[POLL] Reduce time to cap while keeping post-cap requirements the same

[SpiffyJr]

If it was faster to get to cap more of the population would be cap which means more development time would be spent for cap.

e.g., let's say it takes 7 million XP to cap. Empath has 3.5M experience. 2x capped warrior has 14m xp (7M post cap).

Reduce the cap requirements to 3.5M. Empath is now level 100. Warrior now has 10.5m post-cap experience (at the same TP cost as it is now). Result: empath is 100 and warrior is more powerful than he was.

Over night the number of capped characters has increased dramatically. Convert the 50+ hunting grounds to level 100 and add in some new flavoring which reduces hunting pressure and opens up more areas for the capped people to hunt. Spread out the < 50 hunting grounds and convert them to the new 1-100 grounds. Once complete, focus all resources on end-game (level 100+) development, balancing, and story lines.

[Whirlin]

I'd much rather Simu spends both their remaining development hours for 2014 working on more interesting changes, like what we just saw with their latest paladin spell overhaul, rather than taking up the next 20 years of dev hours adjusting things for an EXP reduction alignment.

[SpiffyJr]

I'd much rather Simu spends both their remaining development hours for 2014 working on more interesting changes, like what we just saw with their latest paladin spell overhaul, rather than taking up the next 20 years of dev hours adjusting things for an EXP reduction alignment.

I don't have any knowledge on GSL but given Simutronics history your 20 year remark is probably pretty accurate.

[Buckwheet]

I honestly don't care if they change the XP requirements or how long it takes to cap. Put a name change service in the simucoin store, slap down $400 for your capped or post capped player and be done with it.

I just take issue with the underlying dick measuring contest related to all things XP, when the core focus should be on encouraging players, new and old, to put down money to have fun. Whatever that fun is.

[Buckwheet]

DR is more popular than GS right? Why is that? How does the leveling compare?

[SpiffyJr]

DR is more popular than GS right? Why is that? How does the leveling compare?

It's skill-based and, as I understand it, lots more scripting for the tedious skills. e.g., in order to get better at hiding you hide a lot. To get better at swords you swing a sword a lot.

[Gizmo]

DR is more popular than GS right? Why is that? How does the leveling compare?

I'd say it's much more monotonous than GS's leveling honestly.

Like Spiffy said, it's skill based. In order to get better at said skill you must use it and practice with it.

The crappy part is, to skill up some things you will literally be folding blades of grass all day every day.

The biggest catch for DR I feel is the actual game mechanics and really cool things one can do in that game, plus it sees more Dev than GS does.

As for leveling, it's kind of dumber than GS but does allow some more freedom in choices since circles or "levels" have certain pre-req's that must be met but you aren't contained to specific skills from those sets for the most part.

[Jace Solo]

I agree. I mean, I wouldn't adjust the amount of XP needed. I would adjust the absorption rate. It's already been done once with the instatement of XXX.

We don't want to really mess with the sliding scale but leveling is one of the most fun parts of the game. Would it lose some of it's pizzaz if it was three times faster? Instead of 10 years to cap for the casual player it was reduced to 3.5? The hardcore could cap in a year (without the obvious AFK scripting advantages)?

On the other hand, how much more do you value your characters for having that time investment in them. How much would it affect the market? Cost reductions could range from $400 for a capped character to $200 or $100 because of saturation or the decrease in time it takes to cap.

I'd rather it stay the same rather than really get in there and fuck to the point of ruining the game, which is already in constant flux of stability.

I have to err on the side of placing said development into new classes, hunting areas, class reviews and story lines. Those are the things that will keep current players coming back because, let's face it, GSIV isn't doing much to bring new players in.

[Buckwheet]

If it was that easy to level up the market for buying/selling characters would drop because who cares about buying something I can do in 12 months? It might actually be "better" for the game. There would be no "value" to sell it.

[Luscinia]

Average connections numbers for GSIV and DR (via mudstats.com), it's pretty close:

http://i.imgur.com/BGk7H8F.png
http://i.imgur.com/lVtNitV.png

I prefer a lot of DR's mechanics and lore but couldn't invest in it long term because (ironically given what spurred this discussion) I felt compelled to script in DR just for normal progression, whereas in GS I can play manually and only be slightly less efficient.

[SpiffyJr]

For those of you that voted "No" do you have a capped character already?

[Buckwheet]

Average connections numbers for GSIV and DR (via mudstats.com), it's pretty close:

http://i.imgur.com/BGk7H8F.png
http://i.imgur.com/lVtNitV.png

I prefer a lot of DR's mechanics and lore but couldn't invest in it long term because (ironically given what spurred this discussion) I felt compelled to script in DR just for normal progression, whereas in GS I can play manually and only be slightly less efficient.

Thanks for the info. I wonder if GS could do a combination. You get experience but also earn ranks of a chosen skill just by using the item. So kill a kobold, get 100 experience, and since you used a broadsword get whatever percentage 100 experience is towards your level towards auto applying it to the OHE skill. It would at least allow for more variation in training since your core skills could be going up.

[Anebriated]

You know all of those blanket RPAs were serving a similar purpose without actually changing the game mechanics.

[Buckwheet]

You know all of those blanket RPAs were serving a similar purpose without actually changing the game mechanics.

Yeah. I had no problem with those.

[Dendum]

For those of you that voted "No" do you have a capped character already?

I voted no, I don't currently have a capped character, and honestly I am in no rush to get to cap.

edit: If I was in such a rush I would just buy one.

[Thondalar]

DR is more popular than GS right? Why is that? How does the leveling compare?

They aren't that much more popular...we did a bit of a study on it a while back, and they only average about 30 more players than GS at any given time. A lot of us have played both, and almost without exception, the people who played DR first, prefer DR, and the people who played GS first, prefer GS. It's just one of those things. I'm guessing the name has something to do with it...if you know they're both text-based RPGs, would you be more likely to start playing a game called DragonRealms, or a game called GemStone? If it wasn't for my already knowing a GS player IRL that got me playing it specifically, I probably would have started with DR.

As to the OP, I think the system is perfectly fine. I think it's bullshit how easy it is to cap in the vast majority of other MMOs...and how shitty their post-cap experience is. I found myself making new characters until I capped them too, and then getting bored with the game when I ran out of character classes. Gemstone isn't as cap-intensive as a lot of other games, IMO...there are no raids, for example. There are more RP opportunities and focus than any graphic MMO I've ever played...hell, that's why a lot of us play GS. My main character is 33rd level, and I couldn't really care less if he levels more. My scenario is probably different from most because I've had capped characters in the past, so it's not really a big thing to me, but frankly, I don't play the game to watch numbers get bigger.

[JackWhisper]

Those blanket RPA's went byebye because of a few select fucking jackasses on the officials whining up a storm about how being capped should belong to the hardcore. Which has led to numerous crappy arguments over the situation. Because apparently people who haven't capped aren't people too.

Source: My 3 capped chars, and my brand new wizard who I am going to greater e-wave to be uber ARRPEE like Teclys *snort*

I voted no BTW. I think the XP is fine. They should just give more RPA's out. It gives people another very good reason to log in and enjoy something other than whacking the crap out of critters.

[Latrinsorm]

They aren't that much more popular...we did a bit of a study on it a while back, and they only average about 30 more players than GS at any given time. A lot of us have played both, and almost without exception, the people who played DR first, prefer DR, and the people who played GS first, prefer GS. It's just one of those things. I'm guessing the name has something to do with it...if you know they're both text-based RPGs, would you be more likely to start playing a game called DragonRealms, or a game called GemStone? If it wasn't for my already knowing a GS player IRL that got me playing it specifically, I probably would have started with DR.

As to the OP, I think the system is perfectly fine. I think it's bullshit how easy it is to cap in the vast majority of other MMOs...and how shitty their post-cap experience is. I found myself making new characters until I capped them too, and then getting bored with the game when I ran out of character classes. Gemstone isn't as cap-intensive as a lot of other games, IMO...there are no raids, for example. There are more RP opportunities and focus than any graphic MMO I've ever played...hell, that's why a lot of us play GS. My main character is 33rd level, and I could really care less if he levels more. My scenario is probably different from most because I've had capped characters in the past, so it's not really a big thing to me, but frankly, I don't play the game to watch numbers get bigger.Would the RP opportunities be jeopardized by faster capping? Or would they be enhanced by being able to spend more constructive time with other people in hunting/invasions/etc.?

[Buckwheet]

I had about a dozen co-workers try GS. None of them stayed past the trial. A few of them, who played EVE with me said it was more tedious and lacked a sense of growth in terms of capabilities compared to EVE.

Which struck me as odd since in EVE you will never catch the oldest skill pointed person in the game since their learning is tied 100% to real time and an active account. You grow even if you never log in.

[Alashir]

I'll tailor my post here in an effort to explain myself as it's my rebuttal to whirlin in the previous thread:
---------------------------------------

At the moment it seems many players share the sentiments of wanting changes to various areas of the game while simultaneously pushing away legitimate possibilities. For example, you can't both desire more capped hunting areas and more attention to capped players while simultaneously pushing away the idea of decreasing the time to cap. This sentiment has been echoed by numerous individuals and I'm trying to point out how ludicrous it sounds that any number of people would rather have their game driven into the ground (to be explained) versus making an adjustment and adapting to the times.

As the charts above show, our population has steadily declined over the years. In fact, our population is 1/10th of what it used to be ~15 years ago. While it's impossible to conclusively pin this down to any 1 factor, IMO it's just not possible to sell a game where it takes years to cap a character. This was evidenced earlier by several people stating they've talked to friends about it and their friends said never in a million years would they consider it as a result of how long it takes to level.

GSIV is a game that in addition fun combat mechanics prides itself on RP. It seems ironic that in a game that's all about RP that so many script and feel compelled to script as a result of how long it takes to accrue experience. It seems as though it would be a better idea to decrease the time it takes to gain experience and simultaneously decrease the amount of people scripting, and focus more dev time on capped areas and individuals which there are numerous requests for.

Even in this thread people are already wanting dev time spread out in numerous areas as I pointed out above. What if we had a majority of the player concentrated at a similar level and that gave the dev's more time to devote to everything else, including capped characters/areas/skills/ etc. Sadly, I don't think it will ever happen so long as everyone is as spread out as they are and it takes as long as it does to reach the upper tiers.

[Latrinsorm]

I had about a dozen co-workers try GS. None of them stayed past the trial. A few of them, who played EVE with me said it was more tedious and lacked a sense of growth in terms of capabilities compared to EVE.

Which struck me as odd since in EVE you will never catch the oldest skill pointed person in the game since their learning is tied 100% to real time and an active account. You grow even if you never log in.To me this suggests that those people appreciate their own growth more than they appreciate their place on a totem pole. This makes sense from a gratification point of view: telling someone they might get to the top in 5 years isn't as useful a motivator as them feeling how far they've come today.

[Anebriated]

Little off topic but I had this discussion with a friend the other day but lets say you are capped at 7.57m exp. Suddenly you look around and say what next? What if at say 15m exp(or 2x cap) you could open up another 1x skill training. So as a capped polearm warrior I could now 3x in polearms. He thought that it should be available a bit quicker but I dont know about that. Either way it would give the capped players something else to consider/work for.

Also, there should be perm 3x gift up to level 20 or even 40 for low level chars. It doesnt take that long anymore, might as well help people level a bit quicker to reduce the overall time needed to progress.

[Thondalar]

Would the RP opportunities be jeopardized by faster capping? Or would they be enhanced by being able to spend more constructive time with other people in hunting/invasions/etc.?

Apples and oranges. Hypothetically, being capped would give you more options, but if you never hunt anyway, you wouldn't be missing out on capped hunting any more than you already are. The combat portion of invasions is basically just standing around killing stuff, you can participate quite well in the story lines and events surrounding the invasions without doing any combat at all. Accomplishments in the community are not directly linked to level. My 33rd level character is a well-known figure, Co-chairman of the largest Cooperative House in the game.

[Allereli]

Those blanket RPA's went byebye because of a few select fucking jackasses on the officials whining up a storm about how being capped should belong to the hardcore

the blanket RPAs went away because people acted entitled to them and would whine when they didn't receive them

[Warriorbird]

Characters are worth more in DR. Items more in GS.

[Alashir]

How can that many people be so concerned about experience RPA's if so many feel experience gain is normal and doesn't need to change? In addition to to the RPA's, no one wanted to actively share info on what quests or storlyline events were actually happening, BECAUSE of the association with a reward/RPA.

It's a lose/lose situation and quite frankly none of it seems to add up.

Edit: On a sidenote, this thread should be titled something closer to "should experience be gained faster". If everyone hits 100 and it's like walking into a brick wall, you've got the same problem all over again.

[Zho]

the blanket RPAs went away because people acted entitled to them and would whine when they didn't receive them

That's lame and honestly in part as to why I haven't been involving myself in many of the RP Things, at least when it involves story development that doesn't involve killing x10000 invasion monsters. Sure, I know that I shouldn't look at that way and I should want to RP to RP. I do. My characters, as they are now, are pretty useless without some levels under them. I want to be involved in the higher tier part of storyline - being able to fight off stronger mobs, going into areas that are reserved for capped and generally expanding the game further for myself and my character.

RPAs were a great way to get involved with all sides of RP while being limited to lower level mobs, story-side development and being able to go back to grinding mobs with a shiny RPA that helped take away some of the time that was lost playing out hours worth of story. It's easy to say that 'it's not a race' but in reality, it is. I can certainly play a character whose sole focus will forever be nothing but story-side-RP but there are too many cool/fun things to experience to not level.

I still do it from time to time, it's not that big of a deal. I won't go in solely for the reward and I enjoy watching others do their RP thing as much as I enjoy RPing. It's just more about time investment, management and still trying to expand my character.

[Thondalar]

the blanket RPAs went away because people acted entitled to them and would whine when they didn't receive them

Yep. "This is why we can't have nice things".

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I'd be happier if there wasn't such a gap between MA hunting and solo hunting. Even if it costs more silvers because you have to run around to various town people to give you spells. But if that changed I don't mind seeing the time to cap remain where it is.

[Alashir]

I still do it from time to time, it's not that big of a deal. I won't go in solely for the reward and I enjoy watching others do their RP thing as much as I enjoy RPing. It's just more about time investment, management and still trying to expand my character.

This is the crux of why it should matter to everyone. RP'ing is fun. GS has so many verbs and so many hilarious and enjoyable ways to express yourself and interact with one another. What's not fun is feeling like I'm losing out when I stop and take a moment to interact with someone else. As a result, many people script and try various means of maximizing their time spent in GSIV. Many of these ways of circumventing the time it takes to level (ma's, bigshotting), either detract or don't add anything to the world that we want to enjoy.

Part of me feels like this is so obvious that I'm almost surprised we need to have a dialogue about it at all.

[Latrinsorm]

Apples and oranges. Hypothetically, being capped would give you more options, but if you never hunt anyway, you wouldn't be missing out on capped hunting any more than you already are. The combat portion of invasions is basically just standing around killing stuff, you can participate quite well in the story lines and events surrounding the invasions without doing any combat at all. Accomplishments in the community are not directly linked to level. My 33rd level character is a well-known figure, Co-chairman of the largest Cooperative House in the game.My point is that if the RP opportunities would NOT be jeopardized by faster capping (and would even be potentially enhanced), and if RP opportunities are why you play GS, then you have no reason to oppose faster capping. No?
I'd be happier if there wasn't such a gap between MA hunting and solo hunting. Even if it costs more silvers because you have to run around to various town people to give you spells. But if that changed I don't mind seeing the time to cap remain where it is.One MMO I played offered "hirelings", which were AI-controlled versions of each class at various levels. The main use was the various healing classes for PCs that didn't have self-healing. Some buffs were also useful, but it so happens that the most useful buff was cast by healing classes anyway. The upshot of this story is that the existence of hirelings did not annihilate the phenomenon of people grouping with each other, so that predictable outcry against your suggestion is baseless.

Plus, obviously it would be very easy to code a "take 100 silvers give buff" NPC relative to one that read and reacted to dynamic situations.

[Latrinsorm]

This is the crux of why it should matter to everyone. RP'ing is fun. GS has so many verbs and so many hilarious and enjoyable ways to express yourself and interact with one another. What's not fun is feeling like I'm losing out when I stop and take a moment to interact with someone else. As a result, many people script and try various means of maximizing their time spent in GSIV. Many of these ways of circumventing the time it takes to level (ma's, bigshotting), either detract or don't add anything to the world that we want to enjoy.

Part of me feels like this is so obvious that I'm almost surprised we need to have a dialogue about it at all.Now you know why a plurality of the country self identifies as conservative. The burden of proof is always on those who want to change things, and that burden grows the longer those things have gone unchanged.

[Candor]

If I had to spend umpteen hours to cap, then others should have to do so as well. So there!

signed a grumpy old fart

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

One MMO I played offered "hirelings", which were AI-controlled versions of each class at various levels. The main use was the various healing classes for PCs that didn't have self-healing. Some buffs were also useful, but it so happens that the most useful buff was cast by healing classes anyway. The upshot of this story is that the existence of hirelings did not annihilate the phenomenon of people grouping with each other, so that predictable outcry against your suggestion is baseless.

Plus, obviously it would be very easy to code a "take 100 silvers give buff" NPC relative to one that read and reacted to dynamic situations.

I think this would be pretty awesome if they implemented something like it, or even made it like a month-long or week-long thing available via simucoin.

[Loyrl]

I voted no, I have 1 capped character and 1 lvl 40 character. I think that at cap, currently it gets boring. How many Temple / Rift mobs can you kill in a day over and over again. While you're leveling at least you have some new area to look forward to, and the treasure is pretty decent since there isn't 50 people hunting in the same area through out the day. It takes them a long time to change things, I think them changing lower level areas to capped would be RSN. I also think when you hit cap you feel accomplished. I sure did when I hit 100. At 100, all you have to look forward to is the few points an hour to advance your character, it takes a long time to reach some goals, IE my 3x dodge and 3x PF as a warrior which I still haven't accomplished yet. I think I will still feel more accomplished hitting 100, than getting my 2 post cap goals done. But that is just me.

Dodging............................| 403 303
Physical Fitness...................| 363 263

They could offer more RPA's to lower level people though that actually RP'd instead of being there and nodding to an NPC, which I have done, or got RPA just because I was there.

[SashaFierce]

I would like to level backwards in terms of EXP needed.

So at level 1, you need 110,000, then on 2, 100,000, etc. So that when you reach the 90's, it's 10,000, or 20,000 to level. The lower levels go by so fast that you don't get to enjoy them and the upper levels take so long that it's boring.

[SpiffyJr]

If I had to spend umpteen hours to cap, then others should have to do so as well. So there!

signed a grumpy old fart

Whether intended as sarcasm or not I think that it's a largely shared sentiment. The thing is the xp doesn't go anywhere. Under the new system you'd still have the same XP just more to put towards post-cap goals (e.g., moar power). The time to get where you already are doesn't increase.

[Buckwheet]

Killing rats for 1 million XP would be ughgggh.

[SpiffyJr]

I voted no, I have 1 capped character and 1 lvl 40 character. I think that at cap, currently it gets boring. How many Temple / Rift mobs can you kill in a day over and over again. While you're leveling at least you have some new area to look forward to, and the treasure is pretty decent since there isn't 50 people hunting in the same area through out the day. It takes them a long time to change things, I think them changing lower level areas to capped would be RSN. I also think when you hit cap you feel accomplished. I sure did when I hit 100. At 100, all you have to look forward to is the few points an hour to advance your character, it takes a long time to reach some goals, IE my 3x dodge and 3x PF as a warrior which I still haven't accomplished yet. I think I will still feel more accomplished hitting 100, than getting my 2 post cap goals done. But that is just me.

Dodging............................| 403 303
Physical Fitness...................| 363 263

They could offer more RPA's to lower level people though that actually RP'd instead of being there and nodding to an NPC, which I have done, or got RPA just because I was there.

Two of your arguments (hunting the same thing, bad loot due to pressure) would be removed entirely by the proposed change. Also, if I ever hit cap (not likely - 19 years in and haven't) I'll probably cry thinking about all the time it took. :D

[Allereli]

I would like to level backwards in terms of EXP needed.

So at level 1, you need 110,000, then on 2, 100,000, etc. So that when you reach the 90's, it's 10,000, or 20,000 to level. The lower levels go by so fast that you don't get to enjoy them and the upper levels take so long that it's boring.

I find this idea fascinating.

[SpiffyJr]

I find this idea fascinating.

Killing tens of thousands of rats with 901 or a 35 AS claidhmore is the only thing I can think of that would drive new players away faster than Gemstone already does. Would be hilarious to see.

[Dendum]

I had about a dozen co-workers try GS. None of them stayed past the trial. A few of them, who played EVE with me said it was more tedious and lacked a sense of growth in terms of capabilities compared to EVE.

Which struck me as odd since in EVE you will never catch the oldest skill pointed person in the game since their learning is tied 100% to real time and an active account. You grow even if you never log in.

While it is true you will never catch a player in eve who is putting in the same time learning you are, it is also true that you can be competitive in eve a lot sooner than you can in GSIV, but then eve has a PvP element that GS lacks so meh....it is a wash in my opinion.

[Allereli]

Killing tens of thousands of rats with 901 or a 35 AS claidhmore is the only thing I can think of that would drive new players away faster than Gemstone already does. Would be hilarious to see.

well, editing the idea a bit, what if every ten levels you had an extra long level, then the xp for the next required for the next one would drop a bit, and then would regrow for the next ten levels.

[Dendum]

Whether intended as sarcasm or not I think that it's a largely shared sentiment. The thing is the xp doesn't go anywhere. Under the new system you'd still have the same XP just more to put towards post-cap goals (e.g., moar power). The time to get where you already are doesn't increase.

I don't understand WHY you want to rush towards capped,
I mean is the main tangible benefit that you think the devs will put more focus on capped hunting grounds? This game is already top heavy as hell and that hasn't caused a rush of post cap hunting to be released. It isn't like the loot picks up at capped or you get some fancy new ability that is waiting at the capped wall (though admittedly you can branch out into more skills).

I just don't understand the logic behind the request I suppose, there not going to pump the mine road into a post cap hunting zone no matter how many people cap.

[Loyrl]

Yeah I edited my post after I remembered that part of moving mobs to cap.

[SpiffyJr]

I don't understand WHY you want to rush towards capped,
I mean is the main tangible benefit that you think the devs will put more focus on capped hunting grounds? This game is already top heavy as hell and that hasn't caused a rush of post cap hunting to be released. It isn't like the loot picks up at capped or you get some fancy new ability that is waiting at the capped wall (though admittedly you can branch out into more skills).

I just don't understand the logic behind the request I suppose, there not going to pump the mine road into a post cap hunting zone no matter how many people cap.

Why? Because I'm a useless shit bag during invasions. I've tried to participate and I just end up dead and logging out because I'm a burden to the more important (i.e., capped) people that can actually kill the shit.

*EDIT* On top of that - I am just now at 43 starting to unlock some of the fun in my character. In two levels I'll FINALLY be done with fucking armor training so I can try to spread out and work on fun things.
*EDIT #2* OH MOTHER FUCKER. Maxing armor support will take me until level 49. Fan fucking tastic.

[Anebriated]

Killing rats for 1 million XP would be ughgggh.

I had thought about this as well and if it were to be done this way it would have to be lowered to like 75k max per level with a higher number at the end, probably closer to 25k. One of the number crunchers would have to figure it out. You wouldnt have to stick with rats though as there is MUCH more hunting at lower levels than there is at cap.

[Alashir]

I don't understand WHY you want to rush towards capped,
I mean is the main tangible benefit that you think the devs will put more focus on capped hunting grounds? This game is already top heavy as hell and that hasn't caused a rush of post cap hunting to be released. It isn't like the loot picks up at capped or you get some fancy new ability that is waiting at the capped wall (though admittedly you can branch out into more skills).

I just don't understand the logic behind the request I suppose, there not going to pump the mine road into a post cap hunting zone no matter how many people cap.

If they increased the rate at which you absorbed experience, you would still have the option of not doing anything. The only thing that would change would be the satisfaction myself and others derive from growing a character that is changing and becoming something more today than it was yesterday.

I don't care if I never loot anything again. What matters to me is evolving my character. Is it even possible to make an argument against people with more experience(power) having a bigger part in invasions and storylines? Experience and power opens up the world of GSIV. I sure as hell don't see any evidence of level 20 warriors posting their berserk logs.

If you're content with sitting at level retarded, you're welcome to it and I'm not sure what you have to gain from actively working against people who want to see not only themselves grow, but the game grow with them.

[Aiska]

I have no capped character, RP frequently, shamelessly powerhunt, and automate virtually everything with scripts. I voted no.

Advancement is important to me from a participation perspective (easier time with invasions, more versatility, etc), but I'm still very new and feeling out how the game works. Not just mechanically, but socially: everything from how one is expected to conduct himself in an RP event, to who to tip and when, what constitutes consent or harrassment, how to share a hunting area with multiple people. How to be gracious, basically, and someone other players want to have around.

As many people have been quick to point out, text MU*s are increasingly niche, and much of the WoW/XBox Live generation has no fucking idea how to behave in a text game. There are a lot of unspoken rules of etiquette in GS that longtime players take for granted, and I am saying that as someone with 10+ years of experience on other MU*s. I've had to unlearn a whole host of behaviors. Imagine being some idiot kid who just this morning thought it was totally acceptable to tell his Halo opponent how he fucked their mother.

The time between trial and cap is the trial-and-error period between the sprite quest and the Rift. It's berserking into other people's rooms and learning that, oops, I should be more courteous when doing my reps. It's learning to kill all of your goddamn bandits before going back to town. It's learning when to talk and when to shut up during a GMNPC event. And yes, yes, "some people will never learn," and "the community will police bad behavior," but ask yourself if you really want to open the door to waves of trigger-happy capped retards shitting up your hunting ground, or >converting Luukos and lol arpeeing evil, or what the fuck ever - or if you want to notice them long before they become a real problem.

[SpiffyJr]

I have no capped character, RP frequently, shamelessly powerhunt, and automate virtually everything with scripts. I voted no.

Advancement is important to me from a participation perspective (easier time with invasions, more versatility, etc), but I'm still very new and feeling out how the game works. Not just mechanically, but socially: everything from how one is expected to conduct himself in an RP event, to who to tip and when, what constitutes consent or harrassment, how to share a hunting area with multiple people. How to be gracious, basically, and someone other players want to have around.

As many people have been quick to point out, text MU*s are increasingly niche, and much of the WoW/XBox Live generation has no fucking idea how to behave in a text game. There are a lot of unspoken rules of etiquette in GS that longtime players take for granted, and I am saying that as someone with 10+ years of experience on other MU*s. I've had to unlearn a whole host of behaviors. Imagine being some idiot kid who just this morning thought it was totally acceptable to tell his Halo opponent how he fucked their mother.

The time between trial and cap is the trial-and-error period between the sprite quest and the Rift. It's berserking into other people's rooms and learning that, oops, I should be more courteous when doing my reps. It's learning to kill all of your goddamn bandits before going back to town. It's learning when to talk and when to shut up during a GMNPC event. And yes, yes, "some people will never learn," and "the community will police bad behavior," but ask yourself if you really want to open the door to waves of trigger-happy capped retards shitting up your hunting ground, or >converting Luukos and lol arpeeing evil, or what the fuck ever - or if you want to notice them long before they become a real problem.

Does it really take years to learn all that? Seriously. You could double, triple, quadruple the rate at which you can cap and if they still haven't learned it they never will. You can't fix stupid.

[Dendum]

If they increased the rate at which you absorbed experience, you would still have the option of not doing anything. The only thing that would change would be the satisfaction myself and others derive from growing a character that is changing and becoming something more today than it was yesterday.

I don't care if I never loot anything again. What matters to me is evolving my character. Is it even possible to make an argument against people with more experience(power) having a bigger part in invasions and storylines? Experience and power opens up the world of GSIV. I sure as hell don't see any evidence of level 20 warriors posting their berserk logs.

If you're content with sitting at level retarded, you're welcome to it and I'm not sure what you have to gain from actively working against people who want to see not only themselves grow, but the game grow with them.

Hey Alashir,
I was asking a question, if you think posting on PC is actively working one way or another on anything Simuside, more power to you.

[Aiska]

Does it really take years to learn all that? Seriously. You could double, triple, quadruple the rate at which you can cap and if they still haven't learned it they never will. You can't fix stupid.

Years? At the rate I'm going (playing three or four times a week, generally staying saturated, making time for RP), I'll cap by December easily. I started in April.

[JackWhisper]

No you won't. *Not at the rate you described*

[SpiffyJr]

Years? At the rate I'm going (playing three or four times a week, generally staying saturated, making time for RP), I'll cap by December easily. I started in April.

No, you won't (at least not at the rate you describe). At 3k xp / hour which is very good xp / hour it takes 2,466 HOURS to cap. That's almost 103 days of play time. If you spent 24 hours of those three or four days per week it would take you almost 26 weeks.

My only capped character ever was on shattered where it took me ~ 6 months of mostly 24/7 AFK scripting.

*EDIT* That's assuming 7.4 xp to cap which, I think, is close to accurate.

[Aiska]

maths

Fair enough. I still contend that it will not take me years. Perhaps a year, year-and-a-halfish if there are no lengthy breaks from the game, and if we still disagree that this is an unacceptable amount of time, then we might have to handshake and tip our text hats to one another.

[Latrinsorm]

The time between trial and cap is the trial-and-error period between the sprite quest and the Rift. It's berserking into other people's rooms and learning that, oops, I should be more courteous when doing my reps. It's learning to kill all of your goddamn bandits before going back to town. It's learning when to talk and when to shut up during a GMNPC event. And yes, yes, "some people will never learn," and "the community will police bad behavior," but ask yourself if you really want to open the door to waves of trigger-happy capped retards shitting up your hunting ground, or >converting Luukos and lol arpeeing evil, or what the fuck ever - or if you want to notice them long before they become a real problem.You say "open the door" but those phenomena already occur.

[JackWhisper]

Aiska if you get/got to level 63.5 *Halfway point* in under 9 months, I'd say that's fairly impressive. I kept very strict progress notes of my 0-100 rush that I did recently. It was hellish sometimes, but fun.

[Buckwheet]

While it is true you will never catch a player in eve who is putting in the same time learning you are, it is also true that you can be competitive in eve a lot sooner than you can in GSIV, but then eve has a PvP element that GS lacks so meh....it is a wash in my opinion.

This was in relation to pure mission running. We didn't do PVP.

[Alashir]

Fair enough. I still contend that it will not take me years. Perhaps a year, year-and-a-halfish if there are no lengthy breaks from the game, and if we still disagree that this is an unacceptable amount of time, then we might have to handshake and tip our text hats to one another.

You can contend all you want, but for starters, you intentionally lied so any credibility you might have at this point is gone. We knew you were full of shit because mathematically if you played ~4 hours a day 4-5 days a week, it does take years. Yes it can be done in less, but even under ideal circumstances scripting 24-7 365, it's still 7 months. That is a massive, massive amount of /played.

[Buckwheet]

Playing for 4 hours a day is pretty overkill for me. Try more like 2 hours. I usually get my XXX done and thats about it for me for the week. 185 weeks for me to "cap" with my play style. I believe WOW changed things so people could be in and done in what 20-30 minutes?

Thats a far cry from 2 hours to feel like you accomplish anything. 3.5 years to cap assuming no break in play time and consistent xp gain. $630 just in basic subs to just reach the point where you can stop doing "core" skills and start working on getting into things that actually start making you better than the opponents you fight or equal to them since the capped grounds sometimes go above 100. Tack on guild skills or forging and that time most likely goes to 4 years.

No thanks.

[JackWhisper]

I made my leveling experience in WOW fun by pissing off every single player of my class on the server I was on by talking shit weeks before xpacs hit, then racing them to server first for that race or class once the xpac hit.

3 server firsts later, I quit. So much fun =).

Leveling any other way was just so boring ugh.

[Alashir]

I made my leveling experience in WOW fun by pissing off every single player of my class on the server I was on by talking shit weeks before xpacs hit, then racing them to server first for that race or class once the xpac hit.

3 server firsts later, I quit. So much fun =).

Leveling any other way was just so boring ugh.

Going for WoW server firsts as a GSIV player is just cheating

[Zho]

Out of curiosity, what does a capped RPA net you if you run it while saturated from tasks? I was able to take Xoryl to 40ish? in a relatively short period of time, admittedly playing a lot. However, I seemed to practically have a constant RPA going.

[Buckwheet]

I think a 4x RPA is ~85k experience.

[Jeril]

I think the length of time it takes to cap adds more depth to the game. There are obviously some of you who want to race to cap and be done with it already but there are a great many people in the game who aren't capped and don't wish to cap in a hurry, it is why they've been playing for who knows how many years without capping, it isn't important. There are even people who say they'd quit playing their favorite characters if they ever capped them, and one who recently did so. And while I always say I'd love to have x more exp then I do if I had even twice the exp I do now I'd barely have anything left to really do. Kaedra will completely max out her skills sometime within the next year. It took Tillmen in shattered how long to max out all his skills? Latrin made some comment about 1mil exp being an arbitrary number but not really, if it took people the same length of time to get 10mil exp as it does to get 1 right now many of us would have maxed on skills long ago with no goals to work for in that area, which is part of playing the game.

They can certainly change things for low level/new people to make it easier though. On the officials I once brought up the many low level creatures that have the ability to instagib you and suggested that they all be tweaked to not be so dangerous and that they gradually work up the difficulty of creatures as one gains levels. I don't think I suggested it before on any forum but I think they need to do away with the 30 day migration period and base it off levels instead. Let people have instant migration until level 30 or so where they can actually get a feel for a character and what they want them to do, not everyone has the time to get to 20+ within a month. I think limiting stat changes to just 5 within that frame is silly too and it should be unlimited like skill changes.

They could also tailor the adventure guild tasks to peoples profession/skill set instead of it just being a random crap shot on what you get. Sending people who only use magic against anti magic creatures is just silly, sending a low level magic user against things that are heavily armored, ect. If someone is in voln they should have a higher chance of being sent to kill undead, if someone is in GoS they should have higher chance of being sent after hated enemies, if someone isn't of voln they should have lower chances of being sent after undead(notice I didn't say none though). If someone has very little perception and survival they shouldn't be tasked to find herbs as often either, or maybe not at all, I'd have no issue with it having the same requirements as skinning. I say this because if someone were really a taskmaster of such things they aren't going to be sending people without the required skills to complete their tasks. I'd also change the levels of the adventure guild so that you aren't hunting the full +5 above level until 19-20 and not hunting above level until 10 unless you request it yourself. And make it to where the higher and lower ends can be changed to where you could be hunting like level to +10 or like level to -9 without the 5 going in the other direction.

I think the prices for armor and other gear needs tweaked too, unless you specifically hunt for loot you aren't affording any enchanted gear if you try and upgrade as you go, meaning 1x, 2x, 3x, then 4x. Of course another tweak could be to change the creatures from 0-20 a bit and say level = enchant you can hold. Seems like a lot of those creatures should be changed anyway because they were created when the game was only level 0-20. Only downside to that would be that you can't give ubergear to low level alts, which I've certainly done and which obviously can be quite fun. A few people above have pointed out how having spells during the low levels make them easy, but it shouldn't be expected that you have them which is why I think things need changed in those levels.

[Fallen]

Interesting thread. I think any "solution" that speeds up 0 - 100 at this point is going to come at the cost of simucoins. Not too long ago I took a character from 1 - 20ish a few times at a fairly quick pace. With XXX, RPAs and instant migration you can make quick gains early on. I think things pick up towards the end of the pre-cap run once you can optimize bounty tasks. It's that mid level slog I'd like to see lessened, but as I said, short of buying extra XXXs from the simucoin store I just don't see it happening.

Remember, XXX in of itself was a compromise towards speeding up the pace of experience absorption. Does anyone think the original plan for experience in the GS3 to GS4 conversion would be better than what we have now? (Millions of experience to level, but no cap.)

[SpiffyJr]

stuff

You absolutely do not need spells low level to hunt. I never use them and don't even bother with "massies" when I'm in town. The difficulty isn't the problem (outside of the few insta-deaths from stupid shit). I tend to roll a lot of alts because once I hit 40'ish stuff slows down so damn much I feel like I get no where. I'd rather start up a new guy and gain 10 levels in a week rather than chug along at one per week. I've leveled several characters to 40 but I've never made it much over 50. That's not even have way to cap!

I've been playing off and on for 19 years, too. It's pretty annoying. If leveling wasn't an issue there wouldn't be 100 pages of replies to the BigShot thread. There's a lot of replies because it's tedious and people, even the hardcore "I don't script brigade", script to remove the tedium.

[SpiffyJr]

Interesting thread. I think any "solution" that speeds up 0 - 100 at this point is going to come at the cost of simucoins. Not too long ago I took a character from 1 - 20ish a few times at a fairly quick pace. With XXX, RPAs and instant migration you can make quick gains early on. I think things pick up towards the end of the pre-cap run once you can optimize bounty tasks. It's that mid level slog I'd like to see lessened, but as I said, short of buying extra XXXs from the simucoin store I just don't see it happening.

Remember, XXX in of itself was a compromise towards speeding up the pace of experience absorption. Does anyone think the original plan for experience in the GS3 to GS4 conversion would be better than what we have now? (Millions of experience to level, but no cap.)

I'd accept that assuming it's not something extremely pricey.

[Dendum]

You absolutely do not need spells low level to hunt. I never use them and don't even bother with "massies" when I'm in town. The difficulty isn't the problem (outside of the few insta-deaths from stupid shit). I tend to roll a lot of alts because once I hit 40'ish stuff slows down so damn much I feel like I get no where. I'd rather start up a new guy and gain 10 levels in a week rather than chug along at one per week. I've leveled several characters to 40 but I've never made it much over 50. That's not even have way to cap!

I've been playing off and on for 19 years, too. It's pretty annoying.

Yea but how is being at cap going to fix that? Assume post cap exp stays the same, your still going to have to slog through your post cap goals which are a ton of exp. Or lets say you max everything out, Tillmen style...then what? The argument here is you like to watch you character grow from day to day but at that point it stops growing period and even well before you max everything out you are going to reach a point where you have maxed everything needed out, and then it becomes the gear grind which honestly...you can play the gear grind game at any level over 20.

[Buckwheet]

Yea but how is being at cap going to fix that? Assume post cap exp stays the same, your still going to have to slog through your post cap goals which are a ton of exp. Or lets say you max everything out, Tillmen style...then what? The argument here is you like to watch you character grow from day to day but at that point it stops growing period and even well before you max everything out you are going to reach a point where you have maxed everything needed out, and then it becomes the gear grind which honestly...you can play the gear grind game at any level over 20.

Because at least at cap if you FEEL like doing bandits with other capped friends you can. Even without 50m exp. You can do warcamps..with your capped friends..without 50m xp. And you can go hunt in any capped hunting ground with friends and not need 50m xp.

If your friends have 50m xp and you have 5.5mm XP. Well...you can't really play with them without being a major liability.

[Jeril]

Because at least at cap if you FEEL like doing bandits with other capped friends you can. Even without 50m exp. You can do warcamps..with your capped friends..without 50m xp. And you can go hunt in any capped hunting ground with friends and not need 50m xp.

If your friends have 50m xp and you have 5.5mm XP. Well...you can't really play with them without being a major liability.


What? I've taken plenty of low level people to hunt bandits with me, and I've spent a lot of time helping lower level people hunt whatever it is they are hunting. If you get a few capped people together you can easily get a few lower level people to warcamp with you and not face instant death unless something goes really wrong. One time I went warcamping with just me and a lower level warrior that Hels had bought, he was like 80 and neither of us died. The one thing that I don't like about helping lower level people is that it kills their loot though, I don't think they should get any bonuses but they shouldn't be penalized for it either. I have also spent plenty of time hanging out with lower level characters for one reason or another and I think it is fine that you have to choose between spending time with them and grinding away exp.

[SpiffyJr]

Yea but how is being at cap going to fix that? Assume post cap exp stays the same, your still going to have to slog through your post cap goals which are a ton of exp. Or lets say you max everything out, Tillmen style...then what? The argument here is you like to watch you character grow from day to day but at that point it stops growing period and even well before you max everything out you are going to reach a point where you have maxed everything needed out, and then it becomes the gear grind which honestly...you can play the gear grind game at any level over 20.

Buckwheet mostly said it but I'll bring up invasions again. You can't participate in them at lower levels in any meaningful amount unless you're a healer or cleric.

[Buckwheet]

What? I've taken plenty of low level people to hunt bandits with me, and I've spent a lot of time helping lower level people hunt whatever it is they are hunting. If you get a few capped people together you can easily get a few lower level people to warcamp with you and not face instant death unless something goes really wrong. One time I went warcamping with just me and a lower level warrior that Hels had bought, he was like 80 and neither of us died. The one thing that I don't like about helping lower level people is that it kills their loot though, I don't think they should get any bonuses but they shouldn't be penalized for it either. I have also spent plenty of time hanging out with lower level characters for one reason or another and I think it is fine that you have to choose between spending time with them and grinding away exp.

Before or after the new shield mans and cmans were added? I tried taking in a level 79 warrior with my 30m empath and well..it didn't work. Maybe because you were a warrior.

[Silvean]

I earnestly believe a change to the level system would not have a major impact on the game population. The roleplaying in Gemstone is malnourished. Deeper RP needs real political/societal roles for players to hold and lose while interacting with the community around them.

I'm biased toward anything that promotes lots of chatty RP but I also think Gemstone would be a lot more attractive if it had some kind of PvP venue with rewards and bragging rights attached.

Now this is all pipe dream stuff given Gemstone's staffing issues but it would be game changing in a way tweaking xp rates would not.

[Allereli]

Buckwheet mostly said it but I'll bring up invasions again. You can't participate in them at lower levels in any meaningful amount unless you're a healer or cleric.

GMs have different zones now when they do invasions with different level ranges.

[Jeril]

Probably because I'm a warrior. This was also before they added more maneuvers, I imagine that would make things more difficult but Jeril isn't set up to warcamp either.

For the last several invasions none of the worst creatures have been at the gates, although Kenstrom did toss some high level creatures in town near the temple and some near Voln during the last one. As a low level character you aren't going to be saving the capped people or anything but you most certainly can kill creatures and do your part. If anyone remembers the grimswarm invasion I was still a long way from capped and helped out during that as did many others. The invasions on FWI benefited from everyone helping regardless of level. I can't think of too many invasions recently where it has been all capped/higher level people. Teras invasions have been geared towards cap that but what do you expect when most of the population there is capped?

[muyakslayer]

GMs have different zones now when they do invasions with different level ranges.

How do you find different level ranges? usually during an invasion i run for the hills. Many times i have logged into town and got one shoted before i could move.

i dont think there is anything wrong with the lvl system and this is coming from a player that played till about lvl 20 back in the early 90's on aol and then came back about 2 years ago and started from scratch. no were near capped and enjoying playing about 3 to 4 times a week.

[Allereli]

How do you find different level ranges? usually during an invasion i run for the hills. Many times i have logged into town and got one shoted before i could move.

i dont think there is anything wrong with the lvl system and this is coming from a player that played till about lvl 20 back in the early 90's on aol and then came back about 2 years ago and started from scratch. no were near capped and enjoying playing about 3 to 4 times a week.

I haven't been awake or around for any of the recent invasions. Kenstrom does things west coast time. I just hear about them after and know he's been trying different methods.

[Jeril]

And Spiffy, I don't know about your whole argument about exp between levels. The difference in exp needed to go from 29 to 30 and 39 to 40 is a whole 15k. And once you reach level 40 the exp to reach the next level only goes up by 1k. Exp to reach 40 from 39, 77.5k exp, to reach level 100 from 99 takes 112.5k exp which isn't even 50% more. At level 30 you have 1.022mil exp at level 40 you've got 1.73mil exp. Just seems to me like capping isn't important to you and doesn't really have anything to do with how long it takes to gain each level.

[Latrinsorm]

I think the length of time it takes to cap adds more depth to the game. There are obviously some of you who want to race to cap and be done with it already but there are a great many people in the game who aren't capped and don't wish to cap in a hurry, it is why they've been playing for who knows how many years without capping, it isn't important. There are even people who say they'd quit playing their favorite characters if they ever capped them, and one who recently did so. And while I always say I'd love to have x more exp then I do if I had even twice the exp I do now I'd barely have anything left to really do. Kaedra will completely max out her skills sometime within the next year. It took Tillmen in shattered how long to max out all his skills? Latrin made some comment about 1mil exp being an arbitrary number but not really, if it took people the same length of time to get 10mil exp as it does to get 1 right now many of us would have maxed on skills long ago with no goals to work for in that area, which is part of playing the game.The sense of "whew, now I'm done!" would be greatly lessened if it wasn't such an ordeal to reach cap / max skills. And I also think Simu uses that as an excuse to not make interesting content.
One time I went warcamping with just me and a lower level warrior that Hels had bought, he was like 80 and neither of us died.I think it's telling that you believe "well just get to 80 and we can play together!" is a counter argument rather than dramatically illustrating the problems in Gemstone. In GW2 a level 2 can play with someone at the level cap, meaningfully contribute, and both enjoy the same loot/exp as if they were grouped with party appropriate characters. (It would be level 1 but the game has a mandatory starter quest that gets you to level 2 so.)
Does anyone think the original plan for experience in the GS3 to GS4 conversion would be better than what we have now? (Millions of experience to level, but no cap.)That would be worse for two reasons. No matter how far behind in exp I am from you, eventually we can both be level 100 and hunt the same stuff. If the escalating level requirements are punitive enough I can catch you in the second model too but it'll take much longer, and we'd probably go through a really annoying seesaw phase where we can group one week/month, then you level and we can't, then I level and we can again, etc. The second reason is that an uncapped system (or a continually rising cap) further stretches the content that is already too thin.

Both of these problems could be solved with dynamic level mechanics, but those mechanics work just as well in a speedier cap system and should be implemented anyway.
Yea but how is being at cap going to fix that? Assume post cap exp stays the same, your still going to have to slog through your post cap goals which are a ton of exp. Or lets say you max everything out, Tillmen style...then what? The argument here is you like to watch you character grow from day to day but at that point it stops growing period and even well before you max everything out you are going to reach a point where you have maxed everything needed out, and then it becomes the gear grind which honestly...you can play the gear grind game at any level over 20.Say we triple exp so it takes 1 year to cap instead of 3. That player who wants to see their character progress will stick around for a year, rather than quitting in a month because it's so tedious. The gamble is that those kind of players outnumber the masochists would stick it out for those three years, and while Simu should obviously do market research first I think it's pretty obvious that gamble would pay off.

[Jeril]

Latrin, just because I can't drag someone on all my bounties doesn't mean I can't play with them. I can certainly help them on their bounties and spend time with people between hunts or whatever. I've dragged level 16 characters on bandit task with me, and starting at about level 40 everyone gets bandits in the same areas as those who are capped unless there isn't any capped hunting in your area. Hunting isn't everything in this game either, I've spent countless hours with lower level people even outside of storyline events that draw a whole host of people in from every level range.

[Wrathbringer]

I voted no, but only because tacos wasn't an option.

[Dendum]

Both of these problems could be solved with dynamic level mechanics, but those mechanics work just as well in a speedier cap system and should be implemented anyway.Say we triple exp so it takes 1 year to cap instead of 3. That player who wants to see their character progress will stick around for a year, rather than quitting in a month because it's so tedious. The gamble is that those kind of players outnumber the masochists would stick it out for those three years, and while Simu should obviously do market research first I think it's pretty obvious that gamble would pay off.

The problem here is that there is progression now it is just slow, what is being suggested is a quick race to the point where there is zero progression. If you can not find a way to be entertained in this game without progression at 40, when there actually is progression taking place, I highly doubt being at cap is going to rearrange your play style or thought patterns that you will be entertained post cap, especially when you reach the point where there is no progression.

This idea that you can not take place in the story line invasions until capped is crazy, I have been running out and getting killed in them since 50 and right next to me dead is normally some capped character. A good chunk of those titles that went out last time went to non capped players, there are numerous incidents where non capped players are having an effect on the story line, a role, and a part to play. There are numerous instances where capped players don't have jack to do with them.

Yes it increases your survival rate, but not against like level foes....you may want to check out the *just bit the dust list next invasion and get a handle on how many capped people die each night. Now if you are talking about uber people like Jeril and Roblar and Droit and Kaedra....well good luck you will need just as long as the 0 to cap currently to get from cap to kaedra level as far as exp and gear goes.

[Latrinsorm]

Latrin, just because I can't drag someone on all my bounties doesn't mean I can't play with them. I can certainly help them on their bounties and spend time with people between hunts or whatever. I've dragged level 16 characters on bandit task with me, and starting at about level 40 everyone gets bandits in the same areas as those who are capped unless there isn't any capped hunting in your area. Hunting isn't everything in this game either, I've spent countless hours with lower level people even outside of storyline events that draw a whole host of people in from every level range.You can volunteer the time you could otherwise be mechanically productive with, yes, but why do we have these barriers to people playing together? Of course some people will go over the barriers, but they're dumb barriers nonetheless, so we should get rid of them.

[Latrinsorm]

The problem here is that there is progression now it is just slow, what is being suggested is a quick race to the point where there is zero progression.This is a straw man. Nobody's saying GS should cap in a day. We cannot progress until it stops being trotted out.

[Androidpk]

Keep it as is.

[Jeril]

You can volunteer the time you could otherwise be mechanically productive with, yes, but why do we have these barriers to people playing together? Of course some people will go over the barriers, but they're dumb barriers nonetheless, so we should get rid of them.

It really doesn't make any sense that a level 2 character would be able to hunt and gain exp along side a capped character though, just because you don't like it doesn't mean that kind of thing should be done away with. I could certainly spend more of my time being mechanically productive but that isn't the entire point of playing GS either, if I wanted that kind of thing I'd likely find another game to play. And if I did play GS that way I'd be done with it already because I spent all my time grinding exp and have nothing left to work on.

[Thondalar]

This is a straw man. Nobody's saying GS should cap in a day. We cannot progress until it stops being trotted out.

Er, he's not saying anyone is saying that. You might do better to argue any of his other very valid points.

[Latrinsorm]

It really doesn't make any sense that a level 2 character would be able to hunt and gain exp along side a capped character though, just because you don't like it doesn't mean that kind of thing should be done away with.I will do you the courtesy of pretending you didn't make a realism argument.
I could certainly spend more of my time being mechanically productive but that isn't the entire point of playing GS either, if I wanted that kind of thing I'd likely find another game to play. And if I did play GS that way I'd be done with it already because I spent all my time grinding exp and have nothing left to work on.This does not follow logically. You already do things besides grind exp, why would you stop doing them if they happened to provide a mechanical reward too? Humans can be spiteful but that seems a bit extreme to me.
Er, he's not saying anyone is saying that. You might do better to argue any of his other very valid points.I have never cared and will never care about invasions. If he would like to claim that he productively hunts with level 100s on his level 50, or if someone else who has cited invasions would like to address his points, then you will observe the dialog you seek.

[Jeril]

[QUOTE=Latrinsorm;1686975]I will do you the courtesy of pretending you didn't make a realism argument.[QUOTE]
Why not? Even in a make believe place there must be some rules and boundaries.

[QUOTE=Latrinsorm;1686975]
This does not follow logically. You already do things besides grind exp, why would you stop doing them if they happened to provide a mechanical reward too? Humans can be spiteful but that seems a bit extreme to me.[QUOTE]

This has nothing to do with being spiteful but every action shouldn't have a mechanical reward, that is just silly. There is nothing wrong with having to make choices in that regard.

[SpiffyJr]

TLDR for those chiming in:



I'd much rather Simu spends both their remaining development hours for 2014 working on more interesting changes, like what we just saw with their latest paladin spell overhaul, rather than taking up the next 20 years of dev hours adjusting things for an EXP reduction alignment.

I voted no, I don't currently have a capped character, and honestly I am in no rush to get to cap.

I think it's bullshit how easy it is to cap in the vast majority of other MMOs...and how shitty their post-cap experience is.

I'd be happier if there wasn't such a gap between MA hunting and solo hunting.

If I had to spend umpteen hours to cap, then others should have to do so as well. So there!

I voted no, I have 1 capped character and 1 lvl 40 character. I think that at cap, currently it gets boring. How many Temple / Rift mobs can you kill in a day over and over again.

There are a lot of unspoken rules of etiquette in GS that longtime players take for granted, and I am saying that as someone with 10+ years of experience on other MU*s.


I think the length of time it takes to cap adds more depth to the game.

There are even people who say they'd quit playing their favorite characters if they ever capped them, and one who recently did so.


I earnestly believe a change to the level system would not have a major impact on the game population. The roleplaying in Gemstone is malnourished. Deeper RP needs real political/societal roles for players to hold and lose while interacting with the community around them.

I voted no, but only because tacos wasn't an option.

The problem here is that there is progression now it is just slow, what is being suggested is a quick race to the point where there is zero progression. If you can not find a way to be entertained in this game without progression at 40, when there actually is progression taking place, I highly doubt being at cap is going to rearrange your play style or thought patterns that you will be entertained post cap, especially when you reach the point where there is no progression.

I work in an industry dedicated to producing websites for video games and I'm completely shocked that there's this much resistance to a change of this nature. If I went to my boss and said, hey, there's a cool game we should do a site for. It only takes a year or so to cap if you're hardcore and if you're casual a few years. What do you think?

They'd probably fire me.

If you want this game to continue a downward spiral then keep it the way it is. If you want to see more players something has to change, period. I've been here off and on for 19 years so I get that some of you like having your dicks stroked by being powerful and all mighty but self masturbation gets old after a while. Just sayin' :D

[Jeril]

Love how you included the no for lack of tacos. I am surprised you skipped that option in your poll.

[Latrinsorm]

Why not? Even in a make believe place there must be some rules and boundaries.Because there are no levels in real life. Their existence at all is arbitrary, the amount of difference in levels that causes a penalty is arbitrary, the amount of penalty is arbitrary.

We could very easily make it so that every PC that goes into the kobold village (for example) is scaled down to no higher than level 5, because a wizard did it. An undead wizard used level drain. Boom. Rules. And now you can say to your buddy "hey let's play this game" and after he finishes laughing at the UI you can run Jeril into the kobold village with him and you both get mechanical rewards. How is this a bad thing?
This has nothing to do with being spiteful but every action shouldn't have a mechanical reward, that is just silly. There is nothing wrong with having to make choices in that regard.If you don't see the problem with an MMO discouraging group play, I can't help you. It's like you've been in prison so long you've grown to love the walls.

[Jeril]

Because there are no levels in real life.

You honestly don't think so? That is a very cute outlook on life.

[Tgo01]

Because there are no levels in real life.

The heck there isn't.

If I'm going to go out and fight crime and I see a couple of level 30 punks hassling a woman on the street do you think I'm going to ask a level 8 kid for help?

Heck no! I'm going to take out my scripted, superior aiming gun and shoot one of those bastards in the crotch by firing through the woman's skirt.

[JackWhisper]

This is why I liked how Everquest handled post-cap experience. Everquest 1 was the closest grind to GS that I've ever played. It had hell levels *20% xp gain for the entire level until you leveled*, XP loss on death, corpse runs, and it took a LONG time to level. I, as a teenager, would wake up Saturday morning, go downstairs, boot up one of the computers, take a piss, get some milk and potato chips, and sit down and get a group *Easy to get a group as a warrior tank*. You had 5 'bubbles' to fill, to level. Every bubble filling, there was a process of a line going through the middle of all 5 bubbles. One line through all 5 bubbles = 1 bubble full, line restarts. Five times equals one level. So I'd be zero bubble. I'd hunt for 7-10 hours straight, barring snacks and bio breaks. When I finished? I was lucky if I had TWO bubbles out of five. It was SLOW. And it MEANT something.

But once you finished, there was Alternate Advancement. You could train all sorts of crap. Extra stamina, extra magic resist, more powerful shield slams. ALL sorts of stuff. Skills that weren't just 'oh hey, max out your previous skills.' Someone actually went in and designed a giant skill window for AA for THAT class.

THAT is a great post-cap strategy. While retaining a heavy grind to GET there.

This is just.... this.

[Jeril]

This is why I liked how Everquest handled post-cap experience. Everquest 1 was the closest grind to GS that I've ever played. It had hell levels *20% xp gain for the entire level until you leveled*, XP loss on death, corpse runs, and it took a LONG time to level. I, as a teenager, would wake up Saturday morning, go downstairs, boot up one of the computers, take a piss, get some milk and potato chips, and sit down and get a group *Easy to get a group as a warrior tank*. You had 5 'bubbles' to fill, to level. Every bubble filling, there was a process of a line going through the middle of all 5 bubbles. One line through all 5 bubbles = 1 bubble full, line restarts. Five times equals one level. So I'd be zero bubble. I'd hunt for 7-10 hours straight, barring snacks and bio breaks. When I finished? I was lucky if I had TWO bubbles out of five. It was SLOW. And it MEANT something.

But once you finished, there was Alternate Advancement. You could train all sorts of crap. Extra stamina, extra magic resist, more powerful shield slams. ALL sorts of stuff. Skills that weren't just 'oh hey, max out your previous skills.' Someone actually went in and designed a giant skill window for AA for THAT class.

THAT is a great post-cap strategy. While retaining a heavy grind to GET there.

This is just.... this.

A lot of us have advocated for more post cap training perks, I think it is a great idea.

[JackWhisper]

TGO IS THAT YOU?!?!?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQPcZ7QQBlE

[Tgo01]

TGO IS THAT YOU?!?!?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQPcZ7QQBlE

Damn right!

Sorry for the lame insult of "your move, creep"; I try to keep things PG for my level 5 fans.

[Buckwheet]

A lot of us have advocated for more post cap training perks, I think it is a great idea.

They would be better off just removing post cap experience all together and letting people level faster. People who are post cap want MORE post cap. But that doesn't do anything for people just trying to GET to cap. They are stuck in the same grind as post cap players. And you can't argue time in the game should give you a reward because we have already shown that some players who can play 10 hours a day will "cap" sooner than someone paying the same amount of money but is unable to play the same amount of time.

Why should the person who can log 8 hours a day get more perks just because they were able to grind it out faster. Tell these post cap players to roll up a level 0 and go help newbs.

[Taernath]

T
I work in an industry dedicated to producing websites for video games and I'm completely shocked that there's this much resistance to a change of this nature.

Anything resembling a 'casual' playerbase was seared away long ago, leaving only the blackened and withered husks you see in game and on these boards. Combine that with people's normal resistance to change, and I'm actually surprised at the 1:2 reduce:keep ratio right now. I thought it'd be higher.

For what it's worth I'd like to see a lot of changes in the game, but Simu has never been about shaking up the status quo.

[Jeril]

Anything resembling a 'casual' playerbase was seared away long ago, leaving only the blackened and withered husks you see in game and on these boards. Combine that with people's normal resistance to change, and I'm actually surprised at the 1:2 reduce:keep ratio right now. I thought it'd be higher.

For what it's worth I'd like to see a lot of changes in the game, but Simu has never been about shaking up the status quo.

A lot of us want change, just not the one these people are wanting. I could give you a long list of changes I'd like to see if you really wanted, and in an earlier post I already stated a few of them.

[JackWhisper]

Jeril's List Of Changes:
1) Surprise Buttsex declared not a lawbreaking offense.
2) Lube merchants.
3) Smoke bombs for escaping when you realize you violated a girl. G.I.R.L. Guy. In. Real. Life.
4) A new black swan castle-esque event. 15 bucks. You're either a pirate or a ninja. You must decimate your enemies. ATTACK!
5) Bots that WANT Surprise Buttsex, and are invalid to be script checked. TGO to write the code for this.

[Jeril]

Jeril's List Of Changes:
1) Surprise Buttsex declared not a lawbreaking offense.
2) Lube merchants.
3) Smoke bombs for escaping when you realize you violated a girl. G.I.R.L. Guy. In. Real. Life.
4) A new black swan castle-esque event. 15 bucks. You're either a pirate or a ninja. You must decimate your enemies. ATTACK!
5) Bots that WANT Surprise Buttsex, and are invalid to be script checked. TGO to write the code for this.

1. You aren't breaking the law until you get caught!
2. What do you think the oil is?
3. In cases like these you just slowly ease away and don't make a scene.
4. I have nothing against this.
5. Who cares if they want it or not they are going to get it!

[Alashir]

Anything resembling a 'casual' playerbase was seared away long ago, leaving only the blackened and withered husks you see in game and on these boards. .

So true.

[zzentar]

6878

[Donquix]

The interesting thing to consider on topics like this is how many people don't want it changed, only because gall durn it they did it, you should too.

[Jeril]

The interesting thing to consider on topics like this is how many people don't want it changed, only because gall durn it they did it, you should too.

I don't think that is the reason most of us have. As others say titling used to mean something and these days to a lot it really doesn't. Capping means something, in the game it is a true accomplishment, and you'd make less it of it for those who are there already and those who'd reach it after by making it easier. It also takes 5 years to cap a character if you only played them through their gift and earned 30k exp a week, that is less then an hour a day of gaining exp and a very small investment of time to accomplish that goal. 30k exp on your gift also means you aren't really trying either. You can get rather close to 2k an hour just hunting between muddled and fried, and that means one very short hunt every 15 minutes or so. If you made the trip to cap shorter there are also many other milestones along the way that people would just blow right by and never really appreciate. I know I've said the game starts at cap but doing that is meant to encourage people to keep going instead of giving up along the way or even when they reach it. Some people do see cap as the end but it definitely doesn't have to be because you can do so much more with your character still.

[Fallen]

As an alternative to reducing the time to cap, they could also introduce a potion which effectively lowers your level for a set period of time. Some sort of weakening potion that hacks 10, 20, or 30 levels off your character so that you could hunt below your level for a variety of reasons. The higher level you are, the stronger the potion you could be eligible to use. It'd have to be balanced in such a way that you can't drop down 30 levels and slaughter things at 70 for full EXP, but that shouldn't be that hard to do. This would alleviate the problem of people trying to hunt with others at a lower level than them for the most part. Any more than a 50 level swing between your characters and you should probably just roll up a new one and catch up in the opposite direction. Or buy one, they cost next to nothing at point depending on profession.

Fighting in invasions shouldn't be a key motivator for a gigantic overhaul of the experience system. Invasions, despite that crazy Into the Shadows storyline, are a fairly rare occurrence. As others said, in that storyline, any permanent invasion scenario typically has zoned instances which will have level ranges of creatures available. Trying to solo right outside the front gate of a random invasion will get you killed regardless of levels unless you're spelled to the gills and/or possessing some insane gear. Grouping up, joining MHOs who specialize in fighting invaders, etc are all valid options for people during invasions.

I'm not nay-saying changes to the experience system, but at this point I don't think the 0 - 100 grind should really be the focus of a massive amount of development. At those levels, you will always have many choices in your hunting grounds, new gear and abilities to enjoy, and a sense of progression that slams to a halt when you cap. I've seen many people crushed by the daunting weight of their first post-cap goal. They'll choose something insane like 3xing spells or dodge, or 3xing Physical fitness. Tasks that costs millions of EXP for little reward outside of specific scenarios. My point is if all you're looking at when you're level 40 is level 100, you're missing out on an awful lot of what this game has to offer.

[Neovik1]

They should just up luminus to a 4x+ Instead of 3x. Every little bit helps without causing too severe of an impact.

[Hightower]

If it was faster to get to cap more of the population would be cap which means more development time would be spent for cap.

e.g., let's say it takes 7 million XP to cap. Empath has 3.5M experience. 2x capped warrior has 14m xp (7M post cap).

Reduce the cap requirements to 3.5M. Empath is now level 100. Warrior now has 10.5m post-cap experience (at the same TP cost as it is now). Result: empath is 100 and warrior is more powerful than he was.

Over night the number of capped characters has increased dramatically. Convert the 50+ hunting grounds to level 100 and add in some new flavoring which reduces hunting pressure and opens up more areas for the capped people to hunt. Spread out the < 50 hunting grounds and convert them to the new 1-100 grounds. Once complete, focus all resources on end-game (level 100+) development, balancing, and story lines.


While I'm certain this would work, at least insofar as reducing the time to cap at least somewhat probably is a good idea and, as we have before, players would adjust to the changes after a time. I question the value of such a change. I agree that we need more post-cap focus in this game in order to retain long-term players of the sort that care to reach the cap in the first place. However, this idea comes at the expense of players not of that sort in two ways: Not only does it hog development for a sweeping overhaul that would likely take quite a long time to put into place, but it would also steal the lower level hunting grounds and hand them over to the high end!

I just don't see this idea providing enough benefit to justify turning the game on its head for the next few years. It might even be disastrous, depending upon the reaction. I believe there are less drastic solutions to resolve what I agree 100% is a problem. This game takes too long to do just about everything, it can be tedious, frustrating, boring. And little thought or resources go into providing anything for post-cap players. I recognize that originally that was the intent, but that was over a decade ago now. It's time to update our outlook on this situation as more and more players enter the post-cap and quickly hit the wall where continuing to gain experience and training points provides hardly any practical benefit for hundreds of hours of grinding.

~Taverkin

[Hightower]

I agree. I mean, I wouldn't adjust the amount of XP needed. I would adjust the absorption rate. It's already been done once with the instatement of XXX.

We don't want to really mess with the sliding scale but leveling is one of the most fun parts of the game. Would it lose some of it's pizzaz if it was three times faster? Instead of 10 years to cap for the casual player it was reduced to 3.5? The hardcore could cap in a year (without the obvious AFK scripting advantages)?

On the other hand, how much more do you value your characters for having that time investment in them. How much would it affect the market? Cost reductions could range from $400 for a capped character to $200 or $100 because of saturation or the decrease in time it takes to cap.

I'd rather it stay the same rather than really get in there and fuck to the point of ruining the game, which is already in constant flux of stability.

I have to err on the side of placing said development into new classes, hunting areas, class reviews and story lines. Those are the things that will keep current players coming back because, let's face it, GSIV isn't doing much to bring new players in.

10 years to cap only happens to players who either don't typically hunt or spread their time across multiple characters. It's about 7.5m experience to cap. Even if you only logged in to absorb your gift at a leisurely pace throughout the week, it would require less than 5 years to cap. But 5 years is not an insignificant amount of time! I know WoW isn't GS, but on their dev schedule in 5 years they would have overhauled and expanded the game twice and be close to a third expansion!

I do agree that this game takes too long to accomplish things. I realize that's part of its charm for some, but I don't think a compromise of sorts should necessarily be out of the question. Now that might sting a bit to post-cap players who have already invested thousands of hours into their characters at current rates, but this would be done with the expectation that more players would eventually reach the post-cap and with at least some focus placed on that population moving forward.

That was the point of the cap originally, as I recall. The GMs basically told us at the time that if you make it to the cap, that's about it. We made the cap so that we wouldn't have to put endless resources into appeasing an ever smaller population of higher levels. But that no longer applies. The cap changed all of that and now you have an INCREASING population of capped players that quickly get bored and turn into lost accounts. We should do something to change that!

~Taverkin

[Hightower]

<<For example, you can't both desire more capped hunting areas and more attention to capped players while simultaneously pushing away the idea of decreasing the time to cap.>>

I'm not sure I understand your logic here. How are the concepts of decreasing the time to cap and increasing resources toward post-cap development related in this way? Certainly I can agree that if we made it easier to cap, even more players would find themselves stuck with little to do and that should necessarily require some resource allocation. But I'm afraid I don't see why we can't acknowledge the problem in and of itself? Even if we don't change a thing with regards to the length of time required to cap, you still have an increasing population of bored players who the devs refuse to provide anything for. And by unnecessarily forcing both changes as if they must happen in concert, you increase the probability that you'll upset something else. As we see in all the resistance to reducing time until cap that I doubt you would see if you simply suggested putting some resources toward post-cap development.

<<As the charts above show, our population has steadily declined over the years. In fact, our population is 1/10th of what it used to be ~15 years ago.>>

The charts above lack context. First, 1/10th is an exaggeration. Last night we had 350 people logged in. On a recent night it was nearly 400. And that heyday you refer to only existed for a brief period of time between ISP pricing moving from hourly rates to unlimited and the time it took Simutronics to move to subscription fees. Additionally, at that time there were no graphics-based competitors. If you look at those charts, the steepest decline appears to occur around the same time that World of Warcraft came out, if I'm not mistaken? I don't think that's a coincidence. It certainly drew me away for several years!

Having said that, I do agree that it takes too long to do things in this game. And if we want to steal back some of those players that we lost along the way, I think we need to acknowledge that expectations change over time. What worked in 1995 will not work in 2015!

<<Even in this thread people are already wanting dev time spread out in numerous areas as I pointed out above. What if we had a majority of the player concentrated at a similar level and that gave the dev's more time to devote to everything else, including capped characters/areas/skills/ etc. Sadly, I don't think it will ever happen so long as everyone is as spread out as they are and it takes as long as it does to reach the upper tiers.>>

Now this is a compelling argument. You're right! If we condensed the level spread in some way, the devs could get more bang for the buck when they implement level-range specific changes. It was one of the biggest motivating factors in the move from GS3 to GS4, too. Of course, that doesn't necessarily justify turning the world on its head again. They called the lead up "Growing Pains" for a reason! Tread carefully is all I'm saying. We have a delicate population that may not survive too much change in too short a period of time.

~Taverkin

[Hightower]

I don't understand WHY you want to rush towards capped,
I mean is the main tangible benefit that you think the devs will put more focus on capped hunting grounds? This game is already top heavy as hell and that hasn't caused a rush of post cap hunting to be released. It isn't like the loot picks up at capped or you get some fancy new ability that is waiting at the capped wall (though admittedly you can branch out into more skills).

I just don't understand the logic behind the request I suppose, there not going to pump the mine road into a post cap hunting zone no matter how many people cap.


Perhaps you would understand if the reality were different? Isn't that what this is all about? You refer to cap as a wall because you perceive there is nothing left to do. If that weren't the case, do you believe you would view it the same way? I know I wouldn't. Players follow where you lead them when it comes to game mechanics. Go on over to WoW and ask them if they think of the level cap as a wall. I'm betting nobody will have the slightest clue what you're talking about because that game is designed so that the cap is a development focus and it is intended that you reach it!

The problem is obvious to me. The solution not so much. But I think it's good that we're putting out ideas and discussing it at least. Maybe some day something will come of it!

~Taverkin

[Jarvan]

It really is funny seeing the same arguments bored capped people make in WoW and SWToR here.

People that either rushed to cap, or just hit capped find that there is nothing left for them to do. Guess what, there really isn't much left for you to do. Making it EASIER to basically "finish" a game is not a good thing. There is no PVP in GS to take up people's time. No real "raids". There is RP. That's what GS is for. If you are bored at cap, start a new char, learn to RP for once, or quit. Nope.. instead those people want the game Dev's to spend 90% of their time on introducing more content for THEM, instead of content for everyone. You want a new hunting ground.. ok. That will keep you occupied for about a month. Then you will complain that that place is old and boring, or crowded.

The Best thing about GS other then real RP.. is it takes TIME to cap.

[Wrathbringer]

It really is funny seeing the same arguments bored capped people make in WoW and SWToR here.

People that either rushed to cap, or just hit capped find that there is nothing left for them to do. Guess what, there really isn't much left for you to do. Making it EASIER to basically "finish" a game is not a good thing. There is no PVP in GS to take up people's time. No real "raids". There is RP. That's what GS is for. If you are bored at cap, start a new char, learn to RP for once, or quit. Nope.. instead those people want the game Dev's to spend 90% of their time on introducing more content for THEM, instead of content for everyone. You want a new hunting ground.. ok. That will keep you occupied for about a month. Then you will complain that that place is old and boring, or crowded.

The Best thing about GS other then real RP.. is it takes TIME to cap.

People should just roll up another char. Either you still enjoy the game or you don't.

[Johnny Five]

1.Buy capped character.
2. Save hundreds of dollars on wasted time and sub fees.
3. ???
4. Profit

P.S.
You are all wrong because new people are clearly not jumping on the "Let me play a text based MUD that takes 5 years of casual play to be bad ass. People want to be "Bad Ass" and they play games that make them feel "Bad Ass". No one wants to wait 2 years or 5 years to feel like they are "Bad Ass". None the less to get a "Uber" "Bad Ass" items costs hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Not just getting lucky on a weekly raid and being the envy of your group.

[Fallen]

A few additional points.

First, conversions of existing hunting grounds into higher level grounds has been stated as no easy feat for GMs. It has been done, but they compare the effort to making an entirely new hunting ground. Room design is the easy part. Creature design and balance is far, far more difficult. In addition to that, the hardest hunting areas to make are the ones at and especially over level 100. I think several GMs have gone on record stating as much.

Second, pushing everyone to cap would also further imbalance the treasure system. Changes would have to be made in this system as well, running further risk of feature creep. You'd also have to deal with the fact that low and mid-tier gear would become obsolete at an even faster pace than it does now. Yes, you can hunt at/post cap with 4x gear, but that's typically to avoid item loss and not out of any real desire to do so.

[Doldrum]

People arent jumping on the "Let me play a text based roleplaying game" no matter how long it takes. And to think people wont afk script hunt because capping takes 3 years instead of 5 is laughable(and even if it were true they would still script it for necro juice, get to enchanting age, artisan skills or whatever). The gift of lumnis made capping quicker, then it became the status quo, now we want it even quicker and then that will be the status quo. People always joke about how everyone always comes back to gemstone. Its because it takes so long to cap, your character matters to you. The more this game becomes a few months to cap and then boredom sets in the more people will sign up, "win" and leave. Part of the charm of the game is knowing you need so much exp to finish theres no real need to rush to cap. You arent going to sprint a marathon so just pace yourself and enjoy the game. I honestly have more fun hunting my lower level alts than my capped warrior but I play my capped warrior most because he has a history, rp, friends, enemies and all his clothes/toys and I miss them if I dont.

[Hydra]

My two questions would be:

Would this change drive existing players away?

and

Does anyone think this change would draw enough players to the game to replace the ones lost?

[Fallen]

My two questions would be:

Would this change drive existing players away?

Possibly, but not many. IMO anyway.



Does anyone think this change would draw enough players to the game to replace the ones lost?

It might encourage some players to return to GS, the question is retention once they've capped. It's not like there would magically be more dev just because people are all 80-100.

[Androidpk]

I would not come back. I'm enjoying my pace to cap. I'm on the 20 year plan it seems.

[Buckwheet]

So again we come back to..put XP modifiers in the simucoin store for cash.

Ryjex making 1m xp a month or whatever it is he has been posting has ZERO impact on me. If they were making 2 million xp per month? GOOD for them! I don't care!

[Androidpk]

How much would be acceptable for a gift of lumnis reset potion?

[Neovik1]

If they put experience modifiers in the store I would probably quit.

[Anebriated]

If they put experience modifiers in the store I would probably quit.


that seems a little extreme

[Doldrum]

If they put experience modifiers in the store I would probably quit.

They pretty much already do. Theres several quests currently out that have them as a prize you can choose. I have less issues if they sold exp modifying orbs for around $40ish or more for people with more money than sense.

[Riltus]

My two questions would be:

Would this change drive existing players away?

and

Does anyone think this change would draw enough players to the game to replace the ones lost?

Here are some other questions:

1. Has Gift of Lumnis been a net positive or negative?

2. Would you prefer to retain it or see it removed?

3. Would any current players leave if it was removed?

4. Would removal of GoL attract more or fewer new/returning players?

Repeat questions but replace GoL with RPAs.

Mark

[Buckwheet]

How much would be acceptable for a gift of lumnis reset potion?

$10.

[dmac188]

I think they should create a larger capped only access area with a special town, quests and some other interesting benefits or interactions and try to make it somewhat secret (maybe a clue is given in game when you reach cap) Also I think they should bring in some dual class benefit that has to be earned at cap. Note - I've been playing for 7 years and am only at level 86. I really like xxx, basically just make the time to hunt each week until it runs out.

[Buckwheet]

They pretty much already do. Theres several quests currently out that have them as a prize you can choose. I have less issues if they sold exp modifying orbs for around $40ish or more for people with more money than sense.

Nobody is going to pay $3500 a character to cap. If you kept them at the quest price, it would be $875. So lets pick a happy middle ground of $15 per or $1200.

[Neovik1]

I think I have less of an issue with it at a paid event as a prize than actually out right buying it in the Simu store. Atleast for the event you are paying for the time and development time it took to create it. The prizes in the event are something you earn from how well you do at the event and are not guaranteed. From what I gather atleast, I've never actually done a paid event outside of EG.

I'm not a fan of a play to win when you are already paying for a subscription. Next thing you know people will be suggesting a new subscription level that gives you permanent luminus for a 100 bucks a month.

[Neovik1]

Next thing will be buying instant experience per Simu coin. Why even play at that point?

[Dendum]

I think they should create a larger capped only access area with a special town, quests and some other interesting benefits or interactions and try to make it somewhat secret (maybe a clue is given in game when you reach cap) Also I think they should bring in some dual class benefit that has to be earned at cap. Note - I've been playing for 7 years and am only at level 86. I really like xxx, basically just make the time to hunt each week until it runs out.

This is tried in DR, and over there they complain about the fractured nature of the in game geography and negative effects it has on RP. It should be noted Simu has several other models of character progression and resource allocation that they can look at and say "ok people bitch about that as well".

I would like to see some kind of Prestige class system for post cap...but I just don't think there is the development resources for things like that.

Someone above replied to one of my comments as me saying capped is a wall, I really don't see it that way, I just don't see it as a holy grail of existence either. You still go out and kill things that can kill you, you still wait at nodes, you still are playing the game for whatever rewards or goals you set for yourself. The only true mechanical wall right now is the Tillman wall where you max out everything, and have nothing at all left to do but RP and buy gear, neither of which are necessarily bad things to do...but I question if it would be enough to keep someone happy who isn't happy with level 40 character progression speed.

[Fallen]

Here are some other questions:

1. Has Gift of Lumnis been a net positive or negative?

Benefit, IMO. It allows casual players to still see tangible gains and encourages people to log in for a minimum of a few hours a week.


2. Would you prefer to retain it or see it removed?

Retained.


3. Would any current players leave if it was removed?

Don't know that i'd leave over it if I never stopped playing, but good god i'd be hard pressed to find the motivation to start a new character.


4. Would removal of GoL attract more or fewer new/returning players?

Detract, I think. Anything that gives them the sense that they can catch up is good. The question is where to draw the line.


Repeat questions but replace GoL with RPAs.

There is nothing wrong with RPAs other than people bitching if they don't get them.

[Hightower]

This is tried in DR, and over there they complain about the fractured nature of the in game geography and negative effects it has on RP. It should be noted Simu has several other models of character progression and resource allocation that they can look at and say "ok people bitch about that as well".

I would like to see some kind of Prestige class system for post cap...but I just don't think there is the development resources for things like that.

Someone above replied to one of my comments as me saying capped is a wall, I really don't see it that way, I just don't see it as a holy grail of existence either. You still go out and kill things that can kill you, you still wait at nodes, you still are playing the game for whatever rewards or goals you set for yourself. The only true mechanical wall right now is the Tillman wall where you max out everything, and have nothing at all left to do but RP and buy gear, neither of which are necessarily bad things to do...but I question if it would be enough to keep someone happy who isn't happy with level 40 character progression speed.

Actually, the "wall" you speak of occurs long before maxxing out absolutely every skill. When leveling you have plenty of skills you consider useful but never had the points to spare after paying for core skills and other priorities. Suddenly, you no longer have any core skills to train and you can afford to invest points in new skills. The result is that early in the post-cap experience you actually make fairly rapid gains that quickly slow to a trickle as you run out of "low-hanging fruit" and are forced to delve into lesser and lesser priorities at ever-increasing cost.

So, while it probably takes some ridiculous number in excess of 50 million experience to hit the absolute "wall", reaching the point where you have maxxed your core skills, ancillary skills, and are now branching out into skills that have little relevance and typically cost a great deal besides happens far sooner, around 2x cap. There may be only a very small number of players in the extreme post-cap, but the reason for that is that most of them aren't making it anywhere near the wall. They already hit theirs a long time before that.

I'm not sure players who haven't seen the post-cap fully understand that. They seem to be focused on this absolute wall. Practically speaking, that doesn't matter. Most of us would never reach that point anyway. But plenty of us who are in the 1x-2x cap range are already starting to get bored. And we'll likely become the next class of sold post-cap characters as a result. This is why we need some focus on the post-cap.

~Taverkin

[Dendum]

Actually, the "wall" you speak of occurs long before maxxing out absolutely every skill. When leveling you have plenty of skills you consider useful but never had the points to spare after paying for core skills and other priorities. Suddenly, you no longer have any core skills to train and you can afford to invest points in new skills. The result is that early in the post-cap experience you actually make fairly rapid gains that quickly slow to a trickle as you run out of "low-hanging fruit" and are forced to delve into lesser and lesser priorities at ever-increasing cost.

So, while it probably takes some ridiculous number in excess of 50 million experience to hit the absolute "wall", reaching the point where you have maxxed your core skills, ancillary skills, and are now branching out into skills that have little relevance and typically cost a great deal besides happens far sooner, around 2x cap. There may be only a very small number of players in the extreme post-cap, but the reason for that is that most of them aren't making it anywhere near the wall. They already hit theirs a long time before that.

I'm not sure players who haven't seen the post-cap fully understand that. They seem to be focused on this absolute wall. Practically speaking, that doesn't matter. Most of us would never reach that point anyway. But plenty of us who are in the 1x-2x cap range are already starting to get bored. And we'll likely become the next class of sold post-cap characters as a result. This is why we need some focus on the post-cap.

~Taverkin

What would your suggestions be on expanding post cap opportunities Taverkin?

[audioserf]

I got to around the 10m mark and was like, "I can't do this anymore." The game just becomes such a boring grind, and when you consider that they do next to zero profession dev and aren't opening any new cap hunting grounds, I just got bored. Different strokes for different folks. Plenty of people can play to 20, 30m and still enjoy it.

[Wrathbringer]

Next thing will be buying instant experience per Simu coin. Why even play at that point?

I dunno, maybe because you enjoy the game?

[Hightower]

It really is funny seeing the same arguments bored capped people make in WoW and SWToR here.

People that either rushed to cap, or just hit capped find that there is nothing left for them to do. Guess what, there really isn't much left for you to do. Making it EASIER to basically "finish" a game is not a good thing. There is no PVP in GS to take up people's time. No real "raids". There is RP. That's what GS is for. If you are bored at cap, start a new char, learn to RP for once, or quit. Nope.. instead those people want the game Dev's to spend 90% of their time on introducing more content for THEM, instead of content for everyone. You want a new hunting ground.. ok. That will keep you occupied for about a month. Then you will complain that that place is old and boring, or crowded.

The Best thing about GS other then real RP.. is it takes TIME to cap.


Your narrative isn't consistent with reality. Nobody is asking for 90% of development to go toward the cap. We are asking that SOME development go toward the cap.

I realize that the lack of development was initially intended and in fact was the reason for the cap in the first place. The cap was their solution to a problem that existed at the time: Players level at different rates, thus the tendency is for the distribution to spread out the higher in level you go. Developing hunting areas for fewer and fewer players in an ever-expanding range is a losing proposition. The cap was an obvious solution to that problem.

However, it was probably not considered at the time that eventually enough players would reach the cap, find out they have nothing to do, and likely quit out of boredom and frustration. Or if it were, the impact was considered minimal because we didn't have Lumnis, or the bounty system, and players simply didn't level as quickly as they do today. It's obvious to anyone who plays at the cap that it represents a significant population today, and that I think was somewhat unanticipated.

That problem must be addressed. While it would be inappropriate to allocate "90%" of resources to the cap, it is also inappropriate to allocate no resources based on a design paradigm that no longer takes into account the realities of the game today. The fact is that whether they intended it or not, people like me are here, there are a lot of us, and that number is growing. Further, the only reason that number shrinks is when players leave because their needs aren't being addressed.

~Taverkin

[Wrathbringer]

Your narrative isn't consistent with reality. Nobody is asking for 90% of development to go toward the cap. We are asking that SOME development go toward the cap.

I realize that the lack of development was initially intended and in fact was the reason for the cap in the first place. The cap was their solution to a problem that existed at the time: Players level at different rates, thus the tendency is for the distribution to spread out the higher in level you go. Developing hunting areas for fewer and fewer players in an ever-expanding range is a losing proposition. The cap was an obvious solution to that problem.

However, it was probably not considered at the time that eventually enough players would reach the cap, find out they have nothing to do, and likely quit out of boredom and frustration. Or if it were, the impact was considered minimal because we didn't have Lumnis, or the bounty system, and players simply didn't level as quickly as they do today. It's obvious to anyone who plays at the cap that it represents a significant population today, and that I think was somewhat unanticipated.

That problem must be addressed. While it would be inappropriate to allocate "90%" of resources to the cap, it is also inappropriate to allocate no resources based on a design paradigm that no longer takes into account the realities of the game today. The fact is that whether they intended it or not, people like me are here, there are a lot of us, and that number is growing. Further, the only reason that number shrinks is when players leave because their needs aren't being addressed.

~Taverkin

Again, start another char if you're bored with your capped char. It's not Simu's fault that you're bored. It's yours. It's the same game it was before you capped. Either you still enjoy it or you don't. Take a break from the capped guy for awhile. Problem solved.

[Johnny Five]

I could agree with buying XXX reset. 10$ would be about right and I would actually buy it. Maybe not all the way to cap but at least to get the hell out of the 0-10 range as fast as possible.

[Methais]

I'd be happy for now if OTF were updated to not be such shit.

Would love to see a capped shan area in Solhaven too. Shan was one of the best hunting areas ever, and I was sad when I outgrew it.

[Doldrum]

I'd be happy for now if OTF were updated to not be such shit.

I second this

[Jarvan]

1.Buy capped character.
2. Save hundreds of dollars on wasted time and sub fees.
3. ???
4. Profit

P.S.
You are all wrong because new people are clearly not jumping on the "Let me play a text based MUD that takes 5 years of casual play to be bad ass. People want to be "Bad Ass" and they play games that make them feel "Bad Ass". No one wants to wait 2 years or 5 years to feel like they are "Bad Ass". None the less to get a "Uber" "Bad Ass" items costs hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Not just getting lucky on a weekly raid and being the envy of your group.

Luckily there are hundreds of games people can play if they want to be a "Bad Ass" in a weekend.

The Great thing about GS is the development of the Character. This takes time.

[SpiffyJr]

Again, start another char if you're bored with your capped char. It's not Simu's fault that you're bored. It's yours. It's the same game it was before you capped. Either you still enjoy it or you don't. Take a break from the capped guy for awhile. Problem solved.

This is the same attitude that's causing this game to die.

Person: When it new content coming out? These raids are getting old.
Company: STFU and get out if you don't like it.

Said no company ever.

[Jarvan]

Your narrative isn't consistent with reality. Nobody is asking for 90% of development to go toward the cap. We are asking that SOME development go toward the cap.

I realize that the lack of development was initially intended and in fact was the reason for the cap in the first place. The cap was their solution to a problem that existed at the time: Players level at different rates, thus the tendency is for the distribution to spread out the higher in level you go. Developing hunting areas for fewer and fewer players in an ever-expanding range is a losing proposition. The cap was an obvious solution to that problem.

However, it was probably not considered at the time that eventually enough players would reach the cap, find out they have nothing to do, and likely quit out of boredom and frustration. Or if it were, the impact was considered minimal because we didn't have Lumnis, or the bounty system, and players simply didn't level as quickly as they do today. It's obvious to anyone who plays at the cap that it represents a significant population today, and that I think was somewhat unanticipated.

That problem must be addressed. While it would be inappropriate to allocate "90%" of resources to the cap, it is also inappropriate to allocate no resources based on a design paradigm that no longer takes into account the realities of the game today. The fact is that whether they intended it or not, people like me are here, there are a lot of us, and that number is growing. Further, the only reason that number shrinks is when players leave because their needs aren't being addressed.

~Taverkin

What EXACTLY do you want to do at cap?

Hunt? There are hunting grounds.
Roleplay? Don't need to be capped.
Participate in story Lines? Don't need cap for that either.

What UNIQUE thing do you SPECIFICALLY want for capped? Because frankly.. there is no REASON to cap really. It's something that just happens if you want to. If you NEED 15 mill exp to play your Warrior.. you are doing it wrong. It's just something nice. Hell, they don't even really have to offer post cap exp if they don't want.

So.. unless you have something unique to cap that I don't know about... the only reason to make cap easier to get to, would be so that the devs have a reason to code something SPECIFICALLY for capped players.

Which.. once again.. is the fucked up thing about every other MMO. People RUSH to cap, then demand more content because the devs didn't plan for people to cap in 23 hours 13 min and 12 seconds. Then threaten to quit if they don't make something new for them to do because they are bored.

If you seriously think a new "hunting" area will solve the post cap issue.. you are sadly mistaken.

[Hightower]

What would your suggestions be on expanding post cap opportunities Taverkin?

We've recently been floating the idea of incorporating societies into the bounty system or at least modeling societies after the bounty system. I haven't arrived at all the specifics of how this could work, but here are a few ideas of what I would like to include...

Expansion of the warcamp-style system. I envision Voln and COL "warcamps" with their own flavor. And perhaps even tie into RP events to get people involved in new ways. Imagine if you could go battle the big bad guy's minions in hidden camps during the course of the event? The local Adventurer's guild is commissioning all adventurers to discover the enemy in their hiding places and dispatch them! We always hear how nice it would be if these temporary areas applied to the bounty system. Maybe this is one way it could eventually work?

This may seem a little off-track, since we're talking about solutions to the post-cap and this is not strictly a post-cap idea. But that's part of the beauty of it! This isn't post-cap players selfishly stealing resources from the rest of the population. This is something for everyone!

This also directly addresses the issue of players getting increasingly bored after hunting the same stuff for years. If capped players had the option of hunting wherever they like via this expanded warcamp-style system, they might be able to live where they want to instead of where they have to. That's always a nice change of pace after years of choosing between Ta'Illistim, Icemule, or Teras. In addition, this would greatly expand opportunities for task sharing, and I believe it would help connect these societies to the players not by affiliation, but by action. Ask yourself who are your friends? Who do you team up with when the momentous events that shape our world occur? If you ask me, it's usually the people I hunt with.

I haven't gone too much further than that, but I wouldn't mind seeing expansion in other areas as well. In my opinion, the bounty and warcamp systems have proven themselves mechanics which motivate players to cooperate. Players obviously find the rewards attractive. They're participating. Let's use that!

That's a start. Beyond that, dropping a new hunting area on the post-cap might not be a bad idea at some point. The warcamp/bounty thing would be more work, but would impact more people. Still, I expect it would take longer than developing a new hunting area. So perhaps give us something new to keep us busy, then start working on the bounty idea.

We also discussed a variety of post-cap perks. But these ideas range all over the place, from a point system to unlockable abilities to dual-class systems. I don't know what to make of all of it at this point, but post-cap perks of some kind are a great idea, I think!

~Taverkin

[Jarvan]

This is the same attitude that's causing this game to die.

Person: When it new content coming out? These raids are getting old.
Company: STFU and get out if you don't like it.

Said no company ever.

Frankly, I would like it if a company did this, rather then pander to the people that feel that they can only play a game if they are the "Bad Ass" within 20 minutes of sitting down.

You know.. the people that start a new game of Skyrim and use a console command or glitch to make themselves cap in 20 mins and give themselves the best gear and such.

You can cap a Char in less then a year if you play diligently. Don't have the time to play like that? Then buy a char if you feel the need to be capped. Next thing you know, people are going to ask to be given EXP for the time spent NOT logged in.

[Fallen]

I'd be happy for now if OTF were updated to not be such shit.

Would love to see a capped shan area in Solhaven too. Shan was one of the best hunting areas ever, and I was sad when I outgrew it.

It'd be neat if we could crowd fund dev for GS. I'd chip in a few bucks to get a couple high level mobs added to OTF.

[Jarvan]

It'd be neat if we could crowd fund dev for GS. I'd chip in a few bucks to get a couple high level mobs added to OTF.

Hookers and Blow.

Nuff said.

[Fallen]

Hookers and Blow.

Nuff said.

That'd be like Amazon's 5% skimmed off the top ala Kickstarter. Just the cost of doing business.

[Dendum]

We've recently been floating the idea of incorporating societies into the bounty system or at least modeling societies after the bounty system. I haven't arrived at all the specifics of how this could work, but here are a few ideas of what I would like to include...

Expansion of the warcamp-style system. I envision Voln and COL "warcamps" with their own flavor. And perhaps even tie into RP events to get people involved in new ways. Imagine if you could go battle the big bad guy's minions in hidden camps during the course of the event? The local Adventurer's guild is commissioning all adventurers to discover the enemy in their hiding places and dispatch them! We always hear how nice it would be if these temporary areas applied to the bounty system. Maybe this is one way it could eventually work?

This may seem a little off-track, since we're talking about solutions to the post-cap and this is not strictly a post-cap idea. But that's part of the beauty of it! This isn't post-cap players selfishly stealing resources from the rest of the population. This is something for everyone!

This also directly addresses the issue of players getting increasingly bored after hunting the same stuff for years. If capped players had the option of hunting wherever they like via this expanded warcamp-style system, they might be able to live where they want to instead of where they have to. That's always a nice change of pace after years of choosing between Ta'Illistim, Icemule, or Teras. In addition, this would greatly expand opportunities for task sharing, and I believe it would help connect these societies to the players not by affiliation, but by action. Ask yourself who are your friends? Who do you team up with when the momentous events that shape our world occur? If you ask me, it's usually the people I hunt with.

I haven't gone too much further than that, but I wouldn't mind seeing expansion in other areas as well. In my opinion, the bounty and warcamp systems have proven themselves mechanics which motivate players to cooperate. Players obviously find the rewards attractive. They're participating. Let's use that!

That's a start. Beyond that, dropping a new hunting area on the post-cap might not be a bad idea at some point. The warcamp/bounty thing would be more work, but would impact more people. Still, I expect it would take longer than developing a new hunting area. So perhaps give us something new to keep us busy, then start working on the bounty idea.

We also discussed a variety of post-cap perks. But these ideas range all over the place, from a point system to unlockable abilities to dual-class systems. I don't know what to make of all of it at this point, but post-cap perks of some kind are a great idea, I think!

~Taverkin

These are great ideas, I have long thought BP's in general should be expanded in usefulness as well. A currency others couldn't farm for you if you will.
I do believe a new hunting area should roll RSN, it is past time and as others have pointed out the capped population grows. I heard on simu radio that they might consider voln/CoL warcamps...fine but I hope we get GoS armor! Seriously though it is a good idea.


Most of these idea are better than my idea of letting capped player reroll as a Jedi Knight...but only marginally so.

[Hightower]

Again, start another char if you're bored with your capped char. It's not Simu's fault that you're bored. It's yours. It's the same game it was before you capped. Either you still enjoy it or you don't. Take a break from the capped guy for awhile. Problem solved.

When it comes to whether or not players or prospective players choose to pay the subscription fee, everything - good or bad - is Simu's "fault". After all, it isn't my responsibility to develop a viable product! However, as a player invested in this game, I have an interest in maintaining it. I perceive a long-term threat to the game based upon my experiences in the post-cap this past year and a half. Thus I am proposing solutions and debating the merits of various opinions relating to the subject.

You seem to mistake my position for one of extreme selfishness. I'm not sure where you're coming from telling me to "Take a break, problem solved."

~Taverkin

[Hightower]

"If you seriously think a new "hunting" area will solve the post cap issue.. you are sadly mistaken." ~Jarvan

You are the one who is mistaken if you believe myself and others who would support a new capped hunting ground (and we would!) view that as anything more than a temporary measure to hold us over until more lasting solutions could be developed. Give us a little credit here, huh?

~Taverkin

[Dendum]

This is the same attitude that's causing this game to die.

Person: When it new content coming out? These raids are getting old.
Company: STFU and get out if you don't like it.

Said no company ever.


You know, the fact that it is 2014 and this is a text based game might have a little bit to do with this eh?
Or you know...maybe it is just because people disagree with you.

[Changeling]

I don't personally think readjusting level 100 is the answer. Converting hunting grounds to capped areas is nontrivial. It takes some thought to build and tune critters that are a challenge across all professions. As a result I'd say first step (in my opinion!) should be to open capped hunting in Zul Logoth and actually get that town some activity. I know it's not a popular opinion, but frankly people WILL go to where there's good hunting. Spreading people out more is good especially when it comes to capped hunting. After that if/when things start to get bad they can always explore cookie cutter hunting areas a la warcamps. So overall I think they have options along their current course without resorting to modifying levels again.

Bring on the neg rep. I don't read it anyway. :)

[Methais]

If you seriously think a new "hunting" area will solve the post cap issue.. you are sadly mistaken.

I think making post cap loot not suck as a whole would go a lot further than any new hunting area would. It seems to be a pretty common thing for someone's low-mid level alt raking in better loot than their 3x capped character does.

[Thondalar]

When it comes to whether or not players or prospective players choose to pay the subscription fee, everything - good or bad - is Simu's "fault". After all, it isn't my responsibility to develop a viable product! However, as a player invested in this game, I have an interest in maintaining it. I perceive a long-term threat to the game based upon my experiences in the post-cap this past year and a half. Thus I am proposing solutions and debating the merits of various opinions relating to the subject.

I've been hearing about long-term threats to this game for 20 years now. It's still here, and still improving. I think the issue is more the fact that it's a text MUD in 2014 than anything else. While some people still prefer this style of gaming, we're generally an older crowd that's getting older.

One thing that might spark a little more interest would be a structured PvP system. An Arena scenario, perhaps, with weekly and monthly tournaments. The issues I see with that is 1)the vast difference in gear between certain people and most of the community and 2) the combat system itself.

While 1) could be solved by making everyone check their gear at the door and pick vanilla "gladiator gear" off a rack ala Droughtman's, 2) would be a little bit more of an issue. PvP in GS almost always comes down to who gets the first shot off.

I'm not saying it's a solution to all of our problems, but it's a suggestion for something that would be relatively easy to code that would offer a little more variety of activity.

To me, the most fun with the game is the events, both player-run and GM-run, and the sheer variety of viable builds. There are more options for character customization, both in combat styles, physical appearance, and equipment, than pretty much any other game you'll find anywhere. These are the reasons I keep coming back. I also have two premium accounts, so I have a lot of room to play with different characters. Most people aren't willing and/or able to come up with that much per month for a text MUD, and I do think that some adjustment of the pricing would help. Giving regular accounts 8 character slots wouldn't diminish the number of premium accounts imo, but it might increase the number of people playing overall.

[Alashir]

You know, the fact that it is 2014 and this is a text based game might have a little bit to do with this eh?
Or you know...maybe it is just because people disagree with you.

Console sales saw a small decline in growth in 2013 whereas PC gaming saw a 10-20% increased based on the study you look at. This is due in large part of course to Steam and their thriving indie/greenlit projects. There has never been a better time in history for indie/small time projects to thrive than there is now. There has never been a larger audience or player base than at this very moment in time. No one would argue the fact that a text game is a niche market, but I guarantee you that the last reason this game is going places is due to the fact that this is a text-based game.

Simutronics in combination with GSIV's population not only make it difficult for new players to enter, they create what amounts to a hostile environment that encourages active players to leave and new players to look elsewhere. As Spiffy mentioned yesterday, in no world is it possible to walk into a conference room and pitch the idea of any type of game where it's years or more to hit the level cap. It's completely inane. Nonensical. You'd be laughed out of the room and left with shit references to boot.

In this very thread we've had numerous individuals say they do NOT want an experience reduction or increase in leveling speed (however you look at it) but they want more attention on <insert area here, usually capped>. Speeding up the leveling process alleviates every single one of these issues. All of them. It decreases the likelihood of people feeling like they need/have to script and frees up more time to focus on RP and interacting with one another. It condenses the majority of the player base at the same level which allows people not only an easier time with *gasp* interacting with one another, but the dev's to focus on the specific issues people are bemoaning about via hitting cap itself.

The fact that myself or Spiffy has to sell the majority of the player base on this issue is mind blowing. I have to beg, plead, borrow, and steal in order to convince you that hanging out with friends and allowing the dev's to spend more time addressing issues for the greater populace is a good thing?! And please don't start constructing strawmen argument related to leveling overnight or this isn't CoD, or WoW. This is GSIV. No one is arguing for any of those things, but this is something we all love and I'd hate to see it disappear one day.

[Methais]

Spreading people out more is good especially when it comes to capped hunting.

Spreading people out has been one of the worst things to happen to this game. Making it worse would be even...worse.

[Alashir]

I've been hearing about long-term threats to this game for 20 years now. It's still here, and still improving.

What planet do you live on that you could look at this graph 6879 and say the game is still improving?

[Changeling]

Spreading people out has been one of the worst things to happen to this game. Making it worse would be even...worse.

In my opinion it's great and would only be better if they spread us out more. Of course opinions are like assholes and mine smells like shit to other people. :)

Fortunately though all our opinions are garbage in the eyes of Simu so we dont have to worry either way I guess.

[Latrinsorm]

You honestly don't think so? That is a very cute outlook on life.You're going to get such a snippy response from Thondalar for not addressing my points, so I won't pile on.
While I'm certain this would work, at least insofar as reducing the time to cap at least somewhat probably is a good idea and, as we have before, players would adjust to the changes after a time. I question the value of such a change. I agree that we need more post-cap focus in this game in order to retain long-term players of the sort that care to reach the cap in the first place. However, this idea comes at the expense of players not of that sort in two ways: Not only does it hog development for a sweeping overhaul that would likely take quite a long time to put into place, but it would also steal the lower level hunting grounds and hand them over to the high end!There are so many lower level hunting grounds that nobody can hit them all before outleveling them. A little redistribution wouldn't hurt, but the better plan is just to have levels automatically adjust down. It's really not that hard a thing to design: simple fractions for skills and level, leave stats alone because backing them out would be computationally intense, gear/spells/maneuvers are capped at whatever a true level character could do, loot/exp is rewarded at the same rate they would be to a true level character. Of course you should take unintended consequences into account, but you can't let the mere possibility of them paralyze you from changing anything.
I just don't see this idea providing enough benefit to justify turning the game on its head for the next few years. It might even be disastrous, depending upon the reaction. I believe there are less drastic solutions to resolve what I agree 100% is a problem. This game takes too long to do just about everything, it can be tedious, frustrating, boring. And little thought or resources go into providing anything for post-cap players. I recognize that originally that was the intent, but that was over a decade ago now. It's time to update our outlook on this situation as more and more players enter the post-cap and quickly hit the wall where continuing to gain experience and training points provides hardly any practical benefit for hundreds of hours of grinding.XXX cut the time needed to cap in half for casuals, and everyone loves XXX. It was a smooth implementation and within nanoseconds (look it up) everyone was used to and adored it. The same would happen if the exp needed to cap was cut in half, except it would benefit hardcore just as much as casual.
People always joke about how everyone always comes back to gemstone. Its because it takes so long to cap, your character matters to you.For the record, that was never a motivating factor for me coming back, and I have never heard anyone claim it was for them either.
Luckily there are hundreds of games people can play if they want to be a "Bad Ass" in a weekend.

The Great thing about GS is the development of the Character. This takes time.Okay, how much time? After six months, what development do you still need to do that takes you another two and a half years? Who are you, George R. R. Martin???
I've been hearing about long-term threats to this game for 20 years now. It's still here, and still improving.I wonder if you would like this comparison:

1. Gemstone has allegedly had long term threats for 20 years now.
2. Its population is a tiny fraction of what it once was.
3. Therefore, these long term threats really were bad.

1. America has allegedly had socialism for 100 years now.
2. Its debt is a huge multiple of what it once was.
3. Therefore, socialism really is bad.

Eh? :)

[Anebriated]

how about letting unused lumnis stack up for awhile(not unlimited) so casual players get a longer boost when they can play. Doesnt benefit the people who already play a lot. Plenty of graphical MMOs already use the technique.

[Dendum]

What planet do you live on that you could look at this graph 6879 and say the game is still improving?

Though you refuse to admit it....text based games according to your own referenced site are not doing so well...look at Aardwolf it's numbers never go over 400 on an average amount, the only difference is that Gemstone once had a huge player base and it has come down to the industry average.

[Dendum]

In fact lets compare some charts,
since you like to throw them out
http://mudstats.com/ZedGraph/SeasonSpecificGraph/2893
Disc world- one of the more well known MUDS
http://mudstats.com/ZedGraph/SeasonSpecificGraph/2109
Aaerdwolf almost always the number one mud on topmudsites.com/ Also not an RP enforced MUD....at the PEAK almost reached 400 players averaged

http://mudstats.com/ZedGraph/SeasonSpecificGraph/2810
Achaea another popular mud, and one with some interesting play mechanics...at the PEAK never reaches over 300.


Here you have several mud's each one with significant differences....all with mediocre player bases compared to modern graphic MMO's....now you can quote irrelevant PC sales to you are blue in the face it doesn't change the landscape of this industry.

I would suggest looking into what caused these spikes, I would imagine you would see some player incentives to Return...I think GSIV should do that, get people in while the story line Kenstrom running is going full blast, maybe give returning players an RPA orb or some such to use, or maybe a couple of fixskills to play around with (they would get one anyway)

I think Achaea wins because of youtube by the way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v_GvFXceb0#t=78

[AnticorRifling]

how about letting unused lumnis stack up for awhile(not unlimited) so casual players get a longer boost when they can play. Doesnt benefit the people who already play a lot. Plenty of graphical MMOs already use the technique.

Ideally this coupled with a free portal system from a few main towns would be the way to go. Get more people together in the social area of town while allowing easy travel and access to the level appropriate hunting grounds.

Give me a from the landing to RR, Teras, IMT, TI set of portals and a hearth that gets me back to the landing on an hour cooldown. Centralizes the picking, healing, etc community, rescues might take a touch more coordination but still a central hub to account for the player base would be nice. Then if you see there are more and more players coming back you can always plan a story to adjust/kill a portal for the most saturated hunting area and respective city.

[Alashir]

Here you have several mud's each one with significant differences....all with mediocre player bases compared to modern graphic MMO's....now you can quote irrelevant PC sales to you are blue in the face it doesn't change the landscape of this industry.

I don't know anything about those MUD's so I can't comment on them or why they aren't doing well. I already pointed out that text based games are a niche market, but if there was ever a time for them to succeed, it's right now.

Being unable to play with friends, years to cap, a huge price to play, expensive festivals, and lack of consolidated dev time all lead to players decreases and new players looking elsewhere. I already stated that it's not the only reason, but those reasons are not drawing anyone back to the game.

I also don't feel it's irrelevant to state the indie/pc market is booming. Gemstone is PC game and DayZ for instance has made Bohema Interactive tens of millions of dollars and has been in the top 3 best selling games on Steam forever. What's interesting about this is that DayZ is the antithisis of anything like CoD. It's one life, it's slow-paced with moments of frantic terror, and people love it. In addition to DayZ, RPG's have also continued to do better and better every year. There isn't a game that comes out without a solid RPG element to it because the lack of an RPG element is now boring.

I'm not calling you names, I'm not saying you're an idiot, so I'm not sure why you're so reluctant or defensive regarding various ways to make everyone happy in GSIV. None of these proposed changes would affect anyone who enjoys leveling slowly. If you want to login and stare at the sky or do 1 hunt a week, you still can.

[Jarvan]

I don't know anything about those MUD's so I can't comment on them or why they aren't doing well. I already pointed out that text based games are a niche market, but if there was ever a time for them to succeed, it's right now.

Being unable to play with friends, years to cap, a huge price to play, expensive festivals, and lack of consolidated dev time all lead to players decreases and new players looking elsewhere. I already stated that it's not the only reason, but those reasons are not drawing anyone back to the game.

I also don't feel it's irrelevant to state the indie/pc market is booming. Gemstone is PC game and DayZ for instance has made Bohema Interactive tens of millions of dollars and has been in the top 3 best selling games on Steam forever. What's interesting about this is that DayZ is the antithisis of anything like CoD. It's one life, it's slow-paced with moments of frantic terror, and people love it. In addition to DayZ, RPG's have also continued to do better and better every year. There isn't a game that comes out without a solid RPG element to it because the lack of an RPG element is now boring.

I'm not calling you names, I'm not saying you're an idiot, so I'm not sure why you're so reluctant or defensive regarding various ways to make everyone happy in GSIV. None of these proposed changes would affect anyone who enjoys leveling slowly. If you want to login and stare at the sky or do 1 hunt a week, you still can.

If you want to level super fast.. join shattered.

Here is the thing.. new hunting grounds.. voln/col type warcamps.. these things have NOTHING to do with speeding up capping.

There is no reason to speed it up, other then some people don't want to go thru the so called "hassle" of leveling. Why do people always want an "easy" mode for games.

[catch22]

If the point of this discussion is to attract more players, I doubt the leveling curve is the problem. From GS3, it's improved quite a bit. I have no capped character, but have been playing on and off since year 2000. My highest is only like 54. Even if I put my head down and grinded to 100, only for it to suddenly become attainable by everyone and their mom, it would be a little disappointing.

This is a highly level stratified game, and I'd hate to see it change if the only real intent of such a change was to get more people playing. It's a niche market, of course, and the problem isn't getting old players back (that's a good goal, though), it's getting new players to even start in the first place. How do you get someone age 15-20 to try Gemstone? When I was 15 there was no MMO landscape. Gemstone was one of the few ways to play a game with a lot of people, more than my buddies over direct connect or having people over for a LAN on the weekends.

Kids these days expect games in XboxOne/PS4 realm of quality, playing a game with "just" words seems silly. Much could be said for written publications now. Gemstone is to the MMO scene what a publication is to google news (or whatever popular web-based news source you can think).

The gaming industry has seen a large shift toward mobile/social gaming, and can you imagine trying to play gemstone on a mobile device? Granted with the SF you can get a lot done without typing, but I can't imagine trying to do something specific without explicitly entering it with a keyboard. This actually revitalized 2d gaming to large degree, when it was previously all but lost on consoles and PC. Still, no drop back to text, so it does little for us.

The problem is just the archaic nature of the platform, more than anything, not the leveling curve, heck probably not even the pricing. There's some merit to say a F2P basic account might lure in new people, but chances are it would simply give present users easier access to botting/pocket characters, which doesn't improve the health of the game interaction whatsoever. The number is an illusion. How many people are afk/fletching, script hunting, table surfing because they are an alt to another player's main? I know if F2P accounts were free with only one toon, I'd just make 3 accounts and xfer my characters to each in order to spell myself up, pick my boxes, etc without login juggling (and consequently, leveling them each quicker).

They'd be parked at a table. Would the game improve for anyone? No, not really.

Even if a F2P basic account brought in a lot of players, the architecture of GSIV would probably be brought into question. I remember a few times back in the day where we peaked over 1000, and it was not a very pleasant experience. If I recall, it's sending marshaled XML; not exactly efficient for bandwidth.

Alas, this is a wonderful game, but it is old. It is niche. Simutronics knows this, hence why they are developing non-text games for the past decade. It's a blessing they continue to run it for us old timers or the few younger folks who simply have, I don't know, old souls?

[AnticorRifling]

The speed of the cap is fine, some will power through, some will never make it. I don't think we need to attract tons of new players but it would be nice to adapt the landscape so that the current player base can, more easily, interact instead of being so spread. I loved hunting in TI but I hated that it meant I was going to have 0 in game interaction with a lot of my in game friends.

[Kembal]

I voted no. I think GM-run storylines are the main attraction for returning players, not exp mechanics. A whole lot of people have come back in the past few months because of the current storyline.

Does there need to be one more post-cap hunting area (in the Landing, specifically)? Yes.

Voln warcamps would be interesting, but would have to be tied to something post-mastery, I'd think. (what would a CoL warcamp be? hunting giant pink fluffy bunnies?)

(I've got one capped character, and 3 other characters who I never have time to play anymore, but the highest is at level 40.)

[Anebriated]

If they did a capped shan hunting ground it would be the same as a landing hunting ground due to proximity. I like that idea. Shan was a good time.

[Dendum]

The speed of the cap is fine, some will power through, some will never make it. I don't think we need to attract tons of new players but it would be nice to adapt the landscape so that the current player base can, more easily, interact instead of being so spread. I loved hunting in TI but I hated that it meant I was going to have 0 in game interaction with a lot of my in game friends.

GW2 style scaling mechanics would be interesting but I just don't know if they have the devs for it,
I could see a paid event where you show up naked and get your equipment based on level (level 100 you get 0x, level 40 you get 10X enhancives) but as far as the larger open world...just not sure they could do it.

I would like to see moon mage cross realm teleportation moved from DR to GS, sorcs can do it now on an individual level but having a class that can open portals from point a to b would be nice. They use it to good effect in DR to get from event to event in distant areas.

[Hydra]

Someone, or multiple someones, mentioned adding additional character slots to basic accounts. That would allow new players to experiment with different types of characters without having to re-roll every time. I also like the ideas of stacking unused Gift of Lumnis to a point and minor items to help leveling for Simu Coin. Not that I would plan on using them, but those things could help with keep new players around.

[Dendum]

Someone, or multiple someones, mentioned adding additional character slots to basic accounts. That would allow new players to experiment with different types of characters without having to re-roll every time. I also like the ideas of stacking unused Gift of Lumnis to a point and minor items to help leveling for Simu Coin. Not that I would plan on using them, but those things could help with keep new players around.

yea that should be a given...1 character slot is insane.

[Allereli]

yea that should be a given...1 character slot is insane.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/GemStone%20Promotions/Extra%20Character%20Slots/view/2

add your $.02

[Latrinsorm]

There is no reason to speed it up, other then some people don't want to go thru the so called "hassle" of leveling. Why do people always want an "easy" mode for games.There is a reason: more fun, less tedium.

[Changeling]

There is a reason: more fun, less tedium.

It's only tedium when you're impatient. I've been raising a new character without any script hunting and it's great. It's going to take a long time, but it's fun.

[Johnny Five]

It's only tedium when you're impatient. I've been raising a new character without any script hunting and it's great. It's going to take a long time, but it's fun.

Except it's becoming fun to less and less people. That's the point I think they are trying to make. It's like bleeding out.

[Methais]

I still don't understand why Simu refuses to integrate GS into Facebook. It's a massive no brainer.

[Buckwheet]

I still don't get the underlying issue. I am probably just very obtuse.

Kaedra admittedly has 50m experience. Grinded it out all the way 100% manually, no scripts, whatever. I don't care. I really don't. Her Xp level in the game affects my enjoyment...exactly zero. The same goes for everyone who plays the game. The amount of XP you have earned is nothing more than a number and people use it as some big dick they swing around as if it means anything. Gemstone is not hard. All it means if you have spent more time in Gemstone than I have making that number bigger. I was probably watching ice dancing while you were slaughtering your 10,000 Ithzir. Great for both of us.

Whatever amount of experience anyone has is irrelevant. I am capped which means I can go anywhere I want in the game and do ANYTHING. Look at this from another perspective. There was some nubby here complaining about nobody paying attention to them because they were too new, or whatever it was they were crying about. Lets assume for a moment that I had met this person on my capped character that I have beloved, for 20 years! Whatever. They are level 20. I love their roleplay. They play..an elven knight from Vaalor and I find their personality in game AMAZING and PERFECT and whatever else people want to say about a roleplayer's wet dream.

So I want to go kill stuff because I still want to advance my character.

They can't go with me because well they can't get into OTF. They can't handle my bandits and I can't even add them to the bounty. They can't handle my Grim camps. So what people are saying who LOVE the game so much is...oh well fuck you capper! Go roll a new guy or tell your new found friend to fuck off because you can only hang with them when you both feel like not advancing your character. You can heal my wounds or maybe raise my dead corpse. Oh, you want to go on an adventure?!

If I bind your creature you lose xp and loot.
If I attack your creature you lose XP and loot.

So I get to stand here and cast things like..Group bravery and heroism so you can kill shit better...and heal you when you get injured!

I am not saying that the only way to fix that is to decrease the XP to cap or make it faster. I just want it to be fixed so that either you pay more money and can grow faster to catch up to your friends, or they adjust mechanics so that I can partner with someone who is new to the game without doing a totally stupid OOC thing like. "Oh hey I see you are level 20.... /logout. Login level 24 character. Hey there buttercups, my "friend" Mister Capper said you were a cool dude. Lets hang out.

[Jarvan]

Except it's becoming fun to less and less people. That's the point I think they are trying to make. It's like bleeding out.

Technically, Grinding is never supposed to be "fun". And in almost all games it isn't. At least in GS you can MAKE it fun.

[Thondalar]

What planet do you live on that you could look at this graph 6879 and say the game is still improving?

I said the game is improving, I didn't say the number of people playing is increasing. Reading comprehension ftw.

[Gizmo]

I said the game is improving, I didn't say the number of people playing is increasing. Reading comprehension ftw.

No. But improving means it is getting better and/or increasing.

That of which is clearly up to the jury and opinion, considering alot of people consider a decline in population not an improvement.

For a video game, I personally would say it is NOT improving. When the concurrent and new subscriptions INCREASE, then I would say it's improving

[Thondalar]

It's only tedium when you're impatient. I've been raising a new character without any script hunting and it's great. It's going to take a long time, but it's fun.

This is more to the point I was making earlier. Gemstone is more about the journey than the destination. The player base that comes back year after year isn't that interested in capping...that may be because most of them area already capped, or have been capped in the past, but the results of this poll are pretty telling. Just about every other MMO on the market, you can cap a character in a couple months, or a couple weeks if you really grind it. Then you get bored.

There are people who play games like this because they enjoy looking at big numbers, and there are people who play games like this because they enjoy playing games like this. That dynamic will never change.

[Thondalar]

No. But improving means it is getting better and/or increasing.

That of which is clearly up to the jury and opinion, considering alot of people consider a decline in population not an improvement.

For a video game, I personally would say it is NOT improving. When the concurrent and new subscriptions INCREASE, then I would say it's improving

You're an idiot. You don't think that it's possible that the game can get better but yet the player base can still decline? There are no other factors involved in the equation besides quality of the game? Seriously?

[Gizmo]

You're an idiot. You don't think that it's possible that the game can get better but yet the player base can still decline? There are no other factors involved in the equation besides quality of the game? Seriously?

I'm not going to argue, since it's clear you're going to assume the game has improved since 2004 or previous years.

In which ways has it improved by Thondalar's standards?

Because otherwise, the game has not improved from all other factors observing the business standpoint of it all. Or has it improved so much, it's doing better as a company now than before? With all the quitting of employees, firing etc...right?

Again, opinions. And lawl at calling me an idiot for having one.

[Buckwheet]

This is more to the point I was making earlier. Gemstone is more about the journey than the destination. The player base that comes back year after year isn't that interested in capping...that may be because most of them area already capped, or have been capped in the past, but the results of this poll are pretty telling. Just about every other MMO on the market, you can cap a character in a couple months, or a couple weeks if you really grind it. Then you get bored.

There are people who play games like this because they enjoy looking at big numbers, and there are people who play games like this because they enjoy playing games like this. That dynamic will never change.

So let people play how they want. If you want to "race to the top" and hit 60m XP go for it. Let there be a mechanism for that. If you don't want to do that...well..don't hunt, don't use the mechanic, RP more, enjoy the story. Say Avast to every creature you encounter before swinging your sword, apologize for killing it and looting its corpse. Whatever.

This allows people to stare at big numbers that mean nothing, other than level 100 granting access to things or around level 100 granting full access to the game, and it still lets people enjoy it. Maybe don't let the mechanism apply to post cap experience.

Edit: How about this.

How about they put quests in the game that don't matter what level you are. Think "like" BSC in that there is little to no combat and at the end of it you get 10,000 experience in the form of a instant reward plus a saturation. It takes ~1 hour to complete has a one hour cool down timer, and the experience is static no matter what level you are. It could be an escort task from landing to EN or something but without the bandits for combat and maybe it involves solving some puzzles along the way.

[Thondalar]

I'm not going to argue, since it's clear you're going to assume the game has improved since 2004 or previous years.

In which ways has it improved by Thondalar's standards?

Because otherwise, the game has not improved from all other factors observing the business standpoint of it all. Or has it improved so much, it's doing better as a company now than before? With all the quitting of employees, firing etc...right?

Again, opinions. And lawl at calling me an idiot for having one.

You're talking about a business standpoint, I'm talking about the game itself. The options available to players. The content of the game. I'm calling you an idiot for saying the game is bad because less people are playing than in 2004.

[Latrinsorm]

This is more to the point I was making earlier. Gemstone is more about the journey than the destination. The player base that comes back year after year isn't that interested in capping...that may be because most of them area already capped, or have been capped in the past, but the results of this poll are pretty telling.I've yet to see someone advance a reasonable argument for "no", though, so the telling isn't in a good way. The arguments I've seen are:
1. If you could cap in a day the game would die. (Straw man.)
2. Any change might kill the game. (Speculative.)
3. The only reason people play the game is to advance their character, if they can't do that they'll quit. (Self-contradiction.)
4. Certain people don't care if they advance their character. (Irrelevant, and note how people's rationalizations contradict each other.)
5. It's good that people should choose between playing together and mechanically advancing their character. (smh.)
6. A punitive leveling scheme weeds out the riff-raff. (Empirically false.)
7. There is little to do at cap in GS. (The future is not necessarily the same as the present.)
All we're really seeing is the human tendency to distrust change, as well as the human tendency to invent stories about why we want things.

Just about every other MMO on the market, you can cap a character in a couple months, or a couple weeks if you really grind it. Then you get bored.I do not, for the record.
There are people who play games like this because they enjoy looking at big numbers, and there are people who play games like this because they enjoy playing games like this. That dynamic will never change.If people enjoy playing this game, what does it matter whether they cap in 5 years or 5 days? You can't have it both ways, either people enjoy the game or its a chore that they need to mark time on.

[Warriorbird]

I think almost all of the game play has definitely improved over time. I do think there's been a series of bad upper management calls/customer service management disasters during the same time period.

[Gizmo]

You're talking about a business standpoint, I'm talking about the game itself. The options available to players. The content of the game. I'm calling you an idiot for saying the game is bad because less people are playing than in 2004.

If the game isn't worse, why aren't more people playing it? That's what I'm trying to get at.

Typically, when something is on the decline, the player base drops. No matter how much you want to turn the other way and pretend it doesn't, that's typically a good sign in any game that it is on the decline.

To act as if the player amount doesn't matter whatsoever, is foolish. Considering it's the players that make the game. This poll I take super light too, it's on the PC for god's sake, so if you are going by the fact that X option is in the winning race and therefor means it must be true. You are smoking crack, cause I am willing to bet a lot of those votes aren't from people who actually care about the betterment of the game but the betterment of their selfish wallet ways.

So, I guess we're both idiots here then. I'm an idiot, you're an idiot.

[Thondalar]

How about they put quests in the game that don't matter what level you are. Think "like" BSC in that there is little to no combat and at the end of it you get 10,000 experience in the form of a instant reward plus a saturation. It takes ~1 hour to complete has a one hour cool down timer, and the experience is static no matter what level you are. It could be an escort task from landing to EN or something but without the bandits for combat and maybe it involves solving some puzzles along the way.

Similar to an idea I had, something along the lines of level-related quests, that would be one-time things available at different levels with big XP bonuses. Honestly I don't know that much about GSL, I've heard either it's a great system you can do almost anything with, or it sucks balls and is terrible, and I honestly don't know enough about it to form a proper opinion. I don't know how difficult any of this stuff would be to code. I also don't know how many of these ideas we've discussed here have already been discussed on the official forums, because the officials is terrible and I hate using it.

[Thondalar]

If the game isn't worse, why aren't more people playing it? That's what I'm trying to get at.

Because it's a text MUD in 2014? Because the pricing scale is higher than most other online games? Because there are more options? A lot of reasons besides "the game is getting worse". That's what I'm trying to get at.

[Latrinsorm]

Because it's a text MUD in 2014? Because the pricing scale is higher than most other online games? Because there are more options? A lot of reasons besides "the game is getting worse". That's what I'm trying to get at.The game can get better on an absolute scale (gameplay, content) while getting worse on a relative scale (player base, popularity).

This is what we call a win-win-win: Gizmo is right, you're right, and I'm really right for seeing how we're all right. :)

[Buckwheet]

Similar to an idea I had, something along the lines of level-related quests, that would be one-time things available at different levels with big XP bonuses. Honestly I don't know that much about GSL, I've heard either it's a great system you can do almost anything with, or it sucks balls and is terrible, and I honestly don't know enough about it to form a proper opinion. I don't know how difficult any of this stuff would be to code. I also don't know how many of these ideas we've discussed here have already been discussed on the official forums, because the officials is terrible and I hate using it.

Don't make them one time. Reward players for grouping more so than solo hunting/grinding mobs. Let you do them endlessly. This would bring the community together to do things instead of spread apart worrying about grinding out another million xp on level 97 mobs.

[SpiffyJr]

Just about every other MMO on the market, you can cap a character in a couple months, or a couple weeks if you really grind it. Then you get bored.

The millions playing WoW disagree. The millions play FFXIV disagree. The hundreds of thousands playing other MMOs disagree. People don't get bored by getting to cap. They get bored when they run out of content. For you the content is in the low-levels and that's fine, but don't try and place that generalization on everyone.

[Thondalar]

The millions playing WoW disagree. The millions play FFXIV disagree. The hundreds of thousands playing other MMOs disagree. People don't get bored by getting to cap. They get bored when they run out of content. For you the content is in the low-levels and that's fine, but don't try and place that generalization on everyone.

Everyone I know that played WoW when it came out doesn't anymore. They capped all the characters and quit playing after a year or two. Wow was the biggest online game of all time, and even their numbers have steadily dropped. The reason all of us here have played multiple MMOs is because we've capped and got bored. Don't assume because my main is 33rd level I'm content with low-level content, I have other characters much higher level, and I've had a total of 11 capped characters in the past. My point was that the game itself is the content, regardless of level.

[Hightower]

I still don't get the underlying issue. I am probably just very obtuse.

Kaedra admittedly has 50m experience. Grinded it out all the way 100% manually, no scripts, whatever. I don't care. I really don't. Her Xp level in the game affects my enjoyment...exactly zero. The same goes for everyone who plays the game. The amount of XP you have earned is nothing more than a number and people use it as some big dick they swing around as if it means anything. Gemstone is not hard. All it means if you have spent more time in Gemstone than I have making that number bigger. I was probably watching ice dancing while you were slaughtering your 10,000 Ithzir. Great for both of us.

Whatever amount of experience anyone has is irrelevant. I am capped which means I can go anywhere I want in the game and do ANYTHING. Look at this from another perspective. There was some nubby here complaining about nobody paying attention to them because they were too new, or whatever it was they were crying about. Lets assume for a moment that I had met this person on my capped character that I have beloved, for 20 years! Whatever. They are level 20. I love their roleplay. They play..an elven knight from Vaalor and I find their personality in game AMAZING and PERFECT and whatever else people want to say about a roleplayer's wet dream.

So I want to go kill stuff because I still want to advance my character.

They can't go with me because well they can't get into OTF. They can't handle my bandits and I can't even add them to the bounty. They can't handle my Grim camps. So what people are saying who LOVE the game so much is...oh well fuck you capper! Go roll a new guy or tell your new found friend to fuck off because you can only hang with them when you both feel like not advancing your character. You can heal my wounds or maybe raise my dead corpse. Oh, you want to go on an adventure?!

If I bind your creature you lose xp and loot.
If I attack your creature you lose XP and loot.

So I get to stand here and cast things like..Group bravery and heroism so you can kill shit better...and heal you when you get injured!

I am not saying that the only way to fix that is to decrease the XP to cap or make it faster. I just want it to be fixed so that either you pay more money and can grow faster to catch up to your friends, or they adjust mechanics so that I can partner with someone who is new to the game without doing a totally stupid OOC thing like. "Oh hey I see you are level 20.... /logout. Login level 24 character. Hey there buttercups, my "friend" Mister Capper said you were a cool dude. Lets hang out.


Now that you mention it, another idea in a previous discussion involved allowing post-cap players to adjust their effective level at will (or at least via some process that is temporary and can be readjusted fairly easily). Basically, if you were a capped warrior and you adjusted to level 60, all of your skills in excess of level 60 would be capped at the maximum for your class at level 60. As post-cap is to freshly capped, level 60 adjusted post-cap is to level 60.

This would not only allow post-cappers to hunt with lower levels, but it also solves the hunting problem at cap. On the downside, there would likely be some friction resulting from all of the post-cap players suddenly appearing and running rampant through lower level areas. Whether or not that's an acceptable tradeoff depends on your outlook. Anyway, just thought I'd mention it.

~Taverkin

[Thondalar]

Don't make them one time. Reward players for grouping more so than solo hunting/grinding mobs. Let you do them endlessly. This would bring the community together to do things instead of spread apart worrying about grinding out another million xp on level 97 mobs.

I'm meaning specifically targeted quests at certain level points, kinda like Neverwinter Online does...not sure if anyone here has played that, but there are quest-giving NPCs at different locations in the game, and these different locations have different level zones like Gemstone does...it'd be something like, you hit level 40 and go see the Sol Haven guard captain about quelling the Shan uprising...get the quest from him, and a special instance not unlike a warcamp would spawn that only you and your party could access...complete the mission, solve the puzzle, kill the boss, get the item, whatever it is, and return to him for a static XP prize. Something like that at each 5 or 10 level interval.

[Methais]

Everyone I know that played WoW when it came out doesn't anymore. They capped all the characters and quit playing after a year or two. Wow was the biggest online game of all time, and even their numbers have steadily dropped. The reason all of us here have played multiple MMOs is because we've capped and got bored. Don't assume because my main is 33rd level I'm content with low-level content, I have other characters much higher level, and I've had a total of 11 capped characters in the past. My point was that the game itself is the content, regardless of level.

WoW also expands its end game every 2 years. When was the last time end game in GS was expanded? When the Scatter came out how many years ago, which I might add its risk far outweighs its reward and you can get the same rewards from hunting much easier stuff in any other end game area?

[Thondalar]

WoW also expands its end game every 2 years. When was the last time end game in GS was expanded? When the Scatter came out how many years ago, which I might add its risk far outweighs its reward and you can get the same rewards from hunting much easier stuff in any other end game area?

This is true, but that's another symptom of online gaming that I just don't think can be cured. People want more, and more, and more...it's why we play different games. There's only so much one game can do to keep a person interested for X number of years, as far as content goes. Which is why I actually kinda like the Gemstone method...having interactive "storyline" quests that change from time to time, and make players feel like they're having an effect on the game itself. How many graphic MMOs do that? It's always "new expansion, new content!" but what it really is is "go to a new environment and kill more pixels for new gear!". To me, that gets old after a while.

[Jarvan]

If the game isn't worse, why aren't more people playing it? That's what I'm trying to get at.

Typically, when something is on the decline, the player base drops. No matter how much you want to turn the other way and pretend it doesn't, that's typically a good sign in any game that it is on the decline.

To act as if the player amount doesn't matter whatsoever, is foolish. Considering it's the players that make the game. This poll I take super light too, it's on the PC for god's sake, so if you are going by the fact that X option is in the winning race and therefor means it must be true. You are smoking crack, cause I am willing to bet a lot of those votes aren't from people who actually care about the betterment of the game but the betterment of their selfish wallet ways.

So, I guess we're both idiots here then. I'm an idiot, you're an idiot.

I got to ask, How is the game worse?

Is there a break in the code where items mysteriously disappear now? Do char die randomly while standing in town because of a break in the code? When you swing an axe at a critter, does it suddenly teleport you back to the landing for no reason?

Have they added new content since 2004? Or have then deleted content since 2004?

Your opinion is that for the game to improve there has to be more players.

im·prove
imˈpro͞ov/
verb
verb: improve; 3rd person present: improves; past tense: improved; past participle: improved; gerund or present participle: improving

make or become better.

Funny.. I don't see anything in there that says increase in subscriptions.

I think you can point at a few simple things and say it is an improvement over the game in 2004. Hell, we had 2 new classes added since then. Is that not an improvement? Or is it just not the improvement ~you~ want?

[Methais]

This is true, but that's another symptom of online gaming that I just don't think can be cured. People want more, and more, and more...it's why we play different games. There's only so much one game can do to keep a person interested for X number of years, as far as content goes. Which is why I actually kinda like the Gemstone method...having interactive "storyline" quests that change from time to time, and make players feel like they're having an effect on the game itself. How many graphic MMOs do that? It's always "new expansion, new content!" but what it really is is "go to a new environment and kill more pixels for new gear!". To me, that gets old after a while.

Actually I should rephrase what I said.

WoW raises its level cap every 2 years, but it's continuously expanding its endgame content every 6 months or so.

The thing that sucks about storylines in GS is that you have to be on at the right time to be involved in it. It's also scripted for the most part. WoW endgame raiding is also scripted of course, though in an apples and oranges way compared to GS. But WoW's endgame can also be access whenever you want, and also provides tangible rewards.


but what it really is is "go to a new environment and kill more pixels for new gear!". To me, that gets old after a while.

You could also say that GS's endgame is "go to the same environment and kill the same text for bigger numbers on skills that you don't really need!" Which also gets old after a while.

The problem with endgame in GS is after a few post cap goals, you stop becoming more powerful. Instead, you just become more versatile.

That said, I think GS is much better today than it was 10 years ago. The game itself that is, not factoring in the business aspect of it, since Simu upper management never stops being retarded when it comes to increasing the player base as well as maintaining its current player base.

I know I said it earlier, but I'll never understand why Simu refuses to even try to integrate GS into Facebook.

[Thondalar]

Actually I should rephrase what I said.

WoW raises its level cap every 2 years, but it's continuously expanding its endgame content every 6 months or so.

The thing that sucks about storylines in GS is that you have to be on at the right time to be involved in it. It's also scripted for the most part. WoW endgame raiding is also scripted of course, though in an apples and oranges way compared to GS. But WoW's endgame can also be access whenever you want, and also provides tangible rewards.



You could also say that GS's endgame is "go to the same environment and kill the same text for bigger numbers on skills that you don't really need!" Which also gets old after a while.

The problem with endgame in GS is after a few post cap goals, you stop becoming more powerful. Instead, you just become more versatile.

That said, I think GS is much better today than it was 10 years ago. The game itself that is, not factoring in the business aspect of it, since Simu upper management never stops being retarded when it comes to increasing the player base as well as maintaining its current player base.

I know I said it earlier, but I'll never understand why Simu refuses to even try to integrate GS into Facebook.

I agree with all of this, except for the storyline part. While it's true you have to be online to take part in things when they happen, there's no way to avoid that. They could announce when things would happen, which they actually do a lot of times via twitter or in-game messaging leading up to something, but that could take away from the spontaneity of it...also, you pretty much know that things are going to happen during certain times and days because that's when most people are playing and/or GMs are online to run things. With an integrated system where the people running the game interact directly with the people playing the game, that's unavoidable...the people on the giving end are going to be there when they're there. I'll still take that over any game where it's not even a thing, any time of day or night.

[Donquix]

wait...did someone just try to make the argument that wow (or any mmo really) doesn't release enough content to keep up with gemstone?

afk laughing myself literally to death.

[Donquix]

I agree with all of this, except for the storyline part. While it's true you have to be online to take part in things when they happen, there's no way to avoid that. They could announce when things would happen, which they actually do a lot of times via twitter or in-game messaging leading up to something, but that could take away from the spontaneity of it...also, you pretty much know that things are going to happen during certain times and days because that's when most people are playing and/or GMs are online to run things. With an integrated system where the people running the game interact directly with the people playing the game, that's unavoidable...the people on the giving end are going to be there when they're there. I'll still take that over any game where it's not even a thing, any time of day or night.

A flaw inherent to the platform is not any less of a flaw.

[Thondalar]

wait...did someone just try to make the argument that wow (or any mmo really) doesn't release enough content to keep up with gemstone?

afk laughing myself literally to death.

No, nobody made that argument. Feel free to laugh to death, though.


A flaw inherent to the platform is not any less of a flaw.

Having something 50% of the time is better than having something 0% of the time.

[Donquix]

No, nobody made that argument. Feel free to laugh to death, though.



Having something 50% of the time is better than having something 0% of the time.

And every other game has it 100% of the time.

Getting halfway to the level cap in any modern MMO you get more actual story driven, developer created content than GS has had in its entire tenure via normal questing.

Some of it is pretty trite, but so are most of gemstone's "storylines" "robble robble i want to destroy solhaven" <scripted constructs for a week>

Gemstone's longevity is wholly because of players, who have in spite of simu's best efforts to drive the game into the ground, gave most of us enough of a reason to stick around.

Comparing gemstone, in any way, to modern games in terms of content given to you by the people you're actually paying, is an exercise in futility. You have to be a special kind of deluded to even suggest it.

The amount of willful ignorance you display on a regular basis with regards to this topic is nothing short of amazing.

[Fallen]

The game continues to improve with (arguably) every instance of code added to it. The game diminishes whenever its playerbase shrinks. In my mind, the game is stagnant. Improvements come at a snail's pace, and your activity in gemstone is going to be largely the same for years at a time, right down to the hunting grounds and spells/attacks used if capped.

What are the big changes that shook up this system? New professions, new societies, the adventurer's guild, and major mechanical releases such as armor/shield maneuvers and alchemy.

What are we hoping speeding up the leveling process will accomplish? It would condense the playerbase and for some give them an experience that is at best on par with the above improvements until such a time as they cap. In exchange, a fundamental aspect of the game, prolonged time to reach the cap, must be changed, along with a variety of support systems. It doesn't really seem like it's worth the effort.

We need more things to do at nearly any level, rather than just a quicker means of achieving levels. The adventurer's guild was IMO the best addition of the GS4 era. It gave hunting a goal, it provides a faster means of accumulating experience, and it gives you an item which levels up as you do, along with several other benefits. Systems of this nature are what we need to improve the game. It added years worth of entertainment, and scaled with me from level 0 to level 100 and beyond.

[Hightower]

"We need more things to do at nearly any level, rather than just a quicker means of achieving levels. The adventurer's guild was IMO the best addition of the GS4 era. It gave hunting a goal, it provides a faster means of accumulating experience, and it gives you an item which levels up as you do, along with several other benefits. Systems of this nature are what we need to improve the game. It added years worth of entertainment, and scaled with me from level 0 to level 100 and beyond." ~Fallen

I couldn't agree more.

~Taverkin

[audioserf]

The big thing with the player base is it's only going to shrink. People who play GS predominantly are people who've played it for 20 years off and on and have nostalgic ties to it, play it out of habit, etc. Nobody's stumbling across play.net and going, "hey, son of a bitch, a text game. I'll sign up." Gemstone is the Oldsmobile of online gaming.

[Latrinsorm]

This is true, but that's another symptom of online gaming that I just don't think can be cured. People want more, and more, and more...it's why we play different games. There's only so much one game can do to keep a person interested for X number of years, as far as content goes. Which is why I actually kinda like the Gemstone method...having interactive "storyline" quests that change from time to time, and make players feel like they're having an effect on the game itself. How many graphic MMOs do that? It's always "new expansion, new content!" but what it really is is "go to a new environment and kill more pixels for new gear!". To me, that gets old after a while.GW2 does, they call it Living Story. They even use most of the same tropes: invasions, destruction of cities, only a rag tag group of adventurers stand between the world and the Big Bad.
Everyone I know that played WoW when it came out doesn't anymore. They capped all the characters and quit playing after a year or two.Doesn't this prove your own argument wrong? It didn't take them two years to cap in WoW, so clearly they played after capping. Not indefinitely, but for quite a while.
Wow was the biggest online game of all time, and even their numbers have steadily dropped. The reason all of us here have played multiple MMOs is because we've capped and got bored.This is not the reason I have played multiple MMOs. I've only capped in two of them, for starters, so I couldn't possibly have left the others because I capped.
Don't assume because my main is 33rd level I'm content with low-level content, I have other characters much higher level, and I've had a total of 11 capped characters in the past. My point was that the game itself is the content, regardless of level.No game lives on content alone, but on a combination of content and people. Faster capping means more playing together, which means better chance of creating relationships, which means longer playing careers. Return to your memory of WoW. We know the people you know didn't quit after capping, is it more accurate to say they quit when their friends did? Now you see.

[catch22]

The big thing with the player base is it's only going to shrink. People who play GS predominantly are people who've played it for 20 years off and on and have nostalgic ties to it, play it out of habit, etc. Nobody's stumbling across play.net and going, "hey, son of a bitch, a text game. I'll sign up." Gemstone is the Oldsmobile of online gaming.

This. This is what I was trying to convey in my post pages ago. Text game next to XBOX One and seriously, I have a dual GPU SLI 4.5ghz computer... and I play a text game. I also play other graphical games (MMOs, Dota2, etc) but gemstone has the depth I enjoy and it is, well, yeah nostalgic.

Gift of Lumnis, everyone seems to forget about, addresses this concern greatly. Could it be more frequent, or maybe last a little longer without disrupting things? I think so, but do I think it'll have any impact on the number of players online?

Not really. Because again, text-game in an era of big bad computers and mobile devices. We're, as this guy said, the oldsmobile of gaming. It's a niche. Get over it. Even the F2P text muds don't have big numbers because no one wants to read. Same reason newspapers and magazines are dwindling, it's why tv is more popular, etc. etc.

I enjoy the niche. It'd be nice to have a 50% increase in the player base, which could be done by simply bringing back the old players who might bring one or two new faces with them from the various MMOs they've played over the years. But there's no fixing this issue by making capping easier.

[Hightower]

"No game lives on content alone, but on a combination of content and people. Faster capping means more playing together, which means better chance of creating relationships, which means longer playing careers. Return to your memory of WoW. We know the people you know didn't quit after capping, is it more accurate to say they quit when their friends did? Now you see." ~Latrinsorm

To illustrate the point:

Imagine if you took the playerbase we have today and placed it into a game world 5 times the size of our current world. It wouldn't be a good idea for many reasons, but most obvious is the relationship between the size of the game world and the number of players. The fact that several areas of our world are very sparsely populated suggests that we could stand to either have more players or a smaller game world. Another solution is to use game mechanics to encourage players to be in closer proximity to each other. One possible method for accomplishing this goal would be to bring more players into a similar level range. The situation at cap demonstrates that. We don't have much trouble finding hunting partners at cap, no matter which of the 3 capped cities you happen to live in. But hunting partners in the middle levels can be far more difficult to come by.

That isn't to say that I support the idea of a further compression of the level range. As I said before, I'm not sure such an overhaul is the only solution to this problem. I may be naive, but I think the fact that so many of us play console games and other MMOs shows that there is a market for text-based games and we could expand.

I've seen a lot of brand new and returning players recently, and the pace of development does seem to have picked up this past year or two. Or am I imagining it? Ensorcel, shield cmans, monks, UAC, and it sounds like they've been putting some work in on paladins as well. I'm probably forgetting some major additions besides. I just wish some of those resources would go toward something I can use! LoL

~Taverkin

[Methais]

Town portals.

Solves everything.

[catch22]

Yeaaah but they charge for that on the simucoins store...

[Hightower]

Yeah, town portals could solve that problem, too. The idea of creating a feeling of "distance" may not be a worthwhile tradeoff in a world that is too large for the population. Of course, a level compression involves a lot more than simply bringing players closer together! So the idea of town portals isn't exactly case-closed on that one. They could coexist. But just because you can...

~Taverkin

[Buckwheet]

Having something 50% of the time is better than having something 0% of the time.

I would prefer to have 0% AIDS.

[Methais]

Yeah, town portals could solve that problem, too. The idea of creating a feeling of "distance" may not be a worthwhile tradeoff in a world that is too large for the population. Of course, a level compression involves a lot more than simply bringing players closer together! So the idea of town portals isn't exactly case-closed on that one. They could coexist. But just because you can...

~Taverkin

Means you should! Haven't you been to a buffet lately and watched those 400 pounders waddle back and forth for a 15th helping?

There's a reason why Plat has portals, and it's not because people are paying $50 a month for them. Well it is, sorta, because if Plat didn't have portals, people probably wouldn't pay $50 a month for it because nobody in its double digit population would ever see each other, and then they'd stop playing.


I would prefer to have 0% AIDS.

What if you had AIDS, but then you were given the option to not have AIDS 50% of the time?

[Fallen]

Yeah, town portals could solve that problem, too. The idea of creating a feeling of "distance" may not be a worthwhile tradeoff in a world that is too large for the population. Of course, a level compression involves a lot more than simply bringing players closer together! So the idea of town portals isn't exactly case-closed on that one. They could coexist. But just because you can...

~Taverkin

I'm thinking they have a set population level in mind that once reached they will institute town portals.

[Methais]

I'm thinking they have a set population level in mind that once reached they will institute town portals.

I don't see them thinking that far ahead.

[Thondalar]

GW2 does, they call it Living Story. They even use most of the same tropes: invasions, destruction of cities, only a rag tag group of adventurers stand between the world and the Big Bad.

I didn't say none of them do it, it's just not a very common thing. Also, how many GMs play characters during these events? One reason I prefer text gaming to graphic gaming, besides the customization options that are simply impossible to do in graphic games, is the ease of interaction between characters. The vast majority of them, your character runs around in it's own environment, and you talk to people in a little window off to the side. You have some emotes, but it's usually a pretty clunky process to pull them off.


Doesn't this prove your own argument wrong? It didn't take them two years to cap in WoW, so clearly they played after capping. Not indefinitely, but for quite a while.

Notice I said they capped "all the characters". This indicates that they capped more than one character. While even this wouldn't take a year or two, you're going to play for a while post-cap on each to raid for gear and whatnot.


This is not the reason I have played multiple MMOs. I've only capped in two of them, for starters, so I couldn't possibly have left the others because I capped.

...which is why I said "capped and got bored". I was meaning games we did cap in, since those would be the ones interesting enough to begin with to hold us 'till cap. If you got bored with a game before capping, it was probably a pretty crappy game anyway.


No game lives on content alone, but on a combination of content and people. Faster capping means more playing together, which means better chance of creating relationships, which means longer playing careers.

Or it means less players because they get to cap faster and get bored.


Return to your memory of WoW. We know the people you know didn't quit after capping, is it more accurate to say they quit when their friends did? Now you see.

Some probably did, I didn't really send out a survey. They quit after capping several characters, and there basically being nothing to do after cap except raid for gear and pvp.

[Latrinsorm]

I didn't say none of them do it, it's just not a very common thing. Also, how many GMs play characters during these events? One reason I prefer text gaming to graphic gaming, besides the customization options that are simply impossible to do in graphic games, is the ease of interaction between characters. The vast majority of them, your character runs around in it's own environment, and you talk to people in a little window off to the side. You have some emotes, but it's usually a pretty clunky process to pull them off.There are no GMs playing characters. There are also no players sucking up to GMs playing characters. I thought we were talking about affecting the game world, though, when did GMs get into it? The humans are dead.
Some probably did, I didn't really send out a survey...........................................

So you're just making their motivations up as you go? That's the basis of your argument? Ugh, I had this really sweet whiplash reference to heavy metal in the form of Avril Lavigne, but it's not even worth it now. Are you happy now? I don't even want to reference Avril Lavigne.

[Alashir]

At this point in time, it would appear the issue has been beat to death. For better or for worse, most people do not want to level any faster than they currently do. There are so many reasons why it's a good thing to level within X and X amount of time and when that doesn't happen it results in many of the issues that GSIV is facing today. It's also why no other gaming company has ever attempted to do anything remotely similar; it just doesn't make sense. There's the old adage that in order to make an omelette you have to break a few eggs. GSIV was the process of breaking those eggs. It's unfortunate that it's populace feels so strongly against attempting to perfect the omelette (cheesy I know..lol)

I just want to quickly recap the reasoning behind the proposed faster system of leveling:

1) It's very difficult to enjoy any concept of character growth and development when it's weeks in between the most minute of goals. Faster learning gives players a more appreciable view of their own characters evolution.

2) Game balance, and especially balance at the upper/capped areas is extradoinarly difficult to focus on because character levels are so spread out. In addition, even at cap some people are 3, 4, or even 5x that of other characters. Any semblance of balance
would be an absolute nightmare.

3) Lack of content and perks for capped characters. This really feeds back into number 2, but it seems like simu's answer to providing end-game content was to simply create the worlds longest path to get there. Many players have spoken about end-game content in a variety of other games, and simu falls the shortest of them all. Not only is there very little to do at cap, but with how slow characters grow it's a wonder people continue to play at all. As evidence, this thread has multiple people with numerous high-end characters echoing statements to that effect.

4) GSIV prides itself on RP and creating more than just another toon. Players are encouraged to create alternate identities and even personalities. This is completely tossed to the wayside when people feel as though their RP is conflicting with their impossible schedule of leveling and progressing their character. If players are able to level faster they're not as worried about making progress and they feel more at ease to stop and smell the roses once in a while. It's not even smelling the roses it's exploring and developing your character. It's much more difficult to RP a badass warrior when he's level 25 versus 5x capped. My level 30 sorcerer doesn't stand a chance of joining the opposition and major ewaving the entire population of Wehnies in one fell swoop.

5) Friends! I can't even play with the people I chat with the most on either AIM or LNET because we're different levels! I don't even know if I should be calling these people my friends because it's impossible to hunt together and hanging out seems absurd when I'm camped in Illistim and they're running capped bounties in Mule. I'm not saying we don't occasionally cross paths but for fucks sakes, even gaining a level a week in my early 60's is some serious fucking hunting and at that rate it'll still be another year before that character hits cap!

6) Reducing scripting. This coincides with a few other points namely those where people are feeling compelled to level or move up but also want to enjoy RP. An easy solution is to script and often times go AFK scripting. It's strange how many people say scripting is for baddies and they don't do it and would never AFK script but the bigshot thread at 100+ pages and SEVENTY THOUSAND views says otherwise. It might be THE biggest thread on PC. If it's not, it's close to. People start leveling faster and not hunting the same area and the same critters with the same style for weeks and months on end and they wont feel the need to script as much anymore. Why bother when my character is evolving before my very eyes! I want to be a part of that and experience every moment! Well right now, every moment is 1-2 weeks away from the next and maybe I'm jaded but that just doesn't excite me.

7) Increasing the world population. If you knew nothing else about this game other than it was text based and it took 2 years to level a character, that would be enough to turn away 99% of anyone who might be interested. There's no selling that to anyone. Ever. You could sell the idea of people keeping the same characters for years because people have done just that in WoW. Their characters are a part of them. The deeper the RPG goes the more a character becomes a part of you. Personally, I'd be much more inclined to continue on with my character the longer I saw appreciable gains. When you start approaching the walls of significant diminishing returns or feeling as though the work isn't worth the return is when people give up and move on.

Most of the responses to these ideas seem to ignore what has been stated and reply with something along the lines of: "Well that's great, but it's not for me. I do however want more capped hunting areas". How many times have I read that over the course of this thread? What's the point of having a discussion if the opposing side ignores what you're saying? If they're not ignoring what's been stated then they're constructing strawmen involving either "friends that have played MMO's for a few years and then left" or "I'm not turning this into a game where you level to 100 overnight". No one is advocating leveling overnight. No one is advocating leveling anywhere near the speed it would take to hit 90 in WoW. Which by the way, without any type of speed boost or heirlooms at this point would probably be around a month or more assuming 3-4 hours a day 3-5 days a week. Of course that's not acceptable to most people because people because they want to play with friends and explore high-end content so there are many ways around it.

I really wish wish instead of having a discussion about whether or not to increase leveling speed we were talking about how much to increase it. We should be exploring other avenues of ways to involve one another in hunting or new builds or community events and mini-festivals. Instead it's all put on the backburners because GSIV has had a steadily declining population for years and it's never been lower. We haven't bounced back, there hasn't been a resurgance. To some extent we all draw a portion of our enjoyment of this game from the world around us. Being 1st place in a race of no one means precisely dick. There are some hilarious and amazing people in GS (Barumples Barolton anyone?) but as clever and humorous as those people are, their jokes and personalities fall on deaf ears if no one is around to hear them. This game needs new blood and this would be a great start to making that happen.

[Fallen]

Putting aside the fact that people have stated quite defensible reasons why they would be against a massive increase in the speed of leveling, we can certainly move on to how such a change could be implemented.

1. The most likely but least popular would be Simucoin assisted leveling. Whether in the form of buying additional XXX, or flat-out buying experience, this is certainly an option. What would be appropriate? Another XXX for 10 bucks a pop? That would effectively take a year or more off the time to cap, depending on how much you were willing to pay.

2. A permanent quest-based system in which the reward was a means of accelerated experience absorption, or a flat amount of experience. Think adventurer's guild, but a far bigger payoff. There are a variety of ways which this could be accomplished, but the end result is you accomplish X task(s) and get Y experience-based rewards. This would involve a massive amount of development. Good luck with that.

3. New skills, item, or possibly stat-based items or training options which increases your EXP absorption (Or the size of your bucket, or whatever). These would be like the enhancive system, only they apply incremental bonuses to the rate at which you gain experience. This system could implemented via devoting training points points in the mangler, or items you had to wear, or an in-game IC process of setting flags through interactions with NPCs, or entirely OOC. Essentially, you could earn/accrue means of providing yourself experience enhancing abilities. Costs via silvers, cash, time-sinks, etc could all apply for balance purposes. Could be tied into option 2.

4. Modify the existing XXX to make it provide more experience per week.

5. Reduce existing level requirements.

6. Increase the amount of experience earned for a given task (hunting, healing, etc)

7. Modify the current standard rate of experience absorption (how fast your bucket empties)



All are possible, none but number 1 is likely IMO.

[Hightower]

"Most of the responses to these ideas seem to ignore what has been stated and reply with something along the lines of: "Well that's great, but it's not for me. I do however want more capped hunting areas"."


While I'm sure some responses in this thread follow this way, I think you might be misunderstanding what some of us are saying. I'm one of those who said more capped hunting would be nice. I do not, however, think of that as a solution to a problem. It's a stopgap to keep those antsy capped players busy while we work toward a solution.

The problem I have with the idea comes down to the details...

How long would this take to implement? How do we coordinate the various parts of this plan to avoid quickly wrecking the game and slowly fixing it afterwards? What else would need to change along with reducing experience to cap? And are there alternatives that might achieve a similar or at least acceptable outcome with less effort and/or disruption?

I think it could work. The question is how would it work exactly?

~Taverkin

[SpiffyJr]

What about just permanent XXX until 50 or 60? Same effect (reducing time to cap) but nothing else changes and 60+ is still the same grind as before but you can quickly get to where your character starts coming into his or her own.

[Whirlin]

7) Increasing the world population. If you knew nothing else about this game other than it was text based and it took 2 years to level a character, that would be enough to turn away 99% of anyone who might be interested. There's no selling that to anyone. Ever. You could sell the idea of people keeping the same characters for years because people have done just that in WoW. Their characters are a part of them. The deeper the RPG goes the more a character becomes a part of you. Personally, I'd be much more inclined to continue on with my character the longer I saw appreciable gains. When you start approaching the walls of significant diminishing returns or feeling as though the work isn't worth the return is when people give up and move on.

You keep coming back to this point. Where's your justification besides your subjective reasoning would result in an increase in the player base? Have you dont any actual market research, or is this just your current belief system that you're attempting to force onto others like investing in Gemstone Real Estate? This thread has inherently proven the opposite of your beliefs to be true. A majority of people (at the time of this posting, 56/88 votes) are AGAINST messing with the experience system. If anything, I'd say there's evidence that messing with this system would more likely lead to subscription losses rather than gains.

Are you going to keep playing if they don't change the system? Is Spiffy going to quit if they don't change the system?

We're talking about a text based game that's over 20 years old... I don't think they're capturing too much of the market when those two conditions are in place to really have people bitching about how long it takes to level. Hell, subscription fees are likely a bigger barrier than any of that crap.


What about just permanent XXX until 50 or 60? Same effect (reducing time to cap) but nothing else changes and 60+ is still the same grind as before but you can quickly get to where your character starts coming into his or her own.

This would still require a full impact analysis on the other aspects of the game, and would have the same end result as lowering the XP Bar.

Full Chrisms can be created at level 52. Sorcs can Ensorcell at 35... Hell, people already have pocket wizards for enchanting. If anything, this would only incentivize additional pocket characters to fuck with the market and support your main.

[SpiffyJr]

I quit every few months already! Anytime an mmo comes out that I want to play I ditch Gemstone. When that game flops or I get bored I swap back to Gemstone to fill spare time. Sometimes it is 6 months sometimes a year or more. The latest batch of mmos have all been shit.

[Thondalar]

I quit every few months already! Anytime an mmo comes out that I want to play I ditch Gemstone. When that game flops or I get bored I swap back to Gemstone to fill spare time. Sometimes it is 6 months sometimes a year or more. The latest batch of mmos have all been shit.

Thanks for adding more validation to my theory.

[Whirlin]

I quit every few months already! Anytime an mmo comes out that I want to play I ditch Gemstone. When that game flops or I get bored I swap back to Gemstone to fill spare time. Sometimes it is 6 months sometimes a year or more. The latest batch of mmos have all been shit.

Would having a lower XP bar would really keep you playing Gemstone that much longer though?

I think Gemstone is the default for most of us between other games that we're in... apparently validating Thondalar's theory that he must have stated in the last 14 pages of stuff I'm not filtering through.

[Taernath]

Would having a lower XP bar would really keep you playing Gemstone that much longer though?

For me, it's not THE issue but one of many. Gemstone is not an alt friendly game, and lowered XP would encourage people to branch out and try other classes on the way to or at cap. I spent years getting my ranger to where he is, and the prospect of rolling up a monk or paladin is pretty intimidating.

[Androidpk]

Lower the price of the basic account and have it include like 3 character slots.

[Thondalar]

I think Gemstone is the default for most of us between other games that we're in... apparently validating Thondalar's theory that he must have stated in the last 14 pages of stuff I'm not filtering through.

It was more than just that, but that's certainly one aspect, or end result, of it. My comment was more about his getting bored with all these other games within a few months-year tops.


Lower the price of the basic account and have it include like 3 character slots.

Something I've suggested here and on the officials, although I was saying keep the price the same and give a basic account 8 character slots. It's not going to hurt anything, and the people who have premium accounts don't do it just for extra character slots. If that was the case they'd already have just a basic account and pay for the extra character slots anyway.

[SpiffyJr]

Would having a lower XP bar would really keep you playing Gemstone that much longer though?

I think Gemstone is the default for most of us between other games that we're in... apparently validating Thondalar's theory that he must have stated in the last 14 pages of stuff I'm not filtering through.

Yea, mostly because I'm an alt whore and rolling up new characters without the pain in the ass levels 1-30 would be amazing. I like testing out new theories and rebuilding my character. My largest gold-sink in any game by far is talent/build respecs. It's just not easy to do in Gemstone (for roleplay reasons I suppose) so I roll a lot of alts.

Kips, my main, is still really strapped for TPs (about to hit 44). I'm so close to finishing up armor training (150 ranks for support 5) then it should help but we're looking at 10+ levels. I average a level or so a week so I'm several months out from that.

[Gelston]

http://images.mmorpg.com/images/newsImages/82014/WoWCharBoost.jpg

[SpiffyJr]

Thanks for adding more validation to my theory.

Lower the tedium of rolling up a new characters and/or leveling my main and it would stop being my gap filler and instead be my primary game. You're very good at seeing one side of the coin though so ^5 for that.

[Methais]

Know what sucks about leveling up? 99% of it happens while you're not actually killing stuff.

Exp absorption is a retarded mechanic. It made sense when GS was paid by the hour, but now it's just stupid.

[SpiffyJr]

Know what sucks about leveling up? 99% of it happens while you're not actually killing stuff.

Exp absorption is a retarded mechanic. It made sense when GS was paid by the hour, but now it's just stupid.

Hah, remove absorption. Now that's an awesome idea that would never happen. It would discourage RP too much, I think.

[Androidpk]

Hah, remove absorption. Now that's an awesome idea that would never happen. It would discourage RP too much, I think.

I would get behind that idea.

[Sorcasaurus]

Hah, remove absorption. Now that's an awesome idea that would never happen. It would discourage RP too much, I think.

It's really about keeping a bottleneck in the system. Increasing the xp in a "full head" could be a decent change. As it is, prioritizing xp is a very quick hunt, followed by a little downtime. Rinse, repeat. (Or fastest bounty possibly, rest, repeat) Shift the cycle to longer hunts, longer rests, and don't make people choose between getting xp and interacting.

Could just make the number of people sitting around AFK worse? Sure, but that's already an issue and I don't see a bigger xp store changing peoples habits.

[Whirlin]

Know what sucks about leveling up? 99% of it happens while you're not actually killing stuff.

Exp absorption is a retarded mechanic. It made sense when GS was paid by the hour, but now it's just stupid.

I actually considered it a way to balance our pures and squares. Squares could hunt FOREVER whereas a pure eventually probably needs to rest a little bit for mana/spells/whatnots.

[SpiffyJr]

It's really about keeping a bottleneck in the system. Increasing the xp in a "full head" could be a decent change. As it is, prioritizing xp is a very quick hunt, followed by a little downtime. Rinse, repeat. (Or fastest bounty possibly, rest, repeat) Shift the cycle to longer hunts, longer rests, and don't make people choose between getting xp and interacting.

Could just make the number of people sitting around AFK worse? Sure, but that's already an issue and I don't see a bigger xp store changing peoples habits.

I often get fried, turn in bounty, get herb/gem bounty, then sit around AFK for 10-15 minutes and turn that in. Then sit around for another 10-15 minutes before I can hunt again. Unless, you know, I get another gem/herb bounty and the cycle repeats itself.

[Alashir]

Know what sucks about leveling up? 99% of it happens while you're not actually killing stuff.

Exp absorption is a retarded mechanic. It made sense when GS was paid by the hour, but now it's just stupid.

This. I mean, I'd assume it's there to encourage people to RP I guess? IMO it's the worst part about doing bounties. You sit there even longer doing...nothing. I think there's a strong case to be made for the idea of turning off exp absorption. You could even flip it back around and have people absorb less and less XP the longer they're out in the field. You could work with existing idea of central nodes in order to encourage people to congregate in similar areas to recharge their exp absorption modifier. I'd also play with the numbers in order to give people the perception that they're actually making a dent in their progress when they login (ie not turning exp absorption down to zero after 3 minutes of hunting and allowing your exp absorption rate to recharge while you're offline)

I like it because it's similar to the way things have gone on and takes advantage of existing mechanics but I'd like to think it would result in people also being able to make the best use of their time when they login. And Jesus, it could actually give people something to talk about! "Hey I just came from hunting and I found all sorts of great loot, it's lot of fun, looking for a bard and warrior to help me sift through it", etc. I feel like I would have an easier time creating natural dialogue and interacting with others if resting wasn't as forced as it is now. I'd much rather my down time came from things like searching for rogues to open my 32 boxes after a huge hunt, new spells, warriors/bards to identify/assess, etc. Bounties could be tweaked so they provide an increase to exp absorption in the field instead of an addition 15m of forced resting. The list goes on and on.

[SpiffyJr]

The end result is the same thing people in this thread have constantly bitched about. It'll reduce the time to cap.

If you double the absorption rate you double the rate to cap. Same thing different implementation. The problem isn't the implementation it's the change people are so vehemently opposed to.

[Methais]

Hah, remove absorption. Now that's an awesome idea that would never happen. It would discourage RP too much, I think.

Encouraging RP was just a ruse for Simu maximizing the time people stayed logged in while paying for GS by the hour.

They could increase exp requirements by however much they wanted to in exchange for removing exp absorption. People who are more concerned with RP stay level 40 for like 15 years anyway, despite the fact that it takes less than 5 minutes for most people to fry.


I actually considered it a way to balance our pures and squares. Squares could hunt FOREVER whereas a pure eventually probably needs to rest a little bit for mana/spells/whatnots.

Maybe at low levels, but at mid and high levels, a pure's killing speed and not having their RT affected by encumbrance probably balances that out. I'd even say it leans more in a pure's favor at high levels.

I'm pretty sure the only ones that could keep up with my killing speed and rate of sustainability would be another wizard, possibly a pure bard, at least on a self-reliant level. Any pure with Rapid Fire would probably be able to match it. I'm not sure how non-self cast Haste RT reductions work with air lore, but even a square swinging with 1 second RT would struggle to keep up with a Rapid Fire pure, even after factoring in mana.

[Taernath]

Encouraging RP was just a ruse for Simu maximizing the time people stayed logged in while paying for GS by the hour.


We payed our ISP by the hour, not GS. I don't think GS got a cut of that, but I could be wrong.