To Bolt or Not to Bolt

[Lady Sylvan]

Hello clerics,

I have been trying my luck at my elven cleric and have found her quite fun to play. She is about to turn 32 using an Eonake falchion and x4 vultite shield; This hunting style has kept her alive and safe. But now with the free fixskills are fast approaching, I think I want to change her to a runestaff user or a brawl/shield (Open hand) caster.

My questions are:

1. I see some clerics train in spell aim. Is that an effective hunting style at later levels?

2. I see that some clerics over train in cleric spells (+21 ranks). How effective is that in the long run?
And how will over training early hurt my playability?

3. How is the DS of a cleric with 8-10 magic ranks compared to a brawl and x5 shield user? (yes im enchanting a shield for her soon.)

Thanks and I eagerly await your input.

[Soulance]

Hey Lady Nairena,

I have used 302 and a runestaff since the beginning and have never had a problem with hunting. I did keep up with training atleast 10-20 above level on Cleric Base. Plus, never seemed to run out of mana until I started adding 240 for more fun! During these latest bandit runs at cap, I see other Clerics using Fire Spirit and it seems pretty cool as it explodes and blossoms to other targets. I'm hoping, once I cap, to start bringing up spell aiming as if you use web and then fire spirit, you've got quite a dangerous combo spell there.

With 319 now added, we're nearly untouchable. ;)

The only thing that I think has helped me over time was that I started being a Smite Cleric and then switched to Bane later in life - I think around my 50's or 60's. The amount of undead seems to fall off later in life. 302 doesn't hit it's "opposite" very well and gets penalized pretty good. So if you're Smite and try to hit a living creature, it doesn't hit it so well - and vice versa with Bane. That just means you'd have to convert which can be a pain. I've done it a few times, but have also tossed a LOT of silvers into that dumb coffer.

[maags]

1. I see some clerics train in spell aim. Is that an effective hunting style at later levels?

Maags trained SA from day one and never regretted it. It helped when hunting grims with friends and at cap it's fun with bandits like Soulance mentioned. At cap, there are some critters I can only kill with holy water or fire, so I love bolting. Plus it's just fun to have different options.

2. I see that some clerics over train in cleric spells (+21 ranks). How effective is that in the long run?
And how will over training early hurt my playability?

Having +21 cleric ranks maxes your CS. I think you just have to decide how early to push for it/what to sacrifice and if you train SA, you probably wont have +21 early on. I didn't have +21 till way late and didn't regret it, but not everyone would agree with that plan.

3. How is the DS of a cleric with 8-10 magic ranks compared to a brawl and x5 shield user? (yes im enchanting a shield for her soon.)

Can't really answer this but I don't think you'll be happy brawling because you can only 1x in brawl which is pretty useless, sadly.

[Soulance]

The nice thing is you can unlearn all your shield and OHE points to use elsewhere. The runestaff offers good DS and Bolt Deflection with no training other than your spells, MIU, AS so it should free up a bunch for addition spell training. Unless you still want to use a Shield which you can use a runestaff and shield for additional DS though I think it cuts down on your casting if the rumors are true.

[Luftstreitkräfte]

1. if you're going to bolt use 513 imbeds

2. use 306 vs undead and get 30 ranks of religion lore. the spell absolutely destroys undead with the secondary acid flare. pair it with a sancted staff or fire/acid flaring.

3. 111 costs a lot of mana. works good on stuff like griffins, etc.

4. train up 215 ASAP then dump points into cleric so you get more bonus from defensive spells and spells like benediction. also using 301 is nice as a disable before bolting.

also read this carefully: http://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/spelllist.asp?circle=7

-Zentalin

[Lady Sylvan]

I am still deciding on a deity to follow. I am leaning towards Imaera or Koar's wife.. the goddess of wisdom and knowledge.. Lumnis I think. I like the idea of having two kinds of hunting options. I plan on going x2 in spell aim. :-)

Maags is my inspiration.

[GuildRat]

Armor Use..........................| 130 35
Shield Use.........................| 201 101
Brawling...........................| 201 101
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Arcane Symbols.....................| 160 60
Magic Item Use.....................| 160 60
Harness Power......................| 202 102
Spirit Mana Control................| 140 40
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 62 13
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 201 101
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 99 23
Perception.........................| 201 101
Climbing...........................| 105 25
Swimming...........................| 120 30

Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 60

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 65

Spell Lists
Cleric.............................| 166

600 DS in offensive (full mage and ranger spells and some high-end gear), never worried about being disarmed and 317 hits like a freight train.

Once I've finished 303 spell ranks, I'll decide whether I want SA or to work on the other lores to improve my chrisms. I'm really leaning towards SA tho just for the shear fun of it.

[everan]

Here's a contrasting look from a pure smite. I'm hardly optimized, but I do all right. This is probably most useful to see what common areas we focus on.

Armor Use..........................| 132 36
Combat Maneuvers...................| 96 22
Thrown Weapons.....................| 5 1
Physical Fitness...................| 211 111
Arcane Symbols.....................| 201 101
Magic Item Use.....................| 201 101
Harness Power......................| 235 135
Spirit Mana Control................| 210 110
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 130 35
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 203 103
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 153 53
Survival...........................| 206 106
Stalking and Hiding................| 35 7
Perception.........................| 201 101
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 150 50
First Aid..........................| 230 130
Trading............................| 140 40
Pickpocketing......................| 14 2

Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 46
Minor Spiritual....................| 50
Cleric.............................| 166

541 DS at 80% with a 4x runestaff and 8x armor self-cast. I hunt the rift so other spell ups aren't useful.

[Whirlin]

I trained in spell aiming until I was level 40 or so, and I recommend it for newer clerics for the following reasons:
1) TD values were poorly handled in the GS3>GS4 migration. CS's highly level-based growth makes uphunting on CS incredibly difficult, while TD values seem as random as spaghetti against walls.
2) Wands available are predominantly wizard bolt spells. To help supplement low level mana, you don't want to be forced into a particular rare wand type. Best be able to use them all!
3) If your cleric is your alt, or you're not a terribly active player, 40-50 is kind of the place you'll reach in level after about a year of playing. Depending on when you started, this may coincide with your annual fixskills, or come close to that timeframe.
4) Post Level 40, you can dedicate more spell research solely to CS building, rather than unlocking additional spells, etc. You've gotten most of that overhead out of the way.

All of that being said, with the release of 319 as an incredibly potent CS based defense, I think that the values of retaining your ability to bolt on the long-term is diminished. While based upon the last two posts, it's clear that clerics don't really have any DS concerns, there's no reason not to train in something that's both an offensive AND defensive powerhouse.
As far as AS growth is concerned, the lack of continue bolt AS scaling beyond initial bonuses from 307, 211, 215 diminish its power in long-run compared to a sorcerer's 715 or a wizard's 513. This will start to be more apparent around the 50s or so. Given the relative training and mana costs of bolt based cleric spells, I find it not worthwhile to continue to persue bolting post-50.

[GuildRat]

The only reason I wished that I'd retained SA into the 60s was the Skull Temple....it's impossible to ward dogmatists and I lost out on a good amount of bounties because of it. That being said...if you're not hunting Illistim...what Whirlin said is right on target.

I will, however, advocate brawl/shield all day long. No runestaff=dead cleric...I see it all the time.

[Lady Sylvan]

Thank you all for your replies. I like the idea of a shield/brawl cleric so I don't have to worry about disarm or weapon fire. I also like seeing that going CS (+21 cleric spells) and smiting can work at later levels. The replies tell me that there is no wrong way to train your cleric--just no swinging cleric--and that as long as your having fun, you can level up with ease.

My cleric could possibly become my main. I play my characters based on my mood when I go to log into GS4. I have mostly played clerical/healer type toons in the previous games I played. Picking Nairena as a wizard almost didn't happen; She could have very well been a 63 cleric.

Again. Thanks for the replies.

[JackWhisper]

A swinging cleric works fine... I got mine to 72 before I quit, but I only quit swinging *Went to shield/brawl channel casting* because I couldn't find a proper enchanted eonake crit weighted weapon. Really... really annoying to find that sorta thing.

[Aganii]

As far as AS growth is concerned, the lack of continue bolt AS scaling beyond initial bonuses from 307, 211, 215 diminish its power in long-run compared to a sorcerer's 715 or a wizard's 513.

307 was changed to continue to add bolt AS but not physical AS. The bolt AS values among the pures were brought in line somewhat with the 307 change and that star curse.

[Whirlin]

307 was changed to continue to add bolt AS but not physical AS. The bolt AS values among the pures were brought in line somewhat with the 307 change and that star curse.
You're right, I missed that.

I don't think it changes the total outcome of my arguments. In fact, when I was writing that post, I had actually gone back to write it in! It's a nice-to-have, but not necessary. I'd probably be the first thing that I pick up post-cap, or maybe start training it once I'm comfortable with my lores, at Cleric+21, and MnS/MjS 2/3rds.

I will add one additional caveat that I thought of though. If you're a Bane Cleric, Spell aiming becomes more attractive due to 302 being anti-living, adding to the relative power of 306 versus 302 for hunting undead. However, if you're a Smite cleric, 302 is absolutely advantageous against undead.