Monks in the long run

[Astray]

I've been taking a peek at Monks and they appear to be doing fine up to a point. Has anyone noticed a wall with monks?

[Androidpk]

I've been taking a peak at Monks and they appear to be doing fine up to a point. Has anyone noticed a wall with monks?

A peak? Peek? Pique!??

[Astray]

Peek. Thanks... my brain is rather jumbled as of late.

[Androidpk]

What level are you? The biggest drawback due monks late to end game is CvA and warding spells. The I
Unarmed combat system needs tweaking as well as the mental base spells. Adding CvA to iron skin for example. Asides from that I expect all monks to have a ridiculously high DS and dodge so physical combat, soloing, is a hoot, even with UAC. Punch mastery combined with rolling krynch is absolutely brutal in grimswarm camps. Just non-stop one hit kills. And that's without haste.

[Astray]

Last time I was in game I was about 27 and breezing through things. I liked what Monks were but then I was sidetracked by life. I plan on coming back and picking up where I left off but I wanted to make sure the class wasn't nerfed or something changed.

[Androidpk]

THW with stance of the mongoose is a really fun build.

[Geijon Khyree]

I've heard you have no problem until about 88

[TheLastRowmi]

There's a Monk Mentor Event tomorrow (Sunday) at 8 eastern. Would be great if you dropped by.

[Androidpk]

I've heard you have no problem until about 88

Getting warded hurts. By that level you'll really want to be using slippery mind. Target casters first, have 1218 ready to fire, and you shouldn't have too much trouble.

[Androidpk]

There's a Monk Mentor Event tomorrow (Sunday) at 8 eastern. Would be great if you dropped by.

What is this?

[TheLastRowmi]

It's a Meet and Greet. Basically hoping that everyone that plays a monk gets together to discuss things (and everyone who is interested at all--mentor events tend to be fun). I will also be talking about UAC and the minor mental sphere. Hopefully we get a lot of people to just throw ideas back and forth and teach each other about monk stuff.

[Androidpk]

Sounds cool. How did it go?

[Pistashio]

There must be somthing missing from krakki and play.net in regards to UAC with uac weapons (like tiger-claw). Given the information from those sites, MM drops quickly with 1 weapon and then 2 weapons (-15 MM and -30 MM respectively) but when you factor in the additional DF (.075 and .150 respectively) then the numbers are in decent favor of using two tiger-claws even at the -15 and -30 MM penalty, especially for jab against plate, where open hand DF drops to .035 and dual wielding tiger claws brings that up to .185, a x 5.2 difference! So in looking through the numbers populated in a spreadsheet from formulas provided... there is a boost in damage available (granted you have to hit the critter first) below the UAD x 2 cap for UAF, and also (although not as huge) when empty handed is already at UAD x 2 cap.

The only staggering difference I've found in favor of empty hands (according to the spreadsheet and not actual in game data since I'm not great at that yet) is the bonus to learning while hands are empty (saw a reference of 10-15%) which could stand to reason that go empty handed if you can just for that boost!

Thoughts or other in game experience?

7048

[Androidpk]

It is my opinion that you're better off not using held weapons. Your MM stat is the most important one for UAC and anything that lowers that is bad. Don't worry about how much damage jab does as the important thing is to tier up. Most of your kills will come from tier 2 and tier 3 death crits.

[Kithus]

THW with stance of the mongoose is a really fun build.

This is the true monk build. Go Samurai Champloo or go home.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ6E59rcaARc3_oYeZbAXOeFF75rUDaV QmMznFcA7hdk5ahjqFG

[Androidpk]

This is the true monk build. Go Samurai Champloo or go home.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ6E59rcaARc3_oYeZbAXOeFF75rUDaV QmMznFcA7hdk5ahjqFG


Awww yeah! A coraesine no-dachi would be pimp.

[Pistashio]

Jab was an example of how much it increases, punch has a similar increase at a much lower level but still noticeable.

What factors are played into tiering up? if it is based on a percentage after you successfully hit something, then maybe using weapons after you've reached T2 or T3 might be an option since in those cases your MM will be 120 or higher sometimes, making things really interesting with two weapons since crit tables are based on end roll damage(correct? Yes?) even so toss in punch mastery and gain MM and % to tier up.

I am looking for numbers as well not feelings on this one, if the numbers tell me my damage is going to increase by 15-30, (although MM fluctuates with each swing), I'm just wondering if there are numbers out there that contradict this information, and if so how are they being produced? I have seen numbers for MM drop as low as -50! not sure why or how, but it did, but when I swapped my jabs to punches or punches to jabs, then number went back to expected levels.

Basic conversation here, just trying to plan for the future.

[Haldrik]

Jab was an example of how much it increases, punch has a similar increase at a much lower level but still noticeable.

What factors are played into tiering up? if it is based on a percentage after you successfully hit something, then maybe using weapons after you've reached T2 or T3 might be an option since in those cases your MM will be 120 or higher sometimes, making things really interesting with two weapons since crit tables are based on end roll damage(correct? Yes?) even so toss in punch mastery and gain MM and % to tier up.

I am looking for numbers as well not feelings on this one, if the numbers tell me my damage is going to increase by 15-30, (although MM fluctuates with each swing), I'm just wondering if there are numbers out there that contradict this information, and if so how are they being produced? I have seen numbers for MM drop as low as -50! not sure why or how, but it did, but when I swapped my jabs to punches or punches to jabs, then number went back to expected levels.

Basic conversation here, just trying to plan for the future.

Basically MM can increase the damage by a factor greater then the DF increase. MM also fluctuates because it simulates evade/dodge/parry by lowering MM.

Monks are the only other class that can 2x MOC. Using weapons is the way to go. Eff UAC.

[Riltus]

1. Empty hand jab vs plate: Jab DF 0.035

UAF: 100 vs UDF: 63 = 1.587 * MM 100: + d100: 50 = 208

Raw damage: (208 - 100) * 0.035 = 4

2. Dual 5x tiger claws (+12 enchant bonus to UAF) vs plate: Jab DF 0.185

UAF: 112 vs UDF: 63 = 1.777 * MM 70: + d100: 50 = 174

Raw damage: (174 - 100) * 0.185 = 14

So why not use dual tiger claws? Primarily because critical rank outcomes in unarmed combat are endroll not damage-based. You will have, on average, higher critical ranks with greater damage and more severe status effects with empty hand attacks.

Empty hand: ER 208
Dual tiger claw: ER 174

Mark

[Pistashio]

Basically MM can increase the damage by a factor greater then the DF increase. MM also fluctuates because it simulates evade/dodge/parry by lowering MM.

Monks are the only other class that can 2x MOC. Using weapons is the way to go. Eff UAC.

Warriors can also 2x MoC, but more to the point, I am wondering where this information about MM increasing the damage more than DF can. given the same roll and same MM (-15 or 30 depending on weapon being held), the additional DF would win out from what I've seen. I was hoping someone had additional information and/or hard evidence rather than speculation.

Keep in mind I'm not trying to rule out your opinions just looking for further verification one way or another through evidence.

[Androidpk]

I'm not giving you speculation. I have a monk at level 75.

[Pistashio]

1. Empty hand jab vs plate: Jab DF 0.035

UAF: 100 vs UDF: 63 = 1.587 * MM 100: + d100: 50 = 208

Raw damage: (208 - 100) * 0.035 = 4

2. Dual 5x tiger claws (+12 enchant bonus to UAF) vs plate: Jab DF 0.185

UAF: 112 vs UDF: 63 = 1.777 * MM 70: + d100: 50 = 174

Raw damage: (174 - 100) * 0.185 = 14

So why not use dual tiger claws? Primarily because critical rank outcomes in unarmed combat are endroll not damage-based. You will have, on average, higher critical ranks with greater damage and more severe status effects with empty hand attacks.

Empty hand: ER 208
Dual tiger claw: ER 174

Mark

Nice! thank you, so if the crit table is based off the end roll difference rather than damage (as it's stated or what I interpreted in Krakkii) then it makes sense to go open hands.

Alright, so what you want to make sure to do is tier up as fast as possible, and retain that tier for the next enemy in the room to allow for higher crit possibilities. So, followup question then... what factors play into increasing your tier up Chances (stats, MM, flat % when a hit is landed)?

[Androidpk]

Brawl skill, UAC masteries, and the level of the critter determine your chance to tier up. Jab will give you a higher chance of getting the first tier up. If you're going to use UAC you'll want the martial stance rolling krynch so you can maintain a higher tier after you kill something.

[Pistashio]

Sounds good thanks Androidpk and Riltus for the help on this, I knew the spread sheet was not showing the whole story... yet... Now I have to complete it to include crit tables and crit damage (based on tier of course). But that ends the debate between the left/right hemispheres of my brain on straight up UAC, just pull out the weapons for Mstrike! Pair of fist-scythes will do the trick for that though :)

[Sorcasaurus]

Unlike the AS/DS combat system which uses a relatively simple method for determining the possible critical rank outcomes, UCS is more complex and less understood. What is known is that both endroll and positioning are the major factors. In addition to these two factors, the critical rank outcome is also affected by the defender's armor, critical weighting/padding, crit rank randomization (see randomization note below).
Maximum Critical Rank
All UCS attacks are executed from 1 of 3 positions (Decent, Good, Excellent). Each position determines the critical rank range. Higher endrolls will increase the likelihood of a higher critical rank within each range but even extraordinarily high endrolls and/or critical weighting cannot push a critical beyond the maximum for that position.
The ranges for each position are as follows:
Tier 1 (Decent positioning): Rank 0 to Rank 5
Tier 2 (Good positioning): Rank 0 to Rank 8
Tier 3 (Excellent positioning): Rank 0 to Rank 11
E.g., an attack from good positioning (Combat Tier 2) can have a critical rank outcome of 0 to 8. Attacks from this position are capped at rank 8 with the most likely outcomes under normal combat conditions to be ranks 6, 7 or 8.
Note: UCS critical randomization is not the same as AS/DS randomization. With sufficiently high endrolls and/or critical weighting, the critical rank outcome will be very heavily weighted toward the maximum rank.

You are applying normal as/ds math to a system that doesn't use it. It hasn't been narrowed to an exact formula yet, but Krakki tells you stance and endroll matter more than DF. This has been generally confirmed by the people who play monk regularly. You're asking for a formula people don't seem to have yet.

You also seem to be underestimating how much -30MM is given the above. The formula is ((UAF ÷ UDF) × (MM)) + d100 = endroll, with the UAF ÷ UDF capping at 2. That's likely 30-60 off of your endroll.

[Androidpk]

You could do that but it would only slow you down. Cast vertigo, jab to tier up one level, aimed punch to the head. If rolling krynch procs then go straight to another aimed punch, if not then jab to tier up. A monk can solo a grimswarm camp easily this way. I would get 1 hit crit kills back to back to back. I think my record is 9 in a row. Throw in haste and shit gets ridiculous. I ended up dropping UAC though in favor of a THW and stance of the mongoose.

[Haldrik]

You could do that but it would only slow you down. Cast vertigo, jab to tier up one level, aimed punch to the head. If rolling krynch procs then go straight to another aimed punch, if not then jab to tier up. A monk can solo a grimswarm camp easily this way. I would get 1 hit crit kills back to back to back. I think my record is 9 in a row. Throw in haste and shit gets ridiculous. I ended up dropping UAC though in favor of a THW and stance of the mongoose.

Add in some serious redux and you crushing face.

[Androidpk]

Add in some serious redux and you crushing face.

Not to mention 3x dodge and evasion mastery. The biggest weakness monks have is warding spells. Not having much CvA means even a small end roll can still pack a punch.

[Pistashio]

So with stance of mongoose you have a 5% chance when attacked to parry, then 100% to retaliate (if maxed). I see this working well with warriors who have access to parry mastery, but monks do not have access to that, is there something I'm missing as to why this works well with monks? (Besides the ~ 30% chance to dodge/evade out right)

[Astray]

I run around with 1214 and Mongoose. When you parry an attack with 1214 (which adds 25% more of a chance to parry an attack), there's a chance to disarm and if you have Mongoose going you can retaliate on a weaponless creature in offensive.

[Androidpk]

Monks should have access to parry mastery but they don't. I blame Finros. However even without that I still love the stance, especially since it can proc while you're in hard RT and its always a flat 3 seconds and in my experience with it I've always stunned or outright killed whatever it procs against. It's especially nice when something mstrikes you and you parry the first attack.

----------

A half-elven thug swings a broadsword at you!
As you parry a half-elven thug's attack, you see an opportunity for immediate retaliation!
You swing a twin-edged golvern battle axe at a half-elven thug!
AS: +432 vs DS: +260 with AvD: +51 + d100 roll: +75 = +298
... and hit for 85 points of damage!
Gruesome slash opens the half-elven thug's forehead!
Grey matter spills forth!


In an awe inspiring display of combat mastery, a lesser minotaur engages you in a furious dance macabre, spiralling into a blur of strikes and ripostes!

A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
AS: +376 vs DS: +498 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +98 = +17
A clean miss.
A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
As you parry a lesser minotaur's attack, you see an opportunity for immediate retaliation!
You swing a twin-edged golvern battle axe at a lesser minotaur!
AS: +341 vs DS: +263 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +63 = +179
... and hit for 60 points of damage!
Hard hit shatters shield arm.
The lesser minotaur is stunned!
Roundtime: 3 sec.




A krag yeti swings a monstrous hairy hand at you!
As you parry a krag yeti's attack, you see an opportunity for immediate retaliation!
You swing a twin-edged golvern battle axe at a krag yeti!
AS: +427 vs DS: +287 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +56 = +234
... and hit for 98 points of damage!
The krag yeti twists away but is caught with a hard slash!
Back is broken!
The krag yeti is knocked to the ground!
The krag yeti is stunned!
Roundtime: 3 sec.



A krag yeti swings a monstrous hairy hand at you!
As you parry a krag yeti's attack, you see an opportunity for immediate retaliation!
You swing a twin-edged golvern battle axe at a krag yeti!
AS: +432 vs DS: +287 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +78 = +261
... and hit for 112 points of damage!
Spinal cord damaged by smash to the back.
The krag yeti is stunned!
Roundtime: 3 sec.


A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
As you parry a lesser minotaur's attack, you see an opportunity for immediate retaliation!
You swing a twin-edged golvern battle axe at a lesser minotaur!
AS: +408 vs DS: +263 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +34 = +217
... and hit for 100 points of damage!
Shield arm removed at the shoulder!
The lesser minotaur is stunned!
Roundtime: 3 sec.



A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
As you parry a lesser minotaur's attack, you see an opportunity for immediate retaliation!
You swing a twin-edged golvern battle axe at a lesser minotaur!
The psychic energy surrounding a lesser minotaur intensifies the attack!
AS: +407 vs DS: +279 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +63 = +229
... and hit for 116 points of damage!
Incredible blast shatters head into a red spray.

[Pistashio]

Interesting concept... looking at the spell 1214 Brace (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/1214) I only found mention that it allows you to parry with no weapons, but if/when you do parry there is a 25% chance to disarm (increased with ML transformation).

Trying to find where it talks about increasing parry chance by 25%.

Would be pretty sweet to have 27% evasion (emastery), 15% dodge (3x dodge), 25-30% parry (1214) (melee and ranged) (with 25% chance to disarm), and a 25% chance to get a second attack roll if attack made it through dodge,evasion,parry and would have hit (blink).

[Pistashio]

Thanks for the combat log, really gets the brain thinking :)

[Androidpk]

From my understanding brace will effectively give you 10% parry if you have both hands empty and at least one (IIRC) rank of TWC.

[Astray]

Interesting concept... looking at the spell 1214 Brace (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/1214) I only found mention that it allows you to parry with no weapons, but if/when you do parry there is a 25% chance to disarm (increased with ML transformation).

Trying to find where it talks about increasing parry chance by 25%.

Would be pretty sweet to have 27% evasion (emastery), 15% dodge (3x dodge), 25-30% parry (1214) (melee and ranged) (with 25% chance to disarm), and a 25% chance to get a second attack roll if attack made it through dodge,evasion,parry and would have hit (blink).

I messed up, the disarm is 25%. My bad!

Still, not a bad chance to take.

[Pistashio]

better than nothing right! This spell is probably why Monks do not get parry mastery though. Well my IRL mind is saturated, must rest soon!

[Pistashio]

Don't redux get hindered by knowing spells? If that's the case then no spells for this monk! :P

[Androidpk]

Yes but as long as you don't go over 1x spells out won't make much of a difference.

[Astray]

Don't redux get hindered by knowing spells? If that's the case then no spells for this monk! :P

I don't recommend going without spells as a monk. They really help and some of the effects go great with stances.

[Haldrik]

Yes but as long as you don't go over 1x spells out won't make much of a difference.

Yeah, and REDUX is SUPER easy to get as a monk. That should be your #1 goal 20-30. Far superior then grabbing 120 for example.

[Pistashio]

So I was curious, does UAC benefit from the weapon being held, including crit/damage weighting? Also is punch/grap/kick round times increased based on weapon held or only by encumbrance... My train of thought could be due to lack of sleep though, but if for instance, the weapon held contributes to UAC crit table, and only suffers from -15 MM (due to double training in that particular skill), thus making the crit table for UAC = (some formula not known based on end roll) + (weapon held crit weighting)...?

Just laughing to my self at UAC with 4x+ gloves and a Claidhmore in the right hand... 2x brawl 2x thw .5x TWC (for defense of course) and tps for w/e else.

Does anyone else do odd theory crafting? I don't think this is a "real" build but just the concept captured my attention for a little while and I have no access to GSIV at work, so I ask my questions here to you fine folks who've provided some very insightful guidance so far.

[Riltus]

So I was curious, does UAC benefit from the weapon being held, including crit/damage weighting? Also is punch/grap/kick round times increased based on weapon held or only by encumbrance... My train of thought could be due to lack of sleep though, but if for instance, the weapon held contributes to UAC crit table, and only suffers from -15 MM (due to double training in that particular skill), thus making the crit table for UAC = (some formula not known based on end roll) + (weapon held crit weighting)...?

Just laughing to my self at UAC with 4x+ gloves and a Claidhmore in the right hand... 2x brawl 2x thw .5x TWC (for defense of course) and tps for w/e else.

Does anyone else do odd theory crafting? I don't think this is a "real" build but just the concept captured my attention for a little while and I have no access to GSIV at work, so I ask my questions here to you fine folks who've provided some very insightful guidance so far.

UAC attacks can benefit from weapon/equipment enhancements.

Per GM Finros:


For clarity, here are the full rules for unarmed equipment. These rules only consider equipment that is actually used in the attack -- if a held weapon isn't a part of the unarmed attack, it isn't considered in these rules.

AS/UAF: - Gloves and boots confer their full UAF bonus in all circumstances. - A single held piece of equipment contributes half of its AS bonus to UAF. - Two held pieces of equipment contribute half of the average of their AS bonus, to UAF.

Weighting: - Weighted gloves confer their full bonus when used alone. - Weighted gloves confer half their bonus when used with one or two held weapons. - A single weighted weapon confers half its bonus regardless of glove usage. - A single weighted weapon used in conjunction with a second weapon of any sort confers one quarter of its bonus regardless of glove usage (and this applies to each weapon individually -- so two weighted weapons will provide a quarter of their bonus each).

Flares and other scripted special abilities: - Each piece of equipment has a 1-in-N chance of activating on any given attack, where N is the number of pieces of equipment used in the attack. Some aspects (such as charge depletion of a blessed weapon) happen with every attack.

UAC RTs are affected by encumbrance, not held weapons.

Mark

[Pistashio]

Hey Mark! I'm not sure if that brought any clarity to me honestly. It sounds clear but is pretty vague in the explanation... for instance:

"For clarity, here are the full rules for unarmed equipment. These rules only consider equipment that is actually used in the attack -- if a held weapon isn't a part of the unarmed attack, it isn't considered in these rules." - Not sure how clear this is or isn't... To me that sounds like only Brawling gear will enhance crit/damage weighting, which is fine if that's the case, but what about crit or damage weighted one handed weapons or two handed weapons?

Weighting: - Weighted gloves confer their full bonus when used alone. - Weighted gloves confer half their bonus when used with one or two held weapons. - A single weighted weapon confers half its bonus regardless of glove usage. - Similar to the question above, does it benefit other forms of combat to have enchanted or weighted gloves? And does this apply the other way (as asked above), do weighted ohe/blunt/thw apply their weighting/enchants/flares to UAC?

"AS/UAF: - Gloves and boots confer their full UAF bonus in all circumstances." - So does that mean that 4x gloves will add 20 to my AS even when not using UAC? or is that bonus only included in the UAC formula?

Please let me know as this is very interesting to not only my UAC monk but other professions as well.

[Riltus]

Hey Mark! I'm not sure if that brought any clarity to me honestly. It sounds clear but is pretty vague in the explanation... for instance:

"For clarity, here are the full rules for unarmed equipment. These rules only consider equipment that is actually used in the attack -- if a held weapon isn't a part of the unarmed attack, it isn't considered in these rules." - Not sure how clear this is or isn't... To me that sounds like only Brawling gear will enhance crit/damage weighting, which is fine if that's the case, but what about crit or damage weighted one handed weapons or two handed weapons?

Weighting: - Weighted gloves confer their full bonus when used alone. - Weighted gloves confer half their bonus when used with one or two held weapons. - A single weighted weapon confers half its bonus regardless of glove usage. - Similar to the question above, does it benefit other forms of combat to have enchanted or weighted gloves? And does this apply the other way (as asked above), do weighted ohe/blunt/thw apply their weighting/enchants/flares to UAC?

"AS/UAF: - Gloves and boots confer their full UAF bonus in all circumstances." - So does that mean that 4x gloves will add 20 to my AS even when not using UAC? or is that bonus only included in the UAC formula?

Please let me know as this is very interesting to not only my UAC monk but other professions as well.

The properties of a weapon or item of equipment are activated based on the VERB used. OHE, OHB or other melee weapon properties only activate with melee commands such as ATTACK, KILL, AMBUSH.

UAC does not technically have any weapons other than the hands and feet. The approved-for-use brawling weapons should only be considered equipment with special properties that enhance/penalize UAC jab, punch and grapple attacks.

Enhancements attached to UAC hand/foot coverings and the designated brawling weapons only activate with UAC commands. Holding a claidhmore while PUNCHing a target will only reduce the MM without adding any crit weighting. The same rules apply for equipment/weapon enchant bonuses. You would not, for example, gain +20 AS when ATTACKing a rat with an open hand while wearing 4x handwraps.

Mark

[Pistashio]

Thanks Mark,

I did some testing on all this this past weekend and did not even check this til now (at work). All your statements you've made are 100% accurate. Thanks again for clearing the "Fog of Newb" (new spell cast on inexperienced gamers by game system).