Hurling builds

[Tumbadoo]

I know there are several out there with hurling builds and since I'm looking to go in that direction with a warrior I'm hoping I might get some advice.

[Astray]

Don't throw 2handers. You'll tear your rectum.

[Archigeek]

It's easier with a fancy hurler, but can be done without. I did a youngin who mostly hurled feras daggers and such. It's a chore if you have to pick stuff up all the time, and I'm not sure for how long it would be entertaining, but in the short term it was. So finding the right hurler is an important part of your process. Try it out and if you like it, then invest in equipment.

2x hurling
2x perception
2x whatever weapon you are hurling, unless it's specifically hurling (ohe/ohb/pole).
2x armor
2x PF
2x CM
1x brawl, or more, so that you have some defense after you've hurled.
2x shield use.
.5x MOC

You could shave some of the ohe/ohb/pole if you're fully committed to hurling, but in my opinion that takes away half the fun.

Enjoy.

[Jeril]

It's easier with a fancy hurler, but can be done without. I did a youngin who mostly hurled feras daggers and such. It's a chore if you have to pick stuff up all the time, and I'm not sure for how long it would be entertaining, but in the short term it was. So finding the right hurler is an important part of your process. Try it out and if you like it, then invest in equipment.

2x hurling
2x perception
2x whatever weapon you are hurling, unless it's specifically hurling (ohe/ohb/pole).
2x armor
2x PF
2x CM
1x brawl, or more, so that you have some defense after you've hurled.
2x shield use.
.5x MOC

You could shave some of the ohe/ohb/pole if you're fully committed to hurling, but in my opinion that takes away half the fun.

Enjoy.

Just for DS it would be better to train dodge up to 1x after brawling is 1x, then shield use to 3x once dodge is at 1x.

[Archigeek]

Just for DS it would be better to train dodge up to 1x after brawling is 1x, then shield use to 3x once dodge is at 1x.

You can train to 2x shield use for the cost of 1x dodge. I'd go that route, unless I was anning to use poles, then I might go the other way.

[Jeril]

You can train to 2x shield use for the cost of 1x dodge. I'd go that route, unless I was anning to use poles, then I might go the other way.

You already have 2x shield use in your plan, unless you meant 1x but that seems unlikely.

[Archigeek]

Misunderstood what you meant. I agree, 1x dodge before 3x shield use.

[Jeril]

Misunderstood what you meant. I agree, 1x dodge before 3x shield use.

I'd also put those two in front of going beyond 1x brawling in terms of DS, if they are doing it to use UAC that would be different though.

[Archigeek]

Hurling is not an easy path. There are a lot of skills that provide pretty measurable benefit, but aren't critical, and this makes it a difficult build to start out with. Combine that with the mechanical faults of the hurling system and you're up against the wall if you can't afford gear that circumvents those faults. For these reasons most people who hurl have either a decent bank roll or a lot of EXP around which to build, or more likely both.

All that said, I did run a youngster as a hurler in RR, using mostly feras daggers to start, and had a good time. It was a challenge, but doable.

So back to brawl, I never really had to worry about the math. I've always felt that any warrior who can't throw a punch isn't worth his salt, so whether or not to train in brawling wasn't ever really something I considered. My advice would be to find a good weapon if you can afford it, and then take a look at the hurling AS formula and create a build around the skills needed for that. If you're starting from scratch you'll find yourself stretched, but it can still be fun.

[nocturnix]

Hi, I am leveling a pure hurler right now as well. I am about to fixskill into hurling today (once I hit 25), up until now i've still been swinging my claid. I only rolled this character once I finally got a nice hurling weapon, which was quite expensive. That being said, I had some questions of my own:

My hurler is not a Warrior, and he will be hurling from hiding.

My plan so far is to train in Shield, ambush, s&h, and hurling maybe some dodge and MOC eventually but he is still young. I noticed for your warrior hurler you plan to train in the weapon skill you are hurling. I assume this is for extra defense before you hurl your weapon? And then brawling for after you hurl it? My question is...since I am also a magic user, I wont have alot of skill points left over for Weapon/Brawling. Can I skip this without penalizing my DS too much? I think I will 2x shield use. And little/no dodge for now.

[Jeril]

Hi, I am leveling a pure hurler right now as well. I am about to fixskill into hurling today (once I hit 25), up until now i've still been swinging my claid. I only rolled this character once I finally got a nice hurling weapon, which was quite expensive. That being said, I had some questions of my own:

My hurler is not a Warrior, and he will be hurling from hiding.

My plan so far is to train in Shield, ambush, s&h, and hurling maybe some dodge and MOC eventually but he is still young. I noticed for your warrior hurler you plan to train in the weapon skill you are hurling. I assume this is for extra defense before you hurl your weapon? And then brawling for after you hurl it? My question is...since I am also a magic user, I wont have alot of skill points left over for Weapon/Brawling. Can I skip this without penalizing my DS too much? I think I will 2x shield use. And little/no dodge for now.

My guess would be hurling ranger? 2x shield use should be plenty. Training in the weapon you plan to use isn't just for DS, least for us warrior types, it also adds another way to kill things. The brawling is mostly for DS though. If DS before and after hurling were the only concern the advice would be to train more shield and dodge because you'd get the benefits from them regardless of what was held in your hand so your DS would be more static.

[nocturnix]

My guess would be hurling ranger? 2x shield use should be plenty. Training in the weapon you plan to use isn't just for DS, least for us warrior types, it also adds another way to kill things. The brawling is mostly for DS though. If DS before and after hurling were the only concern the advice would be to train more shield and dodge because you'd get the benefits from them regardless of what was held in your hand so your DS would be more static.

That is what I was hoping. Relieved that I dont need to pick up those extra combat skills. And yes you are right, but SHHHhhh ;-)

[Tumbadoo]

Thanks for all the good information. My hurling warrior will be using a chain spear. Considering this, is using a shield even possible. I'm assuming yes. I'm also assuming that you will have to have a one handed grip on the spear. I'm also wondering can the chain spear be swung melee while having the shield out, if so what training is required in the AS formula, is it polearms is it edge or is it both. Also, once the chain on the spear is extended after a throw what training skills are considered for the DS calculation, is it shield and OHE, shield and polearm, shield and brawling? Also, what determined the DS formula when holding the spear in a one handed grip with a shield. Is it shield use and edge, shield and polearm? Thanks in advance.

[Androidpk]

Spears are a one handed or two handed polearm. Switch with grip, like bastard sword/axe.

[Astray]

Chain spear... is that as cool as it sounds?

[Androidpk]

Yes.

[Tumbadoo]

I'll agree with Androidpk on the coolness level. I do understand that you can grip to be one handed or two handed. Following that line of thinking one could assume that when gripped one handed you would need training in edged weapons to wield it as a melee weapon. Can that be confirmed?

[SpiffyJr]

I'd always go 3x shield over 1x dodge for the shield maneuvers. They're just too damn good and give you a lot of defense that isn't just a straight DS check. Let's face it - a warrior at 2x shield isn't going to be getting hurt by ds checks anyway. The extra CvA, trample, deflection of bolts, etc. Too damn good not to get as soon as possible.

*EDIT* Hell, you're hurling and your AS is probably high enough anyway. Pick up 3x tortoise stance and enjoy a nice 50% or more offensive block rate with a tower shield, 3x shields, and block mastery.

[Roblar]

Following that line of thinking one could assume that when gripped one handed you would need training in edged weapons to wield it as a melee weapon. Can that be confirmed?

When gripped one handed, it remains a polearm and would be swung as a polearm, not OHE.

[Tumbadoo]

So Roblar, basically you can't swing it effectively with a shield in your hand?

[Roblar]

I've never used a chain spear, but I'm not sure why you don't think it could be swung effectively with one hand?

Obviously, it is for hurling and the script is designed for hurling. However, it remains a grippable polearm for use with two hands or one hand so should be able to be swung (thrusted) like a normal spear.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Polearm_Weapons

[Roblar]

Swinging it shield + one hand use would just be a lower DF & AvD (but better DS obv)

Here's a link with some usage. Fun times.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/archive/index.php/t-25615.html

[Archigeek]

I think the chain spears are super cool, but involve a few extra steps in exchange for that coolness.

[Astray]

Swinging it shield + one hand use would just be a lower DF & AvD (but better DS obv)

Here's a link with some usage. Fun times.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/archive/index.php/t-25615.html
Okay, that is fucking cool.

[Roblar]

Chain Spear:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C3poU_0sK4

[Astray]

Man, way to pique my interest in a weapon that is probably expensive as all fuck.

[Elgrim]

Swinging it shield + one hand use would just be a lower DF & AvD (but better DS obv)

Here's a link with some usage. Fun times.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/archive/index.php/t-25615.html

I need to buy this. Asap! :)

[ThatDamnTep]

I need to buy this. Asap! :)

Prepare to be disappointed. You get RT for hurling it, you get RT for putting it back in one piece, and as far as I remember you get no parry DS from the piece that is in your hand while the head is extended. An off the shelf 4x weapon is mechanically superior.

Also, put me in the 3x shield 0 dodge camp. As someone who did it without converting to hurling I never had issues. I'd also seriously look at using a war hammer as your weapon of choice.

edit: I'm pretty sure they're capped at 6x too.

[SpiffyJr]

I wrote an elaborate script to try and manage hurling and losing of hurled weapons. It didn't end up working out very well...

[Tumbadoo]

I'm going to disagree with you ThatDamnTap. Yes, you get the hurling RT, Yes, you get an rt for pulling the shaft (insert masturbation joke here) but when you pull the shaft back it does damage and more often than not the critter is knocked to the ground. So, although there is additional RT i feel it's worth it. They are capped at 6x, this sucks, no getting around that and yes there is no parry DS but for me I find those two things insignificant, but that's just me. I've owned returners and bandos and you can certainly argue they are mechanically more sound but I find the chain spears a lot of fun.

[Tumbadoo]

Another quick question, and I always forget the answer to this but, does training in ambushing help with aiming at specific body parts and crit factors when hurling or ambushing from the open?

[Tumbadoo]

For cmans is parry, block, or evade mastery worth investing in?

[ThatDamnTep]

I'm going to disagree with you ThatDamnTap. Yes, you get the hurling RT, Yes, you get an rt for pulling the shaft (insert masturbation joke here) but when you pull the shaft back it does damage and more often than not the critter is knocked to the ground. So, although there is additional RT i feel it's worth it. They are capped at 6x, this sucks, no getting around that and yes there is no parry DS but for me I find those two things insignificant, but that's just me. I've owned returners and bandos and you can certainly argue they are mechanically more sound but I find the chain spears a lot of fun.

It just comes down to efficiency for me. Let's assume best case scenarios with your RT.

Chain spear - aimed shot -> 4 seconds for the hurl, 2-4 seconds for the pull = 6-8 seconds of rt.

Regular vultite spear -> 4 seconds for the hurl, 4 seconds for the second hurl = 8 seconds

So assuming the best case scenario for the chain spear (6 seconds), I get three attacks for every two you do. Don't get me wrong, they have a ton of neatness to them. I just think it's another one of the hurling toys that could have been better than it is, like the boxes.


Another quick question, and I always forget the answer to this but, does training in ambushing help with aiming at specific body parts and crit factors when hurling or ambushing from the open?

There is no phantom critical weighting in hurling like ambush. Hurling in the open is very likely similar to ranged weapons where it's all perception.

[Roblar]

Actually krakiipedia says hurling from hiding/invibility also gives the phantom crits (but not ranged).


does training in ambushing help with aiming at specific body parts and crit factors when hurling or ambushing from the open?

Also ambushing does not give you phantom crits when aiming from the open, it just helps aim. The crit weighting only applies when using attack/kill/ambush verbs from hiding or invisibility, for melee or hurling.

Ranged gives a DS pushdown but not added crits (from hiding/invis).

Your question was kinda worded as if you thought it helps from the open.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Ambush

[Tumbadoo]

So basically don't waste the points on ambush training.

[Roblar]

Training in this skill also aids in aiming from an unhidden position when using the AMBUSH verb, or when using Ranged Weapons or Thrown Weapons.

Training in both it and CM still acount for how well you aim at a specific body part.

Along with these other factors (looks like should be same for hurling):

difficulty of the particular body part targeted (smaller and more critical parts of the body are harder to aim for)

the difficulty modifier for the weapon used (larger weapons are harder to aim)

difference in attacker and target level

the attacker's Ambush skill

the attacker's Combat Maneuvers skill (when aiming from the open, as opposed to from hiding)

any eye or bleeding head wounds the attacker may have

Failure to hit the desired body part will result in attacking a different part of the target's body, or, at low skill levels, may result in the attacker being unable to find an opening for an attack yet still incurring roundtime.

[ThatDamnTep]

Huh, I missed this post at some point. Apparently ambush is a factor from the open. I still wouldn't waste the points on it as a warrior though. Mine has zero and I can't remember missing an aimed attack past my early 20s.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Thrown_Weapons_(saved_post)


Actually krakiipedia says hurling from hiding/invibility also gives the phantom crits (but not ranged).

I think whoever wrote that little blurb in the ambush category meant all ranged weapons, not just bows. I have NEVER seen phantom weighting in hurled.

[rolfard]

I tried hurling. You gain no DS pushdown or phantom crit weighting from hiding. It's more or less as ineffective from the open as it is from hiding from an offensive point of view.

[Astray]

So where does one even grab one of those chain spears?

[Buckwheet]

So where does one even grab one of those chain spears?

When they come up for sale on the PC.

[Androidpk]

One was sold just recently.

[Astray]

When they come up for sale on the PC.

Darn.

[Androidpk]

Actually he may have it still, unsure if it was sold or not.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?91790-Quite-a-few-items&p=1686869#post1686869

[Astray]

Yeah... out of my price range.

[Archigeek]

Chain spears are cool (git over here!), hurling from hiding is cool (what the what?). Returning axes are mechanically superior.

Also, all returners except chronomage weapons will pull you from hiding when you reach out to grab it on the return, and there is NO weighting from ambush training when hurling from hiding. I'm unsure about phantom crit weighting due to stats, but it's probably largely negated by other factors even if it is there.

The only downside of the 3x shield/0x dodge route is if you get sundered, and there are few places where you can get sundered, and the only one I can think of is post cap, so you will have dodge training by then even if you do start out with 3x shield/0x dodge.

Edit: tyere is NO weighting from ambush training when hurling from hiding. My mistake, left a word out.

[ThatDamnTep]

and there is weighting from ambush training when hurling from hiding. I'm unsure about phantom crit weighting due to stats, but it's probably largely negated by other factors even if it is there

Source? The shots below are from a hidden rogue with 162 ranks of ambush. It's been a while since I've looked at this stuff, but everything appears to indicate no phantom crit weighting from ambush ranks for hurling.


With a quick flick of your wrist, you deftly send a dagger into flight.
You throw a dagger at a sea nymph!
AS: +43 vs DS: +7 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +61 = +122
... and hit for 16 points of damage!
Blade slashes across the sea nymph's face!
Nice nose job.
The sea nymph is stunned!
Glancing blow. Momentum carries a dagger past a sea nymph to land nearby.


With a quick flick of your wrist, you deftly send a dagger into flight.
You throw a dagger at a sea nymph!
AS: +87 vs DS: +7 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +27 = +132
... and hit for 13 points of damage!
Well placed shot to the neck!
The sea nymph is stunned!
Bad angle. The dagger fails to stick in a sea nymph.

With a quick flick of your wrist, you deftly send a dagger into flight.
You throw a dagger at a sea nymph!
AS: +87 vs DS: -13 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +44 = +169
... and hit for 25 points of damage!
Nice shot to the head gouges the sea nymph's cheek!
The sea nymph falls to the ground and dies.
Glancing blow. Momentum carries a dagger past a sea nymph to land nearby.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

[Archigeek]

Source would be a sleepy me trying to do three things at once. There should have been a "no" in there, as in "there is no weighting from ambush training for hurling".

[Tumbadoo]

suggestions on combat and shield maneuvers, please.

[Riltus]

There is DEX bonus weighting with hurling from open or hiding (ranged attacks in general) and the weighting, as with melee combat, is the lower of DEX bonus/4 or a weapon's arbitrary cap. Dex weighting applies to true thrown weapons also.

Max DEX bonus weighting on heavier, slower weapons can be capped at as little as 2 points. For example, a morning star is capped at 2 while a mace has a cap of 5. However, a spear gripped one-handed is capped at either 2 or 3 pts. but increased to a max of 7 pts. with a two-hand grip. Spear test was melee (ATT verb) only.

Mark

[ThatDamnTep]

suggestions on combat and shield maneuvers, please.

Shield maneuvers came out after I quit, so I can't help there. But I've been thinking about resubbing lately and would be interested in hearing some opinions.

As far as CMANs you pretty much run a standard warrior load out since there aren't any warrior hurling specific ones to my knowledge. I ran wspec 5, bond 5, bmastery 3, mblow 1, sunder shield 5, mobility 2, and some other ones that just appealed to me. I can't overstate how awesome Sunder Shield was for me. It doesn't get better than removing a whole layer of defense from a shield using target. I'm pretty sure you can't use it with a polearm though.

[Jeril]

Might help with shield maneuvers some: http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?90460-Fixskill-to-OHE-Shield-amp-Maneuvers
I'd also suggest you go through and see which maneuvers interest you and ask about them.

[Archigeek]

I have three favorite shield maneuvers: trample, trample, and trample.

Also, tortoise stance combined with the one that allows your guardee AND you to get maximum blocking is pretty awesome in certain situations. You can seriously protect someone that way.

Your first choice though should be one of the three focuses, based on the size of shield you wish to use, which should of course be a tower, otherwise you are a girlie man, and should leave all threads in the warrior section to manly men.

[Androidpk]

I take it tortoise stance and divine shield would be a nice combination for a warrior/paladin group.

[Jeril]

I have three favorite shield maneuvers: trample, trample, and trample.

Also, tortoise stance combined with the one that allows your guardee AND you to get maximum blocking is pretty awesome in certain situations. You can seriously protect someone that way.

Your first choice though should be one of the three focuses, based on the size of shield you wish to use, which of course should of course be a tower, otherwise you are a girlie man, and should leave all threads in the warrior section to manly men.

Tell that to Roblar!

[Roblar]

...which should of course be a tower, otherwise you are a girlie man, and should leave all threads in the warrior section to manly men.

Waaaait a minute. My manliness is offended.

[Archigeek]

Waaaait a minute. My manliness is offended.

You'd have to have some for it to be offended. Get thee a tower shield.

[Roblar]

That's ok - I'm (almost always) in the REAL MAN's club - shieldless

[Donquix]

Manly and hiding behind a big shield? Does not compute.

two weapons or one really big one, no sissy shield to hide behind and bare-chested (pay no attention to the giant bulge that looks like a suit of platemail underneath this concealer longcoat). Manliness achieved.

http://i.imgur.com/5fJUVix.jpg

[Astray]

Guys, guys. You're doing it all wrong. The true path to manly is through the fist.