Pres. Obama's Community College Plan

[Fallen]

Today, the President unveiled a new proposal (https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153120229619238): Make two years of community college free for responsible students across America.In our growing global economy, Americans need to have more knowledge and more skills to compete -- by 2020, an estimated 35 percent of job openings will require at least a bachelor's degree, and 30 percent will require some college or an associate's degree. Students should be able to get the knowledge and the skills they need without taking on decades' worth of student debt.
The numbers:

If all 50 states choose to implement the President's new community college proposal, it could:


Save a full-time community college student $3,800 in tuition per year on average
Benefit roughly 9 million students each year

Under President Obama's new proposal, students would be able to earn the first half of a bachelor's degree, or earn the technical skills needed in the workforce -- all at no cost to them.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/image/010815_community_college_520.jpg (http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/image/010815_community_college_full.jpg)
The requirements:



What students have to do: Students must attend community college at least half-time, maintain a 2.5 GPA, and make steady progress toward completing their program.
What community colleges have to do: Community colleges will be expected to offer programs that are either 1) academic programs that fully transfer credits to local public four-year colleges and universities, or 2) occupational training programs with high graduation rates and lead to in-demand degrees and certificates. Community colleges must also adopt promising and evidence-based institutional reforms to improve student outcomes.
What the federal government has to do: Federal funding will cover three-quarters of the average cost of community college. Participating states will be expected to contribute the remaining funds necessary to eliminate the tuition for eligible students.

Expanding technical training programs:

President Obama also proposed the new American Technical Training Fund, which will expand innovative, high-quality technical training programs across the country. Specifically, the fund will award programs that:


Have strong employer partnerships and include work-based learning opportunities
Provide accelerated training
Accommodate part-time work



I don't know how I feel about this idea. Community college is a useful starting point for students looking to further their higher education cheaply and efficiently, but it can also be a complete waste of time if you aren't dedicated and have an end-goal in mind. I'd like to hear thoughts on this from the PC. I can't imagine most here would view the plan favorably.

[Viekn]

Don't get me wrong, I am not a socialist in any way shape or form. But this idea actually sounds good to me. You are right that for the wrong student, it can be a complete waste of time. And I think that's why they put the stipulation on it that students have to be going at least half time and maintain a 2.5 or better GPA, to help weed out the ones that aren't right for it.

But I think there's a large portion of society that could benefit from a two-year degree but can't even afford to get that, let alone a 4 year one. For those people that would end up being a better member of society; meaning because they are able to get a better job, they won't use as much social services now and will end up paying more in taxes into the system, because they are now able to get a 2 year degree, I think it's awesome.

[Parkbandit]

Free {Insert item du jour} is a right.

[Gelston]

It is perfect for a management job at Applebee's.

It depends on the community college though. The one here, Bossier Parish Community College, actually has a better graphics department then than LSU Shreveport does. This is due to them making a bunch of movies and crap around here and the production companies giving the College shit tons of money to get all the equipment (so they can also use it.)

[Parkbandit]

Don't get me wrong, I am not a socialist in any way shape or form. But this idea actually sounds good to me. You are right that for the wrong student, it can be a complete waste of time. And I think that's why they put the stipulation on it that students have to be going at least half time and maintain a 2.5 or better GPA, to help weed out the ones that aren't right for it.

But I think there's a large portion of society that could benefit from a two-year degree but can't even afford to get that, let alone a 4 year one. For those people that would end up being a better member of society; meaning because they are able to get a better job, they won't use as much social services now and will end up paying more in taxes into the system, because they are now able to get a 2 year degree, I think it's awesome.

If they are too lazy to get a job to pay for community college to begin with.. what makes you think they will look for one when they get out?

[Warriorbird]

One of two out of like twenty education plans of Obama's that I like. I think the GPA requirements should be higher though.

[Parkbandit]

It is perfect for a management job at Applebee's.

A 2 year degree from a community college can be an inexpensive stepping stone to a 4 year degree at a real college.

[Gelston]

A 2 year degree from a community college can be an inexpensive stepping stone to a 4 year degree at a real college.

Or an important stepping stone for a management position at Applebee's.

[Parkbandit]

Or an important stepping stone for a management position at Applebee's.

Free {management jobs at Applebee's} should be a right.

[Gelston]

Free {management jobs at Applebee's} should be a right.

I wouldn't say a right. More like a privilege.

[Warriorbird]

The main problem is that it will diminish the economic signal effect (such that it is) of going to community college.

[Gelston]

The main problem is that it will diminish the economic signal effect (such that it is) of going to community college.

I don't really think so. Community College is hella cheap already. I don't think it'd really open the floodgates into Community College. People who would take advantage of this program are probably already going, will be going, or have gone anyways.

[Parkbandit]

I wouldn't say a right. More like a privilege.

There aren't many people who would consider working at Applebee's a "privilege". It's not even a "privilege" when I have to go there to eat their shitty food.

[Gelston]

There aren't many people who would consider working at Applebee's a "privilege". It's not even a "privilege" when I have to go there to eat their shitty food.

No, that is called enhanced interrogation techniques.

[SashaFierce]

I don't really think so. Community College is hella cheap already. I don't think it'd really open the floodgates into Community College. People who would take advantage of this program are probably already going, will be going, or have gone anyways.


I start my second year at a Community College next Monday. It has cost me nothing to attend because of Federal Pell Grants. I usually have money left over after paying for classes and books, so they actually pay me to go to school.

[Gelston]

I start my second year at a Community College next Monday. It has cost me nothing to attend because of Federal Pell Grants. I usually have money left over after paying for classes and books, so they actually pay me to go to school.

Hah, yeah, I guess a Pell Grant would cover most Community College tuitions and books.

[Androidpk]

I like the idea to be honest.

[Whirlin]

So... while I like the concept, I think it will fall a little flat, predominantly due to the fact that they only need to ensure that the credits transfer to LOCAL PUBLIC colleges. There is no requirement for transfer of credits to private colleges, or non-local public colleges. So, you can't really use this as a stepping stone to get into MIT or Harvard, etc.

This may result in further dividing private and public colleges. I wouldn't be surprised in private colleges stopped accepting the transfer credits, so they can milk all four years of tuition.

I also agree the GPA requirement is a little low... while GPA is widely influenced by the school/professors, I don't think it's unreasonable to request a 3.0 GPA for subsidies.

[Parkbandit]

No, that is called enhanced interrogation techniques.

I WON'T TALK!

[Johnny Five]

Fuck College, Street Knowledge.

http://www.jonathanferraragallery.com/dynamic/images/detail/Dan_Tague_THUG_LIFE_3886_76.jpg

[Gelston]

I WON'T TALK!

One Fiesta Lime Chicken coming right up.

[Androidpk]

Some of the food at Appleby is pretty good, like the beer pretzels and cheese dip.

[Gelston]

Some of the food at Appleby is pretty good, like the beer pretzels and cheese dip.

You have very questionable tastes in life.

If I'm going for cheap but more than fast food eating though, I'll hit Chili's or TGI Fridays way before I hit Applebee's.

[Kembal]

GPA requirement is too low, but otherwise not a bad proposal.

It's unlikely someone planning to go to community college was planning to aim for an elite private university to begin with, so I don't the transfer credit issue is going to be that big of a deal.

My question is....where the hell was this proposal last year? Political incompetence to not announce it before the election.

[Androidpk]

You have very questionable tastes in life.

If I'm going for cheap but more than fast food eating though, I'll hit Chili's or TGI Fridays way before I hit Applebee's.

Says the guy who drinks bud lite.

[Parkbandit]

You have very questionable tastes in life.

If I'm going for cheap but more than fast food eating though, I'll hit Chili's or TGI Fridays way before I hit Applebee's.

Chili's yes.. TGI Fridays Hell no!

I'd rather go to Carrabba's or Moe's or Panera

[SashaFierce]

GPA requirement is too low, but otherwise not a bad proposal.

It's unlikely someone planning to go to community college was planning to aim for an elite private university to begin with, so I don't the transfer credit issue is going to be that big of a deal.

My question is....where the hell was this proposal last year? Political incompetence to not announce it before the election.


My friend Summer likes to say, C's get degrees. Which would be a 2.0 GPA. If you can earn a degree with a 2.0 GPA, I think you should be able to qualify for financial aid.

[Gelston]

Chili's yes.. TGI Fridays Hell no!

I'd rather go to Carrabba's or Moe's or Panera

Never cared for Carrabbas. I like TGI Fridays for the cheesey mashed potatoes.

[Parkbandit]

GPA requirement is too low, but otherwise not a bad proposal.

It's unlikely someone planning to go to community college was planning to aim for an elite private university to begin with, so I don't the transfer credit issue is going to be that big of a deal.

If it requires those who go through this program to actually work for 2 years to "pay" for the program.. I'm all for it. If the funds are just being paid by taxpayers, then I'm not. Hell, maybe it should be paid by the industries that will get better employees out of the deal?


My question is....where the hell was this proposal last year? Political incompetence to not announce it before the election.

What do you believe would have been the outcome if it had?

[Parkbandit]

Never cared for Carrabbas. I like TGI Fridays for the cheesey mashed potatoes.

I like their grilled chicken. Never been able to make it that good at home.

And TGI Fridays seems to be all pre-prepared meals that come out of the freezer, into a microwave and onto your plate. Maybe it's just my local one, but the food comes across as bland and boring to me.

[Parkbandit]

My friend Summer likes to say, C's get degrees. Which would be a 2.0 GPA. If you can earn a degree with a 2.0 GPA, I think you should be able to qualify for financial aid.

I have 2 daughters in college at the moment. I told them I'll pay for their education, but if they get a "C" or below on any class, they have to repay me for it.

If you're getting a "C" in a class.. you aren't even trying.

[Hightower]

If it requires those who go through this program to actually work for 2 years to "pay" for the program.. I'm all for it. If the funds are just being paid by taxpayers, then I'm not. Hell, maybe it should be paid by the industries that will get better employees out of the deal?


That's a fine idea, PB! Government and industry are used to working together for their own benefit and often at the expense of the taxpayer. This might be a way they can include The People as well, to some extent. I'm of the opinion that money used for education is money well spent, when compared to some of the other things we pay for. But if industry is to benefit, perhaps they should pick up some of the check. Also, fast-tracking people from education into useful positions via this program could justify the cost to industry and help match educated people to appropriate jobs.

Now are we taking bets on whether or not the government is capable of implementing such a program as envisioned? I'm skeptical.

~Taverkin

[Whirlin]

I have 2 daughters in college at the moment. I told them I'll pay for their education, but if they get a "C" or below on any class, they have to repay me for it.

If you're getting a "C" in a class.. you aren't even trying.

Agreed... However, I'd be hesitant on making that a hard and fast rule from a governmental perspective... just cause there could always be that one harsh grading professor that only givs out 1-2 A's in the class somewhere in some college.

Regarding companies flipping the bill... Lets tackle some of the massive corporate taxation loopholes and credits first, before worrying about delineating who is flipping the bill. Although, arguably, removing some tax credits to corporations would likely pay for it.

[Androidpk]

I like their grilled chicken. Never been able to make it that good at home.



I am disappoint

[Parkbandit]

That's a fine idea, PB! Government and industry are used to working together for their own benefit and often at the expense of the taxpayer. This might be a way they can include The People as well, to some extent. I'm of the opinion that money used for education is money well spent, when compared to some of the other things we pay for. But if industry is to benefit, perhaps they should pick up some of the check. Also, fast-tracking people from education into useful positions via this program could justify the cost to industry and help match educated people to appropriate jobs.

Now are we taking bets on whether or not the government is capable of implementing such a program as envisioned? I'm skeptical.

~Taverkin

Oh, I have no doubt the government is incapable of implementing the program. It will end up being a program that requires hundreds or thousands of new government employees, is full of fraud and no trackable evidence that it actually makes a difference.

But free college gives ignorant people a warm and happy feeling that they really believe makes a difference... so people will be all for it. I mean, come on.. who doesn't love free shit!?

[Parkbandit]

I am disappoint

I'm sure they plump it up by marinating it with oil, butter and other things that aren't good for you.. but it is juicy and succulent.

My chicken always turns out good... but not THAT good.

[Androidpk]

I'm sure they plump it up by marinating it with oil, butter and other things that aren't good for you.. but it is juicy and succulent.

My chicken always turns out good... but not THAT good.

Marinating certainly helps but all you need is a simple brine solution.

http://www.seriouseats.com/2012/06/hot-to-grill-boneless-skinless-chicken-breast.html

[Fallen]

It is perfect for a management job at Applebee's.

It depends on the community college though. The one here, Bossier Parish Community College, actually has a better graphics department then than LSU Shreveport does. This is due to them making a bunch of movies and crap around here and the production companies giving the College shit tons of money to get all the equipment (so they can also use it.)

I agree that there is a huge disparity between Community colleges. Some sort of standard (above and beyond what is already required to be a community college) should be enforced.


One of two out of like twenty education plans of Obama's that I like. I think the GPA requirements should be higher though.

I think a 3.0 would be a good cutoff, with exceptions for honors classes. They could also make the GPA requirements regionally based.


So... while I like the concept, I think it will fall a little flat, predominantly due to the fact that they only need to ensure that the credits transfer to LOCAL PUBLIC colleges. There is no requirement for transfer of credits to private colleges, or non-local public colleges. So, you can't really use this as a stepping stone to get into MIT or Harvard, etc.

This may result in further dividing private and public colleges. I wouldn't be surprised in private colleges stopped accepting the transfer credits, so they can milk all four years of tuition.

I also agree the GPA requirement is a little low... while GPA is widely influenced by the school/professors, I don't think it's unreasonable to request a 3.0 GPA for subsidies.

Most good community colleges will have agreements with nearly colleges in the state (Public and Private) so that their degrees transfer automatically. I think this should be a standard for this program. It requires that the community college meet the same standards as the 100's and 200's level classes of a 4 year degree school.


My main thought on this is there is already a fine program for the government paying for college. It is called the GI Bill. Why not expand on that program to include services beyond the military? Pledge X amount of years of service and your school would be paid for by the state.

[Gelston]

My main thought on this is there is already a fine program for the government paying for college. It is called the GI Bill. Why not expand on that program to include services beyond the military? Pledge X amount of years of service and your school would be paid for by the state.

The GI Bill is run by the VA. Do we really want them to be handling non-Veterans in addition? They fuck up as is already.

[Kembal]

If it requires those who go through this program to actually work for 2 years to "pay" for the program.. I'm all for it. If the funds are just being paid by taxpayers, then I'm not. Hell, maybe it should be paid by the industries that will get better employees out of the deal?

So interesting question: If someone's going to go to community college and at least get B's in some of their classes, what are the chances that they're doing it for fun and have no intention of working later? I mean, why would you study for 2 years and then do nothing with the degree? Why not just play video games during that time, if all you're going to do is play video games when you graduate?

We could definitely get rid of a few corporate tax loopholes to pay for this though, if that makes you feel better.


What do you believe would have been the outcome if it had?

Might've increased youth turnout and kept in Dem hands one or two House seats, plus Mark Udall's seat in Colorado and/or Kay Hagan's seat in NC.

May have done absolutely nothing to change any results. But Republican turnout was always going to be high intensity anyway....Dems did nothing to increase intensity amongst voters likely to vote for them if they had a reason to turnout.

[Viekn]

If they are too lazy to get a job to pay for community college to begin with.. what makes you think they will look for one when they get out?

1. In my area of the country (South Florida), I think it would be difficult for a person looking to enter community college to find a job that would pay well enough to cover your living expenses AND pay for community college.

2. Anyone who is that lazy won't be able to maintain the 2.5 GPA needed to qualify for the program. I'm not saying 2.5 is high, but for someone who is too to actually even get a job to help them pay for CC, maintaining a C+ average would be difficult.

[Atlanteax]

The main problem is that it will diminish the economic signal effect (such that it is) of going to community college.

Federal Financial Aid programs already do that to all colleges (the larger ones).

[Jeril]

They could also easily cut 2 years of uselessness out of grades k-12. Around here, they already have for a lot of students with a running start program which allows them to take college classes and get credit for them at their high school. So they can end up graduating from high school and get their AA at the same time.

[Warriorbird]

Federal Financial Aid programs already do that to all colleges (the larger ones).

There's still a difference in pay back (theoretically) versus not.

[Gelston]

They could also easily cut 2 years of uselessness out of grades k-12. Around here, they already have for a lot of students with a running start program which allows them to take college classes and get credit for them at their high school. So they can end up graduating from high school and get their AA at the same time.

We had that when i went to High School, but you wouldn't get nearly enough credits for an AA by High School Graduation.


There's still a difference in pay back (theoretically) versus not.

As Sasha mentioned, she recieves a Pell Grant that not only is enough to cover her tuition but books too and she still has left over. Seems to me Community College is already paid for by a government program.

[Fallen]

The GI Bill is run by the VA. Do we really want them to be handling non-Veterans in addition? They fuck up as is already.

Speaking from experience, I don't have too many complaints about how the GI bill was handled. Schools want that money, so they usually bend over backwards to ensure things go smoothly. Granted, this is anecdotal, but I would hazard to guess most people using the GI bill are happy with it.

I haven't reviewed this thoroughly, but some corroborating data: http://www.gallup.com/poll/172082/veterans-satisfied-bill-education-benefits.aspx

[Gelston]

Speaking from experience, I don't have too many complaints about how the GI bill was handled. Schools want that money, so they usually bend over backwards to ensure things go smoothly. Granted, this is anecdotal, but I would hazard to guess most people using the GI bill are happy with it.

I haven't reviewed this thoroughly, but some corroborating data: http://www.gallup.com/poll/172082/veterans-satisfied-bill-education-benefits.aspx

I'm happy with it, but I have had problems. Like they'd pay my tuition, but never send the book money or the BAH. Sure, I'd get a sweet check like 3 months later, but it is a pain in the ass.

The benefits are great. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they aren't. I'm saying the VA itself is a clusterfuck.

Hell, I remember reading something from someone on this very board where the VA didn't pay his tuition at all, and they were supposed to.

[Kembal]

They could also easily cut 2 years of uselessness out of grades k-12. Around here, they already have for a lot of students with a running start program which allows them to take college classes and get credit for them at their high school. So they can end up graduating from high school and get their AA at the same time.

I recommend not. That's what the Indian education system does, and my experience is that the majority of those who don't choose a demanding field after 10th (engineering/science/accounting) have a limited base of general knowledge. I've found that you really start processing things like history and civics when you're 16 and older. Before that, it's eh.

[Warriorbird]

As Sasha mentioned, she recieves a Pell Grant that not only is enough to cover her tuition but books too and she still has left over. Seems to me Community College is already paid for by a government program.

Pell are only a portion of the total, but you're right.

[Gizmo]

I'd personally look into this for myself, if I could find Community College around me that offers a decent art program.

That's only because I've been to College once, and I would still wouldn't mind getting more into the art field like I've done with some more proper education and background on it.

[Parkbandit]

So interesting question: If someone's going to go to community college and at least get B's in some of their classes, what are the chances that they're doing it for fun and have no intention of working later? I mean, why would you study for 2 years and then do nothing with the degree? Why not just play video games during that time, if all you're going to do is play video games when you graduate?

If they couldn't motivate themselves to get a job to pay for community college, it's unlikely they will work hard to get A's and B's... so we're probably not talking about the same group of people.


We could definitely get rid of a few corporate tax loopholes to pay for this though, if that makes you feel better.

Give me some examples of tax loopholes you would like to close that would be able to pay for this program. We might actually agree!


Might've increased youth turnout and kept in Dem hands one or two House seats, plus Mark Udall's seat in Colorado and/or Kay Hagan's seat in NC.

May have done absolutely nothing to change any results. But Republican turnout was always going to be high intensity anyway....Dems did nothing to increase intensity amongst voters likely to vote for them if they had a reason to turnout.

What difference would 2 House seats make? And even if Udall and Hagan won, Democrats would still be in the minority in the Senate.

[Glitch]

I'm for almost any plan which attempts to improve education. The 2.5 GPA and part-time attendance are the requirements to receive federal grants and subsidized loans, so I expect they're using those numbers because it's already been a thing for quite a while.

My time at community college was paid for by grants like a couple others have mentioned here. Had I not had government assistance I probably couldn't have afforded it either. I was certainly motivated to have a job and go to school, but if you're not living at home and most of the jobs you're getting hired for are paying close to minimum wage, it's pretty impossible to pay for tuition, especially as the prices continue to rise.

[SashaFierce]

Pell are only a portion of the total, but you're right.

I had the option of taking out loans as well, but I didn't need to.

[Jeril]

I've found that you really start processing things like history and civics when you're 16 and older. Before that, it's eh.

Even if we used this as a baseline, who is to say we couldn't make classes like that part of the curriculum to get ones AA? There are still several classes that are basically repeats of what one has already done. English classes are a good example as are math classes. I don't know about other schools but around here in high school one gets put through algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and precalculus, which are all beginning math classes in college and often the only ones people need to take unless their degree requires higher math like calculus. Unless things were changed only up to geometry was required but it is pretty much expected that one takes math all four years.

[waywardgs]

It's a platitude, but education is an investment in the future of the country. I'm all for that because it will pay off down the road, unlike a lot of other government spending.

[Alashir]

If they couldn't motivate themselves to get a job to pay for community college, it's unlikely they will work hard to get A's and B's... so we're probably not talking about the same group of people.



As a Portland resident, it's $92/hour for CC or if you're a non-resident, it's $220/hour. You're required to pay for classes by the ~2nd week of school, so if you're taking 18 credits a term that's $1600/term for CC. Working full time as a CNA I was making about $9.00/hour which didn't exactly leave me much room to drop $1600 on school 3 to 4 times a year (four if you wanted to do summer classes which I did). This is of course to say nothing of the associated costs of books, supplies, parking, etc.

It has nothing to do with motivation and everything to do with simply being able to afford going to school. Unless you're arguing that people aren't motivated because they know they can't afford it which IMO doesn't make sense.

Edit: Link to PCC Tuition - http://www.pcc.edu/enroll/paying-for-college/tuition/

[Tgo01]

What's wrong with the grants and federal loans we have now?

[Hightower]

Might not be a bad idea to include a "math" class in high school that prepares students for taking out loans, mortgages, credit, even 401k, stocks, etc. Maybe people wouldn't leap into massive debt so easily if they knew what they were getting into and how they have to plan for life!

[Gelston]

18 credits is full time. If you are working a full time job, you really probably shouldn't be going to full time college.

[Parkbandit]

As a Portland resident, it's $92/hour for CC or if you're a non-resident, it's $220/hour. You're required to pay for classes by the ~2nd week of school, so if you're taking 18 credits a term that's $1600/term for CC. Working full time as a CNA I was making about $9.00/hour which didn't exactly leave me much room to drop $1600 on school 3 to 4 times a year (four if you wanted to do summer classes which I did). This is of course to say nothing of the associated costs of books, supplies, parking, etc.

It has nothing to do with motivation and everything to do with simply being able to afford going to school. Unless you're arguing that people aren't motivated because they know they can't afford it which IMO doesn't make sense.

Edit: Link to PCC Tuition - http://www.pcc.edu/enroll/paying-for-college/tuition/

You taking summer courses is of course your option. Personally, I took a year off between high school and college and had to work/save money to go to college. $1600 a semester is still a small sum of money, considering it would take you 4 weeks to save up for that semester, with your job. Summer has 8 weeks.. there's the full year right there... which is not including another job you have while going to college.

And that's not even addressing any other sources of financial aid.

I have very little sympathy for someone who says they need this handout because otherwise they couldn't go to community college.

[Tgo01]

Students should be able to get the knowledge and the skills they need without taking on decades' worth of student debt.

2 years of community college = decades' worth of student debt?

[Gelston]

2 years of community college = decades' worth of student debt?

If you pay a dollar back a month or something.

[Fallen]

(Reuters) - President Barack Obama's proposal to offer two years of free community college tuition to any student who keeps up their grades would cost the federal government about $60 billion over 10 years, the White House said on Friday.

Food for thought.

[waywardgs]

You taking summer courses is of course your option. Personally, I took a year off between high school and college and had to work/save money to go to college. $1600 a semester is still a small sum of money, considering it would take you 4 weeks to save up for that semester, with your job. Summer has 8 weeks.. there's the full year right there... which is not including another job you have while going to college.

And that's not even addressing any other sources of financial aid.

I have very little sympathy for someone who says they need this handout because otherwise they couldn't go to community college.

My specific situation is applicable to everyone, therefore anyone who has a different experience or life than I did is a piece of shit loser who doesn't deserve a better life or a chance to improve his ability to contribute to society.

(They can just stay on welfare!! Wait...)

[Tgo01]

Food for thought.

6 billion dollars a year sounds kind of low. A quick Google search says there are about 8 million students enrolled in community colleges so that averages out to be about 750 dollars a year. I know community colleges aren't too expensive and all but I don't think they are that cheap.

This isn't even taking into account the most likely scenario of more people going to community college once it's free.

[Tgo01]

6 billion dollars a year sounds kind of low. A quick Google search says there are about 8 million students enrolled in community colleges so that averages out to be about 750 dollars a year. I know community colleges aren't too expensive and all but I don't think they are that cheap.

This isn't even taking into account the most likely scenario of more people going to community college once it's free.

I just realized this information is in the original post:

9 million students a year and it would save 3800 dollars a year per student on average.

That's 34 billion dollars a year. Granted it's still not a whole lot compared to how much the US pisses away on shit but it's still a nice chunk of change.

[Latrinsorm]

6 billion dollars a year sounds kind of low. A quick Google search says there are about 8 million students enrolled in community colleges so that averages out to be about 750 dollars a year. I know community colleges aren't too expensive and all but I don't think they are that cheap.

This isn't even taking into account the most likely scenario of more people going to community college once it's free.Dynamic scoring, Terry.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

As a Portland resident, it's $92/hour for CC or if you're a non-resident, it's $220/hour. You're required to pay for classes by the ~2nd week of school, so if you're taking 18 credits a term that's $1600/term for CC. Working full time as a CNA I was making about $9.00/hour which didn't exactly leave me much room to drop $1600 on school 3 to 4 times a year (four if you wanted to do summer classes which I did). This is of course to say nothing of the associated costs of books, supplies, parking, etc.

It has nothing to do with motivation and everything to do with simply being able to afford going to school. Unless you're arguing that people aren't motivated because they know they can't afford it which IMO doesn't make sense.

Edit: Link to PCC Tuition - http://www.pcc.edu/enroll/paying-for-college/tuition/

Maybe you should get a 2nd and possibly 3rd job so that you can pay for college? I mean, I did it because I knew I wanted a college education and had no other options.

[Tgo01]

Dynamic scoring, Terry.

...shut up!

[Taernath]

Hell, I remember reading something from someone on this very board where the VA didn't pay his tuition at all, and they were supposed to.

Haha, that was me.

On my college website/student accounts section I'd see a monthly tuition fee appear, then disappear within a couple days. I figured the VA was paying for it, but what actually was happening was the charges were being deferred and 'hidden' until the last day they were due. I got an email that basically said if I didn't pay $7000 by COB, I'd be dropped and barred from registration. The VA never bothered to tell me they were giving me BAH and the extras but not the actual fucking tuition. I still don't know exactly what it was that caused it.

Anyway, I'm in favor of the idea. Partly because I think it would be better to invest some of those billions spent on defense on education instead, and partly because I want people to personally know how fucked up government bureaucracy can get sometimes.

[Tenlaar]

Maybe you should get a 2nd and possibly 3rd job so that you can pay for college? I mean, I did it because I knew I wanted a college education and had no other options.

Is this what the "american dream" means to you? Having to work 2 or 3 jobs to achieve the lowest levels of higher education? Why do you think that everybody should have it difficult if you did, regardless of whether it has to be that way or not?

It's shitty that you had to do that, you shouldn't have had to either. That's no reason to basically call somebody lazy for only working one job and going to college.

[Tgo01]

I also wonder; once tuition becomes paid for what's to stop community colleges from just upping the price of tuition to make more money? It's not like they are going to get less students since it's free.

[Fallen]

I also wonder; once tuition becomes paid for what's to stop community colleges from just upping the price of tuition to make more money? It's not like they are going to get less students since it's free.

Well, as this would have to go through congress, I suppose they could add legislation for tuition rate control.

I mean, this is all just hypothetical. It has a 0% chance of coming to pass. Congress won't fund this in a million years. Hell, I expect this session's congress to do little more than set the record for most vetoed bills.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Agreed... However, I'd be hesitant on making that a hard and fast rule from a governmental perspective... just cause there could always be that one harsh grading professor that only givs out 1-2 A's in the class somewhere in some college.

Why do we always have to work to the lowest common denominator?

[Parkbandit]

My specific situation is applicable to everyone, therefore anyone who has a different experience or life than I did is a piece of shit loser who doesn't deserve a better life or a chance to improve his ability to contribute to society.

(They can just stay on welfare!! Wait...)

If we just give people what they want, then they will automatically become productive member of society! And not tomorrow, we demand it now! It's a right! We deserve it!!

[Parkbandit]

I also wonder; once tuition becomes paid for what's to stop community colleges from just upping the price of tuition to make more money? It's not like they are going to get less students since it's free.

Because colleges aren't selfish corporations. They are run by enlightened liberals who would rather benefit mankind than to benefit from greed.

DUH.

[Parkbandit]

Well, as this would have to go through congress, I suppose they could add legislation for tuition rate control.

I mean, this is all just hypothetical. It has a 0% chance of coming to pass. Congress won't fund this in a million years. Hell, I expect this session's congress to do little more than set the record for most vetoed bills.

I'm sure you will declare Obama/Democrats the "Party of No" and stand with your fellow liberals to call them out for such nonsense. Why would they stand in the way of Progress?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Is this what the "american dream" means to you? Having to work 2 or 3 jobs to achieve the lowest levels of higher education? Why do you think that everybody should have it difficult if you did, regardless of whether it has to be that way or not?

It's shitty that you had to do that, you shouldn't have had to either. That's no reason to basically call somebody lazy for only working one job and going to college.

It's exactly the American dream to me. I wanted something (higher education) so I worked hard (in jobs and academically) to get it. Honestly, it WAS NOT that difficult. I also bought my own car before I graduated HS so I'd have a ride. The thing that cost the most for me was getting auto and health insurance.

[waywardgs]

If we just give people what they want, then they will automatically become productive member of society! And not tomorrow, we demand it now! It's a right! We deserve it!!

Something something bootstraps! Uphill both ways! Back in my day! Rarr!

[Parkbandit]

Is this what the "american dream" means to you? Having to work 2 or 3 jobs to achieve the lowest levels of higher education? Why do you think that everybody should have it difficult if you did, regardless of whether it has to be that way or not?

It's shitty that you had to do that, you shouldn't have had to either. That's no reason to basically call somebody lazy for only working one job and going to college.

If you want to go to college, there are already ways to go about getting there.

It takes drive, effort and hard work.

[Parkbandit]

Something something bootstraps! Uphill both ways! Back in my day! Rarr!

Something something not fair! It's my right! WE WANT IT NOW! DERP!!!

[Parkbandit]

The thing that cost the most for me was getting auto and health insurance.

Well that has already been taking care of.. thanks to Obamacare.

[Fallen]

I'm sure you will declare Obama/Democrats the "Party of No" and stand with your fellow liberals to call them out for such nonsense. Why would they stand in the way of Progress?

I like to stay somewhat impartial, but when the 20th time they attempt to repeal Obamacare only to be vetoed, it's going to get old. That being said, if Democrats pull the same bullshit Republicans do to hem up the legislative process than by all means they should be openly mocked. Same with Barry O using the veto.

[Parkbandit]

I like to stay somewhat impartial

LOL stop.


but when the 20th time they attempt to repeal Obamacare only to be vetoed, it's going to get old. That being said, if Democrats pull the same bullshit Republicans do to hem up the legislative process than by all means they should be openly mocked. Same with Barry O using the veto.

The majority of Republicans were running on getting Obamacare repealed and replaced... and they won. It makes sense that they would want to live up to their promise... especially since the majority of Americans are against the law.

[Fallen]

LOL stop.

I'm curious. Would you describe yourself as more impartial than me? Would you describe anyone who posts regularly on political threads here on the PC as impartial?




The majority of Republicans were running on getting Obamacare repealed and replaced... and they won. It makes sense that they would want to live up to their promise... especially since the majority of Americans are against the law.

And how many times should they send legislation to Obama's desk knowing it will be vetoed? How much time on the floor should they spend on this process? Using your logic, shouldn't Obama be justified vetoing any bills that he doesn't agree with by the mandate given him during his election?

[Taernath]

College tuition and book fees have been skyrocketing over the last several decades. It's cool if you were able to be ultra independant 20 years ago, but doing the same thing now is much, much harder. I'd say it's impossible for the vast majority of people who don't have access to parental support.

[Fallen]

College tuition and book fees have been skyrocketing over the last several decades. It's cool if you were able to be ultra independant 20 years ago, but doing the same thing now is much, much harder. I'd say it's impossible for the vast majority of people who don't have access to parental support.

I'd definitely agree with the costs of books skyrocketing, especially if taking science-based classes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/04/college-textbook-prices-increase_n_2409153.html

Interesting numbers 800+% increase in the cost of textbooks over 30 years. 550+% cost in tuition.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

College tuition and book fees have been skyrocketing over the last several decades. It's cool if you were able to be ultra independant 20 years ago, but doing the same thing now is much, much harder. I'd say it's impossible for the vast majority of people who don't have access to parental support.

I heard the same thing when I went to University. Oddly enough, there were many people who found ways to pay for college without parental support. I'd wager there still are.

[Parkbandit]

I'm curious. Would you describe yourself as more impartial than me? Would you describe anyone who posts regularly on political threads here on the PC as impartial?

No, I'm not impartial... and I've never claimed to be.

You are not impartial... yet you've claimed to be.

Silliness.


And how many times should they send legislation to Obama's desk knowing it will be vetoed? How much time on the floor should they spend on this process?

For me? As long as it takes until this law is overturned.


Using your logic, shouldn't Obama be justified vetoing any bills that he doesn't agree with by the mandate given him during his election?

Absolutely. But using your logic, he shouldn't stand in the way of the majority, otherwise he's just standing in the way of real progress.

[Parkbandit]

College tuition and book fees have been skyrocketing over the last several decades. It's cool if you were able to be ultra independant 20 years ago, but doing the same thing now is much, much harder. I'd say it's impossible for the vast majority of people who don't have access to parental support.

My favorite is professors making one of their books mandatory reading and part of the syllabus... thus guaranteeing their books get bought.

And lol @ being impossible for the vast majority of people. What are you smoking?

[Fallen]

No, I'm not impartial... and I've never claimed to be.

You are not impartial... yet you've claimed to be.

Silliness.



For me? As long as it takes until this law is overturned.



Absolutely. But using your logic, he shouldn't stand in the way of the majority, otherwise he's just standing in the way of real progress.

Actually, I stated little would be accomplished in this congressional session. Do you disagree with me?

I also stated that Republicans obstructed legislation in the ..however many terms they've been doing so. Do you disagree there?

I think we agree on more than we disagree.

Hell, do you even disagree with this statement, "I mean, this is all just hypothetical. It has a 0% chance of coming to pass. Congress won't fund this in a million years. Hell, I expect this session's congress to do little more than set the record for most vetoed bills."

[Parkbandit]

Actually, I stated little would be accomplished in this congressional session. Do you disagree with me?

Yes, I disagree with you.


I also stated that Republicans obstructed legislation in the ..however many terms they've been doing so. Do you disagree there?

I think we agree on more than we disagree.

Isn't that the minority's responsibility.. especially given the type of legislation that was brought forward and the method it was passed?

[Atlanteax]

Obama represents the liberal hostility to frugality, so this is part of the overall goal to keep increasing spending (a wasteful $60 billion a year that would reach $100+ billion within a few years) so that a deficit surplus never happens again (it took the Republican Congress during Clinton Presidency to do it).

[Fallen]

Yes, I disagree with you.

What do you believe will be accomplished in this session?




Isn't that the minority's responsibility.. especially given the type of legislation that was brought forward and the method it was passed?

I think the current state of congress is highly dysfunctional, given the several near defaults/shutdowns. I would not want democrats to lead the country into shutdowns and defaults any more than I would the republicans.

[Atlanteax]

College tuition and book fees have been skyrocketing over the last several decades. It's cool if you were able to be ultra independant 20 years ago, but doing the same thing now is much, much harder. I'd say it's impossible for the vast majority of people who don't have access to parental support.

Hence the answer would be to deflate demand for higher education, the creation of alternative career path (trade schools) ... inflating it with this $60+ billion / year spending (that is a trainwreck in the making) will only function as pouring more gasoline on the fire that is tuition costs.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Obama represents the liberal hostility to frugality, so this is part of the overall goal to keep increasing spending (a wasteful $60 billion a year that would reach $100+ billion within a few years) so that a deficit surplus never happens again (it took the Republican Congress during Clinton Presidency to do it).

Republicans, for all their rabble rousing, are every bit as wasteful spenders as Democrats. The reality is that each party just has a different idea of WHAT to overspend on.

[Fallen]

Hence the answer would be to deflate demand for higher education, the creation of alternative career path (trade schools) ... inflating it with this $60+ billion / year spending (that is a trainwreck in the making) will only function as pouring more gasoline on the fire that is tuition costs.

Didn't this proposal also offer to fund trade schools?

Expanding technical training programs:

President Obama also proposed the new American Technical Training Fund, which will expand innovative, high-quality technical training programs across the country. Specifically, the fund will award programs that:



Have strong employer partnerships and include work-based learning opportunities
Provide accelerated training
Accommodate part-time work


Also, Community Colleges also have technical schools within them. Mine did, at least.

[Parkbandit]

What do you believe will be accomplished in this session?

More than the last 6 years. Just passing a budget would be a huge step in the right direction.


I think the current state of congress is highly dysfunctional, given the several near defaults/shutdowns. I would not want democrats to lead the country into shutdowns and defaults any more than I would the republicans.

It's adorable how you honestly believe that the government was shut down and that it was a disaster.

If you had to guess... what percentage of total government do you believe was actually "shut down" during those dark days?

[Warriorbird]

Republicans, for all their rabble rousing, are every bit as wasteful spenders as Democrats. The reality is that each party just has a different idea of WHAT to overspend on.

Actual truth.

[Parkbandit]

Republicans, for all their rabble rousing, are every bit as wasteful spenders as Democrats. The reality is that each party just has a different idea of WHAT to overspend on.

^^ Exactly this. Just look at John Boehner voting for the fighter jet no one wanted, but because it was being built in Ohio, he just had to have it!

[Fallen]

More than the last 6 years. Just passing a budget would be a huge step in the right direction.

I honestly hope this proves to be true.




It's adorable how you honestly believe that the government was shut down and that it was a disaster.

If you had to guess... what percentage of total government do you believe was actually "shut down" during those dark days?

Without doing research, I don't know. Anecdotally, I was highly effected, as many of my coworkers were furloughed and research was interrupted due to the shutdowns. Operations on post were also effected due to various reduction in staff/funding.

[Latrinsorm]

I think the current state of congress is highly dysfunctional, given the several near defaults/shutdowns.
It's adorable how you honestly believe that the government was shut down and that it was a disaster.Things that make you say "wat?"

[Fallen]

Did we actually default? We definitely hit "shutdowns" in whatever definition that word holds in this sense.

[Parkbandit]

Without doing research, I don't know. Anecdotally, I was highly effected, as many of my coworkers were furloughed and research was interrupted due to the shutdowns. Operations on post were also effected due to various reduction in staff/funding.

Well, let's not go by anecdotal evidence... see if you can find out. I'm guessing reality it's single digits... maybe in the teens.

But don't worry.. the liberals have already brainwashed most people into thinking it was actually a government shut down with dire repercussions.. to the point the Republicans are actually scared to do it.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Things that make you say "wat?"

I say "wot?"

[Fallen]

Original Question - "If you had to guess... what percentage of total government do you believe was actually "shut down" during those dark days?"


During the shutdown, approximately 800,000 federal employees were indefinitely furloughed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furlough), and another 1.3 million were required to report to work without known payment dates.


In September, before the government shutdown, the government had 2,723,000 employees, according to the latest job report, on a seasonally adjusted basis.

Using the most conservative numbers, approx 29% of the total government workforce was shut down.

In terms of services interrupted: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_federal_government_agencies_and_operati ons_affected_by_the_shutdown_of_2013

I'm not sure where to look to quantify the number of total government agencies/operations that were taking place prior to the shutdown. We need to find that before we can crunch the numbers. I imagine you would also want to argue whether every item on that list (I haven't fully reviewed it) would meet the criteria of being "shut down", and narrow it down from there.

[Thondalar]

Or an important stepping stone for a management position at Applebee's.

What's wrong with a management position at Applebee's? It's Business Administration, something a lot of people go to school for. It's no different than a managerial position in any other business, besides being quite a bit more intense than your average office job. Average salary for restaurant managers is 40k per year, with the potential to go much, much higher. Managing partners and regional managers make 6 figures easily.

[Gelston]

What's wrong with a management position at Applebee's? It's Business Administration, something a lot of people go to school for. It's no different than a managerial position in any other business, besides being quite a bit more intense than your average office job. Average salary for restaurant managers is 40k per year, with the potential to go much, much higher. Managing partners and regional managers make 6 figures easily.

Did I say anything was wrong with it? DEFENSIVE MUCH PAL?

[Parkbandit]

Original Question - "If you had to guess... what percentage of total government do you believe was actually "shut down" during those dark days?"

Using the most conservative numbers, approx 29% of the total government workforce was shut down.

In terms of services interrupted: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_federal_government_agencies_and_operati ons_affected_by_the_shutdown_of_2013

I'm not sure where to look to quantify the number of total government agencies/operations that were taking place prior to the shutdown. We need to find that before we can crunch the numbers. I imagine you would also want to argue whether every item on that list (I haven't fully reviewed it) would meet the criteria of being "shut down", and narrow it down from there.

If the government was shut down because it couldn't afford to stay open, a better metric would be money spent during the shutdown vs. regular.

In that case, the figure is closer to 17% http://mercatus.org/publication/how-much-government-actually-shut-down

Which is still higher than what I actually thought it would be.

[Taernath]

I heard the same thing when I went to University. Oddly enough, there were many people who found ways to pay for college without parental support. I'd wager there still are.

I know there still are, because I'm one of them. That wasn't my point though. It's getting harder to go the 'independent' route because tuition has been increasing at a much higher rate than income. It costs ~50% more to go to college now than it did in 2000. That should worry you.


My favorite is professors making one of their books mandatory reading and part of the syllabus... thus guaranteeing their books get bought.

And lol @ being impossible for the vast majority of people. What are you smoking?

It's called being a human being and wanting to see others succeed. You should try it sometime, it's good stuff.

[Parkbandit]

I know there still are, because I'm one of them. That wasn't my point though. It's getting harder to go the 'independent' route because tuition has been increasing at a much higher rate than income. It costs ~50% more to go to college now than it did in 2000. That should worry you.

It's called being a human being and wanting to see others succeed. You should try it sometime, it's good stuff.

You nailed it! I am an alien robot and do not want to see the human race succeed so we can take over!

[Parkbandit]

WASHINGTON — There are at least six reasons that community college won’t be free anytime soon, no matter what President Barack Obama says.


Obama, who traveled Friday to Pellissippi State Community College in Knoxville, Tenn., to tout the America’s College Promise plan, said he wanted to make higher education as accessible as a high school diploma for all Americans.


But the plan has flaws that all but ensure it won’t be implemented and will serve only as a political proposal to make supporters happy. Among the reasons:


The price tag


It would cost $60 billion over 10 years. White House officials wouldn’t say where they’d find the billions to pay for it. And the spending would have to be approved by Congress, where Republicans just gained seats in midterm elections after campaigning against more federal spending.


Administration officials say they’ll indicate where the money will come from when Obama releases his budget proposal Feb. 2. “Without details to review, this plan is more like a talking point,” said Cory Fritz, a spokesman for House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio.


The national debt


In December, the national debt reached $18 trillion, sparking renewed criticism from fiscal conservatives about the increase in government spending. Obama touted the declining federal budget deficit when he spoke in Knoxville on Friday, but he didn’t mention that the debt continues to increase.


“Why stop there?” Republican Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal said. “Why not have the government buy a car and a house for everyone?”


The states


While the federal government would pick up 75 percent of the tab, the final quarter would come from states that opt into the program. The states, which have already slashed funding for colleges and universities as they face budget shortfalls and competing priorities, would have to cut other programs to pay for the cost or to raise taxes.


The students


The program would provide aid to some students who don’t need it, instead of focusing on low-income students through, for example, expanding Pell Grants or reducing the paperwork for student aid. Administration officials estimate that 9 million students could participate if they attend at least half-time, maintain 2.5 GPAs and make progress toward completing degrees or certificate programs.


“Making tuition free for all students regardless of their income is a missed opportunity to focus resources on the students who need aid the most,” said the Institute for College Access & Success, which usually sides with the Obama administration.


The emphasis


The lure of free tuition might lead some students who should go straight to four-year institutions to attend community colleges instead.


“Why support community college instead of college?” asked Russ Whitehurst, a former official at the Department of Education who now heads the Brown Center on Education Policy at the Brookings Institution, a center-left policy research center.


The regulations


States and community colleges would have to abide by certain rules to get the federal money. For example, states would have to agree not to cut higher education funding elsewhere to pay for the proposal.


Community colleges would have to offer programs that transfer to public four-year colleges or lead to degrees and certificates that are in demand among employers, and implement programs that would improve student achievements.


Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2015/01/09/252584_6-reasons-the-math-on-obamas-college.html?rh=1#storylink=cpy

[Fallen]

Any way you slice it, student loans are a big problem. Over 40 million Americans have student loans, of which 7 million have defaulted, totalling 1.2 trillion dollars. 25% of graduate students owe something like 100k, 10% owing 150k+

Free community college is not the solution to the above problem. If anything, it might exacerbate the situation as more people would go on to continue school without the government picking up the tab. I would rather see serious programs/policies aimed at tackling the existing student loan debt problems before we passively encourage further burrowing.

That being said, you can't just say, "We've spent too much already!" and then do nothing to address 1. The student loan problem, or 2. The lack of higher education in a sizable proportion of the population. Something must be done, and at a scale this large, it will need to involve the government. That doesn't necessarily mean the government hand wave away the debt, or pay for it themselves, but even the most conservative would agree policy changes are in order at a minimum to stop the situation from worsening. If nothing is done, the problem will get worse, not better. That much is certain.

Here are some conservative ideas i've seen proposed for stemming the tide of new student loans.

1. Privatize student loans entirely


2. Cap the amount students can borrow from the Feds at a very strict limit, i.e. no more than 30,000 total for any undergraduate degree


3. Force colleges to pay a part of any debt that their graduates default on


4. Allow them to be discharged to bankruptcy


5. Require that all employers be informed of prospective employees who have had student loans defaulted on or "forgiven"


6. Some combination of the above policies


7. Eliminate student loans entirely, public and private

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on them.

[Whirlin]

1. Privatize student loans entirely
Bad idea... Students typically have 0 credit history, therefore trying to take out a loan that is unsecured for $30,000 independently? No... It'll end up falling onto the parents, who already clearly cannot afford it, otherwise they wouldn't be taking out the loans in the first place. This would just end up putting a further divide between the haves and have-nots.



2. Cap the amount students can borrow from the Feds at a very strict limit, i.e. no more than 30,000 total for any undergraduate degree
I'm not really sure how this would accomplish anything. If students are unable to pay back their student loans, it's more likely due to a lack of any income, which this would not solve.



3. Force colleges to pay a part of any debt that their graduates default on
I'm not sure where the precedent is that colleges have the financial acumen to make decisions on a potential student's credit worthiness. See point 1.



4. Allow them to be discharged to bankruptcy
You're basically allowing people to children to discharge their debt right out of college when they basically have no assets. I don't see any reason why people wouldn't just make it the norm to declare bankruptcy right out of college to get rid of their student loans.



5. Require that all employers be informed of prospective employees who have had student loans defaulted on or "forgiven"
I'm not sure how this would be enforced. Credit checks can already occur as part of a hiring process, depending on the position you're going for. I'm really not sure why you're trying to further penalize people that have already had documented hardships to the extent where they're unable to pay back their debt. To me, this is adding insult to injury.



6. Some combination of the above policies

I think they're all flawed ideas.


7. Eliminate student loans entirely, public and private

Keep the masses stupid and drive a further wedge between haves and havenots?

[Fallen]

Any suggestions for solutions, Whirlin? Granted, I fully accept there is no magic solution everyone will agree on let alone be universally successful.

Here is one of my own.

Mandate a full course in every public high school dedicated to financial management, focusing primarily on student loans and credit card debt. Education is essential for making an informed decision. People must be made starkly aware of the current financial situation, the loans they would need to complete a 2-year, 4-year, and 6+ year degree, and the length of time it would take to pay it off. The class should also be educated in the programs that are available to them in terms of financial aid, be it from pell grants, federal loans, private loans, scholarships, tuition assistance, etc. Numbers should be derived from actual loan rates at the time of the class. I've heard from many students entering college that they simply didn't understand how to apply for money for higher education, let alone decide between the most efficient ways of borrowing for college.

Some time in the class should be devoted to discussing alternatives to college as well, including trade schools, military service, apprenticeships, etc.

If done in the senior semester, there should be room to fit this type of class into the schedule. A 1-2 hour seminar is by no means acceptable to tackle this much material, especially considering the very immediate impact it will have on many student's lives. It would be FAR more relevant to the average student than many of the classes currently being offered.

[Androidpk]

Any suggestions for solutions, Whirlin? Granted, I fully accept there is no magic solution everyone will agree on let alone be universally successful.

Universal basic income.

[Fallen]

Universal basic income.

For the uninformed, including myself, Definition via Wikipedia - An unconditional basic income (also called basic income, basic income guarantee, universal basic income, universal demogrant,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income#cite_note-1) or citizen’s income) is a proposed system[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income#cite_note-2) of social security (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_security) in which all citizens or residents of a country regularly receive an unconditional sum of money, either from a government or some other public institution, in addition to any income received from elsewhere. A basic income is typically intended to be only enough for a person to survive on, to encourage people to engage in economic activity. A basic income of any amount less than the social minimum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_income#Elements) is sometimes referred to as a "partial basic income". Basic income systems financed on returns to publicly owned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_ownership) enterprises are major components in many proposals for market socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism). Basic income schemes have also been promoted within the context ofcapitalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist) systems, which would be financed through taxation or a negative income tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income#cite_note-Is_Socialism_Dead.3F_A_Comment_on_Market_Socialism _and_Basic_Income_Capitalism.2C_1992-3)

Were you joking? If not, i'd need some context to understand how this would help.

[Warriorbird]

For the uninformed, including myself, Definition via Wikipedia - An unconditional basic income (also called basic income, basic income guarantee, universal basic income, universal demogrant,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income#cite_note-1) or citizen’s income) is a proposed system[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income#cite_note-2) of social security (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_security) in which all citizens or residents of a country regularly receive an unconditional sum of money, either from a government or some other public institution, in addition to any income received from elsewhere. A basic income is typically intended to be only enough for a person to survive on, to encourage people to engage in economic activity. A basic income of any amount less than the social minimum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_income#Elements) is sometimes referred to as a "partial basic income". Basic income systems financed on returns to publicly owned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_ownership) enterprises are major components in many proposals for market socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism). Basic income schemes have also been promoted within the context ofcapitalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist) systems, which would be financed through taxation or a negative income tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income#cite_note-Is_Socialism_Dead.3F_A_Comment_on_Market_Socialism _and_Basic_Income_Capitalism.2C_1992-3)

Were you joking? If not, i'd need some context to understand how this would help.

Some conservatives have argued for it before. It got rejected (till late 2015/2016) in Switzerland, so there can't really be a study of how it'd work.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/08/why-arent-reformicons-pushing-a-guaranteed-basic-income/375600/

EDIT:

Corrected when it'll go up again. The Swiss aren't giving it up.

[Androidpk]

I'm mostly just spit-balling. I do find the idea interesting though, especially because so many jobs in the coming decades will be handed over to machines and software. I don't think many people realize how many jobs are at risk by emerging technologies.

[Fallen]

I'm mostly just spit-balling. I do find the idea interesting though, especially because so many jobs in the coming decades will be handed over to machines and software. I don't think many people realize how many jobs are at risk by emerging technologies.

Especially jobs which do not require some sort of advanced training/degree. However, i'm not a fan of unconditionally free money. I realize that a large proportion of our population already receives what amounts to handouts from the government, but that hasn't really seemed to solve a lot of problems, especially in regards to education. More money for grants for school i'd be for, but as I suggested before, students need to be educated on how to get it, and how much they'll actually need to graduate with a degree. And Briarfox isn't here to call me an asshole for saying so, but I believe a lot of emphasis should go into pointing out which degrees result in what average level of income.

[Warriorbird]

Mandate a full course in every public high school dedicated to financial management, focusing primarily on student loans and credit card debt. Education is essential for making an informed decision. People must be made starkly aware of the current financial situation, the loans they would need to complete a 2-year, 4-year, and 6+ year degree, and the length of time it would take to pay it off. The class should also be educated in the programs that are available to them in terms of financial aid, be it from pell grants, federal loans, private loans, scholarships, tuition assistance, etc. Numbers should be derived from actual loan rates at the time of the class. I've heard from many students entering college that they simply didn't understand how to apply for money for higher education, let alone decide between the most efficient ways of borrowing for college.

Some time in the class should be devoted to discussing alternatives to college as well, including trade schools, military service, apprenticeships, etc.

If done in the senior semester, there should be room to fit this type of class into the schedule. A 1-2 hour seminar is by no means acceptable to tackle this much material, especially considering the very immediate impact it will have on many student's lives. It would be FAR more relevant to the average student than many of the classes currently being offered.

We have it. It's unfortunately using mandated material that's nearly 10 years old, so doesn't click in well with modern reality.


Especially jobs which do not require some sort of advanced training/degree. However, i'm not a fan of unconditionally free money. I realize that a large proportion of our population already receives what amounts to handouts from the government, but that hasn't really seemed to solve a lot of problems, especially in regards to education. More money for grants for school i'd be for, but as I suggested before, students need to be educated on how to get it, and how much they'll actually need to graduate with a degree. And Briarfox isn't here to call me an asshole for saying so, but I believe a lot of emphasis should go into pointing out which degrees result in what average level of income.

The unintended consequence of that is putting people in the right degrees for the wrong reasons. It can also glut markets with the ineffective.

[Fallen]

We have it. It's unfortunately using mandated material that's nearly 10 years old, so doesn't click in well with modern reality.

Really? I don't remember getting it, but I graduated in '01. Have a link with what is taught there? My google is weak ATM.


The unintended consequence of that is putting people in the right degrees for the wrong reasons. It can also glut markets with the ineffective.

I suppose, but there should also be a few strong words of caution for anyone looking to take out 60k+ in student loans for an art history degree.

[Warriorbird]

Really? I don't remember getting it, but I graduated in '01. Have a link with what is taught there?



I suppose, but there should also be a few strong words of caution for anyone looking to take out 60k+ in student loans for an art history degree.

States got money for making their own programs. Virginia's is from circa '04, so a bit after '01. I also don't think all states got the grants.

There should definitely be words of caution for people who take out 60k plus student loans to get an art history degree, but I know many more failed MBAs and JDs than I do people with Art History degrees.

Here's the Standards. The issue is more with the provided curriculum that most schools run (because it was free.)

http://www.doe.virginia.gov/testing/sol/standards_docs/economics_personal_finance/index.shtml

[Fallen]

Thanks. I'll poke around.

Edited to add: The word college (or higher education) isn't used once in the full course outline.
http://www.doe.virginia.gov/testing/sol/standards_docs/economics_personal_finance/economics_personal_finance_sol.pdf

While this class teaches useful concepts, I definitely believe there is room for a class focused specifically on student loans, specific types of debt, and immediate planning after exiting high school, including how to apply for grants and the whole FAFSA application process.

[Warriorbird]

Thanks. I'll poke around.

Edited to add: The word college (or higher education) isn't used once in the full course outline.
http://www.doe.virginia.gov/testing/sol/standards_docs/economics_personal_finance/economics_personal_finance_sol.pdf

While this class teaches useful concepts, I definitely believe there is room for a class focused specifically on student loans, specific types of debt, and immediate planning after exiting high school, including how to apply for grants and the whole FAFSA application process.

I agree. I believe the original grant from the US DOE that Virginia got just implied that it teach "economics and personal finance."

My school's English teacher and I try to run some of that stuff, since we got nowhere with our FAFSA suggestion with our Economics department, but it obviously isn't the same as if it was in the class.

[Fallen]

I agree. I believe the original grant from the US DOE that Virginia got just implied that it teach "economics and personal finance."

My school's English teacher and I try to run some of that stuff, since we got nowhere with our FAFSA suggestion with our Economics department, but it obviously isn't the same as if it was in the class.

Well good on you for trying. I think everyone would agree a lack of education of the whole situation is a big part of the problem.

[~Rocktar~]

There should definitely be words of caution for people who take out 60k plus student loans to get an art history degree, but I know many more failed MBAs and JDs than I do people with Art History degrees.

On an unrelated note, I read an article last month about how in so many rural areas they don't have access to legal assistance either for prosecutors, public defenders office or just plain have a lawyer available without a long trip to a metro area. Seems to me if some of those JDs got off their butt and were willing to move to rural areas of the US they could get decent work. They may not make millions but a decent living helping people that need it in a community that would welcome you can't be all bad. Apparently, from the article, some places are offering help with loans and so on.

[Warriorbird]

On an unrelated note, I read an article last month about how in so many rural areas they don't have access to legal assistance either for prosecutors, public defenders office or just plain have a lawyer available without a long trip to a metro area. Seems to me if some of those JDs got off their butt and were willing to move to rural areas of the US they could get decent work. They may not make millions but a decent living helping people that need it in a community that would welcome you can't be all bad. Apparently, from the article, some places are offering help with loans and so on.

I wish more of them took the opportunity to travel. A lot of them are still in Louisiana, in cities, struggling, and unwilling to do public defense work because Bobby Jindal whacked public defender salaries so much there that they think they wouldn't earn enough to get by.

I'm pretty lucky in retrospect. Family business stuff plus my teaching salary mean I'm okay.

[Latrinsorm]

Any suggestions for solutions, Whirlin? Granted, I fully accept there is no magic solution everyone will agree on let alone be universally successful.

Here is one of my own.

Mandate a full course in every public high school dedicated to financial management, focusing primarily on student loans and credit card debt. Education is essential for making an informed decision. People must be made starkly aware of the current financial situation, the loans they would need to complete a 2-year, 4-year, and 6+ year degree, and the length of time it would take to pay it off. The class should also be educated in the programs that are available to them in terms of financial aid, be it from pell grants, federal loans, private loans, scholarships, tuition assistance, etc. Numbers should be derived from actual loan rates at the time of the class. I've heard from many students entering college that they simply didn't understand how to apply for money for higher education, let alone decide between the most efficient ways of borrowing for college.

Some time in the class should be devoted to discussing alternatives to college as well, including trade schools, military service, apprenticeships, etc.

If done in the senior semester, there should be room to fit this type of class into the schedule. A 1-2 hour seminar is by no means acceptable to tackle this much material, especially considering the very immediate impact it will have on many student's lives. It would be FAR more relevant to the average student than many of the classes currently being offered.Relevant to their interests, sure, but since when has that mattered to high school kids or any other human beings? I submit that we have an established and effective practice for these kind of "they ought to but they won't" situations, and it is a strong federal government. In this case, I think the best solution is the direct one: price controls. It's not like we have to worry about turning higher education people into socialists, right?
Were you joking? If not, i'd need some context to understand how this would help.I saw a study once (can't remember where) that the old style welfare system of "here, have some money" was more effective at getting people out of poverty than "we'll only pay for necessities", and obviously required less overhead for planning, enforcement, etc. How much this can be extended to education specifically, I don't know, but obviously proposing such a system would instantly explode every self-proclaimed conservative's head, so we're stuck with what we got regardless.
I suppose, but there should also be a few strong words of caution for anyone looking to take out 60k+ in student loans for an art history degree.Then again, isn't the definition of art that which isn't useful in itself but nevertheless valuable for a civilization? Surely we can agree that what is beneficial to the individual is not necessarily what is beneficial to the society, yet the individual cannot survive without the society. Maybe the Roman Empire fell not just because it was agrarian but because it overemphasized what it deemed useful (military) at the expense of true culture: name one Roman artist or philosopher or scientist, you can't.
I wish more of them took the opportunity to travel. A lot of them are still in Louisiana, in cities, struggling, and unwilling to do public defense work because Bobby Jindal whacked public defender salaries so much there that they think they wouldn't earn enough to get by.

I'm pretty lucky in retrospect. Family business stuff plus my teaching salary mean I'm okay.Also... you don't live in Louisiana. Talk about good luck! Not that good because you're still Dixie-adjacent, but still.

[Gelston]

Stop trying to bait me, Latrine.

[Latrinsorm]

Who are you again? I try to bait a lot of lessers, it's hard to keep you all straight.

[Gelston]

Who are you again? I try to bait a lot of lessers, it's hard to keep you all straight.

You're so gay.

[Latrinsorm]

I think this song is about me, it's a safe bet.

[Warriorbird]

I think this song is about me, it's a safe bet.

I just get confused whether you're in that category or the "Bye, bye, Miss American Pie..." category.

Because let's face it. Who loves Kina Grannis more than you? I'm not even sure she does.

[Latrinsorm]

I just get confused whether you're in that category or the "Bye, bye, Miss American Pie..." category.

Because let's face it. Who loves Kina Grannis more than you? I'm not even sure she does.She is a self-hater like me, but I know at least four people who love her more than me: her parents, her husband, and another fan. Trust me, he's from Pennsylvania.

Come to think of it though I do drive a Chevy. FONOGO

[Gelston]

She is a self-hater like me, but I know at least four people who love her more than me: her parents, her husband, and another fan. Trust me, he's from Pennsylvania.

Come to think of it though I do drive a Chevy. FONOGO

Are you upset that she is married to someone that is not you?

[Latrinsorm]

No.

[Warriorbird]

No.

Fair enough. That sets Lebron above her in your great loves category, doesn't it?

[Latrinsorm]

Maaaaaaaaaybe. ~_^

[Androidpk]

I don't know how he could love Lebron considering he smokes marijuana.

[Warriorbird]

I don't know how he could love Lebron considering he smokes marijuana.

He loves that Hannibal show. Psychosis fetish.

[Alashir]

18 credits is full time. If you are working a full time job, you really probably shouldn't be going to full time college.

Isn't this half the reason behind the proposed bill?

[Alashir]

You taking summer courses is of course your option. Personally, I took a year off between high school and college and had to work/save money to go to college. $1600 a semester is still a small sum of money, considering it would take you 4 weeks to save up for that semester, with your job. Summer has 8 weeks.. there's the full year right there... which is not including another job you have while going to college.

And that's not even addressing any other sources of financial aid.

I have very little sympathy for someone who says they need this handout because otherwise they couldn't go to community college.

Working with Oregon's $9.00 minimum wage (which is higher than most states) brings you to around $1440/month before taxes. After taxes you're looking at what, maybe 1100 if you're lucky? Now you're paying for rent/utilities/insurance/food/etc plus you're supposed to save money to go to school? It's not realistic unless you're living at home in which case FAFSA is going to be looking at your parents income when deciding how much financial aid to give. If you're lucky enough to have parents who allow you to live at home rent free while they clothe and feed you, you might be able to work it out while attending CC, but if you end up going to a state school (god forbid a private institution) there's no way to get enough financial aid when you apply and it uses your parental income to generate your needs as a result of living at home the last 2 years.

I don't know if this was the scenario you came from although it's certainly fits what you described. This bill is essentially there to ease a students transition out of the home and onto his/her own so they aren't crippled when it comes to transitioning to a 4 year institution.

[Latrinsorm]

I don't know how he could love Lebron considering he smokes marijuana.I don't blame LeBron for being taken in by propaganda any more than I blame anyone here. That's what propaganda does. Without training in a hard science you never stood a chance.
He loves that Hannibal show. Psychosis fetish.Art pour l'art, non le politique. Alors, mon baguette! Sacrebleu.

Cordially,
Dictated, not read,
Latrinsorm al-Latrin

[Kembal]

If they couldn't motivate themselves to get a job to pay for community college, it's unlikely they will work hard to get A's and B's... so we're probably not talking about the same group of people.

Then we're off the hook for paying for their community college, right? If they don't get the grades, then not a problem.


Give me some examples of tax loopholes you would like to close that would be able to pay for this program. We might actually agree!

Hmm. Ethanol tax credit would pay for it. I think you hate that one too. Sound good?


What difference would 2 House seats make? And even if Udall and Hagan won, Democrats would still be in the minority in the Senate.

Boehner's got at least 25 Republicans that he cannot count on to provide votes for legislation (since they voted against him for Speaker since they think he's not conservative enough). Narrowing the margin of the majority, even by one or two votes, might force Boehner to rely upon Democratic votes to get must-pass legislation out of the House, which would limit the amount of attempted policy changes by the Republicans. As for 2 more Senate seats, makes filibusters harder to break, and makes it easier to take back the majority in 2016.

[Atlanteax]

Any way you slice it, student loans are a big problem. Over 40 million Americans have student loans, of which 7 million have defaulted, totalling 1.2 trillion dollars. 25% of graduate students owe something like 100k, 10% owing 150k+

Free community college is not the solution to the above problem. If anything, it might exacerbate the situation as more people would go on to continue school without the government picking up the tab. I would rather see serious programs/policies aimed at tackling the existing student loan debt problems before we passively encourage further burrowing.

That being said, you can't just say, "We've spent too much already!" and then do nothing to address 1. The student loan problem, or 2. The lack of higher education in a sizable proportion of the population. Something must be done, and at a scale this large, it will need to involve the government. That doesn't necessarily mean the government hand wave away the debt, or pay for it themselves, but even the most conservative would agree policy changes are in order at a minimum to stop the situation from worsening. If nothing is done, the problem will get worse, not better. That much is certain.

Here are some conservative ideas i've seen proposed for stemming the tide of new student loans.

1. Privatize student loans entirely


2. Cap the amount students can borrow from the Feds at a very strict limit, i.e. no more than 30,000 total for any undergraduate degree


3. Force colleges to pay a part of any debt that their graduates default on


4. Allow them to be discharged to bankruptcy


5. Require that all employers be informed of prospective employees who have had student loans defaulted on or "forgiven"


6. Some combination of the above policies


7. Eliminate student loans entirely, public and private

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on them.

Best Fix:

Society no longer expects every high school graduate to go to college (just those that do particularly well, academically-wise).

Community college = 'the fall-back option' for a piece of paper. Ensuring that it is 'free'/universal only reduces its value even further.

Over the long-run, less individuals going to college = lower tuition for all involved.

[Fallen]

Best Fix:

Society no longer expects every high school graduate to go to college (just those that do particularly well, academically-wise).

Community college = 'the fall-back option' for a piece of paper. Ensuring that it is 'free'/universal only reduces its value even further.

Over the long-run, less individuals going to college = lower tuition for all involved.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/02/11/study-income-gap-between-young-college-and-high-school-grads-widens

[Atlanteax]

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/02/11/study-income-gap-between-young-college-and-high-school-grads-widens

Of course there will be an income gap.

Not everyone is a rocket scientist.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I'm curious, for those who are proponents of the Government paying for two years of CC;

Who do you think it will benefit?
Who will ultimately pay for it?
Why is it the responsibility of the Government to do this?

and on a different note...
Why do we care if anyone puts themselves into thousands of dollars of debt to pay for school?

I'm not sure what the rules are for student loans, not having participated in them, but if you default on them, what happens? Can you declare bankruptcy and not pay them?

Our society needs to hold people accountable for the actions. Too often we forgive people for not holding up their end of a contract (like paying their debts) and somehow we've gotten to a place where people think it's ok to be a dirtbag who's word means nothing. There are always extreme circumstances created by unforeseen hardships, but simply not paying your bills is not a hardship, it's a choice. People use credit cards irresponsibly, don't know how to save, can't think beyond today and yet somehow I'm supposed to feel sympathetic to them because they cannot afford something? Financial education should be a required course starting in junior high until graduation.

[AnticorRifling]

I have a high school diploma, I make more than the median income of the degree holders in that report. I really hate reading degree = qualification. What's the degree in? Do you actually have some experience or are you just a paper tiger?

[AnticorRifling]

I'm curious, for those who are proponents of the Government paying for two years of CC;

Who do you think it will benefit?
Who will ultimately pay for it?
Why is it the responsibility of the Government to do this?

and on a different note...
Why do we care if anyone puts themselves into thousands of dollars of debt to pay for school?

I'm not sure what the rules are for student loans, not having participated in them, but if you default on them, what happens? Can you declare bankruptcy and not pay them?

Our society needs to hold people accountable for the actions. Too often we forgive people for not holding up their end of a contract (like paying their debts) and somehow we've gotten to a place where people think it's ok to be a dirtbag who's word means nothing. There are always extreme circumstances created by unforeseen hardships, but simply not paying your bills is not a hardship, it's a choice. People use credit cards irresponsibly, don't know how to save, can't think beyond today and yet somehow I'm supposed to feel sympathetic to them because they cannot afford something? Financial education should be a required course starting in junior high until graduation.

Student loan debt doesn't go away via bankruptcy.

[Fallen]

I have a high school diploma, I make more than the median income of the degree holders in that report. I really hate reading degree = qualification. What's the degree in? Do you actually have some experience or are you just a paper tiger?

Aren't you either taking classes now and/or have higher education in the form of multiple certifications in your field?

[AnticorRifling]

Aren't you either taking classes now and/or have higher education in the form of multiple certifications in your field?

I'm in class now because it's free but it didn't have an impact on my salary. Higher education in the form of certifications, nope...Well that's not totally true, I have a bunch of system specific certifications for things I'll never get to touch in the civilian sector. I've got experience, actual experience.

And as someone pursuant a degree I can tell you from what I've seen it's a joke. It might be different in scientific or medical fields but this IT degree makes me sad thinking these people are going to graduate and saturate the market as "qualified".

[Tenlaar]

I've got experience, actual experience.

And how long ago did you get your foot in the door in your particular field?

[Whirlin]

I'm curious, for those who are proponents of the Government paying for two years of CC;

Who do you think it will benefit?
Who will ultimately pay for it?
Why is it the responsibility of the Government to do this?

and on a different note...
Why do we care if anyone puts themselves into thousands of dollars of debt to pay for school?

I'm not sure what the rules are for student loans, not having participated in them, but if you default on them, what happens? Can you declare bankruptcy and not pay them?

Our society needs to hold people accountable for the actions. Too often we forgive people for not holding up their end of a contract (like paying their debts) and somehow we've gotten to a place where people think it's ok to be a dirtbag who's word means nothing. There are always extreme circumstances created by unforeseen hardships, but simply not paying your bills is not a hardship, it's a choice. People use credit cards irresponsibly, don't know how to save, can't think beyond today and yet somehow I'm supposed to feel sympathetic to them because they cannot afford something? Financial education should be a required course starting in junior high until graduation.

There's a difference between individual accountability, and system that prohibits perspective students due to their family's income levels. Reducing socio-economic mobility only hinders progress, and leads to a bigger gap between haves and have-nots, and has historically spured revolution type conditions.

[AnticorRifling]

And how long ago did you get your foot in the door in your particular field?

I started in my field when I was 16 with my first part time job. From there MOS in the Marine Corps. From there hired into the civilian sector.

[Whirlin]

I started in my field when I was 16 with my first part time job. From there MOS in the Marine Corps. From there hired into the civilian sector.

What were they saying average salaries were? There were a bunch of numbers that I didn't want to go through.

I graduated from the same college (now university) as Bobmuhthol with a masters, and jumped ship four times since graduating to double my salary.

[crb]

I don't know how I feel about this idea. Community college is a useful starting point for students looking to further their higher education cheaply and efficiently, but it can also be a complete waste of time if you aren't dedicated and have an end-goal in mind. I'd like to hear thoughts on this from the PC. I can't imagine most here would view the plan favorably.

1. I don't think Obama has much credibility on this issue, I think for him the primary motivation is not to help students, but to help all the various unionized employees of community colleges. In short, he is trying to drum up demand for more union jobs.

2. It is already pretty cheap and there are numerous programs available to people to reduce the costs. I wasn't aware that cost was keeping people out of community colleges.

3. Economically speaking, when the government subsidizes something, costs tent to increase.

4. I worry this would have the same negative effects that federal subsidized student loans and grants already have. Namely insulate students from having to make economic decisions about their course of study and future job prospects thus resulting in a mismatch between what the job market needs and what colleges turn out, to the benefit of no one except the employees who work and teach in these unneeded college programs.

The plan says "occupational training programs with high graduation rates and lead to in-demand degrees and certificates." but you're telling me that defining precisely what those are wouldn't be politicized and we'd end up with a very liberal definition of "in-demand"?

Merit based community college scholarships are a good thing (many already exist), community colleges focusing more on jobs than esoteric academic fields are a good thing, all students going to a community college first, then transfering to a 4 year university if applicable, is a good thing. I trust the federal government's ability to do any of that efficiently about as much as I would trust North Korea running a movie studio.

[Whirlin]

1. I don't think Obama has much credibility on this issue, I think for him the primary motivation is not to help students, but to help all the various unionized employees of community colleges. In short, he is trying to drum up demand for more union jobs.

Do you have anything to support this opinion? It seems to stem predominantly from a negative view on Obama rather than anything brought up in the spattering of posts I've read in this thread.

I'd think there'd be a lot more low-hanging fruit to cinch some votes rather than aiming for employees of community colleges.

[AnticorRifling]

What were they saying average salaries were? There were a bunch of numbers that I didn't want to go through.

I graduated from the same college (now university) as Bobmuhthol with a masters, and jumped ship four times since graduating to double my salary.

That report is saying that the median annual earnings for 16-32 with a bachelor's degree is 45,500. With just a high school diploma that median annual earnings figure drops to 28,000.

[Kembal]

I'm curious, for those who are proponents of the Government paying for two years of CC;

Who do you think it will benefit?

Individuals and corporations. Individuals will get some amount of higher education that will make them more qualified for certain jobs that result in higher wages. Corporations will get more qualified employees.


Who will ultimately pay for it?

Taxpayers.


Why is it the responsibility of the Government to do this?

Given the trend for more and more jobs to require some sort of college degree and/or advanced trade school education, there's no other force out there that can make a major shift to align our education system with the needs of the economy. I'll give one example....our company now requires a college degree to be hired as a customer service rep. We obviously pay more for the position than our competitors (who don't require college degrees, from what we know), but we get much better performance from them than when we used to hire people with only a high school diploma. (which was only less than 10 years ago) More and more jobs are going in that direction.


and on a different note...
Why do we care if anyone puts themselves into thousands of dollars of debt to pay for school?

I'm not sure what the rules are for student loans, not having participated in them, but if you default on them, what happens? Can you declare bankruptcy and not pay them?

Can't discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy. If people have huge amounts of student loan debt, they wait longer to get married, buy a house, etc. Those are all economically significant activities, and it hampers economic growth. Now, if you're able to graduate, you'll, at some point, earn enough wages to pay off the debt. However, if you're not able to graduate (not simply because of academic failure/laziness, but something like family medical issues, having to work a job or jobs to make ends meet, unexpected pregnancy, or an unforeseen hardship etc.), the lack of degree + significant student loan debt is killer.

[Gelston]

Having more educated people is always better for the future of a country. I don't see what is so hard to understand.

[Fallen]

I started in my field when I was 16 with my first part time job. From there MOS in the Marine Corps. From there hired into the civilian sector.

Is your military training in any way related to your job? Military training should definitely be counted as higher education. There is an ongoing push to draw a direct parity between training and college credits and/or technical certifications. Hell, even if the job wasn't related to your MOS, military training in general is valued as a form of education.

I for a while was drawing quite a large salary without a day of college education...but I was qualified for my job due to my position in the military.

Regardless, this is all anecdotal.

[Gelston]

Is your military training in any way related to your job? Military training should definitely be counted as higher education. There is an ongoing push to draw a direct parity between training and college credits and/or technical certifications. Hell, even if the job wasn't related to your MOS, military training in general is valued as a form of education.

I for a while was drawing quite a large salary without a day of college education...but I was qualified for my position due to my position in the military.

Regardless, this is all anecdotal.

It is, in some fields, accepted in lieu of college.

[Fallen]

It is, in some fields, accepted in lieu of college.

As it should be, considering we have the best military in the world. I just know in some fields soldiers get screwed because there is no established process for taking their military training and converting it to certifications in the private sector.

[Gelston]

As it should be, considering we have the best military in the world. I just know in some fields soldiers get screwed because there is no established process for taking their military training and converting it to certifications in the private sector.

In the Marines there is a program that all separating members go through called TAPS. Part of it is that they have some people that work at this place the translate military jobs into civilian jobs. I was an 0311 (infantry) so I mostly got law enforcement equivalencies.

[Hightower]

You know, I'm 100% in agreement with the conservative ideals of personal responsibility. However, I can't help but think that investment in education is money better spent than a great many of the expenses we justify on the taxpayer bill. How much would this cost? Would it cost the billions we literally throw away in multi-year many-billion-dollar military contracts that produce nothing of value beyond lining the pockets of politicians, lobbyists, and big-name contractors? How many of those have we canceled after running years over deadline and millions or billions over budget? Where does that money go and when do we hold all involved accountable the way we do the poor when discussing social programs?

On the other hand, this is a government program. How much of the money reaches those it's intended to benefit? Or is this yet another way to bilk the taxpayers out of more money?

~Taverkin

[Androidpk]

In the Marines there is a program that all separating members go through called TAPS. Part of it is that they have some people that work at this place the translate military jobs into civilian jobs. I was an 0311 (infantry) so I mostly got law enforcement equivalencies.

AF has a program too but it was complete garbage and didn't help me at all.

[Atlanteax]

Having more educated people is always better for the future of a country. I don't see what is so hard to understand.

There are a ton of unmotivated people (the large portion of our high school peers that are underachievers) who go to college to 'party' and then want their debts forgiven because they struggle to find a cushy job.

Why are we clamoring to increase taxes and spend it on people of underwhelming potential?

Nearly everyday we are encountering (random) people in real life, that we readily identify as idiots (with cause) ... 'more education' is not going to help them become any 'smarter'.

[caelric]

AF has a program too but it was complete garbage and didn't help me at all.

USMC TAPS did not used to be very good, but over the past 10 years or so, has been increasing in quality significantly. Same with all the services.

[Gelston]

There are a ton of unmotivated people (the large portion of our high school peers that are underachievers) who go to college to 'party' and then want their debts forgiven because they struggle to find a cushy job.

Why are we clamoring to increase taxes and spend it on people of underwhelming potential?

Nearly everyday we are encountering (random) people in real life, that we readily identify as idiots (with cause) ... 'more education' is not going to help them become any 'smarter'.

If they don't make the grades, they don't stay in school. It is as simple as that and part of this plan.

[Atlanteax]

If they don't make the grades, they don't stay in school. It is as simple as that and part of this plan.

Yes because a 2.5 out of 4, at a community college ... is going to be *so hard*.

"Oh (student), you did a terrible job with your tests & assignments, but I am not going to fail you because that would mean less $$$ for the school and (the paying of) my salary, so I'm going to give you a B-".

[Warriorbird]

Yes because a 2.5 out of 4, at a community college ... is going to be *so hard*.

"Oh (student), you did a terrible job with your tests & assignments, but I am not going to fail you because that would mean less $$$ for the school and (the paying of) my salary, so I'm going to give you a B-".

You'd be surprised. I see a lot of lazy idiots kicked right out of community college. There is no grade inflation pressure in actual community college courses as opposed to dual enrollment.


1. I don't think Obama has much credibility on this issue, I think for him the primary motivation is not to help students, but to help all the various unionized employees of community colleges. In short, he is trying to drum up demand for more union jobs.

2. It is already pretty cheap and there are numerous programs available to people to reduce the costs. I wasn't aware that cost was keeping people out of community colleges.

3. Economically speaking, when the government subsidizes something, costs tent to increase.

4. I worry this would have the same negative effects that federal subsidized student loans and grants already have. Namely insulate students from having to make economic decisions about their course of study and future job prospects thus resulting in a mismatch between what the job market needs and what colleges turn out, to the benefit of no one except the employees who work and teach in these unneeded college programs.

The plan says "occupational training programs with high graduation rates and lead to in-demand degrees and certificates." but you're telling me that defining precisely what those are wouldn't be politicized and we'd end up with a very liberal definition of "in-demand"?

Merit based community college scholarships are a good thing (many already exist), community colleges focusing more on jobs than esoteric academic fields are a good thing, all students going to a community college first, then transfering to a 4 year university if applicable, is a good thing. I trust the federal government's ability to do any of that efficiently about as much as I would trust North Korea running a movie studio.

Most community colleges around here are no different than public school, completely outside union membership.

[Gelston]

Yes because a 2.5 out of 4, at a community college ... is going to be *so hard*.

"Oh (student), you did a terrible job with your tests & assignments, but I am not going to fail you because that would mean less $$$ for the school and (the paying of) my salary, so I'm going to give you a B-".\

Are you done making stuff up yet to try and prove a position on something that doesn't exist yet? Well, except in the form of Pell Grants.

[AnticorRifling]

Is your military training in any way related to your job? Military training should definitely be counted as higher education.
Regardless, this is all anecdotal.

I'm not sure where you're getting the feeling that military training in general is valued as a form of education or it should be counted. While I agree, from what I've seen that is simply not the case.

[AnticorRifling]

Yes because a 2.5 out of 4, at a community college ... is going to be *so hard*.

"Oh (student), you did a terrible job with your tests & assignments, but I am not going to fail you because that would mean less $$$ for the school and (the paying of) my salary, so I'm going to give you a B-".

That's not just at community colleges.

[Gelston]

I'm not sure where you're getting the feeling that military training in general is valued as a form of education or it should be counted. While I agree, from what I've seen that is simply not the case.

I think it heavily depends on the job, but would generally lean towards technical education and experience in the field already.

I've trolled around USA Jobs a few times, and there are a few jobs you can use military experience in particular things to get into a spot that usually requires a 4 year degree. One of them I recall was Contracting Officer, 4 year degree OR time in the military working contracts.


That's not just at community colleges.

I'd think it'd be a lot less at community colleges. More often than not, people don't use their GI Bill or whatever outside Scholarship to hit up a CC. On top of that, the people I see be busted for that (diploma mills) are usually those for profit private 4 years.

[AnticorRifling]

I think it heavily depends on the job, but would generally lean towards technical education and experience in the field already.

I've trolled around USA Jobs a few times, and there are a few jobs you can use military experience in particular things to get into a spot that usually requires a 4 year degree. One of them I recall was Contracting Officer, 4 year degree OR time in the military working contracts.



I'd think it'd be a lot less at community colleges. More often than not, people don't use their GI Bill or whatever outside Scholarship to hit up a CC. On top of that, the people I see be busted for that (diploma mills) are usually those for profit private 4 years.

Some of the kids in my classes...no way they should be passing but they keep showing up and my guess is because the checks keep clearing.

[Gelston]

Some of the kids in my classes...no way they should be passing but they keep showing up and my guess is because the checks keep clearing.

I assume you didn't grade their tests or any of that though, right? I've known plenty of people, especially in college, who had no common sense, asked retarded questions, seemed like a box of rocks... Still did great on tests.

Community colleges are all public schools. Their teachers and staff get paid no matter what checks they are getting.

[AnticorRifling]

I assume you didn't grade their tests or any of that though, right? I've known plenty of people, especially in college, who had no common sense, asked retarded questions, seemed like a box of rocks... Still did great on tests.

I've proof read their papers, I've seen the work they've submitted or rather seen the work that was submitted WEEKS late that by the policy should count as 0...and they still get an A or B. It's serious horse shit.

[Gelston]

I've proof read their papers, I've seen the work they've submitted or rather seen the work that was submitted WEEKS late that by the policy should count as 0...and they still get an A or B. It's serious horse shit.

Late work should be a 0. I don't doubt there are some professors that will help out someone a bit much... In my college experience though, those were few and far between and were generally only during summer classes.

[Fallen]

I'm not sure where you're getting the feeling that military training in general is valued as a form of education or it should be counted. While I agree, from what I've seen that is simply not the case.

I know that in the medical side of things, there is a lot bigger push for parity. Some people can actually leave AIT with an Associates, others get at least a few full classes out of the way. You will also find Basic Training fulfills a number of basic requirements as well. It's not perfect and it needs improvement, but the job training is valued. Aside from that, i've found military service to be an asset on your resume in of itself, and that is not even counting the added benefit of becoming a non-com.

[Warriorbird]

Community colleges are all public schools. Their teachers and staff get paid no matter what checks they are getting.

This needs to be reiterated. I know a community college teacher with four classes of five each.

[Parkbandit]

Most community colleges around here are no different than public school, completely outside union membership.

That's what I thought.. didn't realize community colleges were unionized. I doubt that is his motivation... but my tin foil hat is at the cleaners currently...

[Tgo01]

All this talk about community college professors not caring if their students pass or fail or professors passing their students along to look good sure makes me want to support this idea even more :D

[crb]

You'd be surprised. I see a lot of lazy idiots kicked right out of community college. There is no grade inflation pressure in actual community college courses as opposed to dual enrollment.



Most community colleges around here are no different than public school, completely outside union membership.

Uh... wut? Where you live both college teachers and public school teachers are not in unions? Where is this amazing fantasyland?

Here, in Amurica, there are these things called "teacher unions" and teachers are parts of them. Seriously I'm not kidding. My brother teachers at community colleges and is in a union. Most administrative employees are also in unions which are affiliated with teacher unions, though some are in the UAW (weirdest thing ever, administrative school staff in the UAW, but that is the case).

There is this neat tool called Google...

https://www.google.com/search?q=community+college+teacher+union&oq=community+college+teacher+union

[crb]

Do you have anything to support this opinion? It seems to stem predominantly from a negative view on Obama rather than anything brought up in the spattering of posts I've read in this thread.

I'd think there'd be a lot more low-hanging fruit to cinch some votes rather than aiming for employees of community colleges.

I'm not longer invited to White House strategy meetings unfortunately, there was this incident with a twinkie and I got removed from the list.

To me, and yes I dislike Obama because he is a the worst sort of caricature of a politician, like I said, Obama has no credibility. He has shown a pattern during his presidency of trying to mostly shore up union supporters and providing a sort of quid pro quo to his backers, which are unions. He regularly asks for funding to increase demand for services that, surprise surprise, are largely fulfilled by union employees. I don't trust his motivation here, I don't trust his ability to execute any plan. I do not trust that his caveats would make it into any final implementation (if you like your plan you can keep it, etc). He has a track record of promising things and not following through at all, in a way in which he takes a liberal ideal and tries to form a middle ground position where he will guard it against fraud and abuse or wasteful spending, he wasteful regulations, etc, etc, etc, to help his image politically, but when the policy actually hits the pavement none of that is anywhere to be seen.

Would I be in favor of a completely objective CC funding system that statistically identified in which fields we have worker needs using aggregate statistics drawn from various databases of job openings and then matched those jobs with prospective students with middling to good grades in high school but poor socioeconomic standing and provide them free tuition to earn one of these degrees or certificates with regular monitoring of their grades and progress to completion? Sure - though there is still something to be said of the distortive power of government in this regards, but so long as it was truly objective and the funding changed as the job market needs changed, okay.

Do I trust the federal government to really do that? No. Do I trust Obama to do it? Hell no.

The first thing you'd have is special interest groups lobbying to remove to loosen the definition of 'in demand' so that their field is included. More special interest groups would lobby to soften the "progress to completion" requirement allowing students to drift aimless in the community college for a long time racking up credits on taxpayer dollars but without any progress to a degree (tons of electives). Then, it would never change in respect to the job market, it would never shrink if job openings shrank, it would grow perpetually year in and year out and become another "can't cut" program. It would also be fraught with abuse from schools looking to keep students enrolled, even if they're failing or not even showing up, so they can get more federal gravy.

That is sort of the thing with spending other people's money, you don't much care if you're getting a big deal. The two areas with the most cost inflation in our economy, medicine and higher education, are the two areas where we spend other people's money. This is not a coincidence. When the consumer of a service is not the purchaser of a service the consumer you end up with a disconnect in normal market forces that otherwise would naturally push price down and quality up. There is a reason why prices fall for breast implants and laser eye surgery, but rise for back surgery and hospitalizations.

[Atlanteax]

If they don't make the grades, they don't stay in school. It is as simple as that and part of this plan.


That's not just at community colleges.


Yes because a 2.5 out of 4, at a community college ... is going to be *so hard*.

"Oh (student), you did a terrible job with your tests & assignments, but I am not going to fail you because that would mean less $$$ for the school and (the paying of) my salary, so I'm going to give you a B-".

Yes, but it will be SOP (standard operating procedure) once community colleges are an extension of high school (teachers graduating students to avoid the hassle of their parents and other considerations).

[Gelston]

Yes, but it will be SOP (standard operating procedure) once community colleges are an extension of high school (teachers graduating students to avoid the hassle of their parents and other considerations).

The community college here, BPCC, started as basically a 13th and 14th grade for Airline High School. It was billed as a commuter junior college, with school buses and everything. It, for all intents and purposes, was a direct extension to high school. What you are worried about? Yeah... That never happened.

You seem to be more worried about things that you perceive as already happening. If that is the case, then fix that. It isn't inclusive to this proposal.


All this talk about community college professors not caring if their students pass or fail or professors passing their students along to look good sure makes me want to support this idea even more :D

It isn't to show that they don't care if their students pass or fail. Most do, as long as the student is actually showing up and learning. Community Colleges are public. They are paid by the state. They don't have any reason to operate like one of this For Profit Diploma Mills.

[Tgo01]

I also wonder; if everyone has a two year degree from a community college, is it special anymore? Like, won't all jobs just require a two year community college degree, even being a department manager at Walmart? Won't the real jobs require like doctorates and shit? Okay I'm exaggerating slightly on the last one there.

[Gelston]

I also wonder; if everyone has a two year degree from a community college, is it special anymore? Like, won't all jobs just require a two year community college degree, even being a department manager at Walmart? Won't the real jobs require like doctorates and shit? Okay I'm exaggerating slightly on the last one there.

Tons of people still don't get High School Diplomas. I don't think you need to worry about losing your Taco Bell drive-thru captain job just yet.

To add to that, none of the jobs I have looked at have ever really cared much for an Associate Degree. It was a Bachelors or nothing.

[Androidpk]

I also wonder; if everyone has a two year degree from a community college, is it special anymore? Like, won't all jobs just require a two year community college degree, even being a department manager at Walmart? Won't the real jobs require like doctorates and shit? Okay I'm exaggerating slightly on the last one there.

Uh.. is education inflation even a thing?

[Tgo01]

I don't think you need to worry about losing your Taco Bell drive-thru captain job just yet.

Whew! I don't want to lose my free taco lunch and Taco Bell discount.


Uh.. is education inflation even a thing?

Yes.

[Gelston]

Uh.. is education inflation even a thing?

Sorta. It has a hard cap though. It'll never be to the point that most companies require a PhD to fill a secretary position, for instance. It is mostly based on job availability and unemployment percents. When we are doing great and there are jobs all over, it isn't a big deal. In bad times when there are less, then sure.

[Tgo01]

When we are doing great and there are jobs all over, it isn't a big deal. In bad times when there are less, then sure.

Exactly. When workers are hurting for jobs then employers can pick and choose the exact candidate they want. When employers are hurting for workers they tend to be a little less picky.

[Gelston]

Exactly. When workers are hurting for jobs then employers can pick and choose the exact candidate they want. When employers are hurting for workers they tend to be a little less picky.

And the guy with a bachelor's will beat out the guy with an associates every time. What is your logic?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

The community college here, BPCC, started as basically a 13th and 14th grade for Airline High School. It was billed as a commuter junior college, with school buses and everything. It, for all intents and purposes, was a direct extension to high school. What you are worried about? Yeah... That never happened.

You seem to be more worried about things that you perceive as already happening. If that is the case, then fix that. It isn't inclusive to this proposal.

Taking your anecdotal experience versus others hypothetical situation equates to a lot of nothing.

[Androidpk]

Hmm. This brings me back to my comment I made about jobs being taken over by robots and AI. What are we supposed to do, invent new jobs?

[Gelston]

Taking your anecdotal experience versus others hypothetical situation equates to a lot of nothing.

Everything on the PC equates to a lot of nothing. Including my nothing response to your nothing comment.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Everything on the PC equates to a lot of nothing. Including my nothing response to your nothing comment.

All you've done is respond with anecdotes. Go through your last 20 posts, and I bet more than half are exactly that.

[Gelston]

All you've done is respond with anecdotes. Go through your last 20 posts, and I bet more than half are exactly that.

Okay?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Okay?

Glad we agree.

[Gelston]

Glad we agree.

Did you have some kind of point?

[Tgo01]

And the guy with a bachelor's will beat out the guy with an associates every time.

Are you agreeing with me or making fun of me? :/


What is your logic?

I can't answer this until I know the answer to the previous question.

[Tgo01]

Hmm. This brings me back to my comment I made about jobs being taken over by robots and AI. What are we supposed to do, invent new jobs?

Yes. Someone has to build and maintain those robots. Until we build robots that can build and maintain other robots. But then we need to build robots to build the maintenance robots.

[Gelston]

Are you agreeing with me or making fun of me? :/


Can't I do both?

[Tgo01]

Can't I do both?

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130312013032/random-ness/images/f/f0/Why_not_both.jpg

[Androidpk]

Yes. Someone has to build and maintain those robots. Until we build robots that can build and maintain other robots. But then we need to build robots to build the maintenance robots.

Even if you consider those kinds of jobs the loss is still far greater than the gains. Face it, many people will have no choice but to stay home and play virtual reality games all day.

[AnticorRifling]

And the guy with a bachelor's will beat out the guy with an associates every time. What is your logic?

Depends on the industry, from my personal experience I've seen experience > piece of paper.

[Parkbandit]

To add to that, none of the jobs I have looked at have ever really cared much for an Associate Degree. It was a Bachelors or nothing.

So, wouldn't this be just a gigantic waste of taxpayer money, if there is no need for an Associates Degree?

Is it worth the 30+ billion dollars a year?

[Taernath]

So, wouldn't this be just a gigantic waste of taxpayer money, if there is no need for an Associates Degree?

Is it worth the 30+ billion dollars a year?

There are a lot of jobs where an AAS is all you need, maybe less for an AA.

[Parkbandit]

There are a lot of jobs where an AAS is all you need, maybe less for an AA.

So, what you are saying is that you disagree with Gelston's view of community college degrees?

[Latrinsorm]

I'm curious, for those who are proponents of the Government paying for two years of CC;

Who do you think it will benefit?
Who will ultimately pay for it?
Why is it the responsibility of the Government to do this?In order: everyone, everyone, because this is one of the times where the private sector is proving too narrow sighted. This isn't a failing of intelligence or understanding, the definition of a private entity is that which pursues its own benefit.
The two areas with the most cost inflation in our economy, medicine and higher education, are the two areas where we spend other people's money. This is not a coincidence.Don't most people buy cars and houses with other people's money? Where do these areas rank? This is an actual question.
Hmm. This brings me back to my comment I made about jobs being taken over by robots and AI. What are we supposed to do, invent new jobs?We invented agricultural, industrial, and service, didn't we?

[Gelston]

So, wouldn't this be just a gigantic waste of taxpayer money, if there is no need for an Associates Degree?

Is it worth the 30+ billion dollars a year?

To bring up the education of the average American? Hell yes. Not only that, the students who do good in Community College have a stepping stone towards a bachelor's degree, along with possible scholarships and grants. Just because it is harder to turn into a job right off the table doesn't mean it isn't worth doing.

[Taernath]

So, what you are saying is that you disagree with Gelston's view of community college degrees?

My stance toward Gelston is a matter of public record.

[Parkbandit]

To bring up the education of the average American? Hell yes. Not only that, the students who do good in Community College have a stepping stone towards a bachelor's degree, along with possible scholarships and grants. Just because it is harder to turn into a job right off the table doesn't mean it isn't worth doing.

So.. even though you said that most jobs don't require a degree from a community college.. that a high school diploma is fine and even if they do have a AA or AAS degree, it'll be beaten by a BS degree.... you still believe this program is worth the 30+ billion dollars it will cost per year... because it will "bring up the education of the average American"?

[Gelston]

So.. even though you said that most jobs don't require a degree from a community college.. that a high school diploma is fine and even if they do have a AA or AAS degree, it'll be beaten by a BS degree.... you still believe this program is worth the 30+ billion dollars it will cost per year... because it will "bring up the education of the average American"?


To bring up the education of the average American? Hell yes. Not only that, the students who do good in Community College have a stepping stone towards a bachelor's degree, along with possible scholarships and grants. Just because it is harder to turn into a job right off the table doesn't mean it isn't worth doing.

I believe I answered your question in the post you were questioning.

[Gelston]

The idea is to make an associate's degree universal, like a High School diploma. This is something I strongly agree with.

[Parkbandit]

I believe I answered your question in the post you were questioning.

I'm just surprised that you believe this won't help people get more qualified jobs.. just more education.. and you believe 30+ billion a year is worth it.

:shrug:

[Gelston]

I'm just surprised that you believe this won't help people get more qualified jobs.. just more education.. and you believe 30+ billion a year is worth it.

:shrug:

It will help people get jobs, I just don't think the AA alone will do it. I puts them halfway to a Bachelor's though. I think if they made this program into a 13th and 14th grade type deal, we'd see more bachelor's, and on the flip side, more Master's.

Also, hey Latrin, why don't you be a good feller and pull up crime rates based on education levels?

[Fallen]

Where did the 30+ billion figure a year come from? The last I saw was 60 billion over 10 years.

[Parkbandit]

Where did the 30+ billion figure a year come from? The last I saw was 60 billion over 10 years.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2015/01/09/fact-sheet-white-house-unveils-america-s-college-promise-proposal-tuitio

9 million students at $3,800 per year. 34 billion.

No idea where the $60 billion over 10 years came from... probably doesn't include the amount the states have to come up with.

Or probably accounts for the sudden and magical drop in tuition rates when they rename this the AFFORDABLE American College Promise Proposal.

[Latrinsorm]

It will help people get jobs, I just don't think the AA alone will do it. I puts them halfway to a Bachelor's though. I think if they made this program into a 13th and 14th grade type deal, we'd see more bachelor's, and on the flip side, more Master's.

Also, hey Latrin, why don't you be a good feller and pull up crime rates based on education levels?I found this (http://eml.berkeley.edu/~moretti/lm46.pdf) report, which lists two reasons for causal murkiness: education is correlated with higher wages which is in turn correlated with lower criminal participation, and education obtained is not strongly correlated with attendance which IS correlated with lower criminal participation. When they adjust for everything, they find found probability of incarceration decreases gradually from 2 to 11 years of schooling (trend .015 to .011), decreases sharply at 12 (.006), and decreases gradually for additional years out to 18 (trend .003).

I don't think community college alone would have a dramatic effect on crime rates, adding an additional carrot to high school graduation might have a bigger effect.

[Atlanteax]

To bring up the education of the average American? Hell yes. Not only that, the students who do good in Community College have a stepping stone towards a bachelor's degree, along with possible scholarships and grants. Just because it is harder to turn into a job right off the table doesn't mean it isn't worth doing.

Why not improve the quality of education in junior high & high school ... versus stretching out the 'high school experience' another two years at the taxpayers' expense?

Perhaps Americans will finally wake up to the realization that throwing more federal $$$ at 'education' will not necessarily improve / fix it.

[Androidpk]

Why not improve the quality of education in junior high & high school ... versus stretching out the 'high school experience' another two years at the taxpayers' expense?

Perhaps Americans will finally wake up to the realization that throwing more federal $$$ at 'education' will not necessarily improve / fix it.

What improvements would you suggest?

[Whirlin]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2015/01/09/fact-sheet-white-house-unveils-america-s-college-promise-proposal-tuitio

9 million students at $3,800 per year. 34 billion.

No idea where the $60 billion over 10 years came from... probably doesn't include the amount the states have to come up with.

Or probably accounts for the sudden and magical drop in tuition rates when they rename this the AFFORDABLE American College Promise Proposal.

What was the salary difference between high school versus associates degree in that link a few pages back?

If the average salary increase for an individual with an associate's degree versus high school degree is 5k/yr to the student, if we assume a marginal tax rate of 10% (This can be argued, but we'll continue for highlighting purposes), that would be $500 a year in additional taxes. If we assume total burden is 3800/yr for 2 years, ~7500, that'd result in the program being self-sufficient in 15 years, with pure profit for the remaining 25 years pre-retirement.

[Warriorbird]

Why not improve the quality of education in junior high & high school ... versus stretching out the 'high school experience' another two years at the taxpayers' expense?

Perhaps Americans will finally wake up to the realization that throwing more federal $$$ at 'education' will not necessarily improve / fix it.

I'm totally excited to hear another business educated person's "solutions" to "improve" the quality of education. It makes me think of Bush/Obama education policy.

[Atlanteax]

What improvements would you suggest?

Posted them several times, but it primarily centers on reducing/eliminating federal aid for college tuition (resulting in lower tuition across the board and less debt to manage), and increasing peer-to-peer competition in grade school, where the academically bright students are placed in specialized high schools.

Around 8th grade or so, students take a battery of tests to determine what kind of high school they qualify to go to, as there are only limited space available. Students who do not 'qualify' for the prestigious ones, get a 2nd chance in 10th grade.
Those with rich parents hiring tutors would be slightly favored (job creation!), but those who are from poor/middle background, but actually love to learn, have strong chance to go.

Trying to teach everyone, 'everything', as if all students were mentally equal, only holds back those with potential. Prestigious schools cultivate talent for engineering, law, biology/chemistry, philosophy, etc. Standardized high school emphasizes basic science, algebra, general history, etc (essentially status quo), finance (obviously self-budgeting needs to be taught sooner), to ensure that graduates are job-ready after high-school.

Convert the education system into a meritocracy. 'Real world' functions as one to a degree, so this way, youth is mentally/emotionally prepared (vs still not being prepared after graduating college after spending 4 more years partying).

[AnticorRifling]

Step one make the parents accountable for raising the student and let the schools teach the student.

[Warriorbird]

Step one make the parents accountable for raising the student and let the schools teach the student.

Gosh. It's like you're married to a teacher or something.


Posted them several times, but it primarily centers on reducing/eliminating federal aid for college tuition (resulting in lower tuition across the board and less debt to manage), and increasing peer-to-peer competition in grade school, where the academically bright students are placed in specialized high schools.

Around 8th grade or so, students take a battery of tests to determine what kind of high school they qualify to go to, as there are only limited space available. Students who do not 'qualify' for the prestigious ones, get a 2nd chance in 10th grade.
Those with rich parents hiring tutors would be slightly favored (job creation!), but those who are from poor/middle background, but actually love to learn, have strong chance to go.

Trying to teach everyone, 'everything', as if all students were mentally equal, only holds back those with potential. Prestigious schools cultivate talent for engineering, law, biology/chemistry, philosophy, etc. Standardized high school emphasizes basic science, algebra, general history, etc (essentially status quo), finance (obviously self-budgeting needs to be taught sooner), to ensure that graduates are job-ready after high-school.

Convert the education system into a meritocracy. 'Real world' functions as one to a degree, so this way, youth is mentally/emotionally prepared (vs still not being prepared after graduating college after spending 4 more years partying).

Apart from the laughably awful reduction in college tuition aid (which does nothing to really address costs for K-12 either) this certainly sounds tempting at first look. You just produce some of the same permanent underclass problems you get in Europe. It's also unpassable, even from your own party.

[Whirlin]

Posted them several times, but it primarily centers on reducing/eliminating federal aid for college tuition (resulting in lower tuition across the board and less debt to manage), and increasing peer-to-peer competition in grade school, where the academically bright students are placed in specialized high schools.

Around 8th grade or so, students take a battery of tests to determine what kind of high school they qualify to go to, as there are only limited space available. Students who do not 'qualify' for the prestigious ones, get a 2nd chance in 10th grade.
Those with rich parents hiring tutors would be slightly favored (job creation!), but those who are from poor/middle background, but actually love to learn, have strong chance to go.

Trying to teach everyone, 'everything', as if all students were mentally equal, only holds back those with potential. Prestigious schools cultivate talent for engineering, law, biology/chemistry, philosophy, etc. Standardized high school emphasizes basic science, algebra, general history, etc (essentially status quo), finance (obviously self-budgeting needs to be taught sooner), to ensure that graduates are job-ready after high-school.

Convert the education system into a meritocracy. 'Real world' functions as one to a degree, so this way, youth is mentally/emotionally prepared (vs still not being prepared after graduating college after spending 4 more years partying).

While the concepts appear good on paper, your plan negates a key factor... The pre-frontal cortex of the human brain does not fully develop intil you're into your 20s. The pre-frontal cortex is the causation to benefits realization center of the brain. It's why teenagers appear to be irrational, and lack the realization of the causal nature of some of their actions. Students have no clue what's going on in their lives, and lack the ability to fully understand the implications of their actions at such a young age.

Furthermore, the approach that your referencing seems to also rely on standardized testing across the board, which has already realized a correlation between scores and parental socioeconomic standing.

I understand that your education plan seems to rival that of Germany, and potentially more of the EU (I'm only familiar with the German education structure). However, I do not think that such a heirarchal school network that works for such a small geographical area can be applied similarly to a nation the size of the US.

[Jeril]

Posted them several times, but it primarily centers on reducing/eliminating federal aid for college tuition (resulting in lower tuition across the board and less debt to manage), and increasing peer-to-peer competition in grade school, where the academically bright students are placed in specialized high schools.

Around 8th grade or so, students take a battery of tests to determine what kind of high school they qualify to go to, as there are only limited space available. Students who do not 'qualify' for the prestigious ones, get a 2nd chance in 10th grade.
Those with rich parents hiring tutors would be slightly favored (job creation!), but those who are from poor/middle background, but actually love to learn, have strong chance to go.

Trying to teach everyone, 'everything', as if all students were mentally equal, only holds back those with potential. Prestigious schools cultivate talent for engineering, law, biology/chemistry, philosophy, etc. Standardized high school emphasizes basic science, algebra, general history, etc (essentially status quo), finance (obviously self-budgeting needs to be taught sooner), to ensure that graduates are job-ready after high-school.

Convert the education system into a meritocracy. 'Real world' functions as one to a degree, so this way, youth is mentally/emotionally prepared (vs still not being prepared after graduating college after spending 4 more years partying).

How wouldn't making these changes cost money? And in many places they need more schools and more teachers, which would cost money.

[Atlanteax]

Step one make the parents accountable for raising the student and let the schools teach the student.

Too bad not passable by either political party.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I think everyone should take a test at 20, and those who perform poorly are put in the hood. The hood has a huge fence around it guarded 24x7 and lets no one out. Everyone else works for a living, and if they become deadbeats, we put them in the hood. The only way out of the hood is every 10 years you may retest, if you pass, you get out.

Prior to 20, everyone is responsible for themselves. Get an education, or don't. No exceptions to the year 20 test, results implemented immediately. The test is created by a 50/50 split of hood denizens and non-hood denizens of 50 randomly selected people from each area once a month who must create a 1000 question test of the most important things to know about the world. Non-participation in the creation of the test is not allowed. Non-participants are hung until dead.

After the initial hood/non-hood test, everyone retests every 10 years.

The hood has everything liberals want. Everyone must provide for everyone else, everyone gets a vote in the hood government, gets free healthcare (assuming there are healthcare providers), free food, doesn't have to work if they don't want too, etc. Nothing from outside the hood is allowed in or out except for things bought/sold in a trade area that opens everyday for 1 hour and is 100% cash based. No cash, no goods, either direction. No police or army obviously, since everyone gets everything for free provided by everyone else. If you don't work, that doesn't matter.

Non-hood has everything conservatives want. Everyone provides for themselves, gets a vote, pays for healthcare or dies, pays for food or starves, etc. Police enforce laws, paid for by the government which taxes goods and services. Laws created by annual votes, every law voted on by citizens of non-hoodville. You may of course depend on the generosity of others for a living, but it is not guaranteed as in hoodville.

How's that for a fantasy? :)

[Atlanteax]

I think everyone should take a test at 20, and those who perform poorly are put in the hood. The hood has a huge fence around it guarded 24x7 and lets no one out. Everyone else works for a living, and if they become deadbeats, we put them in the hood. The only way out of the hood is every 10 years you may retest, if you pass, you get out.

Prior to 20, everyone is responsible for themselves. Get an education, or don't. No exceptions to the year 20 test, results implemented immediately. The test is created by a 50/50 split of hood denizens and non-hood denizens of 50 randomly selected people from each area once a month who must create a 1000 question test of the most important things to know about the world. Non-participation in the creation of the test is not allowed. Non-participants are hung until dead.

After the initial hood/non-hood test, everyone retests every 10 years.

The hood has everything liberals want. Everyone must provide for everyone else, everyone gets a vote in the hood government, gets free healthcare (assuming there are healthcare providers), free food, doesn't have to work if they don't want too, etc. Nothing from outside the hood is allowed in or out except for things bought/sold in a trade area that opens everyday for 1 hour and is 100% cash based. No cash, no goods, either direction. No police or army obviously, since everyone gets everything for free provided by everyone else. If you don't work, that doesn't matter.

Non-hood has everything conservatives want. Everyone provides for themselves, gets a vote, pays for healthcare or dies, pays for food or starves, etc. Police enforce laws, paid for by the government which taxes goods and services. Laws created by annual votes, every law voted on by citizens of non-hoodville. You may of course depend on the generosity of others for a living, but it is not guaranteed as in hoodville.

How's that for a fantasy? :)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-o9MGphc_jgw/UVSo11dql8I/AAAAAAAALIo/IWWSBoxTDFg/s1600/thumbs-up.gif

[waywardgs]

It definitely reflects a profound lack of understanding of a fair portion of the country.

And of the mechanations of the world at large. He'll get his thumbs up gifs from his blind buddies though, so good for him.

[Back]

Anything that educates people while keeping them out of the claws of banks is a good thing.

[Kembal]

Posted them several times, but it primarily centers on reducing/eliminating federal aid for college tuition (resulting in lower tuition across the board and less debt to manage), and increasing peer-to-peer competition in grade school, where the academically bright students are placed in specialized high schools.

Around 8th grade or so, students take a battery of tests to determine what kind of high school they qualify to go to, as there are only limited space available. Students who do not 'qualify' for the prestigious ones, get a 2nd chance in 10th grade.
Those with rich parents hiring tutors would be slightly favored (job creation!), but those who are from poor/middle background, but actually love to learn, have strong chance to go.

Trying to teach everyone, 'everything', as if all students were mentally equal, only holds back those with potential. Prestigious schools cultivate talent for engineering, law, biology/chemistry, philosophy, etc. Standardized high school emphasizes basic science, algebra, general history, etc (essentially status quo), finance (obviously self-budgeting needs to be taught sooner), to ensure that graduates are job-ready after high-school.

Convert the education system into a meritocracy. 'Real world' functions as one to a degree, so this way, youth is mentally/emotionally prepared (vs still not being prepared after graduating college after spending 4 more years partying).

That appears to be an impressive way to kill social mobility. Beyond that, it would not achieve the objectives you seek.

[Atlanteax]

That appears to be an impressive way to kill social mobility. Beyond that, it would not achieve the objectives you seek.

Actually would be better mobility for the talented of the current disadvantaged portions of the population.

[~Rocktar~]

I think everyone should take a test at 20, and those who perform poorly are put in the hood. The hood has a huge fence around it guarded 24x7 and lets no one out. Everyone else works for a living, and if they become deadbeats, we put them in the hood. The only way out of the hood is every 10 years you may retest, if you pass, you get out.

Prior to 20, everyone is responsible for themselves. Get an education, or don't. No exceptions to the year 20 test, results implemented immediately. The test is created by a 50/50 split of hood denizens and non-hood denizens of 50 randomly selected people from each area once a month who must create a 1000 question test of the most important things to know about the world. Non-participation in the creation of the test is not allowed. Non-participants are hung until dead.

After the initial hood/non-hood test, everyone retests every 10 years.

The hood has everything liberals want. Everyone must provide for everyone else, everyone gets a vote in the hood government, gets free healthcare (assuming there are healthcare providers), free food, doesn't have to work if they don't want too, etc. Nothing from outside the hood is allowed in or out except for things bought/sold in a trade area that opens everyday for 1 hour and is 100% cash based. No cash, no goods, either direction. No police or army obviously, since everyone gets everything for free provided by everyone else. If you don't work, that doesn't matter.

Non-hood has everything conservatives want. Everyone provides for themselves, gets a vote, pays for healthcare or dies, pays for food or starves, etc. Police enforce laws, paid for by the government which taxes goods and services. Laws created by annual votes, every law voted on by citizens of non-hoodville. You may of course depend on the generosity of others for a living, but it is not guaranteed as in hoodville.

How's that for a fantasy? :)

And then something tragic happens, Air Force One goes down in the Hood and the only man tough enough to get him out, an ex-special forces soldier, is a prisoner and he gets offered his freedom in exchange for rescuing the President.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

And then something tragic happens, Air Force One goes down in the Hood and the only man tough enough to get him out, an ex-special forces soldier, is a prisoner and he gets offered his freedom in exchange for rescuing the President.

Captain J.T. Robbins, Colonel James Braddock, Snake Plissken, Frank Leone, Colonel William McNamara and David Balfour are just a few who could do it.

[Kembal]

Actually would be better mobility for the talented of the current disadvantaged portions of the population.

No, it wouldn't. Said prestigious high schools would not presumably be everywhere, meaning that students would need transportation. (And if a certain locality didn't have a prestigious high school nearby, would students from there need to do some type of boarding arrangement?) Who pays and arranges for said transportation and/or boarding? If the parents, then those talented disadvantaged students may not able to go to the prestigious high school b/c their parents aren't able to pay for it or provide rides themselves. If it's the system, how is that funding guaranteed so that future budget cuts don't attempt to shift it back to the parents?

[Atlanteax]

No, it wouldn't. Said prestigious high schools would not presumably be everywhere, meaning that students would need transportation. (And if a certain locality didn't have a prestigious high school nearby, would students from there need to do some type of boarding arrangement?) Who pays and arranges for said transportation and/or boarding? If the parents, then those talented disadvantaged students may not able to go to the prestigious high school b/c their parents aren't able to pay for it or provide rides themselves. If it's the system, how is that funding guaranteed so that future budget cuts don't attempt to shift it back to the parents?

The state / federal government does ... since it (1) cultivates talented future adult citizens; (2) incentives other youth to do better academically & maturity.

The students will live on campus (akin to current college environment to emphasize their cultivation) but with greater monitoring (Latrin would be pleased) due to being adolescents.

[Latrinsorm]

Posted them several times, but it primarily centers on reducing/eliminating federal aid for college tuition (resulting in lower tuition across the board and less debt to manage), and increasing peer-to-peer competition in grade school, where the academically bright students are placed in specialized high schools.

Around 8th grade or so, students take a battery of tests to determine what kind of high school they qualify to go to, as there are only limited space available. Students who do not 'qualify' for the prestigious ones, get a 2nd chance in 10th grade.
Those with rich parents hiring tutors would be slightly favored (job creation!), but those who are from poor/middle background, but actually love to learn, have strong chance to go.No one has ever managed to create a background-neutral test, or even one that's just "slightly" biased. This seems like a critical flaw.
Trying to teach everyone, 'everything', as if all students were mentally equal, only holds back those with potential. Prestigious schools cultivate talent for engineering, law, biology/chemistry, philosophy, etc. Standardized high school emphasizes basic science, algebra, general history, etc (essentially status quo), finance (obviously self-budgeting needs to be taught sooner), to ensure that graduates are job-ready after high-school.

Convert the education system into a meritocracy. 'Real world' functions as one to a degree, so this way, youth is mentally/emotionally prepared (vs still not being prepared after graduating college after spending 4 more years partying).You say meritocracy, okay. Which merit do you have in mind? There were people who worked harder than me in grades below high school, but I got better marks because of my innate ability. Which of us demonstrated more merit?

Also, I would argue that the biggest culture shock for college graduates is that the real world functions LESS as a meritocracy than academia does. No paper is published on the basis of "it's not what you know, it's who you know", for instance. Heck, there aren't even any student unions (you know what I mean), I would think that would be right up your alley.

[Atlanteax]

No one has ever managed to create a background-neutral test, or even one that's just "slightly" biased. This seems like a critical flaw.You say meritocracy, okay. Which merit do you have in mind? There were people who worked harder than me in grades below high school, but I got better marks because of my innate ability. Which of us demonstrated more merit?

Also, I would argue that the biggest culture shock for college graduates is that the real world functions LESS as a meritocracy than academia does. No paper is published on the basis of "it's not what you know, it's who you know", for instance. Heck, there aren't even any student unions (you know what I mean), I would think that would be right up your alley.

You would, tho your talent is questionable.

Other way around with real world. If you do not work hard, you get fired. You also have to actually take personal self-responsibility for a multitude of things,

[Thondalar]

Other way around with real world. If you do not work hard, you get fired.

Unless you're a Government worker or Union worker. It's only in the non-unionized private sector that people actually have to work hard.

[Kembal]

The state / federal government does ... since it (1) cultivates talented future adult citizens; (2) incentives other youth to do better academically & maturity.

The students will live on campus (akin to current college environment to emphasize their cultivation) but with greater monitoring (Latrin would be pleased) due to being adolescents.

Hahahahah. This gets wiped out in budget cuts over time. People will be unhappy about paying for someone's else room and board. (I can take care of my own kid! Why should I take care of someone else's?)

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Hahahahah. This gets wiped out in budget cuts over time. People will be unhappy about paying for someone's else room and board. (I can take care of my own kid! Why should I take care of someone else's?)

That's why exile island I described above is more viable! Or Hunger Games. We should Hunger Games everything.

[Latrinsorm]

You would, tho your talent is questionable.You sweet talker!
Other way around with real world. If you do not work hard, you get fired. You also have to actually take personal self-responsibility for a multitude of things,
It's only in the non-unionized private sector that people actually have to work hard.And you say I've got rose colored glasses. (To my knowledge you haven't said it, but I know you've been thinking it.)