Latrinsorm
09-20-2014, 03:44 PM
Punch in "Kobe Bryant all time great" in Google and you can find statements holding him in very high regard. Brandon Jennings (http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/08/20/brandon-jennings-says-kobe-bryant-not-michael-jordan-is-the-greatest-of-all-time/) has him at #1, Dwayne Wade (http://www.lakersnation.com/dwyane-wade-calls-kobe-bryant-second-best-all-time/2014/07/26/) has him #2, Dime (http://dimemag.com/2012/09/where-does-kobe-bryant-rank-among-the-best-players-of-all-time/) has his place in the top 10 as "completely secure". Taking the first five Google results for top 10 NBA players of all time, Kobe is unranked (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1795233-10-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time), 6th (http://sporteology.com/top-10-greatest-nba-players-time/), 10th (http://hoopsmanifesto.com/articles/basketball/top-10-nba-players-of-all-time-2014-update.html), 4th (http://www.nba.com/magic/cohen-8ball_ranking-top-20-players-nba-history_062413), and 10th (http://blogs.rgj.com/chrismurray/2014/02/14/the-sunday-list-the-10-best-basketball-players-in-the-history-of-the-game/). (If we do a consensus ranking Kobe ends up tied with Duncan for #9.)
Can we make the case objectively?
Here is where Kobe ranks in various categories...
MVPs - tied for 13th with 17 others
MVP shares - 11th (only .063 behind Wilt, had that or more every year from 2002 to 2013 except 2005 so could conceivably get up)
Finals MVPs - tied for 5th with 5 others (top 10)
Championships won - tied for 14th with 12 others
PER - 19th
WS - 14th
WS/48 - 32nd
Points - 4th
Points per game - 11th
In the playoffs, recognizing that 84-present players play about twice as many playoff games per year as Russell-era.
PER - 23rd
WS - 8th
WS/48 - 47th
Points - 3rd
Points per game - 10th
.
Finals MVPs is iffy to start with because it only goes back to 1969. If we make points the top 10, then we have:
Kareem
Karl
Jordan
Kobe
Wilt
Shaq
Moses
Hayes
Hakeem
Dirk
That list is not good. Karl, Hayes, and Dirk are absolutely not top 10 all time greats. Hakeem, Moses, and Shaq maybe but only barely if so, we certainly can't have all three. What if we did wanted the players who did the best in regular AND playoff points? Then we get, in order of maximum rank across both lists:
Kareem
Michael
Kobe
Karl
Shaq
Hakeem
Havlicek
Wilt
West
Dirk
Better, but still not good. The two biggest strengths of Kobe's resume are scoring and rings, right? So let's combine the two: who ranks the highest in career points AND rings? It turns out that eleven of the players with four+ rings are in the top 100 of points, and we can drop Tony Parker because he's the lowest in both categories. That gives us this list in chronological order:
Cousy
Havlicek
Kareem
Magic
Parish
Jordan
Pippen
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
That list is not good. Parish over Bird, Havlicek and Cousy over Russell, nothing more needs to be said. Okay, what if we take the list of most rings and restrict it to players with at least one MVP? It turns out that nine of the players with three+ rings have at least one. Too many players have exactly two rings and at least one MVP (Wilt, LeBron, Hakeem, Cowens, McAdoo, Reed, Robinson, Walton) so we can just say no one has separated himself to make it onto the top 10 for now. Let's look at the actual list, again in chronological order:
Cousy
Russell
Kareem
Bird
Magic
Jordan
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
That's quite a bit better! Cousy still sticks out though, and Shaq isn't a slam dunk either (especially over Wilt). It's also troubling how the list just past this list has so many second tier guys: McAdoo, Cowens, Robinson, even Walton. This is the best case I can find to be made for Kobe that isn't too intricate, e.g. best players to win championships while wearing #24 on a Friday and scoring 21.6 or more points per game in the third month of the season after the championship. Three+ rings and one+ MVP.
.
I don't see how that can be as compelling as an MVP/FMVP analysis. If we want to know who is an all time great player, surely we should only care about players who were the greatest on their given teams, right? Greatest on your team, then greatest in your year, then greatest of all the years. Each link has to be built in order to my mind. I thought it would be a fun exercise though.
Can we make the case objectively?
Here is where Kobe ranks in various categories...
MVPs - tied for 13th with 17 others
MVP shares - 11th (only .063 behind Wilt, had that or more every year from 2002 to 2013 except 2005 so could conceivably get up)
Finals MVPs - tied for 5th with 5 others (top 10)
Championships won - tied for 14th with 12 others
PER - 19th
WS - 14th
WS/48 - 32nd
Points - 4th
Points per game - 11th
In the playoffs, recognizing that 84-present players play about twice as many playoff games per year as Russell-era.
PER - 23rd
WS - 8th
WS/48 - 47th
Points - 3rd
Points per game - 10th
.
Finals MVPs is iffy to start with because it only goes back to 1969. If we make points the top 10, then we have:
Kareem
Karl
Jordan
Kobe
Wilt
Shaq
Moses
Hayes
Hakeem
Dirk
That list is not good. Karl, Hayes, and Dirk are absolutely not top 10 all time greats. Hakeem, Moses, and Shaq maybe but only barely if so, we certainly can't have all three. What if we did wanted the players who did the best in regular AND playoff points? Then we get, in order of maximum rank across both lists:
Kareem
Michael
Kobe
Karl
Shaq
Hakeem
Havlicek
Wilt
West
Dirk
Better, but still not good. The two biggest strengths of Kobe's resume are scoring and rings, right? So let's combine the two: who ranks the highest in career points AND rings? It turns out that eleven of the players with four+ rings are in the top 100 of points, and we can drop Tony Parker because he's the lowest in both categories. That gives us this list in chronological order:
Cousy
Havlicek
Kareem
Magic
Parish
Jordan
Pippen
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
That list is not good. Parish over Bird, Havlicek and Cousy over Russell, nothing more needs to be said. Okay, what if we take the list of most rings and restrict it to players with at least one MVP? It turns out that nine of the players with three+ rings have at least one. Too many players have exactly two rings and at least one MVP (Wilt, LeBron, Hakeem, Cowens, McAdoo, Reed, Robinson, Walton) so we can just say no one has separated himself to make it onto the top 10 for now. Let's look at the actual list, again in chronological order:
Cousy
Russell
Kareem
Bird
Magic
Jordan
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
That's quite a bit better! Cousy still sticks out though, and Shaq isn't a slam dunk either (especially over Wilt). It's also troubling how the list just past this list has so many second tier guys: McAdoo, Cowens, Robinson, even Walton. This is the best case I can find to be made for Kobe that isn't too intricate, e.g. best players to win championships while wearing #24 on a Friday and scoring 21.6 or more points per game in the third month of the season after the championship. Three+ rings and one+ MVP.
.
I don't see how that can be as compelling as an MVP/FMVP analysis. If we want to know who is an all time great player, surely we should only care about players who were the greatest on their given teams, right? Greatest on your team, then greatest in your year, then greatest of all the years. Each link has to be built in order to my mind. I thought it would be a fun exercise though.