Optimal TP Use / Hunting Training Paths

[Maerit]

So, I figured I found this imflass claid that I would roll up a paladin and start swinging a two-hander. I spell-tank my paladin with a wizard and a sorc, so he's pretty tough, but can still seem to have lower DS than I would expect. I'm a bit of a min-maxer, so I prefer to chose optimal playstyles based on access to equipment to support those playstyles over picking one for RP or appearance purposes. I know every build can technically work in GS, but there are clearly some that are more optimal than others.

The current training plan for my dwarven paladin was:

2x Armor Use
2x Physical Fitness
2x Two-handed Weapons
1.5x Combat Manuevers (it's more like 1.8x)
1x Spells
1x Dodging
.5x Harness Power

What I am wondering is if I would be better served trading my nice claid in, and using a shield + spear or a polearm? Are two-handers sub-optimal for paladins compared to other options? I mean, I crush opponents right now, but so does anyone swinging a claid, and I wonder if longer term I would do better with a different setup. Especially since I am worried that I will have to spell tank for the rest of my character's life in order to be successful due to having seriously low self-spelled DS (then again I am only level 8, so maybe it makes big jumps at some point).

My primary goal is to get to 1625 early, but I am not sure I should I 1x spells switching over to Spirit after getting 1625, or stop to get better DFRedux at some point?

[Jeril]

Gaining levels and getting into heavy armor will help. I'd suggest you drop cman down to 1x to put more points into armor and unless you are in GoS to let PF slide down to 1x as well once you hit max health and bump it up later. You don't want to stop at 1625, you need at least 1629 to fully bond with your weapon and if you go that far may as well get at least 1630. You'll never have the level of redux that a warrior will and spells don't give you a huge hit to redux while they do provide you with other benefits. Look into those benefits and figure out which ones you want and train for them. You may also find it easier to train in MIU then to train up your spirit spells and to carry around a few items for field casting, cheaper tp wise and you'd get to keep a bit more of your redux.

Two-handers definitely aren't sub-optimal, quite a few paladins have capped with them or using polearms which amounts to the same thing. As a paladin your DS just isn't going to be that great unless you throw on the kitchen sink when it comes to spells, but you shouldn't need to do that between armor and your own spells.

[Jace Solo]

2x shield and no dodge will make you a tank. Heavy armor will solidify that when you get there. A shield/pole build is not TP Maxing as poles cost more than THW. I guess swapping dodge for shields could even it out be there aren't a lot of high end one handed poles to go around and if you move the shield to swing two handed your DS will drop off the map.

[Maerit]

I am going GoS, so far I'm already rank 14 (and just pushing to max that out). As a Dwarf, it will probably be the best option.

I I think I will try dropping CM down, though that will reduce my AS a little. I don't think it'll be that noticeable, but I also need to get some disabling CMANs. Which ones should be best used for a two-hander build. I'm already 2 ranks into Feint. I was going to get disarm to be better protected from being disarmed, and wpsec1 as well.

Also, at what point do paladins get MoC or Ambush? I feel like aiming a claid at the legs is a great tactic, and also mstriking when I start warcamping will be useful.

[JackWhisper]

On the way to cap, I didn't once need to use a disabling cman. Your AS is too strong. TOO STRONG!. Oh that AS tho! Anyways, you never NEED a disable cman because all it does is add RT onto your hunts. Go for WSpec, then Surge, maybe Precision, and, later on when you get a T5 weapon, Tainted Bond. After you get those 4, then I'd say to worry about anything else. I have all 4 of those and nothing else, even though I have a lot of extra CMan points. I should really spend em but meh. Anyhoo.

MStriking in a warcamp past level 30 is dangerous. Shit will spawn on you when you're in a 9-11sec RT. Don't ambush, there's no point, especially with a claid. Walk in with offense, defense, major bane, and 1607 up. ALWAYS keep 1607 up. It's ridiculously helpful, especially after the change. If you need a surge upkeep script, go ;repo download JerilsShutNeelinUpScript <---- Harassed him until he made it for me.

Armor use: Double leather immediately, then Brig ASAP, then Metal BP skipping chain class entirely, and then save up TP's to move to full plate. You will be in your 50s when Full Plate becomes viable, and you ought to be ready the second you CAN be. 140 ranks. It's worth it.

[Jumpkick]

3x Armor
2x THW
1x CM
1x Dodge
1x Spell ( stopped at 1635 )
1x Harness power
1x Physical Fitness
20 swim
20 climb
1x Perception
1x First Aid

That's the build I had until 45 as a halfling paladin.

[Menos]

First off, two-handed weapons are probably one of the best options for a dwarven paladin. It is what I normally suggest to people who ask, unless they are playing a halfling/gnome/elf where the stats might support poles. In anything except the 9 second weapons (or aimed spears), two handers are going to beat the pants off poles.

In terms of your DS, most paladins seem to do very well with 1x dodge and spells (more on them in a second). You may consider picking up a nicely enchanted maul or mattock as well. The parry DS formula for two handers takes enchant more into account than one handers, so a higher enchant can show up decently in your DS. I was higher in dodge, but I was also a full on tank build.

I would also second Jeril's suggestions to drop Cman down to near 1x and maybe PF if you can still manage your sigils. I would try and bring them back up to near 1.4-5x by level 40ish so you can use full strength feint (with 1611) to stance casters.

For now I would drop all extra points into armor. Get into MBP as quick as you can. The plate DFs are going to make everything better.

Going back to spells. I've played Menos at everything from .3x spells to 2x spells and I am more convinced than ever that more spells is always better. Spell ranks are going to give you AS and DS from 1601, 1611, 120 and if you use it 102, not to mention the flat boosts from all of your buff spells. Picking up 1610, 1613 and 103 are going to improve your current DS issues a ton.

Offensive, 1615 is almost always going to be a faster and safer set up option when compared to Cmans and ambush. I would recommend at least sticking to 1x spells until you get 1635 and 103. That gives you all of the easy to get 100's circle DS, maxes out 1625 for ranks and gives you beseech. Under most circumstances I would even keep going 1x until learning 120. At that point you have all of the important hunting spells learned and you can either opt to coast on spells for a while to catch up physical skills or work towards the utility spells (1640, 125, 130).

If you go with a build that heavy in magic, you are going to be pretty much limited to 5 MO ranks for FoF and no ambush. I think it is a good trade off though, aiming two handers is going to be a higher level (past 37 or 54) need. The loss of MO is sad, but you really need 3 focused swings to start saving much time and that is just not in the cards for most paladins below level 50.

[Menos]

Besides saying get the 100's for self spelling and not being willing to use points on first aid (plus yuck on getting skin tasks) that is a pretty perfect summary of standard level 0-50 paladin training.


3x Armor
2x THW
1x CM
1x Dodge
1x Spell ( stopped at 1635 )
1x Harness power
1x Physical Fitness
20 swim
20 climb
1x Perception
1x First Aid

That's the build I had until 45 as a halfling paladin.

[Maerit]

So, no problems here with the build changes. They are working great, but some players have been attempting to convince me that mechanically a paladin with a blunt / shield will be better served because of the higher defense and the incredibly high damage modifiers that make a 1h blunt hit ridiculously hard... So, from a min-max perspective, is swinging a claid (currently @ 6 seconds) going to slow me down if I could replace my +12 claid with a +20 HCW blunt and use a shield?

[Jeril]

So, no problems here with the build changes. They are working great, but some players have been attempting to convince me that mechanically a paladin with a blunt / shield will be better served because of the higher defense and the incredibly high damage modifiers that make a 1h blunt hit ridiculously hard... So, from a min-max perspective, is swinging a claid (currently @ 6 seconds) going to slow me down if I could replace my +12 claid with a +20 HCW blunt and use a shield?

Unless you are dying a lot, which it sounds like you aren't, the blunt/shield would slow you down, especially against things in heavy armor. It is rather hard to beat the weighting on a claid.

[Buckwheet]

Get haste imbeds if you feel you are moving to slow. Super cheap and readily available.

[Maerit]

Unless you are dying a lot, which it sounds like you aren't, the blunt/shield would slow you down, especially against things in heavy armor. It is rather hard to beat the weighting on a claid.

Not dying a lot presently, but I am using a second account to fully spell-tank, which is something I am looking to avoid long-term. It's been helpful to get me ranked up with sunfist, but once I am sunfist master, I don't think I want to be using the crutch of a second account to spell-tank everything.

I went and took the exploratory step and picked up a 4x perfect morning star, equipped a lockered 4x medium shield, and then went and found some 4x brig (just hit 10 trains). Tested it out against the results I was getting with my claid, and found that I was killing in 5-15s vs 6-12s on average, which wasn't a massive difference. I hear this also gives you better use of 1617 and clearly makes 1609 useful.

Though, results will vary as you suggested when I am pit against targets in heavier armor. At what point do I encounter heavily armored targets? Or are there any good low-train heavy armored opponents to test against?

[Luntz]

You don't really have to worry about critters in heavy armor til 30+, easy enough to find hunting grounds suitable for your hunting style, but by then you will be a machine either way.

[Jeril]

Though, results will vary as you suggested when I am pit against targets in heavier armor. At what point do I encounter heavily armored targets? Or are there any good low-train heavy armored opponents to test against?

Dark orcs in the smuggling tunnels wear chain, or at least some of them do. There are also the ogres and trolls in the Noralgar Forest of Lys Hills, if I remember correctly one of them wears chain as well. Grahnks in Thurfells cellar are the only low level creature I can think of that wear plate besides some undead.

[Maerit]

Dark orcs in the smuggling tunnels wear chain, or at least some of them do. There are also the ogres and trolls in the Noralgar Forest of Lys Hills, if I remember correctly one of them wears chain as well. Grahnks in Thurfells cellar are the only low level creature I can think of that wear plate besides some undead.

I was fighting cave trolls, and it was taking a considerably longer time to kill them. I swapped back to claid, and they were dropping in 1-3 swings, vs 4-6 with the morning star. Of course, I also lost around 40DS in the swap with only 1x Dodge vs 2x in shields...

For now, I'm pretty robust, but at some point that lack of DS seems like it's going to bite hard.

[Jeril]

I was fighting cave trolls, and it was taking a considerably longer time to kill them. I swapped back to claid, and they were dropping in 1-3 swings, vs 4-6 with the morning star. Of course, I also lost around 40DS in the swap with only 1x Dodge vs 2x in shields...

For now, I'm pretty robust, but at some point that lack of DS seems like it's going to bite hard.

From my experience while in offensive without outside spells you are getting tagged either way, and while in defensive you shouldn't be getting hit. Just hunt smart and you are rarely going to have problems.

[Maerit]

I can push the RT down to 5s with a claid eventually, right?

[Jeril]

I can push the RT down to 5s with a claid eventually, right?

Yes, it takes a dex/agil bonus of 38, max for a dwarf is 45. If you don't like the 6 second rts you can always try a maul, they work great.

[JackWhisper]

Polearms > mauls. But they have a way higher dex/agi requirement.

Because they're better.

And they don't smell like Jeril's violated victims.

[Jeril]

Polearms > mauls. But they have a way higher dex/agi requirement.

Because they're better.

And they don't smell like Jeril's violated victims.

You do realize there are only two polearms that require a higher dex/agil, and even then only one of those is primarily used?

[liquiddrool]

If you want to go with poles charge is a great cman. With 1625 and max charge ranks it will almost always prone your enemy and can even crit kill, also your weapon can flare off of it too. I ran a polearm paladin for a while using trip and it worked, then when I switched to charge it rocked pretty hard. It was an easy tactic, walk in, charge, then swing away. It's not as efficient as some 2hw tactics posted here though got the job done. Using charge would also be helpful when grouping with others.