Let's talk shields...

[Tgo01]

So, yeah. Instead of using a lance for my warrior I was actually thinking of trying out shields and the new shield maneuvers. Should I go with a tower shield? If I went with a tower shield should I bother with dodging? What are some of the good shield maneuvers for a halfling warrior? Assuming halflings have some sort of disadvantage in using some of them...all of them?

[Mogonis]

The more Dodging you have, the smaller the shield you should use. I am 1x Dodge and use a medium. Choose a shield size based on RP and mechanics. Mediums are everywhere. Towers and bucklers a little rarer.

I don't have any Shield skills I have to activate. I'm lazy. I only do passive ones.

Medium Shield Focus mfocus 5
Shield Swiftness swiftness 3
Deflection Training dtraining 3
Deflection Mastery dmastery 5
Deflect the Elements deflect 3
Spell Block spellblock 3

[Androidpk]

Halflings get a penalty to shield manuevers.

[Jeril]

If you do shields I'd suggest the 3x shield 0x dodge route with a tower shield. As already stated offensive shield maneuvers would be rough as a halfling but if you've used charge any you'd be used to it. You also don't need to use offensive shield maneuvers but they can help and add more flavor. A good number of the maneuvers are passive so the small size of a halfling won't matter for them. Even if you don't want to use shield maneuvers offensively I'd still suggest 3 ranks of bash and charge each just to defend against them.

[Tgo01]

Awesome. Thanks for all of the advice so far everyone.

[Soulance]

My Pally is a bit like Mogonis' where I am too lazy to use the manual ones. I tried out shield bash and enjoyed it, but then found a spike shield and get a rough penalty for having it on my tower shield. We had a talk about shields on Lnet awhile back. While Pally's don't get this one, I am pretty sure Warriors do where you can actually deflect a spell and/or weapon back upon the one who sent it to you. I forget where I saw it, but someone posted where they deflected a spell or something and it instantly killed what he was hunting. Pretty sweet.

I like being able to use a tower shield to help prop me up so I don't get knock downs as often, also like to be able to deflect elemental spells (just can't send them back) and I forget what others I have passively running at the moment, but I love my tower shield. And I just picked up one at EG so I'm interested in trying it out. There's a nice 5x tower shield floating around from Black Waters or something like that which holds a weapon and has some fun scripts to it.

[prance1520]

I think shields are kinda eh if you just dabble in them, but if you build around it things get serious. 3x shield as a warrior makes you nearly immune to bolts and gives you plenty of points to get lifesaving things like eblock. Plus, if you REALLY go all in, don't underestimate how well blocking works against melee with tortoise stance. I have a few extra toys, but against things 3 levels over me:

Evade: swings = 2255, active = 20, percent = 0.89%
Blocks: swings = 2235, active = 1495, percent = 66.89%
Parries: swings = 740, active = 27, percent = 3.65%
Totals: swings = 2255, active = 1542, percent = 68.38%

[ThatDamnTep]

I know Tgo01 and I have discussed my all passive load out already, but I've been a little curious about how some other things work in practice.

If I was going to go with a non passive load out the stuff I'd be interested in would be shield pin, shield strike/mastery, spike mastery, and shield riposte, but I've never tried them out. Can anyone comment on them?

[prance1520]

I did shield riposte for a while, but I wasn't a big fan. Being put into RT when you weren't planning for it got me into more trouble than it was worth.

[Jace Solo]

Check out my sig. It is crazy good, especially in a warcamp.
That thing fires off when you're berserking. Which is just insane on it's own.

Maxed out Trample is warrior equiv to Ewave AND can be used in warcamps without worrying about the shroud.

[Latrinsorm]

The more Dodging you have, the smaller the shield you should use. I am 1x Dodge and use a medium. Choose a shield size based on RP and mechanics. Mediums are everywhere. Towers and bucklers a little rarer.From what I remember, the only optimal DS options are tower or small; large or medium are never the best choice. I don't recall the break point but I think it's really high, something like having more dodge than shield which as a warrior is unlikely. I quit before the second big wave of CMANs, they might have changed it.

[Roblar]

Regardless of CMAN options, medium can indeed be the best DS choice for a warrior if they are equally trained in Dodge & Shield Use - at least in an offensive stance which matters most. The range would be medium to tower (as more Shield Use than Dodge is prevalent among warriors).

Rogues and other professions that are likely to have more Dodge than Shield Use due to TP cost and armor AsG choice would likely have a range of small to medium, skewed towards the smallest - based on their actual training path.

There are other considerations as far as DS in other stances than offensive, total EBP opportunity (based on armor worn and CMANs) and ranged/bolt DS but overall medium is far from nonoptimal.

[Latrinsorm]

Regardless of CMAN options, medium can indeed be the best DS choice for a warrior if they are equally trained in Dodge & Shield Use - at least in an offensive stance which matters most. The range would be medium to tower (as more Shield Use than Dodge is prevalent among warriors).

Rogues and other professions that are likely to have more Dodge than Shield Use due to TP cost and armor AsG choice would likely have a range of small to medium, skewed towards the smallest - based on their actual training path.

There are other considerations as far as DS in other stances than offensive, total EBP opportunity (based on armor worn and CMANs) and ranged/bolt DS but overall medium is far from nonoptimal.Going off what's on krakiipedia, the modifiers are...
[0.85 1.00 1.15 1.30] for block DS and
[0.78 0.70 0.62 0.54] for evade DS, then stances go...
[0.50 0.60 0.70 0.80 0.90 1.00] for block and
[0.75 0.80 0.85 0.90 0.95 1.00] for evade.

If we set shield use = dodge ranks, then in defensive stance we simply sum across rows 1 and 2 and find...
[1.63 1.70 1.77 1.84]
so tower is best. In offensive stance we multiply row 1 by .5 and row 2 by .75 and find...
[1.01 1.03 1.04 1.06]
so tower is still best, and please also note that this is ignoring armor penalty to dodge, which only makes the tower case stronger.

Let us include the .83 dodge penalty due to full plate, call dodge ranks = X * shield ranks, and take offensive stance. If we do, then we find that tower is superior up to X = 1.5 and small is superior on everything higher. (The exact number is not nice, but going from 1.506x to 1.5061x switches immediately from tower to small.) In defensive stance, the tower shield reigns supreme until X = 2.25, and to be clear that means having more than twice as many dodge ranks as shield.

This is also assuming that the stat bonuses are equal, which I think in practice is a good assumption for warriors, and even in theory couldn't be on the same scale as the enormous disparity we've already seen.

[Jeril]

Going off what's on krakiipedia, the modifiers are...
[0.85 1.00 1.15 1.30] for block DS and
[0.78 0.70 0.62 0.54] for evade DS, then stances go...
[0.50 0.60 0.70 0.80 0.90 1.00] for block and
[0.75 0.80 0.85 0.90 0.95 1.00] for evade.

If we set shield use = dodge ranks, then in defensive stance we simply sum across rows 1 and 2 and find...
[1.63 1.70 1.77 1.84]
so tower is best. In offensive stance we multiply row 1 by .5 and row 2 by .75 and find...
[1.01 1.03 1.04 1.06]
so tower is still best, and please also note that this is ignoring armor penalty to dodge, which only makes the tower case stronger.

Let us include the .83 dodge penalty due to full plate, call dodge ranks = X * shield ranks, and take offensive stance. If we do, then we find that tower is superior up to X = 1.5 and small is superior on everything higher. (The exact number is not nice, but going from 1.506x to 1.5061x switches immediately from tower to small.) In defensive stance, the tower shield reigns supreme until X = 2.25, and to be clear that means having more than twice as many dodge ranks as shield.

This is also assuming that the stat bonuses are equal, which I think in practice is a good assumption for warriors, and even in theory couldn't be on the same scale as the enormous disparity we've already seen.

I'm too lazy to show the math but we've done test IG and Roblar had more DS with a small shield actually, just a hair more then a medium. This was also pre shield swiftness which lowers the dodge penalty of small/medium shields, giving them more of an edge on DS.

DS basically went with shield sizes, tower was the worst and small was the best, with large and medium falling in between where you'd expect.

[Latrinsorm]

I'm too lazy to show the math but we've done test IG and Roblar had more DS with a small shield actually, just a hair more then a medium. This was also pre shield swiftness which lowers the dodge penalty of small/medium shields, giving them more of an edge on DS.

DS basically went with shield sizes, tower was the worst and small was the best, with large and medium falling in between where you'd expect.I'd love to see logs and skills/stats! I'm reasonably sure I did the arithmetic right, which suggests that there's something wrong with what's on krakiipedia.

[Roblar]

Maybe you're not including the impact of Armor Use overtraining on enhancing Dodge skill, or enhancing the DS gain from smaller shield sizes by reducing the effective armor class?

Both Jeril's and my skills are posted in PostCap goals folder for reference.

[Haldrik]

What's the best(most damaging) weapon for shield use? Spears?

edit: whoops

[Jeril]

I'd love to see logs and skills/stats! I'm reasonably sure I did the arithmetic right, which suggests that there's something wrong with what's on krakiipedia.

Done just now: In order, small, medium, large, tower.

Mamu swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +70 vs DS: +494 with AvD: -23 + d100 roll: +79 = -368
A clean miss.

Mamu swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +70 vs DS: +491 with AvD: -23 + d100 roll: +41 = -403
A clean miss.

Mamu swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +70 vs DS: +484 with AvD: -23 + d100 roll: +49 = -388
A clean miss.

Mamu swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +70 vs DS: +479 with AvD: -23 + d100 roll: +39 = -393
A clean miss.

Name: Jeril Race: Giantman Profession: Warrior (not shown)
Gender: Male Age: 29 Expr: 30798126 Level: 100
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (40) ... 120 (50)
Constitution (CON): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)
Agility (AGI): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)

303 ranks of shield use and dodge
290 ranks of armor

[Jeril]

What's the best(most damaging) OHE edge weapon for shield use? Spears?

Morning stars.

[Latrinsorm]

Maybe you're not including the impact of Armor Use overtraining on enhancing Dodge skill, or enhancing the DS gain from smaller shield sizes by reducing the effective armor class?That would change the armor penalty from .83 to .91, which in turn moves the break point from 1.5 to 1.38, but that still requires more dodge ranks than shield ranks.
Done just now: In order, small, medium, large, tower.I need Int bonus and enchants too, please.

[Roblar]

Nice, maybe I should check again and shield size even smaller.

Imagine a more nimble (with or without enhancement) race for warrior would have even better results for small.

[Latrinsorm]

Done just now: In order, small, medium, large, tower.

Mamu swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +70 vs DS: +494 with AvD: -23 + d100 roll: +79 = -368
A clean miss.

Mamu swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +70 vs DS: +491 with AvD: -23 + d100 roll: +41 = -403
A clean miss.

Mamu swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +70 vs DS: +484 with AvD: -23 + d100 roll: +49 = -388
A clean miss.

Mamu swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +70 vs DS: +479 with AvD: -23 + d100 roll: +39 = -393
A clean miss.

Name: Jeril Race: Giantman Profession: Warrior (not shown)
Gender: Male Age: 29 Expr: 30798126 Level: 100
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (40) ... 120 (50)
Constitution (CON): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)
Agility (AGI): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)

303 ranks of shield use and dodge
290 ranks of armorAnd if you could take a shot with NO shield, that would be helpful too. :D

[Roblar]

What's the best(most damaging) OHE edge weapon for shield use? Spears?

If you really meant OHE instead of polearms or (the blunt morningstar):

Handaxe
Falchion
Broadsword

Last I checked anyway.

[Jeril]

And if you could take a shot with NO shield, that would be helpful too. :D

Silvean swings an onyx-hilted black vultite dagger at you!
AS: +37 vs DS: +435 with AvD: -18 + d100 roll: +69 = -347
A clean miss.

And
Intuition (INT): 83 (16) ... 83 (16)

Shield enchants were all 0.

[Haldrik]

If you really meant OHE instead of polearms or (the blunt morningstar):

Handaxe
Falchion
Broadsword

Last I checked anyway.

Errr... I'm not sure how OHE edged slipped in. I meant ANY weapon usable in one hand. e.g. spear

[Androidpk]

OHE edge.. are you drunk!?

[Tgo01]

OHE edge.. are you drunk!?

ATM machine and PIN number!!

[Latrinsorm]

Silvean swings an onyx-hilted black vultite dagger at you!
AS: +37 vs DS: +435 with AvD: -18 + d100 roll: +69 = -347
A clean miss.

And
Intuition (INT): 83 (16) ... 83 (16)

Shield enchants were all 0.Thanks. Something is seriously wrong with the combat system.

1. Looking at just the shield hits, we have gaps of 3, 7, and 5... but the shield modifiers are (supposedly) evenly spaced: the dodge penalties are increments of .08 (scaled evenly by armor penalty and stance) and the shield bonuses are increments of .15 (scaled by stance). GS does use integer math, but those are enormous errors for just rounding to explain.

2. The bigger steps should have the bigger result because your starting values are so close (327 dodge, 320 shield with stats), and that should be shield by a wide margin: .08 * .89 * .75 = .0534, .15 * .5 = .075. But dodge dominates, which makes no sense.

I noticed you have a big strength enhancive. Could you get me two stance defensive medium shield shots, one with the enhancive and one without?

[Jeril]

Thanks. Something is seriously wrong with the combat system.

1. Looking at just the shield hits, we have gaps of 3, 7, and 5... but the shield modifiers are (supposedly) evenly spaced: the dodge penalties are increments of .08 (scaled evenly by armor penalty and stance) and the shield bonuses are increments of .15 (scaled by stance). GS does use integer math, but those are enormous errors for just rounding to explain.

2. The bigger steps should have the bigger result because your starting values are so close (327 dodge, 320 shield with stats), and that should be shield by a wide margin: .08 * .89 * .75 = .0534, .15 * .5 = .075. But dodge dominates, which makes no sense.

I noticed you have a big strength enhancive. Could you get me two stance defensive medium shield shots, one with the enhancive and one without?

The STR enhancive was just me using surge because I'm still carrying around too much stuff after EG.

[Tgo01]

So my shield using halfling warrior should train in blunts so he can use morning stars? Speaking from a strictly min/max position.

[Jeril]

So my shield using halfling warrior should train in blunts so he can use morning stars? Speaking from a strictly min/max position.

Yes.

[Androidpk]

Blunt training.. hehe

[Latrinsorm]

The STR enhancive was just me using surge because I'm still carrying around too much stuff after EG.Just as good then. My guess is that shield ranks are scaled down to some degree, and seeing what kind of extra DS you get from your extra 10 bonus would verify that if it's less than 2. We'd need to do a lot more work to see how far they're scaled down, but at least it would explain why dodge (and therefore small shield) is doing so much better than expected.

[Tgo01]

Let's talk weapon bonding for a minute.

Can my warrior be bonded to more than one weapon at a time? If I wanted to become bonded to another weapon is it just as simple as going to a shrine, kneeling and typing cman bond pray again? I don't have to like unlearn weapon bonding or anything, right?

[Androidpk]

Can only bond to one weapon. When you want to bond to a new weapon as long as it is the same weapon type you won't have to mess around with Cmans, though you'll have to go through the bonding process all over again.

[Tgo01]

Can only bond to one weapon. When you want to bond to a new weapon as long as it is the same weapon type you won't have to mess around with Cmans, though you'll have to go through the bonding process all over again.

So since I'm bonding to a morning star at the moment, if I wanted to bond to a different morning star I just have to start the bonding process over again?

[Warriorbird]

So since I'm bonding to a morning star at the moment, if I wanted to bond to a different morning star I just have to start the bonding process over again?

In essence. Just takes time.

[Androidpk]

So since I'm bonding to a morning star at the moment, if I wanted to bond to a different morning star I just have to start the bonding process over again?

Yes. Don't forget to break the first bond. And do it in person, no one likes to hear about a break up via text message.

[Riltus]

Formula's on KP are accurate;there is no scaling of shield ranks.



Shield Size|Shield DS|Dodge DS|S+D Total Calc DS|Jeril's DS
SMALL|110|169|279|494
MEDIUM|126|152|278|491
LARGE|142|130|272|484
TOWER|158|107|265|479

Shield DS Calculations: Base 320; +20 shield bonus

Small: [(320 * 0.85 * 0.50)/1.5] + 20 = 110
Medium: [(320 * 1.00 * 0.50)/1.5] + 20 = 126
Large: [(320 * 1.15 * 0.50)/1.5] + 20 = 142
Tower: [(320 * 1.30 * 0.50)/1.5] + 20 = 158

Dodge DS Calculations: Base 327, -5 large shield, -10 tower

Small: (327 * 0.89 * 0.78 * 0.75) = 169
Medium: (327 * 0.89 * 0.70 * 0.75) = 152
Large: (327 * 0.89 * 0.62 * 0.75) - 5 = 130
Tower: (327 * 0.89 * 0.54 * 0.75) - 10 = 107

1. Armor hindrance factor: 0.89
2. Truncate after each operation

Jeril total DS sans shield: 435 DS

Total DS w/small shield: 494
494 - 279 (S+D) = 216

Dodge DS w/o shield: 327 * .89 * .75 = 218

216 + 218 = 434 calc vs 435 actual DS

With 200 ranks dodge (stance OFF):



Shield Size|Shield DS|Dodge DS|S+D Total Calc DS
SMALL|110|117|227
MEDIUM|126|105|231
LARGE|142|88|230
TOWER|158|71|229

With 100 ranks dodge (stance OFF):



Shield Size|Shield DS|Dodge DS|S+D Total Calc DS
SMALL|110|64|174
MEDIUM|126|57|183
LARGE|142|46|188
TOWER|158|34|192


Mark

[Tgo01]

So if I'm understanding this correctly; I should use a small shield if I have equal ranks of dodge and shield use, a medium shield if I have a 3/2 ratio between shield use and dodge, and a tower shield if I have a 3/1 ratio between shield use and dodge?

The numbers look pretty close either way in the 3/2 ratio one.

[Jeril]

So if I'm understanding this correctly; I should use a small shield if I have equal ranks of dodge and shield use, a medium shield if I have a 3/2 ratio between shield use and dodge, and a tower shield if I have a 3/1 ratio between shield use and dodge?

The numbers look pretty close either way in the 3/2 ratio one.

That is how it looks, but with how close they are at 3/2 I'd suggest a tower shield unless DS is your main focus and you tack on shield swiftness.

[Latrinsorm]

/1.5That's what I was missing. Mystery solved!

[Archigeek]

The trouble with all these calc's is that it's a lot easier to understand the value of DS than it is to understand the value of EBP. On the very big plus side, isn't it great to have so many options these days?

[Jeril]

The trouble with all these calc's is that it's a lot easier to understand the value of DS than it is to understand the value of EBP. On the very big plus side, isn't it great to have so many options these days?

EBP can be useful sometimes but I value the ability to completely not worry about it through having a high DS.

[Archigeek]

EBP can be useful sometimes but I value the ability to completely not worry about it through having a high DS.

EBP comes into play as often as the threshold difference between getting hit and not. I'd argue it comes into play more for a warrior actually. Your mileage may vary though, based on equipment etc.