is for low incoming households.

Not in MA, everyone is eligible for the audit and most work. They have special programs for low-income families, such as energy assistance where they pay for part of your heating and stuff, but the insulation and stuff is for anyone. This also includes landlords and businesses, I believe.

[Gelston]

Not in MA, everyone is eligible for the audit and most work. They have special programs for low-income families, such as energy assistance where they pay for part of your heating and stuff, but the insulation and stuff is for anyone. This also includes landlords and businesses, I believe.

You're poor. Shut up!

[Gnome Rage]

You're poor. Shut up!

Me, individually? Yep. Our household? Nah, not technically.

[Gelston]

Me, individually? Yep. Our household? Nah, not technically.

You and your household is full of peasants. POOR POOR POOR.

[Ker_Thwap]

You're poor. Shut up!

It's Mass. They put these kind of programs in for the rich, not for the poor. Get with it.

[Latrinsorm]

Do you think roofing companies stop work during the winter?Belief that you are as competent as a professional? Delusion of grandeur.

Thus, psychosis.

[Velfi]

It has a name, but it's not psychosis there Dr. Freud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

[Androidpk]

Belief that you are as competent as a professional? Delusion of grandeur.

Thus, psychosis.

I've done plenty of work that involves ladders, from roofing to exterior painting and interior dry wall installation.

[Ker_Thwap]

I've done plenty of work that involves ladders, from roofing to exterior painting and interior dry wall installation.

Drywall ladders are like 2 feet tall, get risky! #yolo

[Back]

It has a name, but it's not psychosis there Dr. Freud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

This part of the article made me laugh.


The study was inspired by the case of McArthur Wheeler, a man who robbed two banks after covering his face with lemon juice in the mistaken belief that, because lemon juice is usable as invisible ink, it would prevent his face from being recorded on surveillance cameras.

[Latrinsorm]

It has a name, but it's not psychosis there Dr. Freud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effectThe subject displays the effect at pathological levels. If you don't agree, negotiatior, you too are a tomato. Psychosis.

[Androidpk]

Drywall ladders are like 2 feet tall, get risky! #yolo

Not when you're hanging in rich people's homes with high ceilings they aren't.

[Ker_Thwap]

The subject displays the effect at pathological levels. If you don't agree, negotiatior, you too are a tomato. Psychosis.

The human body is basically a potato clock.

[Latrinsorm]

Finally someone gets it.

[Atlanteax]

Usually that is for low incoming households.

Judging from Tgo01's living conditions and his mother's obsessions with hitting a pay-day, he might qualify.

[kookiegod]

I am putting in r30 batts I got from Lowes for 500 for it.

I got a handyman for general tasks, cost 200 to install it for about 1200 sq feet in the attic.

~Paul

[Parkbandit]

I am putting in r30 batts I got from Lowes for 500 for it.

I got a handyman for general tasks, cost 200 to install it for about 1200 sq feet in the attic.

~Paul

Not sure where you live, but it's cheaper to have a company come out and blow R30 over everything here in Florida.

But I think you might be in MA.. so it's probably 10x more expensive.

[Ker_Thwap]

Not sure where you live, but it's cheaper to have a company come out and blow R30 over everything here in Florida.

But I think you might be in MA.. so it's probably 10x more expensive.

It's snow and ice dam season up north as well. All the "legitimate" contractors are still in price gouging mode.

[kookiegod]

Yep, exactly, was cheaper to get the guy and have the insulation rolls delivered. Most of the quotes I got were 2500+

The self blown in stuff, I don't have the labor as my lady is recovering from ankle surgery and the 12 year old isn't exactly useful.

But I did use the Mass Save program and they did all kinds of things, only the insulation was problematic as there is vermiculate up there and they wouldn't touch it so we just rolled over it, and insulated the roof wells, and put in another vent.


~Paul

[Parkbandit]

Yep, exactly, was cheaper to get the guy and have the insulation rolls delivered. Most of the quotes I got were 2500+

The self blown in stuff, I don't have the labor as my lady is recovering from ankle surgery and the 12 year old isn't exactly useful.

But I did use the Mass Save program and they did all kinds of things, only the insulation was problematic as there is vermiculate up there and they wouldn't touch it so we just rolled over it, and insulated the roof wells, and put in another vent.


~Paul

$2500? Holy shit.. I need to move..

For R30 blown fiberglass... 1200sf.. we charge $550

And that 12 year old would be perfect for attic work! Little and skinny!

[JackWhisper]

$2500? Holy shit.. I need to move..

For R30 blown fiberglass... 1200sf.. we charge $550

And that 12 year old would be perfect for attic work! Little and skinny!


That moment when you see someone's eyeballs disappear and $ signs appear.

[Archigeek]

$2500? Holy shit.. I need to move..

For R30 blown fiberglass... 1200sf.. we charge $550

And that 12 year old would be perfect for attic work! Little and skinny!

You wouldn't be the first contractor to head to MA to exploit their snow woes. Expert ice dam removers here in Minnesota are there now and making bank. It will all be over soon though. We got very little snow this year, so anyone who plows, rakes roofs, or fixes ice dams has been hurting for business.

[Parkbandit]

You wouldn't be the first contractor to head to MA to exploit their snow woes. Expert ice dam removers here in Minnesota are there now and making bank. It will all be over soon though. We got very little snow this year, so anyone who plows, rakes roofs, or fixes ice dams has been hurting for business.

There are scumbag contractors all over the place. I had an elderly lady call me to find out how much it would be for insulation removal and installation.. and when I told her that it would be about $1500, she started to sob a little bit. She had signed a contract with a pest elimination company for $7,000 to do the same thing, plus put up 2 traps in her attic (that caught nothing)

[JackWhisper]

There are scumbag contractors all over the place. I had an elderly lady call me to find out how much it would be for insulation removal and installation.. and when I told her that it would be about $1500, she started to sob a little bit. She had signed a contract with a pest elimination company for $7,000 to do the same thing, plus put up 2 traps in her attic (that caught nothing)

The sadness of that situation is just repulsive. =(

[Ker_Thwap]

There are scumbag contractors all over the place. I had an elderly lady call me to find out how much it would be for insulation removal and installation.. and when I told her that it would be about $1500, she started to sob a little bit. She had signed a contract with a pest elimination company for $7,000 to do the same thing, plus put up 2 traps in her attic (that caught nothing)

A lot of elderly people are very trusting. Stand around for an hour and listen to their life story, be a bit charming, then charge them double the prevailing rate. My dad paid triple the prevailing rate for hurricane windows, and he's still convinced the contractor is a great guy who would never rip him off.

[JackWhisper]

A lot of elderly people are very trusting. Stand around for an hour and listen to their life story, be a bit charming, then charge them double the prevailing rate. My dad paid triple the prevailing rate for hurricane windows, and he's still convinced the contractor is a great guy who would never rip him off.

Damnit Thwap. I can't make a comical rejoinder without insulting your Father. I abstain.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Rjn6W9jYk

[kookiegod]

Yah, every snow storm, we have a team effort, the lady does the cars (snow off and moving them for the plow), the kiddo does the deck, , and I rake the roof, battleplan SNOW, but it works, no ice dams. Sand the deck and the walking area to the cars,

With all the snow in MA in the last 8 weeks, its been very efficient.

As far as the other comments, yah, they overcharge like heck up here, so after an energy audit, just decided to have my guy do it and I can tell its already warmer in here. Need some air sealing next around windows (they at least 20 years old), and some other stuff, but all the lights are LEDs, water heater is wrapped, pipes are wrapped, appliances are all energy star, just trying to save a buck where I can. Heck, I refing my house/g2u loan into one package and my banker came over and gonna save a fortune.

But seriously, I seen people up here want 300-500 to shovel a roof. I can rake 8 feet around my house in less than 30 mins. Its silly.

[Ker_Thwap]

Damnit Thwap. I can't make a comical rejoinder without insulting your Father. I abstain.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Rjn6W9jYk

Eh, he used to be a very bright guy about these things. So, yeah, he's an idiot, but he wasn't always one.

He'd rather be stubborn and keep the memory of friendship from the con man and pay thousands extra, than admit that 1) he got suckered and 2) that he loses a friend. Old people!

[Androidpk]

My moms house had ice dam problems and she had someone come out to break it up. $600 for one hour and the guy did a shitty job. Ever since then I've been going over once a week and doing it myself.

[Wrathbringer]

My moms house had ice dam problems and she had someone come out to break it up. $600 for one hour and the guy did a shitty job. Ever since then I've been going over once a week and doing it myself.

For $300?

[Androidpk]

For $300?

$599.

[Latrinsorm]

We got very little snow this year-_-

[Tgo01]

I'm still waiting on the estimate from this guy, for some reason he couldn't tell me it over the phone and has to mail it to me, maybe he breaks it down or something, I dunno.

Anyways I found an old bill from 2012 and noticed that during the winter months our gas usage has definitely gone up, for months November through Feb of 2012 compared to Nov through Feb of 2015 the gas usage has gone up 12.3 units, at 7.80 per unit that's almost 100 dollars. Then again it was colder these past few months compared to 2012.

November 2011: 5.3 units/44 degrees average
November 2014: 8.6 units/35 degrees average

December 2011: 9 units/35 degrees average
December 2014: 10.8 units/33 degrees average

Jan 2012: 10.5 units/29 degrees average
Jan 2015: 13 units/22 degrees average

Feb 2012: 9.1 units/32 degrees average
Feb 2015: 13.8 units/14 degrees average

The only things that use gas are the hot water heater and the furnace and I don't think the hot water heater is going out because during the months the furnace isn't in use the gas usage actually went down slightly in 2015. I suppose the gas usage went up because of the colder months, really doesn't look like it's because of a lack of insulation. That's just my non-expert opinion of course.

[Tgo01]

Finally got the estimate. 1500 dollars to blow in an extra 8 inches of insulation to about a 1500 square foot area. The estimate says it would bring the R value up to about 50.

1500 dollars sounds kind of high. Think this guy is trying to take me for a ride?

[JackWhisper]

Finally got the estimate. 1500 dollars to blow in an extra 8 inches of insulation to about a 1500 square foot area. The estimate says it would bring the R value up to about 50.

1500 dollars sounds kind of high. Think this guy is trying to take me for a ride?

Did he give you an estimate on the hours it'd take? 1500 square feet should be a 3 hour job, maybe less if he's got people with him. Just saying.

[JackWhisper]

Then again, I'm in California. People file lawsuits if they even THINK you're padding the bill. So shit gets done at a good pace.

[Parkbandit]

Finally got the estimate. 1500 dollars to blow in an extra 8 inches of insulation to about a 1500 square foot area. The estimate says it would bring the R value up to about 50.

1500 dollars sounds kind of high. Think this guy is trying to take me for a ride?

I would charge you about a third that price... and I would be using the more expensive blown fiberglass insulation.

Just call 2 or 3 other insulation installers in your area to figure out if he's ripping you off or not.

[JackWhisper]

I would charge you about a third that price... and I would be using the more expensive blown fiberglass insulation.

Just call 2 or 3 other insulation installers in your area to figure out if he's ripping you off or not.

How long would it take you? By yourself? Just curious.

[Tgo01]

Did he give you an estimate on the hours it'd take? 1500 square feet should be a 3 hour job, maybe less if he's got people with him. Just saying.

No estimate for how many hours it would take. But the estimate did say the price included cleaning up all debris. That's nice of them to clean up their own mess when they're done :D


I would charge you about a third that price... and I would be using the more expensive blown fiberglass insulation.

Just call 2 or 3 other insulation installers in your area to figure out if he's ripping you off or not.

That's a good idea. If that's standard price for my area then it hardly seems worth it. Maybe in a few more years or something.

[Parkbandit]

How long would it take you? By yourself? Just curious.

Insulation is a 2 person job... someone in the attic and someone feeding material into the machine.

Using one of our trucks, it would take 20-30 minutes. Using a Home Depot electric one.. probably double that.

[Parkbandit]

That's a good idea. If that's standard price for my area then it hardly seems worth it. Maybe in a few more years or something.

$1500 would take you a long time to make a return on your investment... since you already have about an R38.

Don't forget to check with your electric and/or gas provider and find out if you are eligible for any rebates for adding extra insulation like this.

[JackWhisper]

Insulation is a 2 person job... someone in the attic and someone feeding material into the machine.

Using one of our trucks, it would take 20-30 minutes. Using a Home Depot electric one.. probably double that.

Hour long, two dudes... 2-3 hours for cleanup total hours...... 3 hour job.

Yeah they're totes ripping you off, I say.

[Tgo01]

$1500 would take you a long time to make a return on your investment... since you already have about an R38.

Yeah I was figuring 1500 dollars if I had no insulation up there at all. 1500 to add 8 inches on top of 10 inches seem excessive.

[JackWhisper]

Yeah I was figuring 1500 dollars if I had no insulation up there at all. 1500 to add 8 inches on top of 10 inches seem excessive.

Are you considering doing this yourself? Or just shopping around now for the price that rapes you the least?

For once, I'm glad I don't live in a heavy snow state. I'd be really upset right now.

[Tgo01]

Holy shit.

I found a calculator from Lowe's that estimates my current R value, which they say is about 35 (you're good PB) and I put in how many square feet I have to cover and what I want my R value to end up being, I put in their estimate of 50 and it said I would need to buy 31 bags of insulation and I was like well shit, 31 bags sounds like a lot.

So I click the insulation they recommend and it's 6 dollars per bag. So let's say about 200 dollars in material...the other 1300 dollars is labor then?

Yeah, no. Think I'll be passing on this.


Are you considering doing this yourself? Or just shopping around now for the price that rapes you the least?

For once, I'm glad I don't live in a heavy snow state. I'd be really upset right now.

If 1500 dollars is the going rate around here then I'd rather attempt to do it myself. For now I think I'll just hold off on adding more insulation.

[Ker_Thwap]

Finally got the estimate. 1500 dollars to blow in an extra 8 inches of insulation to about a 1500 square foot area. The estimate says it would bring the R value up to about 50.

1500 dollars sounds kind of high. Think this guy is trying to take me for a ride?

Are they also installing the vent baffle things? Does your roof have a lot of angles, corners and crawl spaces? But, yeah, always get three written quotes, let them know they're competing, make sure they specify the material type and amount.

Using the Lowes calculator, it's 31 bags at $13 a bag, for $400 Add in delivery at $50 that's a lot of bulk. Machine rental, another $50. Labor, two people at $25 an hour, 4 hours ish, but it's half a work day for the job, including time to actually go get the materials. That's about $800 profit. I'm not against profit, but it's half a day for the job, including time to actually go get the materials. I've left out some figures like gas, insurance, taxes. I've also left out some economies of scale that would lower the price. If they're installing the baffles, it's probably a decent price, otherwise, it's a bit too much.

I'd also make sure that you tell them it's not a rush job, they can do it in the summer when they're less busy. Planning on keeping the house? $1,500 will take you a while to recoup, there might be better ways to invest that in your property. Free energy audits in your state?

[Tgo01]

No baffle installation, the guy said the baffles up there were in good shape.

I wouldn't say the roof has a lot of angles and corners, seems like a pretty standard roof and attic.

[Parkbandit]

Holy shit.

I found a calculator from Lowe's that estimates my current R value, which they say is about 35 (you're good PB) and I put in how many square feet I have to cover and what I want my R value to end up being, I put in their estimate of 50 and it said I would need to buy 31 bags of insulation and I was like well shit, 31 bags sounds like a lot.

So I click the insulation they recommend and it's 6 dollars per bag. So let's say about 200 dollars in material...the other 1300 dollars is labor then?

Yeah, no. Think I'll be passing on this.



If 1500 dollars is the going rate around here then I'd rather attempt to do it myself. For now I think I'll just hold off on adding more insulation.

Go to that insulation manufacturer's website and see if they have a recommended contractor. Some do, some don't. Call them for an estimate.

[Tgo01]

Go to that insulation manufacturer's website and see if they have a recommended contractor. Some do, some don't. Call them for an estimate.

Good idea. I'll check that out when I get home.

[Archigeek]

Also, if you plan to do it yourself, Lowes and HD are always running discounts on insulation in early fall, though their equipment may be in high demand at that time too. One of my first jobs as a teen was loading the hopper for an insulation installer. I think he paid me $8/hour, which I thought was pretty great at the time, especially for a job that's pretty easy. It's the guy in the attic who's doing the harder job.

[JackWhisper]

It's the guy in the attic who's doing the harder job.

Seriously, this. And don't let a heavyset guy do the installation. No matter WTF people say, there's not a lot of circulation up there with a guy breathing. My friend Randall, he had a heavyset guy go up, in summer, into his attic, to blow insulation... this fucking guy passed out and fell through the fucking ceiling.

Enter legal battle. This motherfucker. Jesus Christ. Randall won, but it was a whole fucking thing.

[Ker_Thwap]

Seriously, this. And don't let a heavyset guy do the installation. No matter WTF people say, there's not a lot of circulation up there with a guy breathing. My friend Randall, he had a heavyset guy go up, in summer, into his attic, to blow insulation... this fucking guy passed out and fell through the fucking ceiling.

Enter legal battle. This motherfucker. Jesus Christ. Randall won, but it was a whole fucking thing.

Yeah, but if the thin guy goes up there and passes out, no one notices. Then they all just wander off, and a few weeks later something starts to stink in your attic, and you find some dead thin guy that you have to dispose of.

[Tgo01]

Yeah, but if the thin guy goes up there and passes out, no one notices. Then they all just wander off, and a few weeks later something starts to stink in your attic, and you find some dead thin guy that you have to dispose of.

What's the R rating of a dead skinny guy?

[JackWhisper]

What's the R rating of a dead skinny guy?

Like 8, if he's wearing flannel.

He'll compress to a 5 though.

[Archigeek]

Like 8, if he's wearing flannel.

He'll compress to a 5 though.

Weird trivia bit: air film has R-value. IE: when you figure out the R value of a wall, you start with air film, then the drywall, insulation, drywall, and air film on the other side. I haven't done detailed calc's like that in a few years, but it can matter on giant commercial buildings. So yeah, everything has R (the R stands for thermal Resistance) value, even dead guys.

But, (there's always a but), you should calc out for the studs and there's a formula for determining over-all effective R-value that has significant penalties for things like studs that interfere with the continuity of the insulation envelope, so the R-value benefit of a dead guy (skinny or fat) is penalized, unless you spread him evenly.

[JackWhisper]

Hear that TGO? Get your hacksaw. We gotta spread this guy out evenly.

[Sean]

Weird trivia bit: air film has R-value. IE: when you figure out the R value of a wall, you start with air film, then the drywall, insulation, drywall, and air film on the other side. I haven't done detailed calc's like that in a few years, but it can matter on giant commercial buildings. So yeah, everything has R (the R stands for thermal Resistance) value, even dead guys.

But, (there's always a but), you should calc out for the studs and there's a formula for determining over-all effective R-value that has significant penalties for things like studs that interfere with the continuity of the insulation envelope, so the R-value benefit of a dead guy (skinny or fat) is penalized, unless you spread him evenly.

Or you could use a continuous insulation out board of the studs. I'm working on a senior housing project that is using HUD money and they required it to be energy star rated and the R-19 cavity insulation end up coming back around R-7 when you accounted for the studs so we had to reduce the air space (which also has an R-value) and install a rigid insulation board on the outside face.

[Tgo01]

Just stopped by Home Depot and they give a free 24 hour rental of the machine if I buy the insulation from them.

[JackWhisper]

Just stopped by Home Depot and they give a free 24 hour rental of the machine if I buy the insulation from them.

Did you get the hacksaw? There's a guy dead up in the attic. We need to space him evenly before he starts to bloat.

[Archigeek]

Did you get the hacksaw? There's a guy dead up in the attic. We need to space him evenly before he starts to bloat.

Waiiiiit. Bloated would increase the R-value.

[Archigeek]

Or you could use a continuous insulation out board of the studs. I'm working on a senior housing project that is using HUD money and they required it to be energy star rated and the R-19 cavity insulation end up coming back around R-7 when you accounted for the studs so we had to reduce the air space (which also has an R-value) and install a rigid insulation board on the outside face.

Yes. That would work.