Soul Ward (319)

[Allereli]

I'm not in a position to post all the relevant information in a formal announcement, but to get you started:

* It negates the first attack (physical, spell, or maneuver) from each opponent (creature or player) you engage.
* Spiritual Lore, Blessings provides for a chance to negate a second attack from the same opponent.
* INFUSE SPIRIT will reset the entire room such that it can negate the next attacks from all present opponents again. It normally cost 1 spirit, but you can use this ability under most status effects (stunnded, roundtime, etc), but at the cost of 2 spirit. You can experience a spirit death if you overextend yourself.

Effectively, this spell prevents a Cleric from walking into a room and suddenly being overwhelmed from an initial ambush or first round of attacks.

This spell looks awesome. I'm going to use the shit out of it via scroll or blessed gems if possible.

[Kithus]

Also, the ability to negate an attack is not guaranteed. It's a hidden warding check with the target getting -25 TD. So against like level opponents, it's extremely reliable, but don't expect it to work in opponents that are significantly more powerful than you.

GameMaster Estild


Still awesome but maybe not as good on scrolls now.

[Allereli]

Still awesome but maybe not as good on scrolls now.

even with -25 I'll still be pretty good.

[Methais]

I'll be selling plenty of chrisms with this.

Not sure if it's bugged right now, but my cleric has literally been invincible to everything so far.

Ryjex was doing some testing with my cleric earlier with rapid fire e-wave...


Ryjex gestures at you.
>
Ryjex gestures at you.
>
Ryjex gestures at you.
>
Ryjex gestures at you.
>
Ryjex gestures at you.
>
Ryjex gestures at you.
>
Ryjex gestures at you.
>
Ryjex gestures at you.
Nothing happens.

SEND[Liia] Please stop what you're doing for a moment

Methais gestures at Mellchiah.
The evanescent shield shrouding Mellchiah flares to life and absorbs the essence of the spell, dissipating it harmlessly.

^ BOIL

Wyrom asks, "What spell were you casting?"
>
Wyrom says, "Something CRAZY was happening."

Mellchiah says, "Soul Ward."
>
Mellchiah says, "He was casting e-wave."
>
Melivn just came down a cobblestone road.
>
Melivn just went southeast.
>
Wyrom says, "The combination was doing something super bad."
>
Mellchiah says, "Weird."
>
Wyrom exclaims, "Hopefully it will be fixed soon!"
>
You lose your extra internal fortitude.
>
Wyrom exclaims, "Thanks for letting me know!"
>
Mellchiah grins.
>
Mellchiah nods.
>
You notice your blood flow go back to normal.
>
GameMaster Wyrom shambles away, leaving no trace of his whereabouts.

[Kaldonis]

Looks really cool and in some ways not too different (in my naive mind) from some type of version of 1650 we are discussing (not Estild, just players). I actually almost was going to suggest something about infusing spirit about three seconds ago for that discussion.

And yeah, seems like the insane action for anyone that can use it. Like clerics or scroll crazy sorcerers.

[Luftstreitkräfte]

my necro lore bane cleric just creamed his pants

[Ryjex]

That wasn't even rapid fire. I would cast at him and it would let me gesture but the spell stayed prepped until eventually it failed a hindrance check. I also did 4 hours of 2nd floor nelemar hunting and only one cast even got through against me. Every other cast was just "xxx gestures at you" but nothing following (CS, bolt or whatever based spells all did nothing)

[Methais]

I'm sure it'll be fixed/nerfed into the ground soon enough.

[Androidpk]

Sounds op

[Fallen]

Glad Clerics are finally getting their sub-20 spell list fleshed out.

[Lady Sylvan]

So they got rid of Divine wraith.. that very neat aoe spell? Lets hope its worth it.

[Roblar]

I'm not really in the clerics folder, but krakiipedia has it as moved to 335

So, not gone.

[Aganii]

So, barring fumbles on the hidden warding roll, it will be almost impossible for anything to get a hit on a cleric now? Ill take it. Definitely makes think about going empty handed for max channel bonus now.

[Soulance]

So, barring fumbles on the hidden warding roll, it will be almost impossible for anything to get a hit on a cleric now? Ill take it. Definitely makes think about going empty handed for max channel bonus now.
From the sound of it, things are needing some tweaking. I think it's intended to ward off a first hit from each creature, and then possibly a second depending on Blessings Lore if I recall correctly. At this time, it's caused a bit of chaos from what I saw so I'm sure they'll need to keep working on it.

There seems to be a brief period before the defense drops after the first time to absorb an attack from another creature, but I'm not sure about that just yet.

[Soulance]

So they got rid of Divine wraith.. that very neat aoe spell? Lets hope its worth it.
As mentioned, they just moved it and changed a few things about it. Depending on if you're grouped/if you incant vs cast at <target> can make the spell do some crazy stuff. Before I realized what it did, I accidentally shot a bolt of lightning through someone who was passing by in the room during an invasion. Not a good day.

[Fallen]

So the creature/person attacking the cleric has to pass a warding check of the Cleric's CS versus their TD with a -25 modifier? Is that right?

[Aganii]

So the creature/person attacking the cleric has to pass a warding check of the Cleric's CS versus their TD with a -25 modifier? Is that right?

Yep. Basically guaranteed in like level situations. Im still waiting on a nerf of some sort because near-immunity from the first offensive action (more with flares or spirit infusion) seems really good.

[Methais]

I wonder what the going rate is for chrisms with this spell blessed in it.

Whatever it is, I'm selling them.

[Tgo01]

I wonder what the going rate is for chrisms with this spell blessed in it.

Whatever it is, I'm selling them.

1 silver per 10.

I'll take a thousand.

[Tenlaar]

Did I mention that I have over 300 orb gems worth 3k+ I'm looking to sell?

[Fallen]

If you attack the cleric and fail the warding, do you incur RT?

[Methais]

If you attack the cleric and fail the warding, do you incur RT?

You go demonic.

[Fallen]

You go demonic.

www.play.net/gs4/cservice/perma (http://www.play.net/gs4/cservice/perma)restoral_policy.asp

$$$$ > 319

[gs4-PauperSid]

raise diam (with 319 imbeded 2 charges, raise activator)
You raise your uncut diamond skyward!
1d100: 30 + Modifiers: 163 == 193

You lose control of the uncut diamond and a bolt of energy strikes you!
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to your weapon arm.
You are stunned for 1 round!
The uncut diamond suddenly disintegrates!

Le Fail. Damn spiritual magics!
(71-train wizard)

Armor Use..........................| 25 5
Shield Use.........................| 173 73
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 50 10
Physical Fitness...................| 173 73
Arcane Symbols.....................| 246 146
Magic Item Use.....................| 246 146
Spell Aiming.......................| 246 146
Harness Power......................| 172 72
Elemental Mana Control.............| 175 75
Elemental Lore - Fire..............| 50 10
Survival...........................| 172 72
Perception.........................| 172 72
Climbing...........................| 150 50
Swimming...........................| 150 50
First Aid..........................| 175 75

Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 52

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 36

Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 68

[rolfard]

Did you see if you had a spell prepped already?

[gs4-PauperSid]

Hrm, tis possible was using rapidfire during the hunt. There's hope!

Yup,

Problem solved.

You raise your uncut diamond skyward!
1d100: 93 + Modifiers: 152 == 245

Drawing deep from the well of your soul, you summon forth a thread of your essence and weave it into an evanescent shield to shroud your form.
The uncut diamond suddenly disintegrates!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
I>

I>spell active


Soul Ward .......................... 1:46:58

[Candor]

I'll have to see if I have 319 stored on a scroll anywhere.

This is one of the things I'm good at - storing unusual scrolls with limited use. Anyone want to buy a charge item scroll :)?

[TheLastShamurai]

Every time this spell activated on my Cleric, I think of that old Ninja Turtle line when the dude tries to strike one of the turtles when he has his head inside the shell: "Man I love being a turtle!"

[Fallen]

Is it confirmed the spell is not found on scrolls normally?

[Allereli]

Is it confirmed the spell is not found on scrolls normally?

it is found on scrolls

[Fallen]

Wow. Has it been effective for you at cap, A?

[Mobius1]

I tested it out in CvC, and can say that it's pretty much laughably OP in that department.

So much so, that if it's not changed, I'll sadly have to alter the rules of our next pit fights, because of it.

[Fallen]

I tested it out in CvC, and can say that it's pretty much laughably OP in that department.

So much so, that if it's not changed, I'll sadly have to alter the rules of our next pit fights, because of it.

I can imagine. The only equalizer is that everyone can use it. Sucks for squares and semi's, but Sorcerers and Empaths will get decent use out of it. I'm honestly surprised they had it work in CvC.

[Allereli]

I can imagine. The only equalizer is that everyone can use it. Sucks for squares and semi's, but Sorcerers and Empaths will get decent use out of it. I'm honestly surprised they had it work in CvC.

I'm pretty sure CvC is not considered at all when it comes to development

[Methais]

I'm pretty sure CvC is not considered at all when it comes to development

Unless the spell is useless against critters, then it's super OP in PvP.

[Mobius1]

I'm pretty sure CvC is not considered at all when it comes to development

It specifically says in the spell announcement that it works on players. So they certainly took that into account.

CvC may not be important to everyone, but whether people want to admit it or not, it has a place in this game, and with this change, it was obviously taken into account (Obviously by a GM that wants clerics to be OP in CvC.).

[Allereli]

It specifically says in the spell announcement that it works on players. So they certainly took that into account.

CvC may not be important to everyone, but whether people want to admit it or not, it has a place in this game, and with this change, it was obviously taken into account (Obviously by a GM that wants clerics to be OP in CvC.).

saying it works on players is different from altering the spell in anyway to account for being OP in a matchup

[Riltus]

It specifically says in the spell announcement that it works on players. So they certainly took that into account.

CvC may not be important to everyone, but whether people want to admit it or not, it has a place in this game, and with this change, it was obviously taken into account (Obviously by a GM that wants clerics to be OP in CvC.).

Untargeted:

>pre 709
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Quake...
Your spell is ready.
>cast
You gesture.
You concentrate on projecting the illusion of a violent quake.
<CLERIC> loses his balance and falls over.
Suddenly, the ground seems steadier.

Targeted:

>pre 709
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Quake...
Your spell is ready.
>cast <CLERIC>
You gesture at <CLERIC>.
The evanescent shield shrouding <CLERIC> flares to life and absorbs the essence of the spell, dissipating it harmlessly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

The untargeted version doesn't activate the hidden warding roll. It will still activate on the next attack but at least it has the potential to knockdown the target and place it in RT.

Mark

[Mobius1]

Yeah, there are certainly ways around it. But it still is a crazy advantage.

[Riltus]

An example of another work-around:

If you're in voln, you can sym sleep <target> which incurs no RT but will activate the hidden roll, and follow-up with an immediate attack. It's not ideal but it is still doable.

Mark

[azim17]

I was curious about this with mwave....havent been IG to check myself. Anyone tested it?

[Methais]

I was curious about this with mwave....havent been IG to check myself. Anyone tested it?

Probably the same as Quake. If it's untargeted, it'll hit. If it's targeted, they'll l33t their way through it.

[Mobius1]

Aha!!! Been wracking my brain since yesterday for some sort of attack that doesn't have RT or CT. Voln ftw!

[Allereli]

I've made an update to Soul Ward that will resolve a few bugs and weird interactions with creatures that would automatically trigger when casting at them. Specifically, if a creature has immunity against spells (like ithzir fading, Slipper Mind is active, etc), the spell will now ward them without triggering those effects. In addition, temporary effects that aid in warding (like Ensorcell's +CS flare) won't be used up.

A few spells have also be updated to ensure Soul Ward correctly protects against the initial attack, including Elemental Wave (410), Quake (709), Tremors (909), and Meteor Swarm (525). Open cast Implosion (720) is next on my list. If anyone notices any other spell or ability, that is initiated by a player or creature, that Soul Ward is not protecting against, let me know and I'll investigate.

Amusingly, I thought I would share this...

>The burning projectiles bounce harmlessly off your evanescent shield.

GameMaster Estild

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Clerics/Cleric%20Spells/view/842

[Dhuul2]

It's not that great.

[Lower Dragonsclaw, Wooded Hills - 423]
The ground shifts from flat forest to jagged hillside, the trees thinning out as the ground gets rougher and rockier. The oaks disappear farther up the slope, leaving the modwirs to dominate the hill. You also see a gnarled oily black tree, a gnarled oily black tree, a gnarled oily black tree and a gnarled oily black tree.
Obvious paths: east, up
>
A gnarled branch from an oily black tree suddenly lashes out, slashing you!
... 5 points of damage!
Deft slash across chest draws blood!
You take a deep breath.
>

>spell active

You currently have the following active spells:
Soul Ward .......................... 2:08:37

[Allereli]

It's not that great.

you have to be able to ward the opponent with cleric circle CS in a hidden roll

[Dhuul2]

It helps against the Demonwall drain, which is caused by a creature, like Roblar says below,


Suddenly, small writhing tendrils of shadow reach out towards you!
The evanescent shield shrouding you flares to life and thickens to create a substantial buffer around you.
You deftly avoid the writhing tendrils of shadow.

>prep 109
You gesture while calling upon the lesser spirits to aid you with the Dispel Invisibility spell...
Your spell is ready.
>cast
You gesture.
The shadows melt away to reveal a huge shadowy primordial!
You don't find anyone invisible.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


I was being sarcastic. I usually complain about the new cleric spells but this one is definitely quite powerful. I don't think Clerics need this spell badly, but it's certainly going to help.

[Roblar]

The Demonwall drain comes from a critter (with TD). I think the attack is hidden while they are invisible/hidden, I forgot if a roll shows when you reveal them and they do it.

The trees are an automatic type thingie, no TD likely to roll against.

[Methais]

you have to be able to ward the opponent with cleric circle CS in a hidden roll

I wonder if MIU ranks have any effect on your CS when a non cleric uses this from a scroll or blessed gem. Otherwise I don't see how most non-American could make much use of this spell, though it seems to be pretty effective no matter who is using it.

[Fallen]

I wonder if MIU ranks have any effect on your CS when a non cleric uses this from a scroll or blessed gem. Otherwise I don't see how most non-American could make much use of this spell, though it seems to be pretty effective no matter who is using it.

Non-American? Lol.

[Mobius1]

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Clerics/Cleric%20Spells/view/842

Wow, so basically instead of nerfing the skill for CvC, like they should, they are instead making it even more OP.

[Allereli]

Wow, so basically instead of nerfing the skill for CvC, like they should, they are instead making it even more OP.

why would they nerf a spell for CvC?

[Haldrik]

Wow, so basically instead of nerfing the skill for CvC, like they should, they are instead making it even more OP.

Also... who gives a shit? It protects the 1st and maybe 2 strike. Cast a low mana spell first then follow up?

[Mobius1]

Also... who gives a shit? It protects the 1st and maybe 2 strike. Cast a low mana spell first then follow up?

That puts you in 3 seconds of CT. 3 seconds the cleric has to either reapply it, or attack you.

And why wouldn't they need to nerf a skill because it is too powerful in CvC? CvC is a part of the game and always has been. Pickpocketing, CvC events, the challenge verb, etc..

If you can't see the negative potential of 319 even on players who aren't really concerned with CvC, maybe you should think about it a bit more. You are not everyone.

[Haldrik]

That puts you in 3 seconds of CT. 3 seconds the cleric has to either reapply it, or attack you.

And why wouldn't they need to nerf a skill because it is too powerful in CvC? CvC is a part of the game and always has been. Pickpocketing, CvC events, the challenge verb, etc..

If you can't see the negative potential of 319 even on players who aren't really concerned with CvC, maybe you should think about it a bit more. You are not everyone.

Use a CMAN/multicast spell first? Dispel?

So... it sounds like your real problem is that combat is resolved in first strikes in certain situations?

[Androidpk]

They have said before they do not balance for pvp.

[Haldrik]

That puts you in 3 seconds of CT. 3 seconds the cleric has to either reapply it, or attack you.

And why wouldn't they need to nerf a skill because it is too powerful in CvC? CvC is a part of the game and always has been. Pickpocketing, CvC events, the challenge verb, etc..

If you can't see the negative potential of 319 even on players who aren't really concerned with CvC, maybe you should think about it a bit more. You are not everyone.

cast from defensive stance? Try using tactics instead of "omg world is going to end."

[Haldrik]

That puts you in 3 seconds of CT. 3 seconds the cleric has to either reapply it, or attack you.

And why wouldn't they need to nerf a skill because it is too powerful in CvC? CvC is a part of the game and always has been. Pickpocketing, CvC events, the challenge verb, etc..

If you can't see the negative potential of 319 even on players who aren't really concerned with CvC, maybe you should think about it a bit more. You are not everyone.

Cast/ run away? You can still move in CT.

[Haldrik]

That puts you in 3 seconds of CT. 3 seconds the cleric has to either reapply it, or attack you.

And why wouldn't they need to nerf a skill because it is too powerful in CvC? CvC is a part of the game and always has been. Pickpocketing, CvC events, the challenge verb, etc..

If you can't see the negative potential of 319 even on players who aren't really concerned with CvC, maybe you should think about it a bit more. You are not everyone.

Use 1 mana spell, cast/run away. Laugh when they use 19 mana to reapply?

[Fallen]

Use 1 mana spell, cast/run away. Laugh when they use 19 mana to reapply?

Yeah, that's much better than killing your target.

[crb]

Use 1 mana spell, cast/run away. Laugh when they use 19 mana to reapply?

The spell stays up doesn't it? They don't need to reapply.

No one should really be surprised, Clerics have always been a pet favorite. This seems like quite a, well, god mode. If you're hunting things that don't swarm and can kill quickly, it is functional god mode.

As for CvC.... ideas..

1. mushroom spores,petrified phase hands, other such untraditional fiddle faddle? (I sell phase hands in pshops, EVERYONE GO BUY THEM)
2. rapidfire/mstrike
3. entwined wand
4. Just make sure your TD is high.

[Mobius1]

Use a CMAN/multicast spell first? Dispel?

So... it sounds like your real problem is that combat is resolved in first strikes in certain situations?

Yes, in duels the first strike usually decides the fight.

Of course there are ways around 319 if you prepare, but that doesn't make it not overpowered. It just means you have to not only know you are going to be fighting a cleric, but that you use certain imbeds (or Voln skill, as was pointed out.).

But for some people, like myself, even haste isn't enough, unless my latency is bad. 1 second is all I need to win.



cast from defensive stance? Try using tactics instead of "omg world is going to end."


I'm guessing that you don't duel often, if ever? Please don't go making assumptions about my ability to use tactics. Also, don't put words in my mouth, that I never so much as implied.



Cast/ run away? You can still move in CT.


So can they.



They have said before they do not balance for pvp.


I see. Then why are they making changes to the skill that are 100% for CvC purposes? I don't know a lot of critters that cast 925, do you?

[Mobius1]

The spell stays up doesn't it? They don't need to reapply.

No one should really be surprised, Clerics have always been a pet favorite. This seems like quite a, well, god mode. If you're hunting things that don't swarm and can kill quickly, it is functional god mode.

Yeah, I didn't even really get into how good it is in PvE, too.

Running through voids (Or voids a room over), crawler burrows, getting hit by an attack as you run through a room, etc. (stuff that everyone else has to worry about.), clerics won't be affected by anymore. It's pretty much god mode, as you said.

It's like a teenager is making the decisions now. "Clerics have the power of the gods so they should be all powerful!"

And the GM even straight up said he wants clerics to be invincible in CvC, on the officials. I can only hope that was in jest...

One other thing to note, that I'm not sure people realize - 319 works independently of each attacker. It negates the first attack of EVERY attacker.

[Allereli]

you thought he was serious?

[Androidpk]

Yeah, I didn't even really get into how good it is in PvE, too.

Running through voids (Or voids a room over), crawler burrows, getting hit by an attack as you run through a room, etc. (stuff that everyone else has to worry about.), clerics won't be affected by anymore. It's pretty much god mode, as you said.

It's like a teenager is making the decisions now. "Clerics have the power of the gods so they should be all powerful!"

And the GM even straight up said he wants clerics to be invincible in CvC, on the officials. I can only hope that was in jest...

One other thing to note, that I'm not sure people realize - 319 works independently of each attacker. It negates the first attack of EVERY attacker.

Why are you bitching about an awesome spell?

[Gelston]

Wait, so what CS/TD formula does it use? My wizard had a 569 CS, and most capped clerics, even with the 25, wouldn't have stood a chance. Does it make your cast have a hidden spirit roll where it uses the caster spirit CS regardless of the nature of the spell? If so.. Kinda weird.. Seems to me it'd still be elemental vs spiritual no matter what.

[Roblar]

You attack whoever has the spell on, it's their clerical CS versus your TD - 25

[Gelston]

You attack whoever has the spell on, it's their clerical CS versus your TD - 25
Oh. Really don't need the -25 in there do you?

[Mobius1]

you thought he was serious?

Please explain to me why clerics were so underpowered that they needed 319 (And soon 320).

Like clerics had such huge survivability issues...

[Whirlin]

I haven't been hit once by kiramon maneuvers since I got 319. I'd say it's incredibly overpowered... 540 is nothing compared to this.

[Hightower]

If rapid fire were a defensive spell it would be 319. GodMode. Plain and simple.

~Taverkin

[Whirlin]

If rapid fire were a defensive spell it would be 319. GodMode. Plain and simple.

~Taverkin
Agreed.

But a key difference being potential utility to non-native casting classes. If 319 had a flat activation rate, I'd consider it comparable cause it could them be imbedded into gems, or cast upon others, etc.

[Riltus]

Please explain to me why clerics were so underpowered that they needed 319 (And soon 320).

Like clerics had such huge survivability issues...

Why would clerics receive such a seemingly O/P spell?

One reason might be to incentivize more clerics to perform rescues by providing a brief safety net against like-level foes.

Another reason is to piss LIFE GIVER MURDERERS off.

Mark

[Allereli]

Please explain to me why clerics were so underpowered that they needed 319 (And soon 320).

Like clerics had such huge survivability issues...

I don't play my cleric other than alchemy and raising. I just know it's been said that they do not balance professions based on PvP or CvC. don't know why you're so upset about it, as far as I'm concerned if it's available via blessings or scrolls, everyone has access to it

[Hightower]

Why would clerics receive such a seemingly O/P spell?

One reason might be to incentivize more clerics to perform rescues by providing a brief safety net against like-level foes.

Another reason is to piss LIFE GIVER MURDERERS off.

Mark

If that were the case, they would have been better off if the spell protected them from all attacks for a short period of time - enough to perform a rescue - and then had a cooldown period of a few minutes. This would still function as an excellent "Oh shit!" button as well, without providing virtual immunity to all forms of attack in a normal hunting scenario. I couldn't care less about PvP, personally.

~Taverkin

[Fallen]

All pures deserve to have their level 1-20 spell lists completed. It is terrible that they've gone this long without it. That being said, the spell is appears to be extremely powerful in CvC. But so is implosion. So are CMANs with feras weapons. Gemstone just isn't balanced for CvC. Clerics just now have their OP ability to add to the pile.

As for PvE, the -25 pushdown not being tied to a skill seems odd. Why not pushdown based on religion, second chance based on blessings? I dunno, that's for the GMs to decide. I doubt they'll nerf it after the fact. Then again, look at 719, pretty damned powerful in PvE.

[Silvean]

That being said, the spell is appears to be extremely powerful in CvC. But so is implosion. So are CMANs with feras weapons. Gemstone just isn't balanced for CvC. Clerics just now have their OP ability to add to the pile.

The other overpowered abilities do not alter the truism that the first to strike in an attack is the winner. Clerics now have a lot of lead time to escape or retaliate. C'est la vie.

[crb]

Compare it to 712. 712 requires a ton of lore training to activate, and even then it tops out at below 100%.

319 activates every single time on a first strike, and you don't even have to be stunned first.

[Androidpk]

It does seem a little strange that the spell lasts for so long. 1619, faiths shield, is 30 seconds, or a max of 70 seconds with 99 paladin spell ranks.

[Fallen]

Compare it to 712. 712 requires a ton of lore training to activate, and even then it tops out at below 100%.

319 activates every single time on a first strike, and you don't even have to be stunned first.

I would imagine they would argue that 712 also provides a significant defensive benefit in the form of DS/TD. Not a very sound argument as our defenses wouldn't be balanced without it and it opens us to being dispelled and losing a significant portion of our defense with just 1 spell, but the fact remains the spell still provides DS/TD/ and utility.

They would also argue that a 19th level spell on a closed circle is going to be orders of magnitude more powerful than a 12th level spell on a closed circle.

Finally, they would also argue that Clerics do not have a room-wide maneuver based disabler like E-wave or quake. Yes, you can get that embedded, but that isn't taken into account when looking at the core abilities of a profession. They don't have the ability to quickly and reliably lock down the room as other pures do. I wouldn't be shocked if Empaths don't get some sort of boost in this department, either by A. An e-wave type room lockdown or B some sort of semi-OP defensive option that allows a high rate of initial survival from attacks.

[Silvean]

Clerics are also receiving the gun kata in the next update.

[Fallen]

All that being said, the 19th level spell has a healthy duration, 100% activation rate against everything in the room, a big TD pushdown, the ability to be reset normally and even while disabled, and has additional lore-based benefits. I could actually see this as a 40th or even a 50th level spell in its current form.

Speaking as a Sorcerer, i'm definitely jelly. But meh, like I said, Clerics lacking an e-wave type spell is a huge, huge drawback. They've also gone a long time without having a full spell list for 1-20. They also are important for the health of the game (Resurrections, Blessings, etc).

We'll see how it shakes out. I'm just glad they allow non-Clerics to play with it via gems and scrolls. I'm sure you can ward Scouts with it, Virilneus. That should be useful in of itself.

Finally, I think its telling that there are no Clerics in this thread telling us to fuck off for saying this spell is OP. Why? There just aren't that many Clerics around, or at least people who have Clerics as their main.

[gs4-PauperSid]

Fine. Fuck off, Fallen.

(Goes back to his gun kata practice)

;)

[Methais]

I wish 540 was like this. All we get is 10%. :(

Good thing I have a cleric to bless gems!

[Aganii]

316 is probably as good as e-wave once you have the CS for it. Not a maneuver but stunning/binding the room is pretty powerful.

[Archigeek]

It's OP! Happy now? I laugh at how this compares (favorably) to the spells that were pared back during growing pains.

[Allereli]

Re: Krakii's post

You summed it up pretty well. As many others have noted, we don't balance around CvC. I made a number of posts in this thread in jest, but it probably just added unnecessary fuel to the flames.

GameMaster Estild

.

[Danical]

Why would clerics receive such a seemingly O/P spell?

One reason might be to incentivize more clerics to perform rescues by providing a brief safety net against like-level foes.

Another reason is to piss LIFE GIVER MURDERERS off.

Mark

Their developer is active. E-Lore Review Real Soon Now™.

[Androidpk]

Their developer is active. E-Lore Review Real Soon Now™.

Right after the incoming nerf to haste.

[Danical]

319 is incredible for preventing insta-gibs which are the most frustrating thing in all of GS.

1) Queue 5 move east commands
2) Hit second room of queue
3) Get ambushed by ithzir scout that does 1 point of damage but with a rank 7 lit crit to the head.
4) Uninstall.

I'd like to see this kind of passive ability extended to other classes in a more diminished capacity so as to smooth out the curve of wtfery that comes from a lack of engagement system. Dying instantly to something you had no way of actively preventing is the biggest downfall of the GS combat system.


Ex:
Name: Mind Void
PReq: Slippy Mind Rank 3
Cost: Passive
CMPs: 20
Desc: While the Slippery Mind martial stance is active you have a chance to ignore a CS spell directed at you. The chance to ignore the CS spell is 100% for spells cast by creatures up to 5 levels above your level. For each level greater than 5 the chance decreases by 10%. This ability may trigger only once every 20 seconds.

[Fallen]

I guess an engagement system would remove a lot of insta-gib deaths, but nobody wants that crap.

[Danical]

I guess an engagement system would remove a lot of insta-gib deaths, but nobody wants that crap.

I'm certainly not advocating for an engagement system, just a means to offset some of the byproducts of not having one.

[Methais]

Right after the incoming nerf to haste.

And Rapid Fire from the sound of it on the officials.

And probably Immolate too just to give wizards the full cactus dildo treatment.

[Mobius1]

319 is incredible for preventing insta-gibs which are the most frustrating thing in all of GS.

1) Queue 5 move east commands
2) Hit second room of queue
3) Get ambushed by ithzir scout that does 1 point of damage but with a rank 7 lit crit to the head.
4) Uninstall.

I'd like to see this kind of passive ability extended to other classes in a more diminished capacity so as to smooth out the curve of wtfery that comes from a lack of engagement system. Dying instantly to something you had no way of actively preventing is the biggest downfall of the GS combat system.

Yeah, welcome to Gemstone. It's a danger that everyone has to face. Why should clerics be the exception?

Clerics now don't have to worry about bandit traps - the one thing that made bandits difficult. In fact, I think bandit traps is one of the better things introduced to Gemstone in a long time, since it actually makes grouping up with people beneficial! You know how many relationships and friendships have been formed thanks to this one simple system?

But now clerics can just mindlessly solo them, without fear of death, and thus don't really have the incentive to group up.

And I know, as a rift hunter, two huge dangers are walking into rooms with voids, and rift crawlers. 319 now makes you immune to both. No more random crawler burrows, or if you have one burrow on you that you were attacking, just refresh 319 and you are golden. Congratulations, you have now been granted the EZ mode version of the rift, while everyone else has to play on normal mode.

[Methais]

Yeah, welcome to Gemstone. It's a danger that everyone has to face. Why should clerics be the exception?

Clerics now don't have to worry about bandit traps - the one thing that made bandits difficult. In fact, I think bandit traps is one of the better things introduced to Gemstone in a long time, since it actually makes grouping up with people beneficial! You know how many relationships and friendships have been formed thanks to this one simple system?

But now clerics can just mindlessly solo them, without fear of death, and thus don't really have the incentive to group up.

And I know, as a rift hunter, two huge dangers are walking into rooms with voids, and rift crawlers. 319 now makes you immune to both. No more random crawler burrows, or if you have one burrow on you that you were attacking, just refresh 319 and you are golden. Congratulations, you have now been granted the EZ mode version of the rift, while everyone else has to play on normal mode.

People act like clerics can't bless this spell into a gem for anyone to use or something.

This spell alone should (not necessarily will, but whatever) increase the value of blank MR gems.

[Fallen]

It's based off clerical CS. Empath's and sorcerers get a very slight usage from it. for everyone else it would be completely useless.

[Danical]

Yeah, welcome to Gemstone. It's a danger that everyone has to face. Why should clerics be the exception?

Soul Ward is hopefully the first of many changes toward minimizing insta-gibs. Being Insta-gibbed is bad design; it removes lack of control from the player. A player should die from making bad decisions. Deaths caused without any input from the player is just terribul (http://youtu.be/3hIqesIVX-c?t=4s). The counter-argument would be that the player can strategically minimized deaths (e.g., train in PF, CM to mitigate bandit traps), but even then that's a general strategic decision and not a decision made in combat. The aforementioned bandit scenario might serve as a good example highlighting the difference between strategy and tactics.



Clerics now don't have to worry about bandit traps - the one thing that made bandits difficult. In fact, I think bandit traps is one of the better things introduced to Gemstone in a long time, since it actually makes grouping up with people beneficial! You know how many relationships and friendships have been formed thanks to this one simple system?

But now clerics can just mindlessly solo them, without fear of death, and thus don't really have the incentive to group up.

I disagree that bandit traps are good. I think they're bad design. See above. The same could be said about group hunting in any scenario where you face consequences from any action you aren't able to avoid.


And I know, as a rift hunter, two huge dangers are walking into rooms with voids, and rift crawlers. 319 now makes you immune to both. No more random crawler burrows, or if you have one burrow on you that you were attacking, just refresh 319 and you are golden. Congratulations, you have now been granted the EZ mode version of the rift, while everyone else has to play on normal mode.

Alternatively, for crawlers, the player can just move to a room with no creatures and cast Minor Sanctuary or sprinkle milky blue oil (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Milky_blue_oil), then wait for the crawler to harmlessly burrow up in the room; that's what I did with 1011, don't know how it would work with milky blue oil. Additionally, voids are environmental effects, I thought 319 only works vs player or creature created effects? Did I misunderstand you?

All of GS combat is too easy, for the most part. I'd like to see champion variants of creatures that are faster, stronger, smarter (e.g., Destroyers know to force you into offensive and prone you before going gonzo on you, or at least more often than not). With champions, the player chooses to fight or flee, but killing the champion has increased loot tables. Champions would go a long way to increase the variance of hunting, reinforcing challenge and keeping hunting refreshing. I'd push for updates to existing creatures that make them or the hunting area conditionally more difficult (e.g., give some creatures a "blood-scent" ability that when any player is bleeding in the hunting area, the spawn rate for creatures with "blood-scent" increases by 3x). Those are the sorts of design decisions I think would help GS.

[Gelston]

GS should make raids where creatures have 10 million health and can't be crit killed so it takes several players to kill them.

[Allereli]

GS should make raids where creatures have 10 million health and can't be crit killed so it takes several players to kill them.

711

711

711

dead.

[Androidpk]

I love how the current combat system is, including the occasional insta-gib. Completel removing all risk would lead to utter boredom.

[Mobius1]

It's based off clerical CS. Empath's and sorcerers get a very slight usage from it. for everyone else it would be completely useless.

Lol, funny. I just said the EXACT same thing on officials!

[Mobius1]

Soul Ward is hopefully the first of many changes toward minimizing insta-gibs. Being Insta-gibbed is bad design; it removes lack of control from the player. A player should die from making bad decisions. Deaths caused without any input from the player is just terribul (http://youtu.be/3hIqesIVX-c?t=4s). The counter-argument would be that the player can strategically minimized deaths (e.g., train in PF, CM to mitigate bandit traps), but even then that's a general strategic decision and not a decision made in combat. The aforementioned bandit scenario might serve as a good example highlighting the difference between strategy and tactics.



I disagree that bandit traps are good. I think they're bad design. See above. The same could be said about group hunting in any scenario where you face consequences from any action you aren't able to avoid.



Alternatively, for crawlers, the player can just move to a room with no creatures and cast Minor Sanctuary or sprinkle milky blue oil (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Milky_blue_oil), then wait for the crawler to harmlessly burrow up in the room; that's what I did with 1011, don't know how it would work with milky blue oil. Additionally, voids are environmental effects, I thought 319 only works vs player or creature created effects? Did I misunderstand you?

All of GS combat is too easy, for the most part. I'd like to see champion variants of creatures that are faster, stronger, smarter (e.g., Destroyers know to force you into offensive and prone you before going gonzo on you, or at least more often than not). With champions, the player chooses to fight or flee, but killing the champion has increased loot tables. Champions would go a long way to increase the variance of hunting, reinforcing challenge and keeping hunting refreshing. I'd push for updates to existing creatures that make them or the hunting area conditionally more difficult (e.g., give some creatures a "blood-scent" ability that when any player is bleeding in the hunting area, the spawn rate for creatures with "blood-scent" increases by 3x). Those are the sorts of design decisions I think would help GS.

I'd agree with you, if not for that fact that so many things can be trained to negate most forms of danger.

Insta-gib attacks, in fact, don't technically really exist. Most of these attacks are based on maneuvers, which can be avoided with the right combination of things (Race, stats, armor, stance, +resists, etc..).

The idea behind these attacks, is to bring more danger to players with extremely high DS/TD (Pures being the typical example.), and other defenses. Without these maneuver attacks, there would be far less, or even no danger whatsoever, for many players. In fact, since, as a I pointed out, most of even the insta-gib attacks can be basically made insignificant (Even a bandit trap is not a huge deal if you have high enough DS.).

Now, could a better system be designed, perhaps? Most likely. But if you simply remove "insta-gib" abilities from the game, as it stands - you remove virtually all risk whatsoever, for a lot of players.

[Danical]

I'd agree with you, if not for that fact that so many things can be trained to negate most forms of danger.

Insta-gib attacks, in fact, don't technically really exist. Most of these attacks are based on maneuvers, which can be avoided with the right combination of things (Race, stats, armor, stance, +resists, etc..).

The idea behind these attacks, is to bring more danger to players with extremely high DS/TD (Pures being the typical example.), and other defenses. Without these maneuver attacks, there would be far less, or even no danger whatsoever, for many players. In fact, since, as a I pointed out, most of even the insta-gib attacks can be basically made insignificant (Even a bandit trap is not a huge deal if you have high enough DS.).

Now, could a better system be designed, perhaps? Most likely. But if you simply remove "insta-gib" abilities from the game, as it stands - you remove virtually all risk whatsoever, for a lot of players.

I did not say remove lethal attacks, maneuvers in your example, but simply minimize them. Insofar as insta-gib, I meant instances where a lethal attack occurs without your ability to predict or even control for the attack. It happens that sentries, elders, liches, etc spawn and eventually have fist or void or whatever prepped. The player peers to the direction of the creature and then queues up the move and attack commands but the creature gets its ability off between the move and attack sequence. I understand that's the byproduct of a combat system without engagement or aggro management, but there are ways to prevent those scenarios. That's what I'm advocating for, and 319 does exactly that, although I believe we agree too frequently at too low a cost.

Let me reiterate that I don't have problems with maneuvers, I understand their place in the game specifically as they relate to pures. Maneuvers are the attack type most often associated with one-shot kills. If you stand in front of an elder for a few rounds without disabling the elder, you're going to get fisted. That I can get behind.

Perhaps a compromise would be that if the attack warded off would have killed the cleric, the spell effect ends immediately and reduces the aura statistic of the cleric by 20, regenerating similar to death sting? Maybe even add a cooldown such that Soul Ward cannot be recast while the cleric is at diminished aura? How's that sound?

[Mobius1]

I did not say remove lethal attacks, maneuvers in your example, but simply minimize them. Insofar as insta-gib, I meant instances where a lethal attack occurs without your ability to predict or even control for the attack. It happens that sentries, elders, liches, etc spawn and eventually have fist or void or whatever prepped. The player peers to the direction of the creature and then queues up the move and attack commands but the creature gets its ability off between the move and attack sequence. I understand that's the byproduct of a combat system without engagement or aggro management, but there are ways to prevent those scenarios. That's what I'm advocating for, and 319 does exactly that, although I believe we agree too frequently at too low a cost.

Let me reiterate that I don't have problems with maneuvers, I understand their place in the game specifically as they relate to pures. Maneuvers are the attack type most often associated with one-shot kills. If you stand in front of an elder for a few rounds without disabling the elder, you're going to get fisted. That I can get behind.

Perhaps a compromise would be that if the attack warded off would have killed the cleric, the spell effect ends immediately and reduces the aura statistic of the cleric by 20, regenerating similar to death sting? Maybe even add a cooldown such that Soul Ward cannot be recast while the cleric is at diminished aura? How's that sound?

I understand where you are coming from. But these issues would be better off addressed differently, and not by something like 319.

It's not like clerics only have that issue. So why should only they get god mode?

[Danical]

I understand where you are coming from. But these issues would be better off addressed differently, and not by something like 319.

It's not like clerics only have that issue. So why should only they get god mode?

I think it would be a good opportunity for each profession to deal with the problem in a way that is both mechanically different yet faithful to the flavor of the profession.

Although, currently 319 translates to something roughly like:

Such Soul. Much Ward. 2EZ. Wow.

[Allereli]

I searched my log from yesterday for "evanescent shield." I hunted for 4 hours to get all my necro hunting out of the way. It flared 303 times.

[crb]

Finally, they would also argue that Clerics do not have a room-wide maneuver based disabler like E-wave or quake. Yes, you can get that embedded, but that isn't taken into account when looking at the core abilities of a profession. They don't have the ability to quickly and reliably lock down the room as other pures do. I wouldn't be shocked if Empaths don't get some sort of boost in this department, either by A. An e-wave type room lockdown or B some sort of semi-OP defensive option that allows a high rate of initial survival from attacks.

That is a point, but you can't keep using it to keep justifying every single other benefit clerics have, and so much shit is immune to those spells now anyways.

[Mobius1]

And the fact that 316 is a room disabler, so the point is moot.

[Kithus]

I searched my log from yesterday for "evanescent shield." I hunted for 4 hours to get all my necro hunting out of the way. It flared 303 times.

In 4 hours of hunting you IGNORED 303 attacks? That's crazy and you aren't even a cleric using the spell.

[Allereli]

In 4 hours of hunting you IGNORED 303 attacks? That's crazy and you aren't even a cleric using the spell.

yeah I was hunting with an animate so besides the ones that ambush/charge when I enter the room, I let some of them attack first so that the animate could hulk smash easily.

[Silvean]

I feel like the Cleric Circle CS of a capped sorcerer should be around 400 - 415. Is that enough to reliably ward Tritons with a TD pushdown of 25 factored in?

Unless something is working incorrectly, Allereli's report suggests that this is so.

[Ceyrin]

I tested it out in CvC, and can say that it's pretty much laughably OP in that department.

So much so, that if it's not changed, I'll sadly have to alter the rules of our next pit fights, because of it.

BWAHAHAHA!!! ... and so on.

[Kithus]

The more I look at this spell and compare it to the two most closely related spells, 1215 and 115, the more convinced I am that Mestys was doing drugs when he approved it. 319 is so many degrees of magnitude more powerful than those two that it defies understanding. What the hell were they thinking?

[Mobius1]

yeah I was hunting with an animate so besides the ones that ambush/charge when I enter the room, I let some of them attack first so that the animate could hulk smash easily.


The more I look at this spell and compare it to the two most closely related spells, 1215 and 115, the more convinced I am that Mestys was doing drugs when he approved it. 319 is so many degrees of magnitude more powerful than those two that it defies understanding. What the hell were they thinking?

I know, right? When I first saw it in action I was literally floored.

I am never compelled to actually go to the forums over class balance, but this was so crazy OP in my eyes, it blows my mind how it was approved.

And aren't there talks of certain wizard spells and such possibly getting nerfed?

In the end, when I was even able to get clerics to admit to me that it's overpowered, that alone goes to show how bad it really us. I don't think I've EVER in the history of me playing Gemstone, seen people actually admit one of their own skills is OP.

And when the cleric GM is literally spewing crap about how clerics are supposed to have the power of the gods and be all powerful, harbingers of life and death, blah blah blah......

That's pretty scary stuff. I wonder what cleric is that GM's character?

[Allereli]

And when the cleric GM is literally spewing crap about how clerics are supposed to have the power of the gods and be all powerful, harbingers of life and death, blah blah blah......

That's pretty scary stuff. I wonder what cleric is that GM's character?

Estild has been a dev GM for a very long time, I think his "character" at this point is GM Estild.

[Mobius1]

Approving 319 makes about as much sense as approving the Comcast merger.

[Gelston]

Approving 319 makes about as much sense as approving the Comcast merger.

Then switch to AT&T Uverse.

[Ceyrin]

http://images.rapgenius.com/8cc8219efb68dcaab51a90815389a207.480x480x1.jpg

[Mobius1]

http://images.rapgenius.com/8cc8219efb68dcaab51a90815389a207.480x480x1.jpg

Somebody plays a cleric ;)

[Ceyrin]

Yup.

I will say, all the things you said.about the rift being on easy-mode are basically false, except for spawn burrows.

Open/wandering voids are easily solved by using Purify Air. I can't remember the last time my cleric was stunned or given more than a minor from them.

Post-encounter burrows from any creature, crawlers included, are no problem for any cleric who knows what the they are doing (trade secrets will not be revealed).

I forget what your other complaints are/were but I remember thinking you don't really know anything about clerics.

[Tgo01]

The more I look at this spell and compare it to the two most closely related spells, 1215 and 115, the more convinced I am that Mestys was doing drugs when he approved it. 319 is so many degrees of magnitude more powerful than those two that it defies understanding. What the hell were they thinking?

As far as 115 compared to 319 goes I seem to recall the following is the order in how powerful spells should be compared to other spells:

Pure caster's spell circles (Cleric, Empath, Wizard, Sorc, etc etc)
Semi caster's spell circles (Ranger, Bard, etc etc)
Major spell circles
Minor spell circles

This explains why 1020 is generally better than 130 even though it's 10 spell levels lower.

So it does make sense that 115 compared to 319 is orders of magnitude more powerful because that's how it's supposed to work. Especially considering 319 is a level 19 spell and 115 is a level 15 spell and higher level spells are supposed to be more powerful.

It's getting tricky with 1215 and 319 though because in the order of powerfulness 1215 is right below 319 and only 4 spell levels lower.

I don't play characters that have access to 319 or 1215 so I can't comment on how much more powerful one is compared to the other.

[Tgo01]

I think a better comparison would be 319 and 540. Again we're comparing a pure spell caster's circle spell to a major but then again 540 is 21 levels higher than 319.

On paper it seems 319 is way better than 540.

With maxed out skills and maxed out enhancives 540 only has a 27% chance to activate and even then it's no guarantee that it's going to save you...although chances are it will assuming you're hunting something that is around your level.

[crb]

Estild has been a dev GM for a very long time, I think his "character" at this point is GM Estild.

But the point remains, he has always been a cleric promoter. He is also the one responsible for taking raise dead off scrolls and various other cleric tomfoolerly

[Mobius1]

Yup.

I will say, all the things you said.about the rift being on easy-mode are basically false, except for spawn burrows.

Open/wandering voids are easily solved by using Purify Air. I can't remember the last time my cleric was stunned or given more than a minor from them.

Post-encounter burrows from any creature, crawlers included, are no problem for any cleric who knows what the they are doing (trade secrets will not be revealed).

I forget what your other complaints are/were but I remember thinking you don't really know anything about clerics.

So this points out one of the most fundamental problems with this spell. You seem to point out how clerics already have few weaknesses. Why was this spell needed, then?

[Allereli]

But the point remains, he has always been a cleric promoter. He is also the one responsible for taking raise dead off scrolls and various other cleric tomfoolerly

I just don't see what the outrage is if the spell is available via blessing gem or scroll.

[Androidpk]

I don't understand the outrage either. More clerics in the game is a boon for everyone.

[Allereli]

Wow, I'm done with you Estild.

I guess the conversation is over.

[Androidpk]

I guess the conversation is over.

Is that from the officials?

[Haldrik]

This spell does shit all over temporal reversion and makes blink look like a parlor trick.

[Ceyrin]

So this points out one of the most fundamental problems with this spell. You seem to point out how clerics already have few weaknesses. Why was this spell needed, then?


I don't understand the outrage either. More clerics in the game is a boon for everyone.

This pretty much sums it up. Clerics are some of the least exciting and rewarding characters to play, mechanics-wise. More encouragement to have non-pocket clerics in the gaming environment leads to more benefits for all other players.

[Allereli]

Is that from the officials?

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Clerics/Cleric%20Spells/view/925

his complaint folders post got moved to the cleric folder.

I would like to see more info from non-capped, non-cleric characters using it.

[Mobius1]

That's a silly excuse for a class to be overpowered.

Also, one could argue that this would lead clerics to quit, after having won Gemstone.

[Androidpk]

That's a silly excuse for a class to be overpowered.

Also, one could argue that this would lead clerics to quit, after having won Gemstone.

You are ridiculous.

[Danical]

Query!

(1) Rouge using two weapons to ambush Cleric with 319 active.
(2) Assume Cleric wards Rogue with 319.
(3) Assume Cleric has 0 blessing ranks.

Do BOTH swings from the single TWC ambush get negated or just the first?

[Androidpk]

Query!

(1) Rouge using two weapons to ambush Cleric with 319 active.
(2) Assume Cleric wards Rogue with 319.
(3) Assume Cleric has 0 blessing ranks.

Do BOTH swings from the single TWC ambush get negated or just the first?

Just the first I would imagine.

[crb]

This pretty much sums it up. Clerics are some of the least exciting and rewarding characters to play, mechanics-wise. More encouragement to have non-pocket clerics in the gaming environment leads to more benefits for all other players.

What prof you play again bro?

[crb]

I just don't see what the outrage is if the spell is available via blessing gem or scroll.

It doesn't fit with the established paradigm of costs and balances exhibited with spells of other professions.

1625 is the same way. Remember when sorcerers got saddled with spell componentry and we were told it was the wave of the future, and then paladins get a prep cast permanent item buff?

And because it uses cleric CS the utility for non-clerics is going to be severely limiting.

[Androidpk]

It doesn't fit with the established paradigm of costs and balances exhibited with spells of other professions.

1625 is the same way. Remember when sorcerers got saddled with spell componentry and we were told it was the wave of the future, and then paladins get a prep cast permanent item buff?

And because it uses cleric CS the utility for non-clerics is going to be severely limiting.

And now sorcerers have a spell that not only grants permanent effects on items but allows them to make millions of silvers easily, so enough with the crocodile tears.

[Tgo01]

And now sorcerers have a spell that not only grants permanent effects on items but allows them to make millions of dollars easily, so enough with the crocodile tears.

BWOHP! BWOHP! Hyperbole alert! Hyperbole alert! BWOHP! BWOHP!

[Ceyrin]

What prof you play again bro?

srs queschuns olny plz

[crb]

And now sorcerers have a spell that not only grants permanent effects on items but allows them to make millions of silvers easily, so enough with the crocodile tears.

I don't see the connection. Also, what, exactly, are crocodile tears? I've heard the phrase before but I'm not sure the meaning.

[rolfard]

7092

They cry while tearing your face off! (or just regular eating)!

[Androidpk]

Faux tears/outrage.

[Donquix]

I don't see the connection. Also, what, exactly, are crocodile tears? I've heard the phrase before but I'm not sure the meaning.

...

[Ceyrin]

I don't see the connection. Also, what, exactly, are crocodile tears? I've heard the phrase before but I'm not sure the meaning.

http://makeameme.org/media/created/The-troll-is.jpg

[crb]

Faux tears/outrage.

Have you ever known me to faux anything? I know I can be a tactless unfeeling prick/jerk/asshole, but I call it like I see it, always. There is nothing faux about saying that spell jumps the shark. You can disagree, and you'd be wrong to do so, but I'm certainly not faking it.

[Danical]

It doesn't fit with the established paradigm of costs and balances exhibited with spells of other professions.

Gemstone development has always been patchwork. That is to say, there aren't enough volunteers GMs to develop neatly packaged balance changes updating all professions in a single release. Obviously, because of this development cycle some professions will naturally be ahead of others in terms of the established paradigm of costs and balances. Would you not agree?

[Dhuul2]

I'm still thrilled we get self-raise. Still can't believe that one. I can do it twice a day, what the fuck?

Anyway, the only possible justification for this cheese is that Simu wants more clerics. Based on who prof, 12/218 players are declared clerics.
There's probably more than double that but...all spread out, low playerbase, makes sense to have more. But I don't really buy it.

[Tgo01]

An even better spell to compare this to is 1150.

Fully trained 1150 can be cast 4 times a day, lasts 30 seconds, and upon activation and every 4 seconds afterwards will heal all wounds and scars and all blood lose and provide crit protection.

While 1150 is nice and it does save me from time to time I gotta say, 319 sounds a whole helluva lot better. And in this case we are comparing a level 50 pure spell circle to a level 19 pure spell circle.

1150 is more of a reactive spell; you're mostly going to use it after you have already gotten your ass kicked because you can only use it between 1-4 times a day. 319 is more of a defensive spell so that you don't get your ass kicked to begin with and it can be up all the time apparently.

I'm not losing any sleep over it but I gotta say I can see where people are coming from in saying it seems very powerful.

[Fallen]

What open slots are available above 320? I don't have access to the officials right now. 325, 330, 335, 340. Move the slot up to one of those and call it a day.

[Tgo01]

What open slots are available above 320? I don't have access to the officials right now. 325, 330, 335, 340. Move the slot up to one of those and call it a day.

I agree. I don't necessarily think the spell is too powerful, but for it's spell level it does seem a bit much. Making it 340 would make a lot more sense.

[Danical]

What open slots are available above 320? I don't have access to the officials right now. 325, 330, 335, 340. Move the slot up to one of those and call it a day.

None are open.

325 (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/325)
330 (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/330)
335 (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/335)
340 (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/340)

EDIT: Although swapping 340 with 319 seems reasonable. 340 seems a bit underwhelming to me, although, I've never seen it in action.

[Androidpk]

What open slots are available above 320? I don't have access to the officials right now. 325, 330, 335, 340. Move the slot up to one of those and call it a day.

Drop prayer of commune, 330, and add this in its place.

[Tgo01]

None are open.

325 (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/325)
330 (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/330)
335 (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/335)
340 (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/340)

Yeah. Guess there isn't much to do. They could make a new slot; 360!

[Tgo01]

Drop prayer of commune, 330, and add this in its place.

And which spell is going to become the totally worthless spell that no one ever uses Mr. Smart Guy?

[Ceyrin]

330 is a very useful spell. It will never be removed. I would be pretty sad if it ever was removed. I've never really liked it at that slot, but I don't think it fits at 319 either.

[Tgo01]

330 is a very useful spell.

Sarcasm?

Granted I really don't know a whole lot about it but isn't it like 100% useless if no GMs are on or no GMs are on that feel like getting involved with the spell?

I seem to recall hearing a while ago that clerics would post in advance when they planned on using 330 so they could be sure a GM would be online and willing to play along when they cast the spell. Sounds like the concept of prayer of commune should just be integrated to be a base cleric ability (like meditating) and an actual spell should be put in the 330 slot.

[crb]

Gemstone development has always been patchwork. That is to say, there aren't enough volunteers GMs to develop neatly packaged balance changes updating all professions in a single release. Obviously, because of this development cycle some professions will naturally be ahead of others in terms of the established paradigm of costs and balances. Would you not agree?

I would agree that that is an explanation, but not an excuse. I do hate how sorcerers always seem to be on the ass end of that. We're still waiting them to come back around to our direct damage spells after nerfs that are now what 15 years old? In a world of 319 is old DC really so bad? Then we get screwed with the componentry for that brief time that was the new thing.

[crb]

None are open.

325 (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/325)
330 (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/330)
335 (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/335)
340 (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/340)

EDIT: Although swapping 340 with 319 seems reasonable. 340 seems a bit underwhelming to me, although, I've never seen it in action.

Technically they could add it to 325, 325 also does what 740 does and all that. Why not add yet another random function to that slot?

Oh yes, that REMINDS ME. Remember 325 Teleporting Allereli, and they don't even need to use chalk. Another example of double standards.

But like I said, no one should have been surprised by this. Clerics are the favorite of the current GM group, and have been for a long long time. Remember, I think it was Estild again, who insisted clerics were the masters of mana, which is why they totally deserved having their low mana control training costs. Estild gives clerics more titles than Kim Jung Il gives himself. I always thought that, if any profession was a "master of mana" it'd be the one that could disrupt mana, or catalyze it into an explosive reaction, or maybe leech it, or something. But nah.. That conversation was some epic bullshit. As I look back on things, I think the game will improve when Estild leaves.

[Androidpk]

Technically they could add it to 325, 325 also does what 740 does and all that. Why not add yet another random function to that slot?

Oh yes, that REMINDS ME. Remember 325 Teleporting Allereli, and they don't even need to use chalk. Another example of double standards.

But like I said, no one should have been surprised by this. Clerics are the favorite of the current GM group, and have been for a long long time. Remember, I think it was Estild again, who insisted clerics were the masters of mana, which is why they totally deserved having their low mana control training costs. Estild gives clerics more titles than Kim Jung Il gives himself. I always thought that, if any profession was a "master of mana" it'd be the one that could disrupt mana, or catalyze it into an explosive reaction, or maybe leech it, or something. But nah.. That conversation was some epic bullshit. As I look back on things, I think the game will improve when Estild leaves.

You sound seriously butthurt.

[Allereli]

well, you can be bitter, or you can have fun and use the spell. 325 transport is not that great. using chalk is not that difficult

[Whirlin]

The other implications of this new spell is that it further incentives playing a cleric as a pure... While clerics are pures, one of the great strengths of gemstone is the ability to deviate and play the character they envision, while still receiving some strength from your spells, even if you're not vastly overtrained in the circle.

[Danical]

But like I said, no one should have been surprised by this. Clerics are the favorite of the current GM group, and have been for a long long time. ... As I look back on things, I think the game will improve when Estild leaves.

You seem to be implying that the dev GMs have some sort of favoritism. As you well know, when there were enough dev staff, each were assigned to a specific domain. Estild had spiritualists (Empaths and Clerics), Mestys hybrids (Bards and Rangers), Stealth rogues, Coase Warriors and I don't really remember the others. However, it just so happens that Estild appears to be by far and away the most productive of all the GMs coupled with being one of the longest active developers. It's not a Cleric conspiracy, rather, Estild is simply more active and as a result the boundaries of balance are expanded for Empaths and Clerics as development continues. That was my implied point about the patchwork development cycle that is GS.

At any rate, I vehemently disagree that GS would be better without Estild.

[Ceyrin]

Every single function of 325 requires a material component. All of them.

Nexus gems are inferior to 740, insofar as Planar Shift can teleport you to any realm with sufficient training, not just an adjacent one.

Clerics are not the masters of mana. Those were the grounds upon which players balked at the removal of Interdiction(314) from the spell list. It failed. Interestingly enough, one of the reasons it was removed, Mobius will love - it was deemed a CvC only spell, with no real functionality as a CvE spell, which was more or less correct.

[crb]

You seem to be implying that the dev GMs have some sort of favoritism. As you well know, when there were enough dev staff, each were assigned to a specific domain. Estild had spiritualists (Empaths and Clerics), Mestys hybrids (Bards and Rangers), Stealth rogues, Coase Warriors and I don't really remember the others. However, it just so happens that Estild appears to be by far and away the most productive of all the GMs coupled with being one of the longest active developers. It's not a Cleric conspiracy, rather, Estild is simply more active and as a result the boundaries of balance are expanded for Empaths and Clerics as development continues. That was my implied point about the patchwork development cycle that is GS.

At any rate, I vehemently disagree that GS would be better without Estild.

The funny thing is you can't remember the others. And yes, Estild is a great advocate for clerics, but he has a poor concept of mechanical game balance and those above him, approving things, aren't keeping the reins on as they should.

[crb]

Every single function of 325 requires a material component. All of them.

Thats nice. They require a gem. The single function of 725 requires components as well, (and a guild skill to get full use), as does the single function of 730 and the single function of 740 and the single function of 925, etc. It is nice that the many functions of 325 all require a component. I'm stressing certain words here so you don't miss my meaning on bringing up 325 a second time. I'm surprised honestly that 319 was not implemented as a ninth? tenth? function of 325, keeping that slot free for something else.


Clerics are not the masters of mana.

Oh I agree, Estild does not, some years back him and I and others had a very heated argument about it on the officials. He was trying to justify why clerics are better mana sharers than wizards.

[Sorcasaurus]

The funny thing is you can't remember the others. And yes, Estild is a great advocate for clerics, but he has a poor concept of mechanical game balance and those above him, approving things, aren't keeping the reins on as they should.

It sounds like we should all be complaining the other classes are under powered. Clerics are clearly working as intended.

[crb]

Thread: Soul Ward (319)
Holy fuck, you are a goddamn cry baby. How does them having that effect you? It doesn't. STFU and go back to ass fucking yourself with your runestaff.

To ignorant anonymous repper:

Everyone hunts the same critters. If there is indeed a concept of players having roughly the same struggle in advancing, and it is not intended for certain professions to be easy street, then, if one profession gains some new ability that negates most dangers they face while hunting, the solution, other than removing that new ability (and it was just added) is to increase critter difficulty. Which effects everyone. Duh.

Plus it is bad game design, and believe it or not, I actually care about game design. I know I come across as completely dispassionate on this topic and you may find it hard to believe, but its true.

So, go fuck yourself.

[Kithus]

It sounds like we should all be complaining the other classes are under powered. Clerics are clearly working as intended.

Clerics were fine before 319. The additional spell is overpowered. However, I think we have to break this conversation into two parts. We can discuss which classes are more powerful and we can also discuss which get more dev. At this point we seem to be blurring those two things. While I do not necessarily feel that clerics, empaths and paladins are overall more powerful than sorcerers, wizards, rangers and bards, I do know that the former group has received far more dev attention than the latter in the recent years. Paladins became and thing AND got a full spell circle review since the last time bards got any major update. This is because certain members of the dev team have a bias towards working on certain professions that they are more interested in. That's fine but at some point we need to find advocates for the other professions and give them the same leeway we are giving Estild and Finros. Otherwise we are just going to continue pilling overpowered abilities on those classes that Estild likes (and watching Finros gut the classes he likes), while other classes continue to function exactly as they did in GS3.

[Sorcasaurus]

I was mostly joking because a large % of players here seem to agree 319 seems to go above and beyond what a 19th level spell "should" do.

Don't they still assign devs to specific classes? I can't blame Estild and Finros for getting more done for their classes than other devs. I'm actually glad to see their bias. It gives the impression they're interested and care about the class, championing it's value and development in the game.

The issue is with the people approving changes having a different idea of balance than people posting in this thread. Or possibly Simu's ability to find active devs for other classes. Ideally I'd love to see every class have devs pushing their class like Finros an Estild, and the quality team (or whoever approves changes) having to filter what gets through.

[Kithus]

That should be Mestys making the final balance decision. Which is why I suggested he might have a been blitzed when the approval for 319 came across his desk.

[Sorcasaurus]

That should be Mestys making the final balance decision. Which is why I suggested he might have a been blitzed when the approval for 319 came across his desk.

I missed that in this thread, but it seems plausible.

The nice part is, they can always decide it's "Not quite working as intended" and change it.

[Archigeek]

This is why Warden was so great. He had such good overall vision of game balance, and the long term effects of changes AND player advancement. This spell is so OP it's almost embarrassing. It's like initial implementation of redux level of OP.

[Ceyrin]

It sounds like we should all be complaining the other classes are under powered. Clerics are clearly working as intended.

Exactly. I'd rather prop other classes up, than just try and bitch my way into a nerf for some other class.

[Kithus]

Exactly. I'd rather prop other classes up, than just try and bitch my way into a nerf for some other class.

This isn't a request for a nerf Ceyrin. It's a concern about an over buff. I do not want every profession propped up to god mode. It would make the game very boring.

[Sorcasaurus]

Exactly. I'd rather prop other classes up, than just try and bitch my way into a nerf for some other class.

As much as I believe this idea, it's hard not to think 319 doesn't need some tweaking though :unfair:

Even if it just requires some lores to get near where it is now.

[Ceyrin]

Having not actually interacted with the spell myself yet, I can't comment on whether or not it's overpowered.

On paper, it seems good, certainly. In practice, I can only expect that dying will still happen. The biggest problem with how I will look at it is that my cleric is not optimally trained for hunting. So, a spell that possibly negates the first attack is not likely to negate the only attack that cleric will receive from said creature.

[Sorcasaurus]

Having not actually interacted with the spell myself yet, I can't comment on whether or not it's overpowered.

On paper, it seems good, certainly. In practice, I can only expect that dying will still happen. The biggest problem with how I will look at it is that my cleric is not optimally trained for hunting. So, a spell that possibly negates the first attack is not likely to negate the only attack that cleric will receive from said creature.

Wait, you've been one of the few defenders of it so far and you haven't tried it yet? :lolwave:

Props for being up front about it though. Go test it =P

[Ceyrin]

Please show me where I have "defended" it (319).

Can't test it. I don't have an active account currently. I'll probably get around to it next year some time.

[Sorcasaurus]

Please show me where I have "defended" it (319).

Can't test it. I don't have an active account currently. I'll probably get around to it next year some time.

Wait, you haven't? When people mentioned this needed adjusting your response was along the lines of "Clerics need incentives like this new spell, it is good for the class."

It's entirely possible you haven't directly addressed this spell and instead spoke about the class completely separate of the very spell this thread was created to discuss. Cheers? I'm not going back through the 18 pages to find each quote right now. I'm sorry if I took your general sentiment that this was good for the class as an implied defense of the spell?

[crb]

Wait, you haven't? When people mentioned this needed adjusting your response was along the lines of "Clerics need incentives like this new spell, it is good for the class."

It's entirely possible you haven't directly addressed this spell and instead spoke about the class completely separate of the very spell this thread was created to discuss. Cheers? I'm not going back through the 18 pages to find each quote right now. I'm sorry if I took your general sentiment that this was good for the class as an implied defense of the spell?

Ceyrin is a cleric partisan, he doesn't need any first hand experience to defend it.

[Allereli]

Ceyrin is a cleric partisan, he doesn't need any first hand experience to defend it.

viril- why are you so against it when you can use it so easily?

[Tgo01]

viril- why are you so against it when you can use it so easily?

People keep saying this. I thought the spell goes by your cleric CS and that this spell is only going to be useful for clerics if they are hunting things around their level?

Sounds like the spell is going to be near useless for non clerics.

[Allereli]

People keep saying this. I thought the spell goes by your cleric CS and that this spell is only going to be useful for clerics if they are hunting things around their level?

Sounds like the spell is going to be near useless for non clerics.

I'm hunting Nelemar, it flares regularly. 303 times in 4 hours as I said on Monday.

[Fallen]

People keep saying this. I thought the spell goes by your cleric CS and that this spell is only going to be useful for clerics if they are hunting things around their level?

Sounds like the spell is going to be near useless for non clerics.

You only need a 101 endroll for the spell to have its full effect. Add to that a -25 TD to your target and you should be able to ward things -10 to -5 levels of you, especially if they are a "square" type.

Empaths, Sorcerers, and perhaps Paladins (Champion's Might is pretty awesome) could all potentially ward creatures in their hunting grounds with a relatively high degree of success.

[Androidpk]

I searched my log from yesterday for "evanescent shield." I hunted for 4 hours to get all my necro hunting out of the way. It flared 303 times.

303 flares in under 4 hours doesn't sound useless to me. If the flares last longer than 4 hours though contact your doctor immediately.

[Ceyrin]

I can see how that would be taken as defense of 319, and it may ad well be. In reality it came from a place of defense for clerics having something exciting and incentivizing.

This spell could just be OP as fuck. I'd still rather see other classes get OP spells/abilities than just have a knee-jerk reaction and claim the virtual sky is falling.

[Danical]

I'm hunting Nelemar, it flares regularly. 303 times in 4 hours as I said on Monday.

Of your 4 hour stretches in Nelemar, how often do you normally die? The relevant question being: how many of those 303 attacks would have resulted in a one-shot kill or snowball kill?


The problem I'm having with this thread is that it's become polarized (i.e., 319 = OP, 319 = Fine) without suggestions as to how to remedy the perceived problem. If one were to reduce the effectiveness of 319, what would that look like?

My previous suggestion:
If 319 were to prevent a one-shot kill, 319 immediately ends, Aura STAT reduced by 20, while Aura STAT is reduced in this manner, 319 cannot be cast.

[Allereli]

Of your 4 hour stretches in Nelemar, how often do you normally die? The relevant question being: how many of those 303 attacks would have resulted in a one-shot kill or snowball kill?

Typically I don't die because I spell tank. Even when they do get me down in offensive, I can handle the attacks. I'm also super careful on the 2nd floor, but when I do die, it's usually there. What does happen regularly anywhere in Nelemar are charges, disarms, and slit throats that I did not have much of an issue with while using 319.

[Archigeek]

Of your 4 hour stretches in Nelemar, how often do you normally die? The relevant question being: how many of those 303 attacks would have resulted in a one-shot kill or snowball kill?


The problem I'm having with this thread is that it's become polarized (i.e., 319 = OP, 319 = Fine) without suggestions as to how to remedy the perceived problem. If one were to reduce the effectiveness of 319, what would that look like?

My previous suggestion:
If 319 were to prevent a one-shot kill, 319 immediately ends, Aura STAT reduced by 20, while Aura STAT is reduced in this manner, 319 cannot be cast.

I think the best solution would be to make it like all the other similar spells, notably the ones that give you a second warding check: if it fires it goes away and you have to re-cast.

[Sorcasaurus]

Of your 4 hour stretches in Nelemar, how often do you normally die? The relevant question being: how many of those 303 attacks would have resulted in a one-shot kill or snowball kill?


The problem I'm having with this thread is that it's become polarized (i.e., 319 = OP, 319 = Fine) without suggestions as to how to remedy the perceived problem. If one were to reduce the effectiveness of 319, what would that look like?

My previous suggestion:
If 319 were to prevent a one-shot kill, 319 immediately ends, Aura STAT reduced by 20, while Aura STAT is reduced in this manner, 319 cannot be cast.

People have also suggested lore requirements to get it to more effective levels. Even if it took something like maxing two different lores to get it where it is now, that'd be more reflective of the character than near immunity hunting at level 19.

My example would be - if I saw Kaedra use this spell and it was this effective, I'd find it almost appropriate. An extremely post cap character becoming extremely powerful.



I can see how that would be taken as defense of 319, and it may ad well be. In reality it came from a place of defense for clerics having something exciting and incentivizing.

This spell could just be OP as fuck. I'd still rather see other classes get OP spells/abilities than just have a knee-jerk reaction and claim the virtual sky is falling.

I support where you're coming from, and agree 100% with the sentiment of being pro-development over "nerfing" things.

That said, no one else is saying clerics shouldn't get a spell like this. We're discussing if we think it goes too far in empowering clerics, and where we think it should be on that scale. A class can be just as unrewarding if it's too easy, and frustrating if it pushes changes that make things more difficult for those not receiving the new toy.

I believe redux followed a similar path? Crazy on release and needed a little tweaking to find it's place in the game.

[Danical]

I think the best solution would be to make it like all the other similar spells, notably the ones that give you a second warding check: if it fires it goes away and you have to re-cast.

I don't think that would work in the case of 319 because it always fires. The relevant question would be, of the triggered events, how many successfully stave off a successful attack?

How about if 319 successfully prevents what would have otherwise been a successful attack, the spell ends? Modify the Spiritual Lore:Blessing to keep the spell active instead of block the second attack?

[Danical]

People have also suggested lore requirements to get it to more effective levels. Even if it took something like maxing two different lores to get it where it is now, that'd be more reflective of the character than near immunity hunting at level 19.

My example would be - if I saw Kaedra use this spell and it was this effective, I'd find it almost appropriate. An extremely post cap character becoming extremely powerful.

What would that lore implementation look like?

As an aside, I don't think lore training, even maximized, should ever increase the effectiveness of a spell more than 100% of the base effects. An offender of this principle would be 1035 whereby 75 ranks of Air Lore increases the base haste effect by 200%.

[Sorcasaurus]

What would that lore implementation look like?

As an aside, I don't think lore training, even maximized, should ever increase the effectiveness of a spell more than 100% of the base effects. An offender of this principle would be 1035 whereby 75 ranks of Air Lore increases the base haste effect by 200%.

You can scale anything. Number of attacks, TD pushdown, chance of block, result of block, duration, types of attacks... Even just setting set tiers like some spells do. 150 ranks of X lore - negate cmans too etc

[Danical]

Number of attacks, TD pushdown, chance of block, result of block, duration, types of attacks... Even just setting set tiers like some spells do. 150 ranks of X lore - negate cmans too etc

If you were to take a suggestion to Estild, what exactly would you suggest?

[Archigeek]

I don't think that would work in the case of 319 because it always fires. The relevant question would be, of the triggered events, how many successfully stave off a successful attack?

How about if 319 successfully prevents what would have otherwise been a successful attack, the spell ends? Modify the Spiritual Lore:Blessing to keep the spell active instead of block the second attack?

Well that's the second half of the problem. It's almost like a "cleric only" sanctuary that still allows you to attack. I think it has to fire off less often, perhaps a base frequency +the appropriate lore graduated scale.

For comparison, compare this to 140. 140, when it was changed from 150 during growing pains, had its duration cut dramatically, and wizard shield was nerfed as well. This spell is more powerful than the pre-growing pains version of either of those, and is a lower level spell to boot.

[Allereli]

and is a lower level spell to boot.

Not arguing the rest of the post, but in general profession circle spells can be more powerful than minor circles at lower spell #s.

[Kithus]

I've revised my opinion on this spell after realizing that it only prevents the first attack and not the first SUCCESSFUL attack. Most of the time this spell is doing nothing. What it is good for is preventing cheap deaths like spawn burrows and just walked into the room charges. The only problem I have now is that the Infusing spirit effect added on top of the cheap death prevention effect is too much. It should have been a lore requirement, probably a summoning lore requirement.

Edit: I was wrong, Mestys was only a lil buzzed when he approved this.

[Tenlaar]

I've revised my opinion on this spell after realizing that it only prevents the first attack and not the first SUCCESSFUL attack. Most of the time this spell is doing nothing. What it is good for is preventing cheap deaths like spawn burrows and just walked into the room charges.

Oh, so it's only really good for preventing the things that actually cause most deaths? That changes everything...

[Tgo01]

Most of my deaths in the rift are due to first attacks from critters; ie crawler burrows. Granted getting temporary slash protection from warriors helps a lot but I would much rather have a 100% guarantee that I never have to worry about falling off.

[crb]

viril- why are you so against it when you can use it so easily?

It. Is. Bad. Game. Design.

Also it is an lie of omission to say other professions can use it easily when it is based off of cleric CS, the effectiveness of which is severely limited in non-Clerics.

But I would be against this spell if it were put in 716 to replace disease.

As is I would only find it acceptable if it were a 1m duration like rapidfire, and topped out beneath a 100% activation rate, based on lore training. In short, it should be an emergency usage type thing, not an "all the time" type thing.

[Kithus]

As is I would only find it acceptable if it were a 1m duration like rapidfire, and topped out beneath a 100% activation rate, based on lore training.

Wouldn't that just make it a much worse version of 540? As I said, I'm far less against it since realizing most of the time it isn't doing anything. Could you expand upon your exact reasons for your balance concerns? Maybe there's something I'm still not seeing.

[Allereli]

It. Is. Bad. Game. Design.

Also it is an lie of omission to say other professions can use it easily when it is based off of cleric CS, the effectiveness of which is severely limited in non-Clerics.

But I would be against this spell if it were put in 716 to replace disease.

As is I would only find it acceptable if it were a 1m duration like rapidfire, and topped out beneath a 100% activation rate, based on lore training.

well the activation rate is based on a hidden roll, which is based on CS v. TD so there are fumbles involved, that would be 99%

[crb]

Two questions unrelated to the overpoweredness of the spell.

1. How does it function against antimagic critters. Will it block the first attack from a vvrael or construct? If so, that seems like a bug to me (but I'm sure Estild would try to justify it).
2. In CvC, how does it respond if the target is wearing kroderine?

[Kithus]

Two questions unrelated to the overpoweredness of the spell.

1. How does it function against antimagic critters. Will it block the first attack from a vvrael or construct? If so, that seems like a bug to me (but I'm sure Estild would try to justify it).
2. In CvC, how does it respond if the target is wearing kroderine?

I can tell you Estild already made it function against magic immune creatures. Initially it was inconsistent in that regard and he made it work against all of them. Honestly, I think this is consistent with other defensive spells. While it happens to use a warding check to determine success the spell is actually a magical shield the creature would be trying to penetrate. If vvrael could ignore this then they could also ignore other defensive spells. Good question on the kroderine armor/shields. I wonder if it would have a chance to be absorbed like other spells. I would lean towards no for the same reason as outlined for anti-magic critters.

[crb]

well the activation rate is based on a hidden roll, which is based on CS v. TD so there are fumbles involved, that would be 99%

The activation rate is not based on a roll.

The success of the activation rate is.

99% is near enough to 100% to make no difference.

712, which requires you to be hurt first, and has backlash, maxes out at 95%
540, with max enhancives on and max training, caps at 27%
115 has flat rates of 50%, 25%, and 12.5% depending on sphere of magic, and of course only works once and then must be recast. With lore they can increase to 69/44/31

I think, considering the necessary lethality of first strikes in our current combat system, 75% should really be the cap, and that should be for Kaedra. It should be lore modified.

And still, 1m of duration, refreshable not stackable.

[crb]

I can tell you Estild already made it function against magic immune creatures. Initially it was inconsistent in that regard and he made it work against all of them. Honestly, I think this is consistent with other defensive spells.

The bullshittery continues I see.

[Allereli]

I agree that 540 is too weak.

[Kithus]

I agree that 540 is too weak.

540 has a chance to activate against any successful attack against you, whether it is the first or tenth a creature has thrown. When it activates it is always useful. We could discuss tweaking the activation % but even stopping 1/10 of attacks that otherwise would have hit you is a big deal.

[Fallen]

540 has a chance to activate against any successful attack against you, whether it is the first or tenth a creature has thrown. When it activates it is always useful. We could discuss tweaking the activation % but even stopping 1/10 of attacks that otherwise would have hit you is a big deal.

540 needs major, major lore tie-ins to dramatically increase its premise. It is a fucking 40th level spell on a profession circle. Granted, Wizards have 2 profession circles, but what can you do.

[Methais]

540 is a shitstain for a level 40 spell with a flat 10% chance regardless of lore training.

[Trouble]

As the player of a cleric I can see how people think the spell is OP. It's really not that big of a deal in PvE. Very rarely is anything I'm hunting going to hit me on the first swing or cast anyway. The part where it does provide an advantage is against maneuver attacks specifically aimed at squishing pures.

In fairness though, I'd say the duration could be lowered to like 5 mins flat (long enough for a rescue and drag in the Rift) *OR* it needs to be a percentage chance to activate, like the wizard and ranger equivalents. Having one cast last me 3 hours is a tad advantageous, I'll agree.

[Danical]

540 Suggestion:

For every attack the spell doesn't trigger against the creature, the chance to trigger improves against that specific creature.

(1) Wizard with a 15% chance of triggering 540.
(2) Creature attacks Wizard, 540 does not trigger, subsequent chance to trigger against Creature improves to [1 - (1-.15)^2] = 27.75%; Incremental increase of 12.75.
(3) Creature attacks Wizard, 540 does not trigger, subsequent chance to trigger against Creature improves to [1 - (1-.15)^3] = 38.59%; Incremental increase of 10.84.
(4) Creature attacks Wizard, 540 does not trigger, subsequent chance to trigger against Creature improves to [1 - (1-.15)^4] = 47.80%; Incremental increase of 9.21.
(5) Creature attacks Wizard, 540 does not trigger, subsequent chance to trigger against Creature improves to [1 - (1-.15)^5] = 55.63%; Incremental increase of 7.83.

[Sorcasaurus]

If you were to take a suggestion to Estild, what exactly would you suggest?

Base unenhanced:
-attempts to block the first swing/spell from all creatures in the room + 2
-Ward at critter TD +25
-Can't imbue it without lore
-Can activate while disabled at the cost of spirit

Lores:
- +2 creatures every 10 spritual blessing ranks
- -1 TD every 4 summoning ranks (might be better as cleric spells known -1 for every 2)
- include AOE attacks to chance to block at 50 summoning + blessing ranks
- imbeddable to gem at 100 combined ranks - imbedded spell uses activators CS with half lore ranks of cleric that created the gem
- Diety specific messaging at 100 combined ranks
- Include Cman at 130 summoning + blessing ranks
- include environment traps (void/bandits etc) at 200 summoning + blessing ranks
- keep seed chart for % of attempting to block second attack.

That'd be a rough start. I don't know how Cleric warding margins progress vs like level creatures, so the TD boost/debuff may be a bit off numbers wise. The idea was it isn't so close to 100% to start, and get's pretty damn close as you train. Also not sure how strapped for TPs clerics are either. Lore tiers were estimated at about 1x each per level. Some wiggle room to push for some thresholds earlier. Could also move the +25 TD to it's effect when activated during a disable, and have the range be 0 to -25 based on lore. Anywho, that's about where I'd start if I were trying to implement the abilities they have included in its release.



-

[Kithus]

TEP2
Just a quick question Estlid, since I know it's a corner case. Despite being a hidden CS attack the spell is subject to the auto absorption of kroderine, correct?


No, it is not. Mainly because we incorporated the hidden warding check as a means to balance the spell (e.g. so a level 20 Cleric can't negate an attack from a level 100 creature) not because the Cleric is actually casting a spell at the target. It really didn't make sense for most of those checks to trigger just because they're attacking a cleric with Soul Ward active.

GameMaster Estild


There you go.

[Ceyrin]

Ceyrin is a cleric partisan, he doesn't need any first hand experience to defend it.

Someone is projecting (again).

[zzentar]

540 is a shitstain for a level 40 spell with a flat 10% chance regardless of lore training.

I think you are wrong. EMC gives a nice bonus.
Pretty sure I get a 1/4 chance of flaring.

from Krakii,
Elemental Mana Control (max 25% with 202 ranks EMC).
~Zz

[Sorcasaurus]

Completed my post on how I would have implemented. Doubt people would be fervently checking it, so I'm going to post the whole thing here again and feel important:


Quote Originally Posted by Danical View Post
If you were to take a suggestion to Estild, what exactly would you suggest?
Base unenhanced:
-attempts to block the first swing/spell from all creatures in the room + 2
-Ward at critter TD +25
-Can't imbue it without lore
-Can activate while disabled at the cost of spirit

Lores:
- +2 creatures every 10 spritual blessing ranks
- -1 TD every 4 summoning ranks (might be better as cleric spells known -1 for every 2)
- include AOE attacks to chance to block at 50 summoning + blessing ranks
- imbeddable to gem at 100 combined ranks - imbedded spell uses activators CS with half lore ranks of cleric that created the gem
- Diety specific messaging at 100 combined ranks
- Include Cman at 130 summoning + blessing ranks
- include environment traps (void/bandits etc) at 200 summoning + blessing ranks
- keep seed chart for % of attempting to block second attack.

That'd be a rough start. I don't know how Cleric warding margins progress vs like level creatures, so the TD boost/debuff may be a bit off numbers wise. The idea was it isn't so close to 100% to start, and get's pretty damn close as you train. Also not sure how strapped for TPs clerics are either. Lore tiers were estimated at about 1x each per level. Some wiggle room to push for some thresholds earlier. Could also move the +25 TD to it's effect when activated during a disable, and have the range be 0 to -25 based on lore. Anywho, that's about where I'd start if I were trying to implement the abilities they have included in its release.

[Methais]

I think you are wrong. EMC gives a nice bonus.
Pretty sure I get a 1/4 chance of flaring.

from Krakii,
Elemental Mana Control (max 25% with 202 ranks EMC).
~Zz

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/eb/a8/b2/eba8b248df213fac1672ced7df9b65aa.jpg

[Tgo01]

Completed my post on how I would have implemented. Doubt people would be fervently checking it, so I'm going to post the whole thing here again and feel important:

I think you're awesome.

The more I read about this spell the more I think it's overpowered for a level 19 spell. It really should be bumped up somehow.

It's tough looking at 1150 and it's very limited usage then looking at 319 and saying gee...wish I had that...

It's especially hard on my poor wizard. He looks at his highest level spell, 930, and thinks "That's kind of useless." Before the hate starts, no, I know 930 isn't useless, but honestly in the grand scheme of things it's not all that powerful for a level 30 spell. It should be dropped down to 919 and wizard shield should be put in the 930 spot and Wizard Shield can have a duration of like 30 minutes.

[Tgo01]

2. In CvC, how does it respond if the target is wearing kroderine?

Estild said it ignores kroderine.

[Donquix]

It. Is. Bad. Game. Design.

Also it is an lie of omission to say other professions can use it easily when it is based off of cleric CS, the effectiveness of which is severely limited in non-Clerics.

But I would be against this spell if it were put in 716 to replace disease.

As is I would only find it acceptable if it were a 1m duration like rapidfire, and topped out beneath a 100% activation rate, based on lore training. In short, it should be an emergency usage type thing, not an "all the time" type thing.

That is bullshit and you know it. If sorcerers were given this spell the only thing that would stop you from defending it vehemently on the boards would be literally dying from how much you were masturbating to the thought of your new power.

[Sorcasaurus]

That is bullshit and you know it. If sorcerers were given this spell the only thing that would stop you from defending it vehemently on the boards would be literally dying from how much you were masturbating to the thought of your new power.

I'd be against it being 716 as well. I'm not against it being in the game, but I don't want it in the sorcerer spell circle. At least not in the form it's in now.

[crb]

540 Suggestion:

For every attack the spell doesn't trigger against the creature, the chance to trigger improves against that specific creature.

(1) Wizard with a 15% chance of triggering 540.
(2) Creature attacks Wizard, 540 does not trigger, subsequent chance to trigger against Creature improves to [1 - (1-.15)^2] = 27.75%; Incremental increase of 12.75.
(3) Creature attacks Wizard, 540 does not trigger, subsequent chance to trigger against Creature improves to [1 - (1-.15)^3] = 38.59%; Incremental increase of 10.84.
(4) Creature attacks Wizard, 540 does not trigger, subsequent chance to trigger against Creature improves to [1 - (1-.15)^4] = 47.80%; Incremental increase of 9.21.
(5) Creature attacks Wizard, 540 does not trigger, subsequent chance to trigger against Creature improves to [1 - (1-.15)^5] = 55.63%; Incremental increase of 7.83.

That is a good idea, I like that, especially because these are successful hits so, theoretically, by the time the chance to work really gets up there, you've lost a limb and have a rank 2 on your chest, etc. You should post that on the officials. Not that elemental spells will ever get any dev.

[crb]

That is bullshit and you know it. If sorcerers were given this spell the only thing that would stop you from defending it vehemently on the boards would be literally dying from how much you were masturbating to the thought of your new power.

Go read the sorcerer forum on the officials, either sorcerer spell subforum, or sorcerer developer's corner. Open it up so you see all historical posts, order by post name, find the posts by "aspen" count the posts where I shoot down others ideas for spells for sorcerers as too powerful. Believe me, they exist, though because simu's shitty forum system doesn't include a full history you won't find all of them.

I'm an ideologue, not a partisan.

[crb]

Estild said it ignores kroderine.

thats stupid, but look at the source...

[crb]

Completed my post on how I would have implemented. Doubt people would be fervently checking it, so I'm going to post the whole thing here again and feel important:

You ask



Also not sure how strapped for TPs clerics are either.

The answer is:

roflmao.

Clerics have absolutely the lowest training costs of any pure profession, and it isn't even close.

[crb]

As the player of a cleric I can see how people think the spell is OP. It's really not that big of a deal in PvE. Very rarely is anything I'm hunting going to hit me on the first swing or cast anyway. The part where it does provide an advantage is against maneuver attacks specifically aimed at squishing pures.

In fairness though, I'd say the duration could be lowered to like 5 mins flat (long enough for a rescue and drag in the Rift) *OR* it needs to be a percentage chance to activate, like the wizard and ranger equivalents. Having one cast last me 3 hours is a tad advantageous, I'll agree.

I applaud you for recognizing that it is OP. Will however point out that what you say is rather the whole point. It provides a (significant) advantage against the one weakness the profession has, resulting in a profession with, more or less, no weaknesses.

[Donquix]

Go read the sorcerer forum on the officials, either sorcerer spell subforum, or sorcerer developer's corner. Open it up so you see all historical posts, order by post name, find the posts by "aspen" count the posts where I shoot down others ideas for spells for sorcerers as too powerful. Believe me, they exist, though because simu's shitty forum system doesn't include a full history you won't find all of them.

I'm an ideologue, not a partisan.

I know your post history quite well. You're delusional and narcissistic, at best.

[Silvean]

I know your post history quite well. You're delusional and narcissistic, at best.

In this case, sorcerers know we can use this spell from scrolls and other items to our great benefit. Lore requirements or other adjustments may neuter this ability. Arguments based on the spell being OP are against sorcerer self interest. They may also be reasonable and in the best interests of the game.

I'm not going to delve more deeply into issues of game balance since I really only understand sorcerers. That said, if this spell is the new normal, 750 better summon Satan himself to ride on Silvean's shoulder like a parrot.

[Donquix]

In this case, sorcerers know we can use this spell from scrolls and other items to our great benefit. Lore requirements or other adjustments may neuter this ability. Arguments based on the spell being OP are against sorcerer self interest. They may also be reasonable and in the best interests of the game.

I'm not going to delve more deeply into issues of game balance since I really only understand sorcerers. That said, if this spell is the new normal, 750 better summon Satan himself to ride on Silvean's shoulder like a parrot.

I don't disagree the spell is overpowered. Just with viril's ability to be accurately self-aware.

I will say though it is a trap to look at spells in a vacuum. Class power as a whole can be overloaded into a single spell for some and more evenly distributed for others. Which is extra weird in gemstone because, really, every class has multiple viable options on how to hunt from 0-100+ already with the most basic of gear and be perfectly fine. CvC isn't a real concern so, meh. It's not like you're really competing with anyone. Even with this addition i wouldn't put clerics at the top of the food chain.

I stopped expecting or caring about the existence class balance in gs years ago. It's ultimately an effort in futility, if there are egregious problems the fixes are generally years away.

[crb]

In this case, sorcerers know we can use this spell from scrolls and other items to our great benefit. Lore requirements or other adjustments may neuter this ability. Arguments based on the spell being OP are against sorcerer self interest. They may also be reasonable and in the best interests of the game.

I'm not going to delve more deeply into issues of game balance since I really only understand sorcerers. That said, if this spell is the new normal, 750 better summon Satan himself to ride on Silvean's shoulder like a parrot.

Silvean brings up a salient point. By arguing to make it heavily lore modified I reduce the utility I as as a sorcerer would get from it off a scroll. So stick that in your pipe and smoke it Donquix.

[Methais]

Silvean brings up a salient point. By arguing to make it heavily lore modified I reduce the utility I as as a sorcerer would get from it off a scroll. So stick that in your pipe and smoke it Donquix.

Don't spells off of scrolls/MIU items that have lore requirements determine your effective lore by your AS/MIU skill?

[Kithus]

Wouldn't that just make it a much worse version of 540? As I said, I'm far less against it since realizing most of the time it isn't doing anything. Could you expand upon your exact reasons for your balance concerns? Maybe there's something I'm still not seeing.



Thread: Soul Ward (319)
How long have you two been dating? -Don


CRB and I? Years. Lovely candlelit dinners, drinking and discussing sorcerer mechanics. We often let Fallen join us too for a real sorcerer orgy. Sadly after hearing of the dirty dreams Silvean has been having about him, I just didn't feel right about it anymore. Cest la vie. Seriously though, I'm not real sure what point you were going for here. Aside from sounding like a moron.



Don't spells off of scrolls/MIU items that have lore requirements determine your effective lore by your AS/MIU skill?

No, they make use of your training in the relevant lore at I believe half effectiveness.

[Methais]

No, they make use of your training in the relevant lore at I believe half effectiveness.

I'm probably think of duration then.

Or shart velocity.

[crb]

Don't spells off of scrolls/MIU items that have lore requirements determine your effective lore by your AS/MIU skill?

you're thinking of duration, not lore benefits.

[crb]

Kerl and I agree on this issue. If Kerl and I agree on anything and you're on the other side, you're wrong. That should pretty much settle the argument in my opinion.

[Fallen]

We often let Fallen join us too for a real sorcerer orgy.

I just come to bang. Bang Bang Bang.

[Silvean]

I'm looking to start one of those Eyes Wide Shut style clubs called The Twisted Wand.

[Fallen]

I really don't think Silvergate would appreciate the blatant plagiarism.

[Allereli]

You slip your mask on, concealing your nose and part of your face from view, and tie its ivory silk cording behind your head.

[Androidpk]

I'm looking to start one of those Eyes Wide Shut style clubs called The Twisted Wand.

The Polished Bloodwood Wand sounds more appropriate.

[Malisai]

Other things not to forget, it works against spells like web and burrows, things that if you get hit are almost a guaranteed kill.

However remember that not everyone hunts in places where you can use blessed gems or spell tank.

[Archigeek]

Kerl and I agree on this issue. If Kerl and I agree on anything and you're on the other side, you're wrong. That should pretty much settle the argument in my opinion.

QFT