ASSISTS about CvC

Just some light reading, not even really a complaint, just an example of the intricate web that is CvC conflict.

Normally I never use this command in this manner, but for some odd reason (I was drinking), I figured it wouldn't hurt to cover my ass.

The situation is this: I'm resting somewhere, and a fellow slips out of hiding and steals from me. He had some odd name, and I honestly don't even remember what it was, but I have it highlighted for the future. I squinted at him, and he does an ACT command to the effect of lightening my pockets. I asked him if he was sure that was wise, and he told me he knew it wasn't, and hid, and snuck away. I put a little bit of effort into finding him, but after realizing he was just going to stay hidden, I figured I'd just wait until he came out of hiding. He logs off about 20 minutes later, so I decide I'll throw an ASSIST in just to make sure it's clear why I'll be killing this person the next time I see them. I honestly know better than to do this, but I must have been in an odd mood. Let's have a look at the film....
_________________________________

*** Host Kedrik is here to answer your assist. ***

>
Kedrik smiles.
>steal kedr
Steal from them? That's probably not a good idea.
>bow kedr
You bow to Kedrik.

Kedrik asks, "How can we help you this evening, Captain Justice?"

You say, "I dunno really, I just wanted to let ya know why I'm going to kill someone."
You rub your chin thoughtfully.

Kedrik nods.
>
Kedrik says, "Well, I'm sure you know, unconsented PvP is against policy."

You say, "Oh obviously, but he was stealing from me."
>
Kedrik says, "So... If you do decide that violence is the solution, make sure you use the CHALLENGE verb."

You say, "175 silvers to be exact."
>
Kedrik says, "That way, it's consensual."

You say, "I don't have to, he stole from me."
>

Kedrik says, "Actually..."
>
Kedrik says, "It would be better if you did."
>
Kedrik smiles.

You say, "It won't work days later."

You say, "It's usually an auto-accept if you catch someone stealing."

You ask, "But what can I do if someone logs out?"
>
Kedrik says, "there's a lot of flexibility in the command."
>
You say, "Believe me, I've used it."

You grin.
>
Kedrik says, "If he logs out to avoid conflict, that's not kosher."

You say, "It won't work tomorrow for a theft caught today."
>
You say, "He didn't."

You say, "He just hid for 20 minutes, and eventually logged."

Kedrik says, "There are several options. You can also use MYCHAR to be specific as well, and you can let him know why you're challenging him as well."

You say, "I don't blame someone for logging off for whatever reason, but that doesn't mean that I won't kill the person."

You say, "Well, there's no point in challenging him."
>
Kedrik says, "Well, apparently, you don't want to listen to my advice."

You chuckle.
>
Kedrik says, "smile"

You say, "Well."
>
Kedrik says, "I'm telling you the right way to handle things."
>
Kedrik smiles.

You say, "I didn't really want advice, but I'm not trying to be argumentative."
>
Kedrik says, "Whether or not you do it is ultimately up to you."

You say, "He was stealing from me, so obviously I'll kill him next time I see him."

You say, "He knows he was caught."
>
Kedrik says, "And, if you do it the wrong way, you can get in trouble."
>
Kedrik smiles.

You ask, "What is the wrong way?"
>
Kedrik says, "Thus, the challenge verb, even though it seems you don't want to use it."

You say, "There is no need to challenge for a conflict."
>
Kedrik asks, "Is there anything else I can help you with tonight?"
>
You say, "Well, I'd just like some clarification."
>
Kedrik says, "There are options to challenge without a thievery qualifier."
>
Kedrik says, "You can use that."

You ask, "Yes, what if he declines?"
>
Kedrik says, "And, also, RP the "punishment" via the challenge for thievery."

You ask, "He just gets to keep my silvers with no consequences?"
>

Kedrik says, "If he declines, and continues to steal from you, you can challenge again, obviously."

You chuckle.

You ask, "What about the time I already caught him?"
>
Kedrik says, "And, if he continues to do it, without accepting subsequent challenge, you can use the WARN command, and then ignore him completely."

You chuckle.

>
You say, "That is silly, Kedrik."
>

You say, "He stole from me, he'll face the IC consequences."

Kedrik says, "As I said, I'm telling you the officially correct ways to handle the situation."
>
Kedrik smiles.

You ask, "I don't see the problem?"
>
Kedrik smiles.
>
The silvery luminescence fades from around you.

>
You say, "The only reason I assisted was because when I kill him, it may be days later."
>
Kedrik says, "I'm sorry you disagree with my advice."

You say, "And I just wanted the reason to be clear."
>
Kedrik asks, "Is there anything else I can help you with?"

>
You exclaim, "I don't know if you helped me with the first problem!"

You chuckle.
>
Kedrik says, "I will mnake a note."
>
You say, "I don't want to bother ya Kendrik."

You say, "Not trying to be a smart aleck"

You say, "It's just he stole from me, told me he did it while knowing it was a bad idea, and then hid from me "

Kedrik says, "I'm trying to tell you the right way to handle this sort of situation. Obviously, whether or not you do it is up to you."
>

Kedrik says, "And logged off. Unfortunately, that's a limitation of the medium in which we all interqact."
>
You say, "Aye, I don't think he logged to avoid me, it is late."
>
Kedrik says, "Challenge, as you've stated, doesn't allow for logging off."
>
Kedrik says, "However..."
>
Kedrik says, "Challenge is STILL the proper way to go, to guarantee that it is consensual conflict."
>
Kedrik says, "You disagree."
>
Kedrik says, "Not much I can do."
>
You ask, "Did he not consent when he stole from me?"
>
Kedrik smiles.

You say, "That's the part I don't understand."

You say, "He stole from me, that is consent as I understand it."
>
Kedrik says, "It's a limitation of the system."
>
Kedrik says, "Arguing it won't make it go away."

You ask, "Arguing what?"

You say, "I'm just not clear."
>
Kedrik says, "I'm telling you the correct way to handle things, to cause yourself the minimum of trouble."
>
Kedrik says, "Promise."
>
You ask, "I understand, but isn't stealing consent to combat?"
>
Kedrik says, "Generally, yes."
>
You exclaim, "I would like to just kill someone that steals from me without needing a lawyer!"

You flash a wide grin.
>
Kedrik says, "Thus the CHALLENGE command."

You say, "Well, the challenge verb is easily avoided."

Kedrik says, "When the combat occurs days later, there's no guarantee that it's for the original reasons."
>
Kedrik says, "And, if he continues to avoid the challenge, and steal from you, there's the warn command."

You say, "I'm not even concerned that the fellow is going to report."

Kedrik says, "I'm repeating myself."
>
Kedrik smiles.

You say, "I don't use the Warn command."

You rub your chin thoughtfully.

You say, "I don't like it much."
>
Kedrik says, "That's your option."
>
You say, "Fair enough, I'm just going to go back to my policy of never Assisting."
>
You say, "Nothing against you, of course."
>
Kedrik says, "I would highly suggest attempting to use the challenge verb, when you decide killing this fellow is appropriate."
>
Kedrik says, "And, I will do what you asked, originally, which is make a note of your reasons."

You say, "Aye, I don't want to chase him again though."
>
Kedrik says, "that was never in doubt."
>
Kedrik says, "BUT..."

You nod to Kedrik.
>
Kedrik says, "MY point, in doing my job, is informing you of the ways to handle the situation so that you cause yourself the minimum of fuss as far as guaranteeing that the conflict is consensual."

You grin.
>
Kedrik says, "Yes, the system has flaws."

You say, "Fair enough."

Kedrik says, "But, it keeps you from getting in trouble."

You say, "I just don't like having to worry about killing someone that steals from me."

You exclaim, "Especially when the person brags about it!"

Kedrik says, "You wouldn't, if you had challenged him tonight."

Kedrik says, "But, since he logged out, we stumble into one of the system's limitations."

You say, "Aye, well, he was sure to get out of sight immediately."

You exclaim, "You can't challenge a person unless ya find 'em!"
>
Kedrik says, "So, I'm basically trying to tell you how to go about covering your own butt."
>
You say, "And he left the park seconds after I asked him if he thought it was a good idea to be stealing from me."

You nod.
>
Kedrik says, "Whether or not you do it..."
>
Kedrik shrugs.
>
Kedrik says, "Up to you."

Here I ask if I'd get in trouble for killing the person without using Challenge, but I do it in such a roundabout way, it's best to just clarify.

>
Kedrik asks, "Would you get in trouble, if YOU did it?"
>
>
Kedrik says, "Honestly, probably not."
>
Kedrik says, "But..."

You say, "I didn't think so, I wouldn't even normally assist."

Kedrik says, "It never hurts to cover your own butt, as much as possible."

You nod.

Kedrik says, "That's why we implemented the challenge command, in fact, is for exactly this sort of situation."
>

You say, "I do use it when appropriate, but there are times it is more trouble than it's worth."

You say, "For theft they have to accept the challenge."

You say, "There is no choice to accept it."
>
Kedrik nods.
>
Kedrik says, "I understand what you're saying, really."
>
Kedrik says, "BUT..."
>
Kedrik says, "That's a limitation of the system, when someone logs out."

You nod.
>
Kedrik asks, "If you would rather not use the challenge verb, in this situation, make sure you at least tell the person why, okay?"

You nod.
>
Kedrik says, "They'll probably know."
>
Kedrik says, "BUT..."
>
You ask, "After he's dead, right?"
>
Kedrik says, "CYOB."
>
You grin.

You chuckle.

Kedrik says, "Before would be better."

You say, "Aye, He didn't strike me as the type to make a fuss about it."
>
Kedrik says, "I wouldn't imagine so either. BUT, you never know."
>
Kedrik shrugs.
>
You nod.
>
Kedrik says, "I'm just trying to tell you how to best cover and protect yourself."
>
>
You nod.
>
Kedrik smiles.
>
Kedrik asks, "anything else I can help you with tonight?"

You say, "I understand, I just don't want to worry about being warned or something if my actions are justified."
>
Kedrik says, "Sometimes, especially with the warn verb, we can't control that."
>
You say, "I'm probably much older than the thief, so it might look like I'm bullying someone younger than me when I'm only teaching someone to stay out of my pockets."
>
Kedrik says, "Some folks like to goad folks, and then WARN them."
>
Kedrik says, "Exactly."

You say, "Aye, that's why I stay away from the Warn vern"

You say, "verb."
>

Kedrik says, "When used legitimately, it works very well."

You say, "I can understand there's a time and place for it, but I think it's used much more often."

You chuckle.
>
Kedrik says, "You're probably right."
>
Kedrik smiles.

You say, "Okay, appreciate yer time."

Kedrik nods.
>
Kedrik says, "No problem at all."

You say, "That is a good note to end on."

You try hard not to grin.
>
Kedrik says, "Sory if I seemed a little die hard there, but, like I said, just trying to tell you the best way to protect yourself."
>
Kedrik winks.

You say, "I understand, thanks for taking the time to make it clear."
>
Kedrik nods.
>
You say, "Not promising I'm going to challenge or anything..."
>
You grin.
>
Kedrik chuckles.
>
Kedrik says, "I gathered."

You say, "But I understand what you're saying."
>
Kedrik says, "Good."
>
Kedrik exclaims, "Mission accoplished!"
>
Kedrik raises his fist defiantly.

>
You grin.
>
You turn towards Kedrik and render a sharp hand salute.
Kedrik says, "you have a good night."

Kedrik waves.

You say, "And you."
>
Kedrik vanishes in a puff of smoke!

------------------------------------------------

At first I was extremely frustrated, because to me it seemed like a pretty cut and dry situation. Then I remember that a GM or Host is basically never going to give you carte blanche to kill another player, no matter what the reason for the killing might be.

Kedrik is also probably working from a different perspective, and is used to hearing complaints that aren't exactly truthful. I guess he has to be a bit guarded about what kind of advice to give when it comes to any CvC conflict, because he really has only my side of the story to go on.

I would recommend not assisting about these sorts of things.

[Adhara]

GameHosts will just repeat policy like a tape recorder over and over again no matter how many ways you formulate your questions. They are clerks basically with no power whatsoever. They take notes and recite policy. That is what they are instructed to do. Their purpose is to get rid of assists so the GMs have as little referrals as possible.

Personally I find dealing with them very frustrating and utterly useless.

[Terrorize]

GH's are just a little bit smarter in they actually have good advice when it comes to the game. GMs on the other hand are idiots. Well most of them that is. Worst one I met was one named Mahegh. Sorry but he seems like a dirty old man on crack with no ears.

But anyways, stop wasting a GH's time just to argue with them. Some of us actually do have real problems and need them more over some stupid killing for a measly 150 coins. Thank you.

[Betheny]

Generally if I have an important policy question, I will simply assist and ask for a referral. It's my understanding that gamehosts simply state policy, whereas gamemasters interpret it.

[Terrorize]

Originally posted by Maimara
Generally if I have an important policy question, I will simply assist and ask for a referral. It's my understanding that gamehosts simply state policy, whereas gamemasters interpret it.

Out of 5 GMs I talked to only 1 was willing to interpret. The other ones skirted around it telling me to read it when I wanted interpreting. Most Gamehosts I talked to were more helpful. If only the Game hosts were the GMs, then perhaps they would have Customer Service.

[Drew2]

Khaladon is usually the coolest about everything.

And that pisses me off that people are allowed to just WARN if someone is stealing from them (ie. Garr). WTF is that.. if someone robs your house in reall ife you're not going to go up to them and tell them you don't want any further interaction with them whatsoever. You'd get shot in the face. Policy blows.

[Artha]

You'd kill someone for 175 coins? That's like me stealing $1.75 from you, and you shooting me for it.

[Betheny]

Oh, every GM gets to put their own spin on policy. That's one of the things that sucks about the way the game is run. One GM will say one thing, and then if you do something, another will say another; and it's not like you can cover your ass by saying "Well I asked so and so..."

I just avoid policy violations and questionable activities as much as I can. Saves me a lot of trouble. If someone steals from me and is a jackass about it, they'll get their butt kicked, though I do tend to avoid the killing of people for the most part -- too expensive. It's funner to let them stand there and fumble aimlessly around.

Originally posted by Artha
You'd kill someone for 175 coins? That's like me stealing $1.75 from you, and you shooting me for it.

If someone stole $1.75 from me in real life, I would just cut their hand off, so please don't try to imply that I'm some kind of lunatic.

Also, he could have easily taken more than 175 coins, but he was caught on the first pull. It's not about the silvers, it's about the thief's audacity in trying to take what is mine. It's silly to think that you'll take my possessions with no consequences.

[Tendarian]

You would cut their hand off!? In real life you would grab a saw or axe or something and cut their hand off,saw threw their bone and take it?

[CrystalTears]

Heh, I just don't see how $1.75 equals removing someone's hand. Isn't there a crime for that? Excessive force, assault and battery or something along those lines?

[Edited on 9/5/2003 by CrystalTears]

[Scott]

I don't agree with the real life aspect of cutting someone's hand off for $1.75, but if I catch someone stealing from me in Gemstone I kill them. A thief is going to keep stealing from you until you are cleaned out. If I catch you trying to steal what's mine, your damn right I'd kill you. Of coarse that's how I play Sintik, I pretty much kill anyone that annoy's me or slaps me or something......

[Artha]

As a thief, I only steal from people who decide to practice tricks in TC.

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Heh, I just don't see how $1.75 equals removing someone's hand. Isn't there a crime for that? Excessive force, assault and battery or something along those lines?

[Edited on 9/5/2003 by CrystalTears]

Nope, it's only a crime if it's less than $1.50. If it's as much as $1.75 it's perfectly legal to do some hand chopping....

I was being sarcastic about the hand chopping in real life, because it's silly to compare the two. I said something like "I'd only cut a hand off in real life, so don't imply I'm some kind of lunatic." I think the sarcasm is pretty clear.

I would really only cut someone's finger off for $1.75, not the whole hand. That was going overboard.

[Tendarian]

Lol i was hoping it was in jest. I was on my way out the door when i read that and was like WHAT!?! I probably should have realized it :)

[Straight-up]

I don't know that I would kill him. I would most definitely take hand. The host was being silly and he was wrong. You are NOT required to use the challenge verb for CvC...otherwise you would see lots of people locked out. Challenge is a nice concept that got screwed by the policy makers rather than what it probably could have been.

I have killed many many people in GS and never have I gotten a warning for it, not even a SEND. I make sure I am right and once I feel I am on moral high ground...off with their friggin head.

Straight

[Parkbandit]

Handle the situation in character and stop wasting the GH's time. Keep it in character.

The guy that stole from you sounds like someone who is TRYING to get a roleplay with you going... thus the act verb he was using to lighten your load or whatever he was doing.

It's the idiots that don't know how to roleplay that you have to worry about using the challenge verb with.

[Parkbandit]

The challenge verb is there for your protection.. and it has some nice in character messaging.

Whenever you draw your sword and strike another character.. there is always the possibility of getting into trouble with the GMs. The challenge verb will keep you out of that potential hot water.