What makes a subject taboo?

[Blazing247]

I don't want this post to come across as a cry of censorship- I am asking out of pure curiousity.

Why are some subjects...ok let's not beat around the bush... Why is the subject of homosexuality and the context in which we refer to it so scrutinized? Why must we walk on eggshells around a few choice words, whose meanings have been diluted over time and stained by colloquial usage? Is the word fag really that offensive that any and all references to it must be removed? I think acting in such a manner empowers the word and makes it more harmful than need be.

Bob jokingly posted a wesbite the other day that contained this all powerful word, even though he was not doing so in a hateful manner nor was the site offensive, and it was deleted by Tsa'ah along with my reference to it. Is it a more powerful word than asshole, motherfucker, cunt, bitch, dickhead, etc?

I would be willing to be that the majority of people whom make reference to the word fag do not mean it in a negative connotation in regards to homosexuals. Fag/faggot, as referenced by a few slang dictionaries, is a term used in reference to a person who is disliked. I've called many straight men a fag. I've called many women a bitch. Surely I am not implying that these women are female dogs, anymore than I am implying that these men are homosexuals and that is the reason I dislike them.

I hope that this post is not deleted because it contains the word fag, and rather that we can discuss this topic like adults. I just don't get the reasoning behind placing so much power behind three letters of text. It seems silly to me, and unfortunately, it seems to be the current crusade on this board. Is it one of the Seven Dirty Words now? I refer you to George Carlin on that matter.

[Sean]

To my understanding the word fag is taboo because it promotes the idea that being gay is bad. Since it is linked to the concept of being gay to imply that someone is being a faggot or acting like a fag adds a whole negative connotation to the concept of being gay.

[Bobmuhthol]

Apparently Tsa`ah thinks I was trying to be clever and avoid it being deleted by using the URL www.fag.org as a front to call someone a fag. That's not the case. I only use clever because that was his word of choice.

And may I say, I didn't know what to think.

I can only hope this post gets deleted because I'm being clever again!!

[HarmNone]

If I delete or edit for the word "fag", or other defaming words like it, I try not to do so unless the word is used in a denigrating manner and directed at another person. Your post above does not use the word in such a manner toward someone else, so I would not delete it. Not having seen the examples of which you speak, and not having edited those posts myself, I can't speak to the issue of those specific posts. Perhaps, you could U2U the moderator who deleted said posts and ask him/her for their reasoning?

HarmNone

[Betheny]

If you don't abuse it or try to aggrivate people, you really do have a lot of leeway.

[Marl]

It is only offensive in the US I would say, isn't a cigarette called a fag in france? Also I would say "nigger" is a considered a worse word anywhere you go. All depends on where you are and how it is used in most cases.

[Artha]

What makes a subject taboo?

Special interest groups.

[Bobmuhthol]

From: Tsa`ah
To: Bobmuhthol
Sent: 10-5-2004 at 03:37 AM
Message: Although you may think yourself "clever" posting www.fag.org, the post was off topic and had no relevance to the thread.

Deleted.

Knock it off.

[HarmNone]

After reading that U2U, Bob, it doesn't look to me like your post was edited for using the word "fag", but for being off-topic. :shrug:

[Blazing247]

HN, let's be honest here. In a given thread, 75% of posts are off topic. He was targetting Bob because he's...Bob. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<After reading that U2U, Bob, it doesn't look to me like your post was edited for using the word "fag", but for being off-topic.>>

No, it's because it was Tsa`ah. Here's what my U2U inbox looks like.

Post deleted. Tsa%60ah 10-5-2004 at 03:37 AM Read
Edited Post HarmNone 10-3-2004 at 02:31 PM Read
Re: Post deleted. Tsa%60ah 9-27-2004 at 06:48 PM Read
hahahaha you suck at scripts Artha 9-27-2004 at 06:40 PM Read
Post deleted. Tsa%60ah 9-27-2004 at 06:23 PM Read
Deleted post HarmNone 9-23-2004 at 06:59 AM Read
Post edited Tsa%60ah 9-21-2004 at 07:04 AM Read

[Bobmuhthol]

This also appears in my U2U inbox, but has nothing to do with anything.

From: HarmNone
To: Bobmuhthol
Sent: 9-12-2004 at 12:35 AM
Message: Given the right opportunity, and good bait, Bob will babble until he proves just how ignorant he really is! I love it! :rofl:

[Snapp]

It's really not hard to follow the very few amount of rules set here. I don't understand why it's such a problem for some of you.

[Blazing247]

Snapp- way to totally disregard the entire point of this topic. I'm questioning why the rule is as it is. I never said, nor have I shown, that I have a problem following it. I know this topic is personal to you, which is all the better for discussing.

[Bobmuhthol]

Here's a reason: the last time one of my posts was edited by someone not Tsa`ah or HarmNone was April 23.

[HarmNone]

Yup. We're after you, Bob. It's a freaking conspiracy!:D:

As far as your question, Blazing, the rules for posting on these boards are what they are because Kranar says they are. That's the best answer I can give you.

Things (and people) that present themselves as problems are often discussed "behind the scenes" in the Mods folders. From those discussions, rules develop to help keep the boards running as Kranar would like to see them run. Those of us who moderate the boards are responsible to see that posters abide by these rules. We work for Kranar, so to speak. Hence, if we see something that violates a posting rule, it is our responsibility to deal with it.

That's really the best answer I am able to give you.

HarmNone

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Blazing247
Is it a more powerful word than asshole, motherfucker, cunt, bitch, dickhead, etc?

The question is irrelevent because the comparison you make is incorrect. Fag being used as an insult does not equate to bitch. Compare it to epithets that are closer in intended meaning such as nigger and kike.

Raven

I actually knew this one butch lesbian who was down with being called words like "fag" and "dyke," because she said that was simply what she was, and it "hardened her." A lot of it, at least from my experiences in talking to the college homosexuals, is context, context, context.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Blazing247
HN, let's be honest here. In a given thread, 75% of posts are off topic. He was targetting Bob because he's...Bob. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Honest is exactly what I'm endeavoring to be, Blazing. I cannot speak for Tsa`ah's intent, and neither can you. Only Tsa`ah can do that. You and I can merely speculate.

I do recall a post from Kranar in which the comment was made (I don't remember the exact wording) that if you are a known antagonizer on these boards your posts will be more closely scrutinized. That is, most definitely, true. However, that does not mean that you, or I, know of any ulterior motive in Tsa`ah's editing of that specific post.

If we're going to be honest, let's also be fair.

HarmNone

[Brattt8525]

Well AIMHO this board is prettyu forgiving in all areas, hell most of us can toast someone at will, without fear of any slap on the hand. I think the few tijmes they decide to edit a post, that post indeed crosses a line, which just should be left alone.

Sheesh people, give you a mile and you want a million.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<I think the few tijmes they decide to edit a post, that post indeed crosses a line, which just should be left alone.

Sheesh people, give you a mile and you want a million.>>

The war in Iraq is an uncommon thing. Most of the time we're not at war, so why are people complaining because it happened this one time? They should just be happy that they live in the United States.

[Brattt8525]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<I think the few tijmes they decide to edit a post, that post indeed crosses a line, which just should be left alone.

Sheesh people, give you a mile and you want a million.>>

The war in Iraq is an uncommon thing. Most of the time we're not at war, so why are people complaining because it happened this one time? They should just be happy that they live in the United States.

I have had one drink too many tonight, as this almost made sense to me...hmm maybe another dink will make that feeling go away.....

[Blazing247]

<:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Blazing247
Is it a more powerful word than asshole, motherfucker, cunt, bitch, dickhead, etc?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The question is irrelevent because the comparison you make is incorrect. Fag being used as an insult does not equate to bitch. Compare it to epithets that are closer in intended meaning such as nigger and kike.

Raven>

It is not irrelevent, I was merely making a general comparison. I am talking about words in general, and how none of them should be taboo in an adult society. I think it's shortsighted to single out a word and say, this word is bad, but this word is okay and so is this one, even though 75 years ago they weren't. Either you are against profanity and words of hatred and you think they are all "bad", or you aren't. There is no difference in me calling you a motherfucking cocksucker and me calling you a fucking faggot. Prove to me that there is, other than personal feelings on the subject. You can't. Exactly.

[Latrinsorm]

Guilt of the ruling class makes a word taboo. However, I've always thought that the eggshell treatment you describe doesn't help anything. I would much rather people not say a hurtful word because it is hurtful as opposed to it will make them look bad and/or get them punished. And if we're not endeavoring to spread peace and love, what's the point?

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Blazing247
It is not irrelevent, I was merely making a general comparison.

A general comparison though between things that are not comparable. The terms are not on the same level. Compare fag to nigger and kike and you have a real argument. My comment about it being irrelevant was specifically geared to the comparison with your examples.

Now, if you think nigger and kike and other insulting terms commonly used by bigots to refer to a group of people who share a single attribute should all be allowed as well as fag, then that's fine. Your examples are on the same playing field while bitch, bastard, etc are not catch all terms used to put down an entire group of people.

Further, that there is some slang definition that downplays the severity of the insult does not make its use any less offensive.

Raven

[Blazing247]

My point is that 50, 75, even 100 years ago, the words bitch, asshole, motherfucker, etc. held a lot more power than they do now. One thing I will never understand about the gay movement is your tendency to refer to yourselves as a minority, case in point- you are comparing the word faggot, which has nothing to do with someones religion or race, to the words kike and nigger. It is you who are making faulty comparisons, my friend.

First of all, you aren't a minority. The classical definition of minority is a group who differs racially or politically from a larger group of which it is part. Homosexuals are not a minority, they are a deviant subculture. You are as much a minority (and therefore your argument is as equally applicable) as, say, a redhead, or a natural blonde.

[HarmNone]

I've got to wonder, personally, why a discussion like this is even necessary. Using the word "fag" is not a requirement for posting on a message board, or speaking to, or of, people in daily life. Using any of the demeaning words we find here so often is not necessary. For people who have a decent command of English, and an IQ in the triple digits, one would think better words could be found with which to express oneself.

Then again, that's just my opinon....

HarmNone, musing again.....so, shoot me! :D

[Blazing247]

A lot of things aren't necessary, HN. That isn't, and hasn't ever been, a good reason to not question them. The intent of my post wasn't to ask why it isn't allowed on just this message board, but why is it taboo in real life day to day conversations? If you don't care, then don't read.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Blazing247
Homosexuals are not a minority, they are a deviant subculture.

In your opinion: the basis of which is not only quite wrong but way beyond the scope of this thread so I'll leave that specific point alone. ;p



Originally posted by HarmNone
I've got to wonder, personally, why a discussion like this is even necessary.

I've always wondered the same thing especially with the (relatively) recent trend of calling something 'gay'. I don't give a shit what the slang is. The origin of the meaning is insulting. So how hard is it to choose a different word? But no, you get an entire argument about how it means this, that and the other things and no one SHOULD find it offensive blah blah blah.

It's not hard to take a moment, show a little consideration for someone else and not offend someone. I can only assume they really don't give a shit if they do or not and probably enjoy getting a reaction on top of it.

Raven

[SpunGirl]

Bitch, cunt, cocksucker - that stuff doesn't compare. Bitch IS a slang term for an evil woman. It's an insult at the core, when used in slang fashion. Same for other insulting terms.

What's the "slang" meaning of fag? It's a word used to describe a homosexual person, but when you call someone a "motherfucking fag," you're clearly using it in an insulting fashion.

Fag (normal usage) = Gay Person
Bitch (normal usage) = Female Dog

Fag ("slang" usage) = Gay Person
Bitch (slang usage) = Evil Woman

Using a word to describe a gay person in a derogatory fashion is, indeed, as offensive as using a word to describe an ethnic or religious group in a derogatory fashion.

-K

[Blazing247]

<I've always wondered the same thing especially with the (relatively) recent trend of calling something 'gay'. I don't give a shit what the slang is. The origin of the meaning is insulting.>

You forgot to add "to me", onto the end. That is the entire basis of this topic. I don't find it insulting. I also don't mind when someone calls me a Guido, or WOP, or whatever tickles your fancy. You know why? Because they are just words. Didn't your mommy ever give you the sticks and stones speech growing up?

I don't say it for a reaction. I'm pretty sure most of the people who use it on the boards don't use it for a reaction. It's a word, and like any other word, the intent behind it's use would be for communication. Your reaction to the use of the word makes it an ugly word.

[Blazing247]

Lemme see if I got this straight Spun.

A = "Bitch IS a slang term for an evil woman. It's an insult at the core, when used in slang fashion."

B = "you call someone a "motherfucking fag," you're clearly using it in an insulting fashion."

Using the greatness of your logic, I've deduced that both fag AND bitch are insults. What's your point? You'r going to sit here and say one is more offensive than the other? Are you fucking kidding me?

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Blazing247
A lot of things aren't necessary, HN. That isn't, and hasn't ever been, a good reason to not question them. The intent of my post wasn't to ask why it isn't allowed on just this message board, but why is it taboo in real life day to day conversations? If you don't care, then don't read.

Heh. Well, Blazing, I don't have the choice. I have to read. It's my job. ;)

As to why use of such words is taboo in real life day to day conversations, I'd say it's because it offends a lot of people. Things that become taboo usually become so because they are harmful in some way, either through insult or injury.

It's interesting that, to some, insulting terms that used to be considered in very poor taste, even forbidden, in "polite society" have become almost accepted. I don't know that I can honestly say that I see that as a good thing. Having respect for the feelings of others is not a fault, in my opinion. It's indicative of a thoughtful individual.

There's never a problem with questioning something. Questioning is a good thing, as far as I'm concerned. If one listens to the responses one gets while questioning, one has the opportunity to learn. Can't knock that! :)

HarmNone

[Blazing247]

Different things are insulting to different people. Where do you draw the line? Who makes the decision on what is so insulting that it needs to be censored? How does one even weight such a decision?

[Blazing247]

And, because I've wanted to use this smiley for awhile...


http://forum.gsplayers.com/images/upload/John's%20Shit/551.gif

[Latrinsorm]

The difference, Blazing, is that using "fag" as an insult means that there is something inherently insulting with being considered gay. Just as if you were to use "nigger" as a derogatory term for your white/Asian/nonblack acquaintances. "Fag" isn't only used to try to insult gay people, at least in my experience. I never heard someone being called a "mick" that wasn't Irish, for instance, but I commonly heard straight folks being called "fag" as an insult.

[Blazing247]

And you never called, or heard someone called, a Polack when they did something stupid? :yawn:

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Blazing247
And you never called, or heard someone called, a Polack when they did something stupid? :yawn: Only once. I used to have a temper, what can I say.

edit: But even then, the difference in frequency is still beyond hefty.

[Edited on 10-6-2004 by Latrinsorm]

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Blazing247
Where do you draw the line? Who makes the decision on what is so insulting that it needs to be censored? How does one even weight such a decision?

Who makes the decision? Everyone as a whole. Go around telling people you find being called pale (or any word) offensive. If you get several million people to agree with you, then maybe the rest of the country will listen. Even without those millions of others, people very well might refrain from calling you pale out of simple respect.

That's how it's determined. Enough people find it offensive and insulting and say so. And then out of simple respect and common decency, everyone else - even if they know the 'sticks and stones rule' - say okay, it's not cool to keep it up.

It's pretty simple. Many people find it offensive. You might not agree. You don't need to and don't have veto power over it. What is within your control though is whether to not to be offensive.

And just to make it clear, that's a general 'you' meaning anyone and everyone and it applies to any epithet. I might not find something offensive that someone else does. I can though deliberately refrain from being insulting.

Raven

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Blazing247
Different things are insulting to different people. Where do you draw the line? Who makes the decision on what is so insulting that it needs to be censored? How does one even weight such a decision?

Here, the decision is made by Kranar, based on the discussions I mentioned previously, and on his own wishes for the direction of these boards. As to how he weights such decisions, you'd have to ask him.

In our everyday lives, what is taboo is decided, it seems to me, by the company in which one finds oneself. In some groups, the use of derogatory terms is not considered taboo. Yet, those same terms used while in the company of another group would get you ousted in a heartbeat. So, I guess the lines are drawn by the prevailing rules of the group with whom you are associating, whether those rules be tacit or clearly stated.

[Marl]

So, just curious, is it ok for homosexuals to call each other fags?
Same as it is ok for girls playing around to say "you are suck a bitch" or blacks to say "whats up my nigger?" or even polacks to say "....." well i dunno what polacks say but you get the picture.
If it is ok what the hell is the difference other than the usage?

[Bobmuhthol]

The answer to all of those questions is no, Marluxian.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Marluxian
So, just curious, is it ok for homosexuals to call each other fags?

Depends who you ask. Some have no problem with it. I don't like it and so don't do it.

Raven

[Chadj]

YOU'RE ALL STUPID LITTLE @*$S!

[Edited on 10-6-2004 by Tsa ah]

[Blazing247]

<posted on 10-5-2004 at 10:30 PM Post ID: 250370

YOU'RE ALL STUPID LITTLE @*$S!

[Edited on 10-6-2004 by Tsa ah]>

Look at the time of this post. Chadj loses. :bye:

[Latrinsorm]

Forget the time, look at how he mispunctuated the handle. Tut tut.