Alright you whiners

[Kithus]

The current APM is making progress in changing the environment in the game. Whether it's the best APM ever, or if the changes are good, is subjective and likely divided by a line very close to the one already in this thread.

If his changes reduce a small player base even more, as much as you may agree with them, was it really for the best?

He could light the Gemstone servers on fire and still be doing better than Sirina was.

[Haldrik]

Yes, the best APM Gemstone has ever had is going to ruin the game... It's so clear now... Can you get a lil dumber?

All this bullshit he is doing is detracting from the real issue. It's called development. More hunting areas, more content, more professional development, more dynamic gameplay.

Instead of wasting all his time on this witch hunt, if he just brought more players in then I'm sure the interaction would increase 10x more then by "Scaring away people who script."

[subzero]

Also since odds are you don't know or play with any of my characters on a consistent basis

I haven't played Prime in quite some time. I don't know your characters, nor do I care to. The "play my way or you're bad for my game" mentality that people like yourself have is too much; I can't take it.


The only point I really wanted to make is that in general its a bad idea to be non-responsive to other players.

It's a bad idea to try to kick a cobra. Not responding to people in an online game... eh... what, a script check?


Further, this is not just bad for the player being ignored, it's bad for the game overall.

In your opinion. Contrary to what many of you seem to think, it's not your game. Gemstone does not revolve around you nor have you been appointed to any position to police or otherwise manage the game. If people don't respond to you, suck it up. I'm sure it will be very difficult to get over the digital snubbing, but you'll manage (I think).

[Kithus]

Wyrom has never been dev. The other GMs on your witch hunt are not dev. Dev GMs typically do not script check at all, excepting CE systems GMs who are still not dev and cannot do the things you're asking for. Those people who are doing the stuff you want are pale, shiveled trolls who hide from the light like Mestys, Estild and Keios. They aren't script checking you because they don't have the people skills to be allowed near customers. ;)

[Hightower]

Wyorm is going to kill the game. If he wants an "RP" game, then he needs to change the mechanics of the game.

More people play for mechanics then RP. Or, for "mechanics with a side of RP." Not, "RP ONLY or you will get AFK script checked." lol. Being locked out gives me so much extra clarity.


That may be true, but I'm not sure why you believe that anyone who plays for "mechanics with a side of RP" must necessarily be targeted by Wyrom's policies. He doesn't seem to have any issue with people using scripts. He seems very intent on targeting full-automation, in particular those who are AFK/inattentive and/or utilize full automation in combination with multiple accounts. I may be out of touch, but I think those players as a group cause more problems than they're worth, for the most part. Again, perhaps not on an individual basis, but to continue to turn a blind eye to it would set a precedent that would eventually be terrible for the game if it hasn't reached that point already.

You may not see it that way, but the fact that this is such a divisive issue is evidence that plenty of folks don't agree on this. I would venture a guess that the subset of players Wyrom is targeting are louder than they are representative in their protests. I would describe myself as a "mechanics/RP" hybrid. I hunt. I use lots of scripts. I roleplay and interact. And I'm not being targeted by Wyrom's policies. Maybe I'm just lucky or it's all based on GM/player favoritism? I didn't realize I was that popular! I really can't say what other players are experiencing, I'm just going on my experience.

~Taverkin

[Soulance]

From the officials:

Okay, let me clear that up.

Are players part of the game environment? Yes.

Are you required to be responsive to the game environment? Yes.

Do you have to respond to another player after they interact with you? No.

So what gives? Well, responsive don't mean reactive to every bit of stimuli in the game. But let me paint you a scenario.

Edward is out hunting and runs by Tellah. Tellah shouts at Edward, "You spoony bard!" But Edward just runs by. Tellah reports that Edward may be AFK scripting.

Edward doesn't have to respond to Tellah, but he increases his chances to have a GameMaster investigate his behaviors by not responding to Tellah.

If you want to play a character that is hard to get along with, isn't reactive to the environment, and generally doesn't like other players, you're probably going to have a hard time in GemStone IV. Because it's a multi-user game. Not a co-op. Not quite an MMO. But definitely multiple players in a game world. Players are part of our environment.

A player's accusation alone is not going to get you a warning.

Does that help?


~Wyrom, APM
The bold portion worries me. So now we have to stop, go back and try to find Tellah, and interact with him just in case he might or might not report us even if I'm busy working on something else? Uea, I know he said it "increases" the chance of being checked but still.

Okay, I messed up the BOLD part but it's hard to fix where I'm at.

[Latrinsorm]

I haven't played Prime in quite some time. I don't know your characters, nor do I care to. The "play my way or you're bad for my game" mentality that people like yourself have is too much; I can't take it.

It's a bad idea to try to kick a cobra. Not responding to people in an online game... eh... what, a script check?

In your opinion. Contrary to what many of you seem to think, it's not your game. Gemstone does not revolve around you nor have you been appointed to any position to police or otherwise manage the game. If people don't respond to you, suck it up. I'm sure it will be very difficult to get over the digital snubbing, but you'll manage (I think).Why would you think so? You couldn't get over the mean people forcing you to play their way.

[Kithus]

The bold portion worries me. So now we have to stop, go back and try to find Tellah, and interact with him just in case he might or might not report us even if I'm busy working on something else? Uea, I know he said it "increases" the chance of being checked but still.

Okay, I messed up the BOLD part but it's hard to fix where I'm at.

You have nothing to worry about because if you are paying attention Tellah will report you and the GM will check you and you'll pass and hopefully they'll give you a shiny new RPA.

[Tgo01]

You have nothing to worry about because if you are paying attention Tellah will report you and the GM will check you and you'll pass and hopefully they'll give you a shiny new RPA.

Pretty sure they stopped giving out RPAs for passing script checks because, surprise surprise, people were whining about it.

I even went more out of my way than I usually do to RP the script check I received a couple of days ago. I could tell the GM was in a hurry to end the interaction. Guess from now on it's back to my "I'm here. Leave me alone."

[Hightower]

The bold portion worries me. So now we have to stop, go back and try to find Tellah, and interact with him just in case he might or might not report us even if I'm busy working on something else? Uea, I know he said it "increases" the chance of being checked but still.

I wouldn't interpret it that way. I would say that it's the pattern of behavior, not any single instance, by which we make a determination on whether another player is a bot or not. If the player making that determination feels strongly enough to REPORT, chances are good the GM will investigate sooner or later. They will ultimately make the call based upon their own observations.

~Taverkin

[subzero]

In that sense it's "ill-gotten" gains, and that I do feel is a legitimate problem particularly as it relates to the silver-for-cash trade.


And let's not kid ourselves. 99% of the people bitching about afk scripting are doing it precisely because of the cash market. Whether they feel their hunting area is being strip mined or are chaffed because someone else is making more than they are and they think it's 'unfair' for someone to script it because they can't or won't, it has to boil down to the cash game, doesn't it?

[Wrathbringer]

Pretty sure they stopped giving out RPAs for passing script checks because, surprise surprise, people were whining about it.

I even went more out of my way than I usually do to RP the script check I received a couple of days ago. I could tell the GM was in a hurry to end the interaction. Guess from now on it's back to my "I'm here. Leave me alone."

Is my script finished?

[Latrinsorm]

The bold portion worries me. So now we have to stop, go back and try to find Tellah, and interact with him just in case he might or might not report us even if I'm busy working on something else? Uea, I know he said it "increases" the chance of being checked but still.

Okay, I messed up the BOLD part but it's hard to fix where I'm at.I have found it a useful exercise to ask "or else what?" to someone saying "have to". In this case, the or else is possibly being REPORTed by a player, which carries no penalty whatsoever. Doesn't sound so bad, wouldn't you agree? Much like the people who complain we "have to" be politically correct, the punishment is incredibly mild, making their depiction of their opponents as whiners somewhat ironic.

[Latrinsorm]

And let's not kid ourselves. 99% of the people bitching about afk scripting are doing it precisely because of the cash market. Whether they feel their hunting area is being strip mined or are chaffed because someone else is making more than they are and they think it's 'unfair' for someone to script it because they can't or won't, it has to boil down to the cash game, doesn't it?I don't know if you would describe my position as bitching, but I don't care about the cash market at all.

[Berubeo21]

Here we go

[subzero]

The current APM is making progress in changing the environment in the game. Whether it's the best APM ever, or if the changes are good, is subjective and likely divided by a line very close to the one already in this thread.

If his changes reduce a small player base even more, as much as you may agree with them, was it really for the best?

As long as the changes are in line with "My Way" (I'd put the little trademark symbol up there but I'm too lazy to look it up), I don't think they care.

[Tgo01]

I don't know if you would describe my position as bitching, but I don't care about the cash market at all.

Well look at that; Latrin admitting to being part of the 1%.

[Soulance]

You have nothing to worry about because if you are paying attention Tellah will report you and the GM will check you and you'll pass and hopefully they'll give you a shiny new RPA.
If I recall the RPA was minimal and the time wasted talking with the GM on both sides is much more bothersome. A couple minute interaction with me anf about an hour according to what the GMs say on their side. I just hope they put a bit of this "enforcement" on the other side as well so people aren't "report happy."

[Methais]

The current APM is making progress in changing the environment in the game. Whether it's the best APM ever, or if the changes are good, is subjective and likely divided by a line very close to the one already in this thread.

If his changes reduce a small player base even more, as much as you may agree with them, was it really for the best?

Who were all the previous APMs? Technically PMs, but that was before Solomon took over, so APM now is basically the same as PM from before Solomon.

From what I remember it was...

Fawn
Llearyn
Kitrina
Sirina
Wyrom

I was a noob and didn't know much about anything during most of Fawn's time, Llearyn did a lot of good stuff for the game, Kitrina wasn't bad but I can't honestly think of anything memorable that happened under her, I wasn't playing much at all during Sirina but from everything I heard she did pretty much nothing, so that pretty much leaves Wyrom and Llearyn, maybe Fawn.

[Wrathbringer]

I don't know if you would describe my position as bitching, but I don't care about the cash market at all.

Bird once had a triple double by halftime. How about that.

[Atlanteax]

If I recall the RPA was minimal and the time wasted talking with the GM on both sides is much more bothersome. A couple minute interaction with me and about an hour according to what the GMs say on their side. I just hope they put a bit of this "enforcement" on the other side as well so people aren't "report happy."

From my experience, I did not see activity that would be proactive in this regard. Was too much lip-service.

[Latrinsorm]

Bird once had a triple double by halftime. How about that.Kobe would have had a quadruple double by the end of the first quarter. Count the rings.

[Kithus]

Who were all the previous APMs? Technically PMs, but that was before Solomon took over, so APM now is basically the same as PM from before Solomon.

From what I remember it was...

Fawn
Llearyn
Kitrina
Sirina
Wyrom

I was a noob and didn't know much about anything during most of Fawn's time, Llearyn did a lot of good stuff for the game, Kitrina wasn't bad but I can't honestly think of anything memorable that happened under her, I wasn't playing much at all during Sirina but from everything I heard she did pretty much nothing, so that pretty much leaves Wyrom and Llearyn, maybe Fawn.

Hey now I said APM! I'd say he's our best PM since Melissa.

[Sorcasaurus]

Hey now I said APM! I'd say he's our best PM since Melissa.

Eh, ok. Got me with the APM title part of it.

[subzero]

Why would you think so? You couldn't get over the mean people forcing you to play their way.

What makes you think I've ever had a problem with people trying to force me to play a particular way? I've always played the game the way I wanted to play it and have never had a problem doing so.

[subzero]

You have nothing to worry about because if you are paying attention Tellah will report you and the GM will check you and you'll pass and hopefully they'll give you a shiny new RPA.

Wouldn't it just be so much easier if people could just play the game and not worry about what other people are doing or how they're doing it? Do we really need all the snitches and self-righteousness?

If the treasure system were fixed so that it wasn't completely retarded (like it is now) and people wouldn't feel that scripters are taking money out of their pockets, would this even be an issue?

[Latrinsorm]

What makes you think I've ever had a problem with people trying to force me to play a particular way? I've always played the game the way I wanted to play it and have never had a problem doing so.The part where you say "I haven't played Prime in quite some time. ... The 'play my way or you're bad for my game' mentality that people like yourself have is too much; I can't take it."

[Nahkaev]

If the treasure system were fixed so that it wasn't completely retarded (like it is now) and people wouldn't feel that scripters are taking money out of their pockets, would this even be an issue?

I think that's a big part of the issue. I certainly have no qualm with folks scripting, but when you're underhunting more than 10 levels just for coin/boxes/skins/whatever, and you drive an entire area of a map to the point of abject poverty- then either the system needs to be addressed for ineffective risk-reward correlation, OR the players' behaviors need to be governed. I think adjustments to the loot system are the better solution here.

[subzero]

The part where you say "I haven't played Prime in quite some time. ... The 'play my way or you're bad for my game' mentality that people like yourself have is too much; I can't take it."

That mentality contributed to my leaving, but it wasn't something I personally dealt with. Yes, I said, "I can't take it", but it was more along the lines of, "I want to slap the piss out of you whiny fucks" than "OMG OMG, I can't do eeeeet!" while pulling out my hair.

[subzero]

I think that's a big part of the issue. I certainly have no qualm with folks scripting, but when you're underhunting more than 10 levels just for coin/boxes/skins/whatever, and you drive an entire area of a map to the point of abject poverty- then either the system needs to be addressed for ineffective risk-reward correlation, OR the players' behaviors need to be governed. I think adjustments to the loot system are the better solution here.

The treasure system is absolutely the problem. Why do people underhunt for money? Because the game ends at a certain point. Eventually more and more people get crammed into that end-point, and guess how the treasure system treats them for hunting at the highest levels? Like bums holding out a cup for coins. More people hunting an area because they have all of 2-3 places to choose from = less loot. If you want loot, you've got to go get it somewhere there aren't as many people hunting and that tends to irritate the people who are hunting like-level creatures and banking while doing so. It's set up to fail hard and all for the sake of 'realism'. Yay fantasy-world realism!


"Lets let them ruin the prime economy and have it be similar to shattered where silvers are meaningless"

See... boils down to the cash game. I guess you'd better sit around reporting people then. Don't want any of those dirty, economy-wrecking criminals to slip through the cracks! I just ask one thing. When you're busy pla... scratch that, policing the people playing the game, go all out. Put on a badge and/or uniform while doing so.

[Tgo01]

I think that's a big part of the issue. I certainly have no qualm with folks scripting, but when you're underhunting more than 10 levels just for coin/boxes/skins/whatever, and you drive an entire area of a map to the point of abject poverty- then either the system needs to be addressed for ineffective risk-reward correlation, OR the players' behaviors need to be governed. I think adjustments to the loot system are the better solution here.


The treasure system is absolutely the problem. Why do people underhunt for money? Because the game ends at a certain point. Eventually more and more people get crammed into that end-point, and guess how the treasure system treats them for hunting at the highest levels? Like bums holding out a cup for coins. More people hunting an area because they have all of 2-3 places to choose from = less loot. If you want loot, you've got to go get it somewhere there aren't as many people hunting and that tends to irritate the people who are hunting like-level creatures and banking while doing so. It's set up to fail hard and all for the sake of 'realism'. Yay fantasy-world realism!

It's funny because Wyrom even mentioned one time that skinning in general was a "problem" because it allowed people to farm for silvers. I even mentioned what you two say; people wouldn't have to farm low level critters for treasure if the capped hunting areas actually gave good loot and the risk/reward wasn't so out of whack.

He responded with the same regurgitated response of "Well...hunting pressure!" At this point that's a cop out. We all are aware of hunting pressure. We all understand the original intent behind it. However that was many years ago. Things have changed. It's time to change this.

It also irked me when he said he felt there was just as much danger for a level 20 character hunting in a like level hunting area as there was for a capped character hunting in a capped hunting area.

Someone could assign a macro to each key on their keyboard; some macros shout out a phrase, some use a verb, some attack, some cast spells and some hide, and mash the buttons at random and they would have little to no trouble in most level 20 hunting areas. This is nowhere near the case for capped hunting areas. Although with the release of 319 that might change things.

[subzero]

He responded with the same regurgitated response of "Well...hunting pressure!" At this point that's a cop out. We all are aware of hunting pressure. We all understand the original intent behind it. However that was many years ago. Things have changed. It's time to change this.


That's how they operate. Similar situation happened when they allowed teleporting into Nelemar with the Voln update. Prior to that, some areas were simply off limits to teleport spells because they allowed you to bypass skill checks (they put in a lot of work to make sure we all properly train in climbing and swimming, afterall!). Some IC reason was slapped on the problem and there it was. No teleporting. And then one day they decided to chuck that shit out the window and allow Voln members to teleport in. No other ports, just that one. Why? Because.

[Haldrik]

The treasure system is absolutely the problem. Why do people underhunt for money? Because the game ends at a certain point. Eventually more and more people get crammed into that end-point, and guess how the treasure system treats them for hunting at the highest levels? Like bums holding out a cup for coins. More people hunting an area because they have all of 2-3 places to choose from = less loot. If you want loot, you've got to go get it somewhere there aren't as many people hunting and that tends to irritate the people who are hunting like-level creatures and banking while doing so. It's set up to fail hard and all for the sake of 'realism'. Yay fantasy-world realism!


"Lets let them ruin the prime economy and have it be similar to shattered where silvers are meaningless"


Dragonrealms has the typical "higher level creatures have more expensive skins" with no hunting pressure and the game seems to survive. Although the only silver sells going on is those with high level accounts. I would actually say there is less silver being generated with this type of system because there are less capped characters.

So in DR, only the high level characters sell silvers for cash. Where Gemstone you have the opposite, anyone not high level makes far more money then high level characters in capped ground.

I'd argue that Gemstone's system puts out FAR MORE silver then a regular hunting system because everyone level 1-90 can earn silver. They basically put this completely pointless system in to try and police a system that is actually a lesser of 2 evils system.

Also... whatever happened to risk vs reward.

[Ysamine]

Red rep: You appear to be trying very hard to append your name to the list of braindead assholes in these threads who are incapable of following a singular train of thought.

Dude, what?

[Methais]

Hey now I said APM! I'd say he's our best PM since Melissa.

Today's APM is the same as pre-Solomon PM.

[Silvean]

You were actually the one who turned me on to consistent roleplay during a chance encounter in the crypts. You guided me around and explained the history of Bandur Etrevion. I want to say that was back in the late 90s.

Thanks for reminding me of this. That was fun.


I'll give an example of how they are a problem.

Yeah, that sounds like a problem. I don't know if "RP snobs" is the best name for it. For what it's worth, the GMs seem to have cut way back on the blanket RPAs.

I have not participated in the Cross into Shadows storyline very much myself. The main reason is that I am in EST and it usually starts up around midnight. I have other problems with it as well but there's a lot of good there too; I'm happy so many people are enjoying it.

Gemstone has never lived up to its potential for roleplaying. You can stack that up with a lot of its other flaws. You have to make your own fun in the game and it sucks that you feel like other people tried to run interference when you were doing just that.

[Methais]

All this bullshit he is doing is detracting from the real issue. It's called development. More hunting areas, more content, more professional development, more dynamic gameplay.

Instead of wasting all his time on this witch hunt, if he just brought more players in then I'm sure the interaction would increase 10x more then by "Scaring away people who script."

Do people still not realize that while all this stuff goes on, the dev GMs are still holed up in their areas coding? Dev GMs rarely if ever get involved in this type of thing. It's all done on the CE side.


It's a bad idea to try to kick a cobra.

ORLY?

https://arealamericanbook.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/thecobrastrikes_screencap11.jpg


That's how they operate. Similar situation happened when they allowed teleporting into Nelemar with the Voln update. Prior to that, some areas were simply off limits to teleport spells because they allowed you to bypass skill checks (they put in a lot of work to make sure we all properly train in climbing and swimming, afterall!). Some IC reason was slapped on the problem and there it was. No teleporting. And then one day they decided to chuck that shit out the window and allow Voln members to teleport in. No other ports, just that one. Why? Because.

And it is fucking awesome.

And yeah, the treasure system is fucked at cap and Simu as a whole doesn't seem to think there's anything wrong with it.

[Silvean]

They definitely know the treasure system at cap is a huge problem. I think they are aware of all the same problems with the game that the players are.

Simu will spend 6 months reviewing a 9-page document for release. There is little else to say. They have a variety of organizational and staffing issues hindering their work.

[Haldrik]

Do people still not realize that while all this stuff goes on, the dev GMs are still holed up in their areas coding? Dev GMs rarely if ever get involved in this type of thing. It's all done on the CE side.



This is simply not true. GMs have complained repeatedly from being taken away from other work to do script checks. Coding is not the only thing involved in development.

For example, Let's say Finros decides to make monks not shit and adds in MoC to fighting. To do this, he adds 35 lines of new flavor messaging which helps multi opponent combat. Wyrom is 2nd in line to approve those lines of code. GM #1 is 1st in line.

GM #1 works 10 hours per week, 2 hours per day.

He spends 1 hour per day script checking, and then has 1 other hour per day to work on whatever. He spends that other 1 hour per day creating items for a paid event.

Thus, the lines are sitting in QC for an 3-4 weeks while he finished the paid event items.

Let's say that he finally gets around to doing the QC on those lines of code. It then goes up to Wyorm who has 20 hours per week. Since he is reviewing every script check, he probably spends 10 hours of that week reviewing script checks from the 45-50 script checks per week.

He now has 10 hours left to review everything that he has to review. Let's say after 6 months he finally finishes the QC on those 35 lines of text and finds 15 errors/changes. He then sends it back to Finros and the process repeats.

So it takes 1 year to approve 35 lines of code because the GMs spend a lot of time on script checking.

So in reality, players who constantly report because a person isn't interacting, even though they aren't afk, are shooting themselves in the foot along with everyone else. If a player keeps reporting someone and they are not getting AFK warnings, this probably means they are not AFK. Yet those players will continue to report because they don't agree with someones play style. It's fucking stupid.

[Laviticas]

Thanks for reminding me of this. That was fun.



Yeah, that sounds like a problem. I don't know if "RP snobs" is the best name for it. For what it's worth, the GMs seem to have cut way back on the blanket RPAs.

I have not participated in the Cross into Shadows storyline very much myself. The main reason is that I am in EST and it usually starts up around midnight. I have other problems with it as well but there's a lot of good there too; I'm happy so many people are enjoying it.

Gemstone has never lived up to its potential for roleplaying. You can stack that up with a lot of its other flaws. You have to make your own fun in the game and it sucks that you feel like other people tried to run interference when you were doing just that.

I think the worst outcome was the departure of 3 returning players who's reason for leaving again was " I'm not doing this again, nothing has changed, the game is oriented around the same people."

[Tgo01]

the game is oriented around the same people."

It's funny because MARSTREFORN basically admitted this on the officials.


As a GM, I feel it would be a waste of time and energy to brainstorm a scenario, engage with players, and then end up having to do an "AFK check" instead. I guess you could say they are "special", because they aren't mindlessly killing critters and gaining experience with scripts. So, yes, some players have proven themselves as engaging and have enriched the game rather than becoming "high maintenance" or otherwise less appealing to our efforts.

Gemstone IV is a roleplaying game, first and foremost, for many of us. While that is not the only part of Gemstone IV that enthralls people to play the game, it is the very foundation on what the flavor of this game is built upon. Otherwise, we might as well just be rolling dice in a box without any real reason behind it.

While each player pays the same. Those who put an effort into "playing" the game should be rewarded for that effort. Those who create unwanted situations should not expect to be rewarded for it, and they should not get upset when something negative occurs as a result.

Which I guess in retrospect explains a lot in regards to why the population has been declining so long; when you actively seek out particular people to engage with and don't want to risk "wasting your time" by engaging in new/other players, I guess it makes sense that certain people stick around while others leave in droves.

[Lord Orbstar]

Nothing the GM said is off base. He is spot on.

[Tgo01]

Nothing the GM said is off base. He is spot on.

That GMs plays favorites? Yes. That was my point ;)

[Laviticas]

It's a shame. These people that left had never used scripts, all of them RP and community oriented. It left us all with the feeling that our subs were wanted, but forget joining us in our sandbox. The amount of time and effort we put in was ignored because we decided to exclude the all-stars, not my decision but the unanimous decision of the other players to exclude them

[Allereli]

It's a shame. These people that left had never used scripts, all of them RP and community oriented. It left us all with the feeling that our subs were wanted, but forget joining us in our sandbox. The amount of time and effort we put in was ignored because we decided to exclude the all-stars, not my decision but the unanimous decision of the other players to exclude them

what was your storyline about?

[Laviticas]

Krolvin, summoning of the last Bloodfist, worms, occupation, you know all the stuff involved with a story line except based on actual events and not the official documented crap that pretty much is not what really happened.

[Warriorbird]

If only I didn't have the profound suspicion that MARSTREFORN would be a jerk to people even if they roleplayed.


It's a shame. These people that left had never used scripts, all of them RP and community oriented. It left us all with the feeling that our subs were wanted, but forget joining us in our sandbox. The amount of time and effort we put in was ignored because we decided to exclude the all-stars, not my decision but the unanimous decision of the other players to exclude them

If you do group stuff you have to always be prepared for it not to be recognized or it to be recognized by not the people you want. Lot of politics involved.

[subzero]

And it is fucking awesome.


Oh, I'm sure it is. I just wish that when they took a shit all over their reasoning behind a teleport ban, they'd have lifted it for other teleports as well (namely 740) rather than just saying, "Eh, well, these guys can now teleport in thar. The rest of you... uh, well, teleport restrictions remain! Suck it."

[Laviticas]

I was completely aware of this going in to it. That idea was pretty much the foundation of the story. We knew going in what we would be facing, sadly we proved everything we set out to do. The funnest part for me was punching holes in the ridiculous official documentation. More of that is to come though, as we are working to have the history of the bugs revised to shed light on what really happened, the evidence is damning.

[Soulance]

You're dumb, massively dumb, so dumb I have trouble believing you're over the age of 12 dumb
Ouch, again. Is that really necessary? Okay. If you want to act like 12 year olds...sticks and stones my friend.

[Haldrik]

It's funny because MARSTREFORN basically admitted this on the officials.



Which I guess in retrospect explains a lot in regards to why the population has been declining so long; when you actively seek out particular people to engage with and don't want to risk "wasting your time" by engaging in new/other players, I guess it makes sense that certain people stick around while others leave in droves.

Mars got it wrong. Gemstone was always mechanics based. Dragonrealms was the "RP First" game. This is most obvious by combat. E.g. Gemstone has dice rolling etc. Dragonrealms has everything hidden behind flavor text.

It's pretty clear to me that all the hardcore script haters just need to move to platinum. They will likely get a less scripty world over there.

[Velfi]

More and more I ask myself why I donate money to Simu that I could be spending on literally anything else.

[Androidpk]

Nothing the GM said is off base. He is spot on.

Ditto.

[Tgo01]

Ditto.

I'm just surprised to see a GM come right out and admit they play favorites. I'll give that Mars guy credit for being honest.

Kind of silly though if you ask me.

"Yes you all pay the same amount of money but some of you don't play the way we like so we aren't going to bother wasting time on you."

[Androidpk]

I'm just surprised to see a GM come right out and admit they play favorites. I'll give that Mars guy credit for being honest.

Kind of silly though if you ask me.

"Yes you all pay the same amount of money but some of you don't play the way we like so we aren't going to bother wasting time on you."

You're grasping at straws.

[Tgo01]

You're grasping at straws.

???

That's exactly what he said. You don't even have to read between the lines.

Okay I'm paraphrasing what he said but that is what he said.

[Haldrik]

More and more I ask myself why I donate money to Simu that I could be spending on literally anything else.

Anything else will give you 10000000x more content too.

[Hightower]

And let's not kid ourselves. 99% of the people bitching about afk scripting are doing it precisely because of the cash market. Whether they feel their hunting area is being strip mined or are chaffed because someone else is making more than they are and they think it's 'unfair' for someone to script it because they can't or won't, it has to boil down to the cash game, doesn't it?

Not exactly. At least not for me. But at what point do we acknowledge the impact on the game for players who otherwise don't care about the cash trade? I'm in that camp. I really couldn't care less if you as an individual are making money, but I also observe more and more bots. There has to be a point at which we acknowledge the cash botting as a problem, collectively. WoW reached that point. I have no idea how or if they handled it, but at one point players were getting spammed relentlessly with advertisements by Chinese gold farmers. I cared a lot less about it there because of the way that game worked. If such a scenario became reality here it would destroy the game, in my opinion.

~Taverkin

[Haldrik]

Not exactly. At least not for me. But at what point do we acknowledge the impact on the game for players who otherwise don't care about the cash trade? I'm in that camp. I really couldn't care less if you as an individual are making money, but I also observe more and more bots. There has to be a point at which we acknowledge the cash botting as a problem, collectively. WoW reached that point. I have no idea how or if they handled it, but at one point players were getting spammed relentlessly with advertisements by Chinese gold farmers. I cared a lot less about it there because of the way that game worked. If such a scenario became reality here it would destroy the game, in my opinion.

~Taverkin

How the fuck do you know anyone is botting for cash? If you bothered reading anything between your walls of text you would realize its really not that profitable. If it was you would be able to trace the silver on the merchant forums.

Instead its people buying and selling the same silver over and over.

The botting instead is probably to level up and advance in the game. Power.

[Tgo01]

Not exactly. At least not for me. But at what point do we acknowledge the impact on the game for players who otherwise don't care about the cash trade?

As soon as we acknowledge the impact of trying to drive away people who merely annoy us rather than because they are breaking rules.

Why do you think the GM who talked to me about this was "buttering me up" as Allereli put it before she realized she shot herself in the foot with that remark and quickly deleted her post? Because the GM realized they were in a tough spot because it wasn't a simple "Hey you're breaking the rules, fuck off." It was more a situation where they had to choose between a longtime and faithful customer who wasn't breaking any rules and a bunch of whiners. They chose to go the route of asking the person very nicely if he would consider changing things.

As to your question; what impact do you think it is having? This game has always had a real world money market, at least as long as I've been playing. And you know what? Up until about 5 years ago I was vehemently against the cash market because I thought it was ruined the game but after years of thinking this and after years of hearing the reasons people give for engaging in the cash market I've changed my attitude in regards to this. Yes, making a few hundred quick dollars at the time helped.

But yes, some people would rather spend money than time to achieve the same goal. They would rather put down 2000+ dollars years ago or 500 dollars now for a capped character than to spend literally hundreds of hours over the course of 2+ years for the same results. Who are we to judge these people? It's a simple case of having more time than money, it is not a case of people being evil.

Does this person "miss out" on leveling up their character and thus shortly after receiving their capped character they end up leaving? Possibly. It's also possible the person would rather play a capped character and be more able to help out in invasions and rescues and whatnot and not being at cap causes them to leave the game prematurely as well.

This game has lasted decades now with a cash market. WoW is over 10 years old now too right? It's always had a cash market too. Eve online wasn't destroyed because of the cash market, neither was Runescape.

Yet it's always the same doom and gloom in all of these games, people screaming the end is near because of cash trades. At least the Chinese gold farmers gave these people an actual cause for concern when they started hacking into people's accounts, but that's another story.

[Hightower]

How the fuck do you know anyone is botting for cash? If you bothered reading anything between your walls of text you would realize its really not that profitable. If it was you would be able to trace the silver on the merchant forums.

Instead its people buying and selling the same silver over and over.

The botting instead is probably to level up and advance in the game. Power.


You should try reading my walls of text before you respond. I have a problem with botting. Period. The post I responded to specifically centered on the cash trade. But since you bring it up, I think the ratio of bots to actual players should be lower than it is. I'm not sure Wyrom has chosen the best way to go about it, but I'm willing to give it a shot. If it helps to reverse the trend, it may be worthwhile.

Is that short enough for you to read and understand?

~Taverkin

[Tgo01]

You should try reading my walls of text before you respond. I have a problem with botting. Period. The post I responded to specifically centered on the cash trade. But since you bring it up, I think the ratio of bots to actual players should be lower than it is. I'm not sure Wyrom has chosen the best way to go about it, but I'm willing to give it a shot. If it helps to reverse the trend, it may be worthwhile.

Is that short enough for you to read and understand?

~Taverkin

Wait, is botting the problem or is the cash market the problem? What exactly do you consider "botting"? Why is botting a problem anyways? I understand you have a problem with the cash market but assuming someone was botting and they didn't engage in the cash market; what's the problem? Who are they hurting?

[Haldrik]

You should try reading my walls of text before you respond. I have a problem with botting. Period. The post I responded to specifically centered on the cash trade. But since you bring it up, I think the ratio of bots to actual players should be lower than it is. I'm not sure Wyrom has chosen the best way to go about it, but I'm willing to give it a shot. If it helps to reverse the trend, it may be worthwhile.

Is that short enough for you to read and understand?

~Taverkin

Your self-righteous demeanor generally disqualifies anything you say. Think about it from this angle... You have been doing the same shit for _20_ years. There has been no change in combat, and no change in gameplay.

Two scenarios: The one who continues to manually do the same actions over and over again for 20 years. Or the person who writes a script (because, gemstone gave us the tools to script) to repeat the mind numbingly boring tasks? Who is the idiot in this scenario? Who should really be flamed? Who is the real culprit here?

You are. Because you accept that this type of game play is OK. It's not. If the GMs don't want people scripting, they should create actual content instead of the static rubbish that currently exists. The only dynamic element is the RP and interaction in the game. Why shouldn't I script through the garbage and then do the stuff I enjoy manually, e.g., RP?

[Hightower]

As soon as we acknowledge the impact of trying to drive away people who merely annoy us rather than because they are breaking rules.

Why do you think the GM who talked to me about this was "buttering me up" as Allereli put it before she realized she shot herself in the foot with that remark and quickly deleted her post? Because the GM realized they were in a tough spot because it wasn't a simple "Hey you're breaking the rules, fuck off." It was more a situation where they had to choose between a longtime and faithful customer who wasn't breaking any rules and a bunch of whiners. They chose to go the route of asking the person very nicely if he would consider changing things.

As to your question; what impact do you think it is having? This game has always had a real world money market, at least as long as I've been playing. And you know what? Up until about 5 years ago I was vehemently against the cash market because I thought it was ruined the game but after years of thinking this and after years of hearing the reasons people give for engaging in the cash market I've changed my attitude in regards to this. Yes, making a few hundred quick dollars at the time helped.

But yes, some people would rather spend money than time to achieve the same goal. They would rather put down 2000+ dollars years ago or 500 dollars now for a capped character than to spend literally hundreds of hours over the course of 2+ years for the same results. Who are we to judge these people? It's a simple case of having more time than money, it is not a case of people being evil.

Does this person "miss out" on leveling up their character and thus shortly after receiving their capped character they end up leaving? Possibly. It's also possible the person would rather play a capped character and be more able to help out in invasions and rescues and whatnot and not being at cap causes them to leave the game prematurely as well.

This game has lasted decades now with a cash market. WoW is over 10 years old now too right? It's always had a cash market too. Eve online wasn't destroyed because of the cash market, neither was Runescape.

Yet it's always the same doom and gloom in all of these games, people screaming the end is near because of cash trades. At least the Chinese gold farmers gave these people an actual cause for concern when they started hacking into people's accounts, but that's another story.


I'm not judging. I have one and only one concern: That too many bots will create a game nobody wants to play, and more to the point one I would not like to play. You can break that down however you like. That's how I feel about it. I know you disagree.

~Taverkin

[Hightower]

Your self-righteous demeanor generally disqualifies anything you say. Think about it from this angle... You have been doing the same shit for _20_ years. There has been no change in combat, and no change in gameplay.

Two scenarios: The one who continues to manually do the same actions over and over again for 20 years. Or the person who writes a script (because, gemstone gave us the tools to script) to repeat the mind numbingly boring tasks? Who is the idiot in this scenario? Who should really be flamed? Who is the real culprit here?

You are. Because you accept that this type of game play is OK. It's not. If the GMs don't want people scripting, they should create actual content instead of the static rubbish that currently exists. The only dynamic element is the RP and interaction in the game. Why shouldn't I script through the garbage and then when I actually play, do the stuff I enjoy?

First, I use plenty of scripts. What I don't do is watch the game play itself. I know you don't see a difference. Well, I do. Botting is more than just scripting.

Also, I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm okay with the glacial pace of development. I routinely talk about that as well and I agree with you if you say that's a significant factor in why people do what they do. That doesn't mean that I have to support your preferred solution.

~Taverkin

[Soulance]

The botting instead is probably to level up and advance in the game. Power.
I admit that is my reason for script hunting. I could care less about the silvers. I actually lose silvers on quite a few hunts.

I like to advance, then I can spend time interacting and helping others.

[Tgo01]

That too many bots will create a game nobody wants to play, and more to the point one I would not like to play.

Yes but why do you feel this way? How are bots hurting you or the game you play?

Let's say GS had 200 players on at any given time...not too much of a stretch of the imagination.

In scenario A 150 of those players are considered "bots" to you and the other 50 people just put up with the bots and go about their business.
In scenario B 150 of those players are bots but the 50 people manage to drive them out of the game. The game now has 50 active players at any given time. What exactly has changed? Other than Simu is making even less money off of GS that won't ever go back into the game?

[Hightower]

Wait, is botting the problem or is the cash market the problem? What exactly do you consider "botting"? Why is botting a problem anyways? I understand you have a problem with the cash market but assuming someone was botting and they didn't engage in the cash market; what's the problem? Who are they hurting?

Botting is a problem because most people are doing it AFK. Why wouldn't they? Most of them didn't write their scripts themselves and don't take any particular interest in watching the game play itself.

Botting is also a problem because it lends an unfair advantage to the players that engage in it. This tends to result in hard feelings on the part of players who play the game attentively.

I have a problem with botting because I can't interact with bots and they tend to drive away the players who I can interact with. You'll downplay the significance of my reasoning here because it doesn't jive with your view on the issue, but I've already lost multiple friends and several of the new players I've mentored because they perceive that few people in this game interact and most of them appear to be simply running scripts. I don't really care about any one individual bot, and that's why I generally don't bother to report them. I have a problem with the overall impact. Whether you do it for cash or levels or both doesn't matter to me at all.

~Taverkin

[Haldrik]

Botting is a problem because most people are doing it AFK. Why wouldn't they? Most of them didn't write their scripts themselves and don't take any particular interest in watching the game play itself.

Botting is also a problem because it lends an unfair advantage to the players that engage in it. This tends to result in hard feelings on the part of players who play the game attentively.

I have a problem with botting because I can't interact with bots and they tend to drive away the players who I can interact with. You'll downplay the significance of my reasoning here because it doesn't jive with your view on the issue, but I've already lost multiple friends and several of the new players I've mentored because they perceive that few people in this game interact and most of them appear to be simply running scripts. I don't really care about any one individual bot, and that's why I generally don't bother to report them. I have a problem with the overall impact. Whether you do it for cash or levels or both doesn't matter to me at all.

~Taverkin

Okay, let's take this thought to fruition and use TG's post as an example. Let's say Simu bans scripting and we lose 150 botters/scripters. That leaves 50 people actually playing the game.

What will those new people do then? Will they instead complain that the game is empty and no one plays? If people are leaving because there isn't enough interaction, they they probably don't enjoy the base game. E.g. The Mechanics and hunting. That's not a script/bot issue, thats a development issue.

Or, are you suggesting people should play the game and RP only?

[Tgo01]

I have a problem with botting because I can't interact with bots and they tend to drive away the players who I can interact with. You'll downplay the significance of my reasoning here because it doesn't jive with your view on the issue

I'm downplaying the significance because your reasoning doesn't jive, period.


but I've already lost multiple friends and several of the new players I've mentored because they perceive that few people in this game interact and most of them appear to be simply running scripts.

Yes. Now imagine those people are gone, how would anything your friends or disciples said be any different? If they felt not many people in the game interacted that's because not many people in the game interacted, this doesn't magically change because people are running scripts.

[Soulance]

If the GMs don't want people scripting, they should create actual content instead of the static rubbish that currently exists.
I think there is something to be said about this. If you want people more active in RP, then make more stuff exciting and worth RPing in. Invasions bring everyone out of the woodwork and I'd think most people would have a hard time scripting those. EG had some potentially scripting issues but that sounded like it was for the monotonous stuff like digging...

The GS world is big enough for the small population that is in GS where people can probably spread out and do anything they really want without being noticed much. Is it that people are so bored that they need to find something to point out?

It sounds right that the treasure system is messed up. So, work on that. If you seem to script, then the system could adapt to that. They said they pretty much can tell by the way people operate if they are scripting, right? So spend half the time coding that rather than trying to catch someone and drop nicer loot for the people who aren't scripting and pull back on those who do exhibit signs. If there's a problem, then the one who appear to be scripting could file an ASSIST and have things cleared up in a short conversation rather than taking up an hour of the GMs time "setting things up" to catch a scripter.

Why does it matter why someone wants to play the game? Why should I play seeing as my time is limited and most of the things that happen in GS are during times I'm not on? Yet, I still enjoy the game and interacting how and when I want.

Sure, sometimes I might do something to annoy someone else but I don't go out to do it intentionally. Isn't that life though? Full of people and things that annoy you from time to time.

Much like this post. Just like in the game - it annoys you, then let it go.

[Hightower]

Yes but why do you feel this way? How are bots hurting you or the game you play?

Let's say GS had 200 players on at any given time...not too much of a stretch of the imagination.

In scenario A 150 of those players are considered "bots" to you and the other 50 people just put up with the bots and go about their business.
In scenario B 150 of those players are bots but the 50 people manage to drive them out of the game. The game now has 50 active players at any given time. What exactly has changed? Other than Simu is making even less money off of GS that won't ever go back into the game?


Why are there only two options? In reality, none of this happens in an instant. Players leaving happens over time. If during that time some of them returned, and some of them joined on for the first time, perhaps if the ratio were not 150 to 50 but something more favorable as one might expect during a gradual shift resulting, for instance, from a change in enforcement and/or policy, then might those new and returning players not stay rather than leave as some of my friends have? That seems a lot more plausible to me than either of the two scenarios you'd like for me to choose from.

Honestly, while I see a lot of people botting, I think targeting a few of the more vocal main offenders would go a long way toward curbing the trend back to a manageable level. Is that not what Wyrom seems to have in mind?

~Taverkin

[Methais]

Instead its people buying and selling the same silver over and over.

WAT?

[Tgo01]

Why are there only two options?

Because that's most likely what will happen. If someone enjoys "botting" this game chances are they will leave if they were forced to stop. Even if all of the botters didn't leave you can't deny that most of them would leave and of the ones who stayed who is to say they are going to start interacting with other people? They may very well just start doing everything manually and by hand and still hang out by themselves at a table. You're not going to force people to play the game the way you want them to.


Honestly, while I see a lot of people botting, I think targeting a few of the more vocal main offenders would go a long way toward curbing the trend back to a manageable level. Is that not what Wyrom seems to have in mind?

I have no idea what Wyrom has in mind. I think making an example out of people is a bad way to go about things.

[Laviticas]

I'm finding it more and more interesting to listen to what you are saying Taverkin. You are worried that "botting" is having a negative effect on the game environment. This may or may not be true, this is your opinion and you want others to abide by your opinion, I get it.

Personally I see the trolling to have a greater negative impact on the game community, you have said how you enjoy trolling the shit out of people and again you expect people to abide to what you like to do. You want people to be less sensitive or pretty much act like they have no feelings so you can have your fun at the expense of the game environment. But that's ok because it's your fun. It's coming off like "I am the great Taverkin, you will play how I see fit."

[Haldrik]

Honestly, while I see a lot of people botting, I think targeting a few of the more vocal main offenders would go a long way toward curbing the trend back to a manageable level. Is that not what Wyrom seems to have in mind?

~Taverkin

This doesn't make any sense either. Who is a "vocal main offender?" I guarantee there is a shit load more scripters out there that are not posting on either forum. And if you are suggesting GMs are targeting people because of posts on PC... I suppose that is possible but I don't see how that makes any sort of difference.

It sounds like what you are hoping will happen is that everyone will magically stop scripting if they get in trouble. I can tell unequivocally there is no fucking way. Before I was script checked 100 times I was playing 16+ hour days and bullshitting/Rping/talking and scripting during hunts. Then the crackdowns starting happening and I started getting irritated. Then I started playing/scripting 8 hours a day with 0 interaction. Then I started playing/scripting 4 hours a day.

So if anything it was weening me off the game. Thanks GMS! :) You done me a solid. Now I'll go drop $40-$60 on something deserving it.

[subzero]

But at what point do we acknowledge the impact on the game for players who otherwise don't care about the cash trade? I'm in that camp. I really couldn't care less if you as an individual are making money, but I also observe more and more bots.

At what point do we acknowledge the impact scripting has on the game for players who don't care about the cash trade? The only real potential impact would be on loot and that is going to bite you if they're scripting or not. Other than that, any impact a scripter has on you as another player is in your head. The only thing they're doing that you aren't is reacting faster and possibly better. At the end of the day, there will always be someone better and/or faster whether it's with scripts or not.


There has to be a point at which we acknowledge the cash botting as a problem, collectively.

I don't really keep up with the market nor do I have a single bit of data on people botting for silvers to flip. I don't know that there is a problem with people 'cash botting'. Shit, people have been farming the ever-living hell out of this game for a lot longer than most people have been using Lich. Is there really an issue? Obviously TGO hasn't been afk scripting, so... there's a problem with him making silvers because a script enters 'attack buttmonkey' rather than him pressing a macro or typing it in every time?


WoW reached that point. I have no idea how or if they handled it, but at one point players were getting spammed relentlessly with advertisements by Chinese gold farmers. I cared a lot less about it there because of the way that game worked. If such a scenario became reality here it would destroy the game, in my opinion.
~Taverkin

They haven't solved their spam problem. I don't think anyone has. Fear not, though! This game does not have anywhere near the player base for a warehouse of Chinese children to be put to work farming for digital loot. Also, since the truly good items don't just randomly drop from things anyone can kill at any time, there's even less incentive. They'd have to farm silvers which would just ruin the loot everywhere and put themselves out of business. Yes... those kids get paid to work 10-12 hours (or more) farming games like Warcraft. Not gonna happen here. Ever.


Botting is also a problem because it lends an unfair advantage to the players that engage in it. This tends to result in hard feelings on the part of players who play the game attentively.

People who don't have jobs and can play all day have an unfair advantage, too. Should they have to quit or get a job so the playing field is equal? I know it's cliche, but damn... life ain't fair. It damn sure isn't fair in gaming. Again, there will always be someone with more time, money, skill, or desire than you do. Those things can and will give people an advantage over those who do not possess them.


I have a problem with botting because I can't interact with bots and they tend to drive away the players who I can interact with.

Do you really think the people 'botting' would interact with you if they were forced to do things manually rather than have a script do them? I don't. It'll take longer for them to do things manually, so they'd likely be in more of a rush to get things done and be quicker to ignore you.


You'll downplay the significance of my reasoning here because it doesn't jive with your view on the issue, but I've already lost multiple friends and several of the new players I've mentored because they perceive that few people in this game interact and most of them appear to be simply running scripts.

Been that way for a looong time. I'm not so sure scripting has anything to do with it.

[Buckwheet]

Thats what I guess I don't understand. What difference does it make that Speaker had all those items in his locker or Sabreon had 45m experience. It just doesn't impact my gaming in the least.

[subzero]

Yes. Now imagine those people are gone, how would anything your friends or disciples said be any different? If they felt not many people in the game interacted that's because not many people in the game interacted, this doesn't magically change because people are running scripts.

Honestly, I'd think scripting would provide more opportunity for interaction. You get the bullshit out of the way quicker and have your hands free to talk or do other things while the scripts take care of spells, selling, etc.

[Methais]

Thats what I guess I don't understand. What difference does it make that Speaker had all those items in his locker or Sabreon had 45m experience. It just doesn't impact my gaming in the least.

Speaker having all that stuff in his locker impacts me because now I'll never get to own any of it. :(

[Haldrik]

At what point do we acknowledge the impact scripting has on the game for players who don't care about the cash trade? The only real potential impact would be on loot and that is going to bite you if they're scripting or not. Other than that, any impact a scripter has on you as another player is in your head. The only thing they're doing that you aren't is reacting faster and possibly better. At the end of the day, there will always be someone better and/or faster whether it's with scripts or not.



I don't really keep up with the market nor do I have a single bit of data on people botting for silvers to flip. I don't know that there is a problem with people 'cash botting'. Shit, people have been farming the ever-living hell out of this game for a lot longer than most people have been using Lich. Is there really an issue? Obviously TGO hasn't been afk scripting, so... there's a problem with him making silvers because a script enters 'attack buttmonkey' rather than him pressing a macro or typing it in every time?



They haven't solved their spam problem. I don't think anyone has. Fear not, though! This game does not have anywhere near the player base for a warehouse of Chinese children to be put to work farming for digital loot. Also, since the truly good items don't just randomly drop from things anyone can kill at any time, there's even less incentive. They'd have to farm silvers which would just ruin the loot everywhere and put themselves out of business. Yes... those kids get paid to work 10-12 hours (or more) farming games like Warcraft. Not gonna happen here. Ever.



People who don't have jobs and can play all day have an unfair advantage, too. Should they have to quit or get a job so the playing field is equal? I know it's cliche, but damn... life ain't fair. It damn sure isn't fair in gaming. Again, there will always be someone with more time, money, skill, or desire than you do. Those things can and will give people an advantage over those who do not possess them.



Do you really think the people 'botting' would interact with you if they were forced to do things manually rather than have a script do them? I don't. It'll take longer for them to do things manually, so they'd likely be in more of a rush to get things done and be quicker to ignore you.



Been that way for a looong time. I'm not so sure scripting has anything to do with it.

Wise. No wonder you stop playing.

[Latrinsorm]

Yes but why do you feel this way? How are bots hurting you or the game you play?

Let's say GS had 200 players on at any given time...not too much of a stretch of the imagination.

In scenario A 150 of those players are considered "bots" to you and the other 50 people just put up with the bots and go about their business.
In scenario B 150 of those players are bots but the 50 people manage to drive them out of the game. The game now has 50 active players at any given time. What exactly has changed? Other than Simu is making even less money off of GS that won't ever go back into the game?Not everyone who breaks policy would quit the game if it was sufficiently policed, in the same way that not everyone who breaks the speed limit would quit driving if it was, or the way that not everyone who hated Bush/Obama moved to Canada/Russia. Please note how what people THREATEN they'll do has very little correlation with what they actually will. Additionally, this behavior is driving people away, therefore eliminating that behavior will prevent and to some degree recoup that loss.
Sure, sometimes I might do something to annoy someone else but I don't go out to do it intentionally. Isn't that life though? Full of people and things that annoy you from time to time.

Much like this post. Just like in the game - it annoys you, then let it go.And just like in life, there is a line that if you cross you will be punished. You can play annoying music, unless you play it too loud or at a certain time or in a certain place or in a certain manner, then you're disturbing the peace. Note how just like in life, what constitutes these "certains" is entirely up to the discretion of the authority figure.

[Tgo01]

Not everyone who breaks policy would quit the game if it was sufficiently policed

Not everyone who isn't breaking policy would continue to play the game if they were bullied into changing the way they play the game because of a few whiners who thought they weren't playing the game correctly.

Sure, I suppose some people might continue playing but I know for sure I wouldn't and I doubt I'm alone. Why would I want to play in a game where a vocal and whiny minority gets to dictate how I play the game?

[subzero]

You can play annoying music, unless you play it too loud or at a certain time or in a certain place or in a certain manner, then you're disturbing the peace. Note how just like in life, what constitutes these "certains" is entirely up to the discretion of the authority figure.

C'mon now, you know better than that. Using your music scenario... you crank up your music at 6pm:

If the Gemstone GMs are running the show, the one that arrives on the first day might decide that your music is indeed too loud regardless of the fact that it's 6pm and make you turn it down, fine you, whatever it is they do. The very next day, you do the same thing except a different GM shows up. This GM decides it's early and the music isn't too loud. Carry on.

If you're dealing with a cop, he might ask you to keep it down just to keep people happy, but if you aren't violating a noise ordinance, your complaining neighbors are out of gas. The next day another cop shows up, determines you are not breaking any noise ordinance laws, and hops his happy ass back in his car and drives off.

See, rules and laws work a whole lot better when they're clearly defined. Gemstone policy, on the other hand, is very nebulous and subjective. There's nothing subjective about not being able to play music above X decibels past 8pm. When your policy is based on, 'disruptive to others', well... you're gonna have a fucking mess.


Sure, I suppose some people might continue playing but I know for sure I wouldn't and I doubt I'm alone. Why would I want to play in a game where a vocal and whiny minority gets to dictate how I play the game?

Subjective policy ftw!?

[Latrinsorm]

Not everyone who isn't breaking policy would continue to play the game if they were bullied into changing the way they play the game because of a few whiners who thought they weren't playing the game correctly.

Sure, I suppose some people might continue playing but I know for sure I wouldn't and I doubt I'm alone. Why would I want to play in a game where a vocal and whiny minority gets to dictate how I play the game?Won't someone PLEASE think of the children? Give it a rest. No player is forcing you to do anything. If anyone is being a vocal whiner about this it's you and Haldrik.
See, rules and laws work a whole lot better when they're clearly defined. Gemstone policy, on the other hand, is very nebulous and subjective. There's nothing subjective about not being able to play music above X decibels past 8pm. When your policy is based on, 'disruptive to others', well... you're gonna have a fucking mess.All bodies of law are nebulous and subjective, from the Constitution on down. You seriously can't see how "disruptive to others" and "disturbing the peace" are functionally the same? Here's a noise ordinance (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/pdf/noise_code_guide.pdf) for you from the greatest and best city in the world:

"Animal noise that is unreasonable and plainly audible from within nearby residential property may call for enforcement action."

I have taken the liberty of bolding a word.

[Soulance]

'disruptive to others'
Yea, we have some neighbors who play headbanger stuff until late and it drives the wife nuts. Personally, I have no trouble ignoring it. Unfortunately I do have trouble ignoring her.

The point is, as subzero mentions, "disruptive" is a variable term and therein lies the problem.

[Tgo01]

Won't someone PLEASE think of the children? Give it a rest. No player is forcing you to do anything.

Why do you engage in hypothetical then when you lose the hypothetical argument you say "No one is doing that!"

That's like...why it's called a "hypothetical."

[Laviticas]

I personally have never heard from someone that stopped playing, state that to many people scripting as the reason for
quiting. It's always been, no time to play, game development, sub prices or the GMs always focusing on the same group of players. Never once have I heard "I quit because of all the scripting".

I'm not trying to sound like a TG fanboy or some shit, but he is spot on about what these players will do. Right now I have 4 accounts, the premium one pretty much just gets logged in to for picking boxes once every few days, two of the prime subs sit at a table doing nothing and the third I play when I have time. No more writing scripts, the last bit of fun I was actually having I let go of to make people happy. I would like to think I will keep playing, but being honest with myself, I don't see me continuing to play. I have friends and family wanting me to play WOW again.

[JackWhisper]

TGO. Just play it IC.

Say you are possessed and start singing... This is the zest that doesn't end! It just goes on and on my friend...and so on and so forth.

RPA NOMS!

[Nahkaev]

I had to update this to stay current with the times;

7095

[Laviticas]

I had to update this to stay current with the times;

7095

Can't read what the sign says or the hull of the ship

[Nahkaev]

Can't read what the sign says or the hull of the ship

mmm, the Pc sucks at accepting image uploads
http://imgur.com/DZhAGSD

[Latrinsorm]

Why do you engage in hypothetical then when you lose the hypothetical argument you say "No one is doing that!"

That's like...why it's called a "hypothetical."I pointed out the flaws in your hypothetical with my first post.
Can't read what the sign says or the hull of the shipClick it.

[subzero]

All bodies of law are nebulous and subjective, from the Constitution on down. You seriously can't see how "disruptive to others" and "disturbing the peace" are functionally the same? Here's a noise ordinance (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/pdf/noise_code_guide.pdf) for you from the greatest and best city in the world:

"Animal noise that is unreasonable and plainly audible from within nearby residential property may call for enforcement action."

I have taken the liberty of bolding a word.

I didn't say rules and laws were never left open to interpretation at all. I said they work better when they're clearly defined. That might not always be possible or practical.

In your example, would it be better to attempt to nail down every noise any animal might make (keeping in mind that doing so means if you miss something, tough luck) or allow an officer to use his discretion to determine if the noise is unreasonable? The rest is pretty well defined: plainly audible within nearby residential property. Nine times out of ten, if different officers are sent to check out an animal noise complaint, I believe they will come to the same conclusion.

As nebulous as all that might seem, however, how often is that going to apply to anything other than a dog incessantly barking at nothing? I believe the vast majority of people would deem incessant barking unreasonable. In this case, the law needs to be left open because it's far too impractical to attempt to list all the possible noises it might need to encompass.

Loud music, though? Decibels. Measurement. Defined.

On the other hand, let's apply 'unreasonable' to speed limits and see how that works out.


"Honestly, I think you are a fucktard and the idea that scripting facilitates RP is untrue. Only someone who does not know or understand what RP is would make such a stupid statement."

Yes, I don't know what I was thinking. Why would I ever think that not having to type directions, get my x from my y, sell my x, rinse/repeat x100, spellups, etc would make it easier for people to see other things (such as chat or maybe other things happening nearby rather than what's in their bags or whatever) and potentially result in that oh-so-desired interaction. My bad! Scripting is bad, mmmkay?!

[Latrinsorm]

I didn't say rules and laws were never left open to interpretation at all. I said they work better when they're clearly defined. That might not always be possible or practical.

In your example, would it be better to attempt to nail down every noise any animal might make (keeping in mind that doing so means if you miss something, tough luck) or allow an officer to use his discretion to determine if the noise is unreasonable? The rest is pretty well defined: plainly audible within nearby residential property. Nine times out of ten, if different officers are sent to check out an animal noise complaint, I believe they will come to the same conclusion.

As nebulous as all that might seem, however, how often is that going to apply to anything other than a dog incessantly barking at nothing? I believe the vast majority of people would deem incessant barking unreasonable. In this case, the law needs to be left open because it's far too impractical to attempt to list all the possible noises it might need to encompass.

Loud music, though? Decibels. Measurement. Defined.

On the other hand, let's apply 'unreasonable' to speed limits and see how that works out.Would you care to list all the possible ways one player can disrupt another? This is where I should have started, in retrospect. You say the policy is bad, let's see yours that is better.

[subzero]

Would you care to list all the possible ways one player can disrupt another? This is where I should have started, in retrospect. You say the policy is bad, let's see yours that is better.

In this case, the problem with such policy is exacerbated by their poor handling of it. Obviously these types of policy can work. However, there are people who will take advantage of the fact that they know there are staff members who will take any and all complaints and go on a witch hunt. If you continually call the police to investigate someone who is repeatedly found to not be breaking any laws, they're eventually gonna shut you down instead. That won't happen in Gemstone.

[Haldrik]

Again, no. Two warning individuals are people we can clearly see using a kill switch. Clearly. No doubts.

Quote by Wyorm. They are issuing two warnings per.



No. Just no. Again, you are assuming that our script checks involve one single line of messaging and that we are just itching to lock people out with "gotcha" script checks and whatnot. We have ways to determine who is "slamming" and who is getting disconnected due to network timeouts and other technical issues.

If anyone has ever had the pleasure (because hey, I like to have fun with my script checks) of being checked by me, they know that I give ample opportunity to respond.

Some of these GMS make me laugh. They think everyone script checks like them. When in reality the checks are 2-3 lines, get a response, move on. GM will try back tomorrow.

[zzentar]

Quote by Wyorm. They are issuing two warnings per.




Some of these GMS make me laugh. They think everyone script checks like them. When in reality the checks are 2-3 lines, get a response, move on. GM will try back tomorrow.

Dude, we got it. You are clearly butt hurt over what happened to you and are cutting/pasting snippets from officials that back your side up. From your very first post, you showed you are the reason for the slamming warning. If you were worth the effort I'd look it up, but the GM asked why you disconnected and said kill switch. You acted dumb and treated the GM like they were dumber. I don't even pretend to be a coder but i could make a kill switch easily, if i was pulled, ;e wait_until {Room.current.id == 4 }; fput 'quit' would do it. Most of us on PC aren't coders and we can see what you are doing, yet you taunt GMs who are coders. You got busted on at least 3 accts by your own versions, so either stop afk scripting or stop complaining about the consequences.
~Zz

[Haldrik]

Dude, we got it. You are clearly butt hurt over what happened to you and are cutting/pasting snippets from officials that back your side up. From your very first post, you showed you are the reason for the slamming warning. If you were worth the effort I'd look it up, but the GM asked why you disconnected and said kill switch. You acted dumb and treated the GM like they were dumber. I don't even pretend to be a coder but i could make a kill switch easily, if i was pulled, ;e wait_until {Room.current.id == 4 }; fput 'quit' would do it. Most of us on PC aren't coders and we can see what you are doing, yet you taunt GMs who are coders. You got busted on at least 3 accts by your own versions, so either stop afk scripting or stop complaining about the consequences.
~Zz

Lol.

Nothing you said has any relation to what I posted.

1 - Knowing they are issuing 2 warnings now because the policy is not clear is useful information as well as a deterrent. Why would they hide the ball? It makes no sense.

2 - GM X insisting that all GMs act as they do is ridiculous. It's evident to everyone but the GMs how inconsistent their enforcement of policies, their development, roleplay, merchant/item creation is, and I will gladly point it out every time.

Also, go fuck yourself. And you are welcome for posting about these issues. Else, nothing would change, right? Since according to some posters my posts are why this is happening.

[zzentar]

Lol.

Nothing you said has any relation to what I posted.

1 - Knowing they are issuing 2 warnings now because the policy is not clear is useful information as well as a deterrent. Why would they hide the ball? It makes no sense.

2 - GM X insisting that all GMs act as they do is ridiculous. It's evident to everyone but the GMs how inconsistent their enforcement of policies, their development, roleplay, merchant/item creation is, and I will gladly point it out every time.

Also, go fuck yourself. And you are welcome for posting about these issues. Else, nothing would change, right? Since according to some posters my posts are why this is happening.

I agree your actions have caused a lot of this. You can count yourself as infamous, like the guy that got skinning nerfed in certain areas. ::CONGRATS::

By the way, this is the reason for the double tap warning, thanks to you;



You say, "Hello."

A shaft of scintillating light suddenly pierces the ceiling and strikes the ground next to you. The beam of light then explodes in a shower of sparks and Mazreth is standing in its place.
> bow
Mazreth says, "Good afternoon."
>
You bow.

You say, "Howdy."
>
Mazreth says, "I wanted to talk to you about something."

You say, "Sure."
>
Mazreth says, "Obviously I just checked to see if you were attentive while hunting and you were."

You nod.
>
Mazreth says, "However, what I would like to speak with you about is earlier, about...20 minutes ago or so."
>
You do not feel drained anymore.

You say, "Yeah, I noticed that too. I just wasn't in a spot to have a conversation with you folks."
>
Mazreth says, "That's odd since you immediately ran back to town twice and stood there doing nothing for 3-4 minutes before running back out to hunt."
>
Mazreth says, "."
>
Mazreth says, "Then the third time I tested you, you logged in the middle of combat."

You say, "I wasn't sure if you guys were going to talk to me so I was waiting."
>
Mazreth says, "Well the messaging you received gave an explicit instruction as to how to respond."
>
Mazreth says, "It was in bold and was spammed to your screen while you were in rt."

You say, "Yup for like 2 seconds."
>
Mazreth says, "10 seconds of roundtime to be exact."
>
Mazreth says, "Not 2."

You say, "Well I wasnt talking about the RT and I was hasted anyways."
>
Mazreth says, "Haste doesn't effect it when I impose it."
>
Mazreth smiles.
>
Mazreth says, "So it was a full 10 seconds."

You shake your head.
>
Mazreth asks, "Can you explain why you didn't just respond?"

You say, "I can send you logs if you like."
>
Mazreth asks, "Logs can be doctored, are you suggesting I don't know how my tools work?"
>
Mazreth raises an eyebrow in your direction.

You say, "Not at all."

You ask, "A bug perhaps?"
>
Mazreth says, "Fair enough, so when I tell you haste doesn't effect it and it was a full 10 seconds...it was a full 10 seconds."

You say, "Oh I miss. the haste changes it then it gets readded."
>
Mazreth says, "On 3 separate occaasions."

You say, "I see."

Mazreth nods.
>
You say, "It dropped it then readded."

You nod at Mazreth.

You say, "RT is easy to miss in combat sometimes."
>
Mazreth says, "So you had multiple messages with specific instructions and adequate time to read them (since the creature was dead and you were rooted there) and failed to respond."

You say, "I did respond... I just logged off or I ran back to town."

You say, "And you tested me again."

You say, "And I respodned again."
>
Mazreth says, "That is not a response, that is a kill switch."
>
Mazreth says, "I'm not stupid nor am I ignorant to coding."

You say, "I'm not sure what you are talking about."

You say, "I'm using wizard."
>
Mazreth asks, "Which means what?"
>
Mazreth asks, "Wizard doesn't run scripts?"

You ask, "I don't think kill switches even exist for that?"

You say, "I'm not a coder so you would know better then me."
>
Mazreth says, "Regardless, your lack of response is borderline at best, a policy violation at worst. After researching a little further, I see that Raeloc has been logged in for 24 hours and has gained over 40,000 exp in that time without the aid of lumnis or an rpa."

You say, "I've been up for awhile."
>
Mazreth says, "The math on that breaks down to a exp absorption rate of above 1k per hour for the entire time."

You say, "And I was idling at night."
>
Mazreth says, "So that means you have been actively hunting for what? 10 hours then."

You say, "I've got maxed logic and only hunt for like 2 minutes."

You say, "Probably more."

You say, "I'd say i was playing for 16 hours yesterday."

You say, "Then start up again this morning."

You ask, "About 4 hours ago?"

You say, "I'm at work so its doable."
>
Mazreth says, "And yet I see that you've regularly deposited and withdrawn silvers about every half hour or so for the last 24 hours so you were not idling all night."

You shrug.
>
Mazreth says, "Based on the rate of exp gained over time, and the lack of response to my earlier tests, I'm going to issue a warning for scripting abuse."

You laugh out loud!

You say, "Go fuck yourself."
You say, "I responded to your shitty script tests."
>
Mazreth says, "That's warning # 2 for vulgarity..."
>
You say, "You could pull logs on everyone and give them a warning violation for depositing silver every 30 minutes."
>
You have just been awarded -98 experience points.
> say We aren't in public.
You say, "We aren't in public."
>
Mazreth says, "Public or not, You do not have the right to speak to me in that manner."
>
Mazreth says, "The warning is not based entirely on silver withdraws, that merely pointed out that you were in fact not idle all night as you suggested."

You say, "You sent me 2 messages total."
>
Mazreth says, "Incorrect."

You say, "Of a faerie."

You say, "And then 3-4 more 10 minutes later."

You say, "Which i responded to immediately."
>
Mazreth says, "Incorrect, I sent you 11 messages some in bold some not."

You ask, "You do stupid OOC script checks and then get mad when OOC actions occur?"

You say, "Why should I sit down in combat."

You say, "Or talk to a faerie."

You say, "It doesn't matter how many you send. Because according to you it doesnt matter if i passed or not."
>
Mazreth says, "I will send you to the scripting limbo now that you may read policy. If you have any furher questions I can set you pu with an SGM referrral or you may write feedback."

You say, "It's cool, I'll be cancelling."

You say, "Enjoy."

[Kalishar]

My opinion is probably pretty lenient on scripting in this game so I don't agree with a lot of the policy changes and stuff.

Having said that; Haldrik has proven himself time and time again to be a douche so yeah... whatever.

[Haldrik]

I agree your actions have caused a lot of this. You can count yourself as infamous, like the guy that got skinning nerfed in certain areas. ::CONGRATS::



Lol. If only the world revolved around me. He was aware of kill switches long before that meeting. And running back to town hardly qualifies as a kill switch. Lots of people run back to town in the middle of scripting for various reason.

I personally know people who have actual kill switches and have gotten away with it 10+ times before the policy change. So, sorry to say, it wasn't me.

But you are missing the real point, just AFK script without a kill switch and you won't get a mech warning. It's pretty pointless because AFK scripters will just take out the kill switch. It's really only going to hurt people who are scripting manually and something messes up their internet / connection and they idle.

Stupid policy is stupid. Keep defending it.

[zzentar]

But you are missing the real point, just AFK script without a kill switch and you won't get a mech warning. It's pretty pointless because AFK scripters will just take out the kill switch. It's really only going to hurt people who are scripting manually and something messes up their internet / connection and they idle.

Stupid policy is stupid. Keep defending it.


I don't need to defend it. I have worked for many years to get where i am in game. AFK scripters don't bother me much because they make creatures generate faster. And once again you pick part of a sentence from officials and say it here so that people think you are the GS Ranger, here to protect everyone from the bad GMs.

this is your version:
It's really only going to hurt people who are scripting manually and something messes up their internet / connection and they idle.

the official version:
>Yup, except if that occurs somewhere in the middle of a script check. Let's say hes hunting for 5 minutes and then gets the odd uplink for 30 seconds while he is being "evaluated AFK script checking." You say hey wow, hes been depositing silvers every 30 minutes for 8 hours. Oh hey, he types all his commands correctly. Wow, he is flawless in his execution! He is averaging 2 commands per second. Must be AFK!

None of this is the case, or how we determine checks. So in your example, this would not be how a check is performed. It's not simple. There is nothing left to an assumption.

>>So BAM! Script check, you send 1 single faerie to nibble his ear. No response. In fact, you don't bother sending any other faeries in. 5 minutes later he has 2 warnings. Poor bastard.

Again, no. Two warning individuals are people we can clearly see using a kill switch. Clearly. No doubts.

>>Not really. GMs check all the time. Bound to grab someone. Especially since they apparently AFK script check every person who is reported by someone.

And again, no. We investigate and evaluate situations. But we don't script check everyone.

And judging by a couple remarks here and on the PC, there isn't a firm grasp on the inner workings. Tons and tons of speculations. Not that I'm going into the inner workings. But a lot of people just have no idea what they are talking about.

Point here being, is if you're not being talked to on a regular basis, most of this isn't even a concern.

[rolfard]

Are you saying that the AFK script policy isn't going to harm any non-AFK scripters? Because I think you are saying that!

[zzentar]

I did say that and I stand behind it. I asked point blank to wyrom on reddit about movement scripts. He said no one is going to check you if you are just travelling from TV to landing. He said that unless you are spamming the screen moving in and out of a room, its ok. you are not learning or gaining exp by moving from TV to landing. If that were the case, Id have been booted long ago. The sad part is by using ;go2 we do miss a lot and many GMs have expressed this fact. We no longer see what is going on around us and simply fly by invasions or start of invasions ect ect.

I will guarantee this one fact;
Frontier days a few years ago, when ::REAL GEMS:: could be found, not a single person was using ;go2.

~Zz

[Haldrik]

>> Again, no. Two warning individuals are people we can clearly see using a kill switch. Clearly. No doubts.

Point here being, is if you're not being talked to on a regular basis, most of this isn't even a concern.

You are giving the benefit of doubt to a GM interpreting policy. That already makes you stupid. They aren't fucking omnipotent. They can't see our monitors. There is absolutely zero way for them to tell the difference between what happened to me and what happened to that guy who's computer "stopped taking inputs." They can only make a guess based on prior actions and context. But we also know they give 2 shits about that. Thus, relying on GM judgment for a chance at _2 warnings_.

And again, you are missing the point. Any scripter who chooses to AFK script will simply remove their kill triggers. If someone is not sophisticated enough to know about this rule then they probably won't have kill triggers.

So the only people left are 1) scripters with bad connections.

Of course, they could be using it as a deterrent, but if they are using it as such they need to writer clearer policy. But I'm not sure why they would start now.


I don't need to defend it. I have worked for many years to get where i am in game.

Lol. I can spend $300 and instantly have a 100 level character. This isn't an argument you should be making.

[Haldrik]

I will guarantee this one fact;
Frontier days a few years ago, when ::REAL GEMS:: could be found, not a single person was using ;go2.

~Zz

What does this even mean? Or contribute? The fact that actual content stops people from using scripts?

The reason go2 is used is because movement is pointless. Why would people not use movement scripts because of the remote possibility of an invasion or an event?

[zzentar]

Lol. I can spend $300 and instantly have a 100 level character. This isn't an argument you should be making.

The fact that you think that shows how little you know about me.

[Haldrik]

The fact that you think that shows how little you know about me.

Are you delirious? You made the argument that "You worked hard to get where you are" as some sort of justification for insanely stupid and unclear policy. I'm saying your hard work is shit and can be bypassed without any scripting involved.

And for the record, I don't want to know you. You are the special kind of ignorant I like to avoid.

[ZeP]

God bless the settings.. this went from 36 pages to 2 when I logged in.

[Orp]

The fact that this thread is 36 pages is supercalifragilisticexpialidociously insane...

[Methais]

The fact that this thread is 36 pages is supercalifragilisticexpialidociously insane...


http://youtu.be/GlhOUyy4wbs

[Soulance]

There is a difference. It should be easy for you to identify. If you can't, that may be one of the reasons GS is suffering.
I appreciate your red feedback. Even though this comes today from a post on page three of this thread, I'm sure it warrants value so I am giving it the life it deserves instead of being hidden on my Rep page so that others may see that I am the cause of the downfall of Gemstone. Interestingly, I have really only been back for less than two years, but I guess my impact is massively felt. Never knew a little ole (and poorly spec'd) Cleric could do so much damage! It is true that the Landing burned to the ground shortly after I came and the undead were unleashed on Illy soon there after...

Hmmmm, you may be right...

7099

penis pot pie potato pancakes please pleaded Patricia's penguin
Yes! Now it all makes sense.