unbalance flares

[gilchristr]

Took the new unbalance flares from EG (yea!) out to forest trolls and I got some surprising (to me) results. In about a dozen flare activations, I had ZERO knockdowns. I had the critical table open and I was reading the messages... most of the activations were RANK 1!, which is no knockdown. There were only maybe a couple shots that were greater than RANK 1 on the flare, these happened to hit the arm, which was no knockdown per the table.

After seeing no knockdowns from about a dozen activations of knockout flares, some questions are begged:
- was this an exceptional string I witnessed
- do knockdown flares just suck and nobody told me :) [to be fair I never asked]
- are large creates resistant to knockdown flares (forest trolls are large, per some observed penalties on sstrike)
- are creatures with light armor resistant to knockdown flares
- does crit padding lower the crit rank from knockdown flares?


Looking forward to reading some comments, thx!

[Androidpk]

I've found unbalance flares to be mediocre. Grapple is much better for knockdowns.

[Riltus]

It's the target's natural padding (resistance) to the damage type, not the flare. Divide the damage of the flare by 5. Generally, in the absence of padding, that result will be equal to the critical rank up to rank 6 criticals. Higher torso criticals (ranks 7, 8, 9) and sometimes rank 9s on other body locations will deviate from that general rule.

Example:

1. Dark Orc

>incant 110You utter a light chant and raise your hands, beckoning the lesser spirits to aid you with the Unbalance spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a dark orc.
CS: +203 - TD: +39 + CvA: 0 + d100: +54 == +218
Warding failed!
... 35 points of damage!
The dark orc stunned by strike to hand.
It is knocked to the ground!
The dark orc is stunned!

Rank 7 unbalance critical (35/5 = 7)

2. Forest Troll

>pre 110You utter a light chant and raise your hands, beckoning the lesser spirits to aid you with the Unbalance spell...
Your spell is ready.
>cast trollYou gesture at a forest troll.
CS: +203 - TD: +57 + CvA: +20 + d100: +92 == +258
Warding failed!
... 45 points of damage!
The forest troll stumbles forward, off balance.
It is knocked to the ground!
The forest troll is stunned!

Only a rank 3 unbalance critical against the forest troll.


Mark

[gilchristr]

In terms the resistance groups (impact, crush, slash, etc.), do you know which one corresponds to the resistance exhibited by the forest troll.

With the damage being shown, and your observed divide by 5 rule, it seems that it should only take on flare and a little math to figure out which creatures have the resistance, and which don't. I might test hill trolls tonight. Thanks Mark.

[Rheisia]

That's funny- I've got both unbalance and grapple flares. I can't say I've noticed a huge difference between them (though grapple is edging out unbalance at least a little).

Unbalance is its own crit table, btw. So the resistance you're seeing is likely either generic crit padding or specific to unbalance. (Though someone who's more technical with all of this may come in and correct me)

[gilchristr]

I read another one of Mark's posts, and I doubt its generic crit padding. My reasoning is that 1) its Mark, 2) Mark said that there is a mostly repeatable observation of 1 rank per 5 points of damage, and 3) I have observed "generic" crit padding on so many monsters that #2 would not be a mostly repeatable observation if "generic" crit padding protected was the cause.

EDIT - in another post, there was an observation of grimswarm giants and trolls removing 4 ranks of a flare result, and orcs removing 2 ranks of a flare result. Teh other post didn't say it, but I think this was referring to all flares OTHER THAN fire or acid. This was specifically in discuss of grimswarm. I don't know if forest trolls are grimswarm, but that would explain it.


EDIT2 - here is the reference to the other thead ... comment by droit:
"On virtually every other creature, the crit rank dealt is equal to the crit damage divided by 5. Grimswarm giants and orcs reduce the result by 4 crit ranks for every hit. When I did my testing on PCs wearing MCP armor, the result was very different. The crit padding actually reduced the amount of crit damage that was inflicted, but the damage/5 equation still held true.

...

Yes, padding is variable, but that's even more proof that there is something else going on. The crit reduction for 616 is entirely constant: 4 ranks reduced for giants and orcs and 2 reduced for trolls, every time. Warchiefs and shamans reduce it by 6 ranks. "

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?57517-Looking-to-test-possible-reduction-on-flares

[Rheisia]

All this analysis and testing....if Gemstone players had combined forces to use their powers for good, we'd have cured cancer years ago. Instead, we figured out crit tables.

[Donquix]

We already did that, just smoke the reefer. Cures your cancer.

[Aganii]

Unbalance flares are just mediocre, imo, especially if you are looking to cause knowdowns. I experienced the same frustration when using shield strike (based on unbalance crit table) and wondering the point when several crit ranks and locations do not cause knockdowns.

[Kithus]

Also have to remember there are quite a few creatures immune to unbalance criticals that are not immune to grapple. Grapple is the superior flare.

[gilchristr]

Went back to forest trolls using a sonic weapon. Checked the sonic weapon flare and it was 4 ranks below what one would have expected from damage (25 point flare was doing rank 1).

Then, I tried different creatures, including war trolls, cave trolls, bears, shelfae soldiers, and shelfae chieftans. I saw what looked like 2 ranks below what one would have expected one these, for both flare types. So 25 point flares were doing rank 3.

In conclusion, it seems that all flares operate the same way with regard to the crit table (no surprise here).

I haven't tested grapple, but its probably the same as unbalance and sonic flares.

[gilchristr]

Confirmed that the effect discussed above is NOT from general crit padding. Because on pra'eda, which I know have crit padding, all flares followed the general rule mark pointed out (1 rank for each 5 points of damage, not reduced).


EDIT - also confirmed that fire flares work the same was as unbalance flares on forest trolls. (got a 40 point damage hit that was only rank 3 or so on the table, and a 15 point flare that was rank 1.

[gilchristr]

I went back to forest trolls to try these "weighted" attuned eblade flares. I chose the earth element.

The results were not much different than non-weighted flares mentioned in this rest of this thread. I scored about a dozen flares and checking the messaging against the relevant crit table, and the highest crit rank I saw was 2. I saw several rank 1's ... cant remember if there were any ranks 0's. So in terms of rank, seemed pretty similar to any other non-attuned flare.

As an aside, it was very annoying seeing the "reminder" eblade "uses" consumed by parries. It seems pointless to debit your eblade count for each parry (why?), and annoying. Like the messaging is annoying to read, and I dont understand what is the need for the delta from a spell like bless where the blesses are not consumed on a parry (well correct me if I am wrong, but I dont remember seeing the reminder message on blessed weapons.)