Sorry guys

[Jeril]

Putting this here to let everyone know what is going on instead of repeating myself to fifty million people.

A couple days ago I got busted for "afk" scripting and because it is the third time within the past 12 months, I guess, I am being locked out for 60 days and will no longer be a mentor. The first time I was completely asking for it as I was really afk scripting just to see how far I could get a character within their first 30 days. The second time, last October, I was just being an idiot and was up later then I should have been. I hadn't read Order of the Stick in quite some time and was just catching up on it, at first I was tabbing back and forth to keep an eye on my characters but after a while I just kind of zoned out and quit doing that and even dosed off for a few minutes at the end, came to and thought to check on my guys only to find out I had been script checked and failed horribly. As a result those two accounts were locked out for 30 days. This last time I ended up paying more attention to a movie on TV then I should have been, commercials rolled around and when I remembered to look at my computer I caught the tail end of a check but not quite quick enough for the GM. It hadn't been for too long and the GM even said it had only been five minutes since they started their check, but me being distracted by the TV, "Wouldn't fly" as they put it.

So as the title says, Sorry guys, sorry I screwed that up and sorry for all the things I'll miss in the next 60 days and all the things I won't be there for. You should be able to catch me on aim just send me a PM with your SN so I can add you, mine is zariskoh, and if you aren't sure I know the name of your character be sure and add that too.

If anyone wants to put a link for this on the officials, feel free.

[Tgo01]

That sucks man.

They kicked you out of being a mentor for this?

[Whirlin]

But now who is gonna correct me when I just make up shit because I'm too lazy to fact check myself?

http://www.gocurrycracker.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/cm-23138-050624abe3a9e6.jpeg

[Dendum]

:bye:

[Gizmo]

They were weary of making me a Mentor, based upon my LNET personality, but ended up allowing me to become one anyways thanks to actual logical choice making.

Being a Mentor can be fun, but lately it's just meh considering how miniscule this game is anymore how just how many accounts are extra's for one person.

There just isn't a good enough player base anymore to really warrant a large base of Mentors, even if the idea is good since they don't just deal with new players.

TL;DR, Less masturbation while playing GS, more actually playing GS.

[Larch]

:bye:

:missu:

[Gweneivia]

I'd be a little disappointed if all script checks for Jeril weren't essentially thinly veiled references to surprise anal. That's how I'm picturing it.

Time to dust off a character in Shattered! :) Just don't forget to come back when your time-out is over.

[Neovik1]

Bah Jeril gone for 60 days! Robin Williams dead! Wtf is gonna happen next??? I'm scared.

[JackWhisper]

Sorry to hear man. See you in two months. =(

[Taernath]

Bah Jeril gone for 60 days! Robin Williams dead! Wtf is gonna happen next??? I'm scared.

Savants have been cancelled.

[Jace Solo]

Bah Jeril gone for 60 days! Robin Williams dead! Wtf is gonna happen next??? I'm scared.

They always say these things happen in 3's...

[zzentar]

I will miss our escort races....

[Buckwheet]

bump to add "get out of jail free" card to the simucoin store. While I understand the afk scripting issue, if you were reported by other players that is one thing, but random script checks should let you pay a "speeding ticket" and move on.

[GS4-Seomanthe]

Bummer, that stinks Jeril. We will miss you! Also, please designate a substitute "frumpy" yeller in your absence... Seo will look very strange yelling it at herself.

Welcome back Jeril party in t-minus 59 days

[Whirlin]

bump to add "get out of jail free" card to the simucoin store. While I understand the afk scripting issue, if you were reported by other players that is one thing, but random script checks should let you pay a "speeding ticket" and move on.

He 68'ed a GM at Simucon.

But yeah, seconded for get out of jail free card.

[Allereli]

this was his 3rd offense in 12 months, they gave him 2 get out of jail free cards. Mentors are held to higher standards.

[Tgo01]

this was his 3rd offense in 12 months, they gave him 2 get out of jail free cards. Mentors are held to higher standards.

I agree mentors should be held to higher standards but that should be for public things. Y'know, cybering in TC or cursing out everyone on thought net or publicly refusing to give me 10 million silvers.

This was afk scripting which presumably no one but Jeril and the staff would have been aware of if Jeril hadn't told everyone.

[Whirlin]

this was his 3rd offense in 12 months, they gave him 2 get out of jail free cards. Mentors are held to higher standards.

What are the acceptability thresholds for non-mentors on afk scripting?

[Allereli]

I agree mentors should be held to higher standards but that should be for public things. Y'know, cybering in TC or cursing out everyone on thought net or publicly refusing to give me 10 million silvers.

This was afk scripting which presumably no one but Jeril and the staff would have been aware of if Jeril hadn't told everyone.

I don't know any of the circumstances of what he was doing when he got caught. Someone might have reported him.

[Allereli]

What are the acceptability thresholds for non-mentors on afk scripting?

Honestly I'm surprised he was allowed to continue as a Mentor with two violations. Looks like it was 3-strikes and time out, sounds reasonable to me for everyone.

[MotleyCrew]

Well that sucks man but, at least you have the balls to come and admit it and not try to blame it on everyone and everything else. Kudos to you for that. See you in 2 months.

[Aluvius]

Wait, Jeril is a player? I thought it was just a lnet meme or a mythical creature like Sasquatch!

[Dendum]

You are still a giant among men in my eyes Jeril...

...mainly because you are a giantman and I play a gnome and even large dogs look gigantic...but ALSO for other reasons...

also...the landing will burn for 60 days now.

[Moonwitch]

Lnet is going to be very quiet without Jeril. Thanks for letting us know so we wouldn't be wondering where the heck you were.

[Methais]

Well that sucks man but, at least you have the balls to come and admit it and not try to blame it on everyone and everything else. Kudos to you for that. See you in 2 months.

Jeril is just being modest.

It was Bush's fault.

[Buckwheet]

Apparently people think Jeril is a retard ruining the game with his afk scriptin



Yeah, lets let retards afk scripting pay 5 bucks and keep ruining the game. Genius

Because you know...afk scripting something like forging is RUINING THE GAME versus afk scripting healing in TSC. You know those are apples to apples comparisons right thar...



How about just not scripting at all? I know it must tough....


Really? There is a entire thing dedicated in the wizard and stormfront to "scripting". Its just understood you don't do it afk. Yet it happens to the best of us that we script something totally dumb like making arrows and get busted. You should be able to pay a penalty that isn't an account warning or lockout either in game or out of game for those offenses. If you are afk scripting in a hunting area "stealing" kills, and being very disruptive that I am all for throwing the book at people.

[Tgo01]

Were you really caught afk scripting forging?

Jeril Jeril Jeril Jeril....JERIL!

Just squelch every game line that pertains to forging and set the script up to play a sound if it sees a game line that isn't one of the strings you just squelched.

[Anebriated]

sucks to hear that man. I got busted once for using the ;haste script on my wizard to heal down my empath. I keep my windows tabbed so I can pay attention to both but had the wrong one in front at that moment. No idea how or why they were watching me at that time but yeah, they can be real assholes.

[Latrinsorm]

Bush agreed to the three strikes and time out policy just before leaving office, how convenient that everyone wants to forget it now.

[Buckwheet]

sucks to hear that man. I got busted once for using the ;haste script on my wizard to heal down my empath. I keep my windows tabbed so I can pay attention to both but had the wrong one in front at that moment. No idea how or why they were watching me at that time but yeah, they can be real assholes.

I got busted once at a table using a "bot" that would spell up only my guy. I wasn't script hunting or anything I just didn't bother to flip to the wizard and type .spellup Buckwheet

It didn't work on anyone but me.

[gs4-PauperSid]

So. . . .do they still take monthly fees / charge your card during the 2 months you're "suspended" ?

[Gelston]

So. . . .do they still take monthly fees / charge your card during the 2 months you're "suspended" ?

No.

Damn scripters.

[Ardwen]

who the hell am I supposed to make bizarre jokes about now, I need a volunteer!

[mighty1u2]

who the hell am I supposed to make bizarre jokes about now, I need a volunteer!

I know right, no talk of surprise butsecks for 2 months.....

[dmac188]

Is there a way to check how many times you've been caught scripting?

[Gelston]

Spam report until someone tells you.

[Rakisak_x]

Dude, no. You make Lnet.

[Buckwheet]

Just do a DR 30 day trial if you can and modify the lnet script to show you as Jeril.

[Parkbandit]

Just do a DR 30 day trial if you can and modify the lnet script to show you as Jeril.

Or just do a trial account in GS and script to see how fast you can get to level 20.

[Buckwheet]

Or just do a trial account in GS and script to see how fast you can get to level 20.

But that is against the TOS! And they could backtrace his IP address and further ban Jeril!

[Dendum]

I like the DR idea, but he may find that Barbarian is a superior class to GS warrior and we may lose Jeril to the dark side!

[Jhynnifer]

Damnit Jeril! =(

I will miss you. (Though I won't miss the hugs and kisses cause you know...)

[Gizmo]

Just do a DR 30 day trial if you can and modify the lnet script to show you as Jeril.

Do this, if of course you are socially inept and need LNET to survive in life..

Or, take your ban with a grain of salt and play another game, or do something else with your time.

[Methais]

But that is against the TOS! And they could backtrace his IP address and further ban Jeril!

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/They_e29749_933510.jpg

http://unhingedmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/jessi.jpg

[nindon]

My armor will be so heavy. Whenever I happen to cross paths with Jeril, he always adjusts my armor without my even having to ask.

[Velfi]

That's a bummer, bro.

[Warriorbird]

My armor will be so heavy. Whenever I happen to cross paths with Jeril, he always adjusts my armor without my even having to ask.

Still a better love story than 50 Shades of Grey.

[JackWhisper]

Still a better love story than Twilight.

[Androidpk]

bump to add "get out of jail free" card to the simucoin store. While I understand the afk scripting issue, if you were reported by other players that is one thing, but random script checks should let you pay a "speeding ticket" and move on.

Have a monthly package, get out of jail cards + item insurance.

[Hightower]

Honestly I'm surprised he was allowed to continue as a Mentor with two violations. Looks like it was 3-strikes and time out, sounds reasonable to me for everyone.

Yeah, rules are rules I suppose. As much as I think Jeril's contributions to the game as an official and unofficial mentor far outweigh these minor infractions, AFK scripting is a problem and we can't exactly acknowledge that while flouting the rules intended to address it.

Seeya when ya get back, Jeril.

~Taverkin

[Methais]

Yeah, rules are rules I suppose. As much as I think Jeril's contributions to the game as an official and unofficial mentor far outweigh these minor infractions, AFK scripting is a problem and we can't exactly acknowledge that while flouting the rules intended to address it.

Seeya when ya get back, Jeril.

~Taverkin

While Jeril's gone, Tgo needs to write a script so Jeril can afk script being a mentor.

The fact that he got kicked out of being a mentor is irrelevant.

[SpiffyJr]

Yeah, rules are rules I suppose. As much as I think Jeril's contributions to the game as an official and unofficial mentor far outweigh these minor infractions, AFK scripting is a problem and we can't exactly acknowledge that while flouting the rules intended to address it.

Seeya when ya get back, Jeril.

~Taverkin

I don't think it's a problem. I think a few minority whiners make it a larger problem than it really is.

[Parkbandit]

I don't think it's a problem. I think a few minority whiners make it a larger problem than it really is.

That's what Shattered is for.. afk script until you are so bored with the game, everyone quits.

[SpiffyJr]

I don't think it's a problem. I think a few minority whiners make it a larger problem than it really is.

Figured I'd get a little neg rep on that one. Boy did I underestimate. At least grow a pair and sign it you spineless fucks.

**EDIT** Edited for politeness.

[Alashir]

I got busted once at a table using a "bot" that would spell up only my guy. I wasn't script hunting or anything I just didn't bother to flip to the wizard and type .spellup Buckwheet

It didn't work on anyone but me.

That is terrifying.

[Aiska]

Well that sucks man but, at least you have the balls to come and admit it and not try to blame it on everyone and everything else. Kudos to you for that. See you in 2 months.

This. See you when you get back bro.

[Buckwheet]

Figured I'd get a little neg rep on that one. Boy did I underestimate. At least grow a pair and sign it you spineless fucks.

**EDIT** Edited for politeness.

Fuck no. You get busted for AFK scripting and you should get a one-way trip to shattered. Fuck you and every other AFK scripting douche out there.

Something like that? Apparently AFK scripting anything makes us all douches. All those douches who script traveling to EN afk! Curse you.

[Stretch]

Gemstone is surious bidness.

[Alashir]

I have to wonder if experience absorption were markedly increased if people would feel the need to script hunt as much as they do. The sensation of your character growing, learning, changing, and adding new abilities is key to my immersion and enjoyment. The older I get the slower this happens and it gets to the point where progress is measured in months or even years. I think GSIV's hardest selling point isn't the fact that it's a text based game (which IMO is a selling point), but rather it's the fact that it moves so slowly. I'm not making the case that no one would ever script in a million years if it took less time to improve/level your character, but merely that it would significantly decrease.

I realize there are many players who have characters that have achieved god-tier status at 2, 3, 4, and 6x cap would be upset by this, but at the same time what's the point of playing this game if you're the only one there?

[Warriorbird]

I have to wonder if experience absorption were markedly increased if people would feel the need to script hunt as much as they do. The sensation of your character growing, learning, changing, and adding new abilities is key to my immersion and enjoyment. The older I get the slower this happens and it gets to the point where progress is measured in months or even years. I think GSIV's hardest selling point isn't the fact that it's a text based game (which IMO is a selling point), but rather it's the fact that it moves so slowly. I'm not making the case that no one would ever script in a million years if it took less time to improve/level your character, but merely that it would significantly decrease.

I realize there are many players who have characters that have achieved god-tier status at 2, 3, 4, and 6x cap would be upset by this, but at the same time what's the point of playing this game if you're the only one there?

Things don't get better because of nerfs. Scripting in this game has existed for ages. Instead think of all the people who have left the game because of the policies.

[Alashir]

Things don't get better because of nerfs. Scripting in this game has existed for ages. Instead think of all the people who have left the game because of the policies.

By nerfing I'm assuming you're referring to "nerfing" or decreasing the amount of experience needed in order to go from level x to level y. You didn't provide an example as to how this was the case so I'm assuming that's what you meant. While people have no doubt left for reasons related to policy, this game has decreased from an active player base around 2500 to an active base that hits ~350 for a few hours at peak times.

My initial point was that because it takes so long to move from level x to level y many people resort to scripting as a means of circumventing the large amount of time it takes to gain experience. As a result, one of the most well known members of our little community has a 60 day timeout. Knowing that our population has decreased by an order of magnitude over the last 15 years, something is happening to not only not attract new players, but drive away existing customers.

Explaining to a new potential customer that level 100 is the cap and spending 3-4 hours a day will take you upwards of several years or more to reach it is a hard sell. I don't see many new people signing on for that kind of challenge and this is evidenced by our population's massive decline over the last decade.

[Warriorbird]

By nerfing I'm assuming you're referring to "nerfing" or decreasing the amount of experience needed in order to go from level x to level y. You didn't provide an example as to how this was the case so I'm assuming that's what you meant. While people have no doubt left for reasons related to policy, this game has decreased from an active player base around 2500 to an active base that hits ~350 for a few hours at peak times.

My initial point was that because it takes so long to move from level x to level y many people resort to scripting as a means of circumventing the large amount of time it takes to gain experience. As a result, one of the most well known members of our little community has a 60 day timeout. Knowing that our population has decreased by an order of magnitude over the last 15 years, something is happening to not only not attract new players, but drive away existing customers.

Explaining to a new potential customer that level 100 is the cap and spending 3-4 hours a day will take you upwards of several years or more to reach it is a hard sell. I don't see many new people signing on for that kind of challenge and this is evidenced by our population's massive decline over the last decade.

Of course it is difficult to explain. The system started with an excuse to bill people the max hourly rate. The upshot of the scripting policy is just more driven away customers, however, and my Savants in 2017 line seems eerily prophetic. They're not going to change the experience system more because they're busting more scripters, so rooting for those people being driven away as customers gets you nothing. Its like rooting for a certain profession's skill to be nerfed, your profession usually ends up with nothing.

[Jace Solo]

XXX should just be constant ;)

[SpiffyJr]

Fuck no. You get busted for AFK scripting and you should get a one-way trip to shattered. Fuck you and every other AFK scripting douche out there.

Something like that? Apparently AFK scripting anything makes us all douches. All those douches who script traveling to EN afk! Curse you.

Yea! AFK script checks for ;go2! Make it so!

[SpiffyJr]

Things don't get better because of nerfs. Scripting in this game has existed for ages. Instead think of all the people who have left the game because of the policies.

How is that a nerf exactly?

**EDIT** Nevermind, saw your reply. I should read the whole thread first.

[SpiffyJr]

By nerfing I'm assuming you're referring to "nerfing" or decreasing the amount of experience needed in order to go from level x to level y. You didn't provide an example as to how this was the case so I'm assuming that's what you meant. While people have no doubt left for reasons related to policy, this game has decreased from an active player base around 2500 to an active base that hits ~350 for a few hours at peak times.

My initial point was that because it takes so long to move from level x to level y many people resort to scripting as a means of circumventing the large amount of time it takes to gain experience. As a result, one of the most well known members of our little community has a 60 day timeout. Knowing that our population has decreased by an order of magnitude over the last 15 years, something is happening to not only not attract new players, but drive away existing customers.

Explaining to a new potential customer that level 100 is the cap and spending 3-4 hours a day will take you upwards of several years or more to reach it is a hard sell. I don't see many new people signing on for that kind of challenge and this is evidenced by our population's massive decline over the last decade.

I've had several people express interest in this game when I went to tell them about the mechanics, vast world, all the things you could do, and the fantastic combat. Then I told them it took me 6 months of 24/7 afk scripting to cap (which is only the beginning) my character. They bolted pretty fucking fast at that point.

**EDIT** This is especially true for newer generations of gamers. MMOers chase the carrot. The problem with Gemstone is the carrot moves very very very slowly. Yes, this game should be about RP and blah blah blah but you know what? No one likes to RP a pussy who gets killed by roaming sheep. They want to be a bad ass on the front-lines helping defeat impending doom. Spelling up other people so they can be bad ass is hardly fun. And don't give me that "they send in low mobs to invade too" shit. The capped characters come in and blast them away for funsies.

[Light]

Just ban everyone who doesn't use telnet.exe.

In all seriousness, the game is undead because it does not draw new players in. It's both sad and hilarious that modern MMO's which spend hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars on development, art, staff, upkeep costs, can survive and thrive on a free to play model while a 30 year old mud with no art, minimal and mostly unpaid staffing, and insignificant upkeep costs somehow just can't manage it? It's foolishness. There's literally no other way to describe it. And while the game isn't going to shut down tomarrow, it's certainly never going to grow again under current management and so will never increase in profitability. Maybe that's fine, the game has had a good long life.

I don't really know Jeril, but I know a great many players respect his contributions to the game and the community as a whole. In an always shrinking community, banning people like that is pretty fucking dumb and only serving to speed along the inevitable death of the game. Sorry to be a downer, but it is how it is.

(TIA for the anon red rep that's surely incoming.)

[Candor]

Explaining to a new potential customer that level 100 is the cap and spending 3-4 hours a day will take you upwards of several years or more to reach it is a hard sell.

Several years? It took me 15. And I am hardly the only one who can make that sort of claim.

Of course, I didn't play every day. There were periods of weeks and in a few cases months when other priorities took me away from the game.

[Candor]

Just ban everyone who doesn't use telnet.exe.

And no baud rates over 2400!

And yes, when I started playing GS I was using a 2400 baud modem, and at the time that was lightning fast...

[SpiffyJr]

It's a shame to see all this fantastic new development go to waste on us old timers (I'm 30). Bringing in some fresh blood would be so awesome. There ARE muds out there and there ARE people willing to pay. Most the people I know that have played MUDs haven't even heard of this game.

[Gelston]

In all seriousness, the game is undead because it does not draw new players in. It's both sad and hilarious that modern MMO's which spend hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars on development, art, staff, upkeep costs, can survive and thrive on a free to play model while a 30 year old mud with no art, minimal and mostly unpaid staffing, and insignificant upkeep costs somehow just can't manage it? It's foolishness. There's literally no other way to describe it. And while the game isn't going to shut down tomarrow, it's certainly never going to grow again under current management and so will never increase in profitability. Maybe that's fine, the game has had a good long life.

It is surviving as far as I can tell. Those F2P games also usually have around 100kish players and those players buy crap in the cash shops. Usually they don't start as an F2P, but even if they do, you generally have to buy the game to play it... See GW2 for instance. Text based games don't have the appeal that they used to have 10-20 years ago. Even the free to play MUDs aren't near what they used to be.

[Light]

It is surviving as far as I can tell. Those F2P games also usually have around 100kish players and those players buy crap in the cash shops. Usually they don't start as an F2P, but even if they do, you generally have to buy the game to play it... See GW2 for instance. Text based games don't have the appeal that they used to have 10-20 years ago. Even the free to play MUDs aren't near what they used to be.

If by surviving you mean less players every year, then yes. Those F2P games have large playerbases because they are.. get ready for it.. F2P. Young adults generally don't have 30$+ a month to spend, and if they do, spending it on a 30 year old text game isn't all that appealing. However once someone is addicted to a game they will generally spend what cash they have on it if the cash shop is designed in an intelligent way.

I'm not sure muds have any more or less appeal then they did 15 years ago, the target audience is very much the same as it was then, the market is simply saturated with graphical games that teenagers and young adults can play for free if they chose.

Most of the F2P market is not a one time fee, GW2 and D3 are exceptions, not the norm. There is a fair share of games that start as subscription based then go f2p when the memberbase begins to decline. They do this to extend the lifespan of the game and maximize the income they can yield until it becomes unprofitable to continue keeping it online. I wonder if there is another company we'd all be familiar with that might be able to learn something from that? Also, all of those games have large investment costs into development of said games, muds do not.

I'm not going to derail Jeril's thread any further, it sucks he got banned in what is essentially a lottery as almost everyone who plays does script (non-afk) and it's simply a matter of being checked at the wrong time. Your doorbell rings, you gotta take a shit, you fall asleep in your computer chair, whatever. Banning paying customers who are not creating mischief or causing harm in a game with a playerbase this small is dumb, and I have yet to hear any argument made that would convince me otherwise. Do I think people should be able to afk-script MA 8 accounts 24/7? No. There is a level of common sense the staff should be using when doing these checks which quite plainly, they are not. Maybe the level of professionalism goes down when you pay your employee's the rough equivilent of a mcdonalds lunch every month. /shrug

[Gelston]

If by surviving you mean less players every year, then yes. Those F2P games have large playerbases because they are.. get ready for it.. F2P. Young adults generally don't have 30$+ a month to spend, and if they do, spending it on a 30 year old text game isn't all that appealing. However once someone is addicted to a game they will generally spend what cash they have on it if the cash shop is designed in an intelligent way.

I'm not sure muds have any more or less appeal then they did 15 years ago, the target audience is very much the same as it was then, the market is simply saturated with graphical games that teenagers and young adults can play for free if they chose.

Most of the F2P market is not a one time fee, GW2 and D3 are exceptions, not the norm. There is a fair share of games that start as subscription based then go f2p when the memberbase begins to decline. They do this to extend the lifespan of the game and maximize the income they can yield until it becomes unprofitable to continue keeping it online. I wonder if there is another company we'd all be familiar with that might be able to learn something from that? Also, all of those games have large investment costs into development of said games, muds do not.

I'm not going to derail Jeril's thread any further, it sucks he got banned in what is essentially a lottery as almost everyone who plays does script (non-afk) and it's simply a matter of being checked at the wrong time. Your doorbell rings, you gotta take a shit, you fall asleep in your computer chair, whatever. Banning paying customers who are not creating mischief or causing harm in a game with a playerbase this small is dumb, and I have yet to hear any argument made that would convince me otherwise. Do I think people should be able to afk-script MA 8 accounts 24/7? No. There is a level of common sense the staff should be using when doing these checks which quite plainly, they are not. Maybe the level of professionalism goes down when you pay your employee's the rough equivilent of a mcdonalds lunch every month. /shrug

Surviving mean that it is making money still. The target audience has shrank heavily compared to what it was back then. WoW has the largest player base and wait for it... It isn't F2P. Also, the game doesn't cost $30 a month, however, that still isn't a lot of money, even when I was a 16 year old working my first job.

Most of the F2P market started as B2P and had a sub, and then went F2P. Some are still B2P, most offer an upgrade package, and whats more, almost all of them offer a subscription service. As far as I can tell, ALL MUDs have been on a steady downward spiral since around 2003 or 2004.... Which coincides with the huge rise in graphical MMO popularity.

As you said, MUDs don't have huge investment costs, so it doesn't need a huge playerbase, and as other threads concerning playerbase have shown, the playerbase has stayed roughly the same for the last couple years.

[Light]

The target audience has shrank heavily compared to what it was back then.

I don't think you understand what target audience means.


WoW has the largest player base and wait for it... It isn't F2P.

Really? For true?


Also, the game doesn't cost $30 a month, however, that still isn't a lot of money, even when I was a 16 year old working my first job.

So then it makes sense to you that every modern mmo charges 15$ or less if it's subscription based, increasingly more often free to play, but a 30 year old mud charges double that? To a millionaire 500$ a month on entertainment is pocket change, to a single mother on low income it's a fortune. Both are potential customers, the trick is to allow people with large budgets to pay a lot if they chose, and those with small budgets to play and contribute to the community. It makes for a healthier more diverse community.


Most of the F2P market started as B2P and had a sub, and then went F2P. Some are still B2P, most offer an upgrade package, and whats more, almost all of them offer a subscription service.

My point exactly, f2p with a subscription option. I feel like we're going in circles here mate.



As far as I can tell, ALL MUDs have been on a steady downward spiral since around 2003 or 2004.... Which coincides with the huge rise in graphical MMO popularity.
As you said, MUDs don't have huge investment costs, so it doesn't need a huge playerbase, and as other threads concerning playerbase have shown, the playerbase has stayed roughly the same for the last couple years.

So you somehow took what I said about almost no development cost to mean theres no need for a large playerbase? What kind of fucked up logic are you operating under?

Anonymous Red reps so far:

"You're a fucking moron, Im shocked you can tie your own shoes"

Ah PC, you never disappoint. ^_^

[StrayRogue]

I don't give a shit about the F2P vs. P2P models - personally the game has other issues that don't make it "worth it" for me. The money isn't the issue.

But to get to the point, I'd like to give credit to the OP whom I thought was going to end his post bemoaning the GM's for slamming him with the banhammer. He's taken his beating like a man, and the fact he's apologised is pretty stand-up. So well in.

[Anebriated]

Back on the scripting topic, I do agree that complete afk scripting should not be allowed. However I feel that they need to be a little more lenient on the people who respond immediately after being pulled. Between the screen scroll and the fact that shit does happen IRL they need to cut us some slack once in awhile instead of trying to be a hardass all the time. My only recent script check was when we were having a hospital bed delivered and I had to quickly go grab the dog so they could leave the door open to move it in. In the ~1 minute it took me to do that I was checked and the GM told me that I BARELY responded in time and then lectured me on AFK scripting. Also of note the checks no longer show up in monster bold. I can understand trying to change up the message to keep scripters on their toes but wouldnt making it a bright color help those of us actually at our keyboards?

[SpiffyJr]

Surviving mean that it is making money still. The target audience has shrank heavily compared to what it was back then. WoW has the largest player base and wait for it... It isn't F2P. Also, the game doesn't cost $30 a month, however, that still isn't a lot of money, even when I was a 16 year old working my first job.

Most of the F2P market started as B2P and had a sub, and then went F2P. Some are still B2P, most offer an upgrade package, and whats more, almost all of them offer a subscription service. As far as I can tell, ALL MUDs have been on a steady downward spiral since around 2003 or 2004.... Which coincides with the huge rise in graphical MMO popularity.

As you said, MUDs don't have huge investment costs, so it doesn't need a huge playerbase, and as other threads concerning playerbase have shown, the playerbase has stayed roughly the same for the last couple years.

Name MMO's since the release of WoW that's a successful subscription based model and not gone f2p. I bet you can't name name 3.

[Whirlin]

Back on the scripting topic, I do agree that complete afk scripting should not be allowed. However I feel that they need to be a little more lenient on the people who respond immediately after being pulled. Between the screen scroll and the fact that shit does happen IRL they need to cut us some slack once in awhile instead of trying to be a hardass all the time. My only recent script check was when we were having a hospital bed delivered and I had to quickly go grab the dog so they could leave the door open to move it in. In the ~1 minute it took me to do that I was checked and the GM told me that I BARELY responded in time and then lectured me on AFK scripting. Also of note the checks no longer show up in monster bold. I can understand trying to change up the message to keep scripters on their toes but wouldnt making it a bright color help those of us actually at our keyboards?

I agree. Hell, I think the window should be opened from 1 minute to about 3 minutes for response times, with monsterbold or other key things like says or whispers on the notifications. There's so much ambient messaging nowadays that simply didn't exist before with weather, time, new hunting ground ambiance. A lot of stuff we've basically been conditioned to mentally filter while hunting. If people are TRULY afk, they'll miss all 3 minutes of notifications. There's a difference between multi-tasking and being fully AFK.

A good test for a GM would be to spawn as a dead character in the hunting ground, and see if someone stops/interacts. That would be an awesome realistic AFK check.

[Aiska]

A good test for a GM would be to spawn as a dead character in the hunting ground, and see if someone stops/interacts. That would be an awesome realistic AFK check.

I laughed out loud at this. It'd work all of twice before the shitheel network plugged in some kind of rescue subroutine, but at least some good would come of it.

[Buckwheet]

I laughed out loud at this. It'd work all of twice before the shitheel network plugged in some kind of rescue subroutine, but at least some good would come of it.

A rescue subroutine doesn't work if the GM has super powers to prevent things like a raise or not being able to be dragged etc.

[Whirlin]

I laughed out loud at this. It'd work all of twice before the shitheel network plugged in some kind of rescue subroutine, but at least some good would come of it.

It was more a concept... Play a character that runs in yelling "Chasin" on a mob that you're in the midst of killing. Be stunned/on the ground, etc. Pretend to be human interaction.

I could see scripts halting, but a full rescue subroutine would be rough. Think of the logistical differences between a halfling wizard trying to get a giantman warrior out of OTF versus a Sorcerer, versus a bard.



Plus... we already have some forms of script check notifications in place with bigshot, with the popup windows and whatnot... and how effective have those been?

[Doldrum]

Can you imagine how irate you would all be if someone got banned for an afk script check for not rescuing someone? I would pay for them to run a script check like that just once just to see the 500 page thread here on the PC about how unfair it is and how incredibly dumb it is you now have to rescue dead people or be thought an afk scripter.

[Aiska]

words

You misunderstand, I think it's beautiful

[Alashir]

I've had several people express interest in this game when I went to tell them about the mechanics, vast world, all the things you could do, and the fantastic combat. Then I told them it took me 6 months of 24/7 afk scripting to cap (which is only the beginning) my character. They bolted pretty fucking fast at that point.

**EDIT** This is especially true for newer generations of gamers. MMOers chase the carrot. The problem with Gemstone is the carrot moves very very very slowly. Yes, this game should be about RP and blah blah blah but you know what? No one likes to RP a pussy who gets killed by roaming sheep. They want to be a bad ass on the front-lines helping defeat impending doom. Spelling up other people so they can be bad ass is hardly fun. And don't give me that "they send in low mobs to invade too" shit. The capped characters come in and blast them away for funsies.

I wholeheartedly concur. It's difficult to RP a raging barbarian warrior if you have trouble killing squirrels and kobolds. I actually spoke with Roblar about this issue last night and he said he'd rather see the game driven into the ground versus play one that had a reduced amount of time needed to level from 0 - 100. When I brought it up on lnet I was told "Lol instant gratification newb". Apparently needing less than several years from start to cap means you're all about instant gratification. As I explained earlier however, I feel as though it's more about feeling your character grow and change.

Both Roblar and Lnet's comments are interesting and I think indicative of the majority of this games population. It's been a certain way a long time and I'll be damned if it's changing now. I think that as a result of this reluctance to change or even a have a dialogue about pursuing things differently in combination with the way simutronics has approached this game leaves virtually no option for new players to join up. I'd go on to further argue that this system is openly hostile to new players. A wide open game world that's difficult and confusing to navigate (the sooner simu adopts lich the better), years spent going from zero to cap, the largest fee of any pay to play video, event costs tha range from $10 - $200, need I go on?

What new player would say yes to all of that? And why as current players aren't we more concerned about this? Isn't it more fun with more people around? What's the point of being the most uber badass on the planet if you're the only person on the planet?

[Buckwheet]

Can you imagine what would happens if your armor/shield/weapon had the capability to earn energy and grow with you like a bounty badge? The ability to apply points to enchants, weighting, padding etc. People would freak out, but I am all for it.

Instead of adding more and more uber items with static stats they need to bring in fresh blood and even if they don't make leveling faster, providing more benefits TOO leveling would be awesome.

[Tgo01]

Can you imagine how irate you would all be if someone got banned for an afk script check for not rescuing someone? I would pay for them to run a script check like that just once just to see the 500 page thread here on the PC about how unfair it is and how incredibly dumb it is you now have to rescue dead people or be thought an afk scripter.

I actually had a GM give me a little talk once because I didn't stop to help a dead player. I kindly informed him it was another character of mine that I didn't feel like rescuing so I was going to let him decay.

[Doldrum]

Its also the reason why most of us still play. If you could "win" this game in a month of steady play you would probably feel a sense of accomplishment but would you keep playing? The years it takes the non afk scripters to cap helps with connecting to the character. Its why you see so many players flipping out OOCly about stuff. It also gives you plenty of time to forge strong friendships which also helps make playing more enjoyable. Not every book is a short story, not every game has to be won in a few months.

[Tgo01]

As for the how long it takes to level thing; I have to agree that I think how long it takes to cap is fine. I know a lot of players these days are used to playing games like WoW or Diablo 3 where you can cap in an afternoon but that's been one draw for a lot of people in GS I think. They don't want to cap in an afternoon, much less do they want to max out all skills in two days.

[Buckwheet]

Its also the reason why most of us still play. If you could "win" this game in a month of steady play you would probably feel a sense of accomplishment but would you keep playing? The years it takes the non afk scripters to cap helps with connecting to the character. Its why you see so many players flipping out OOCly about stuff. It also gives you plenty of time to forge strong friendships which also helps make playing more enjoyable. Not every book is a short story, not every game has to be won in a few months.

I disagree. I play to have fun. If tomorrow Sabreon was made available to me $100 I would buy him for no other reason than..because. I would have a decent amount of "fun" and would probably play around with him for years to come. When I get bored...I go play some other character or another game. There is no "winning" Gemstone. Atleast, nobody has provided a decent enough definition of "winning Gemstone" other than "having fun".

[Doldrum]

I disagree. I play to have fun. If tomorrow Sabreon was made available to me $100 I would buy him for no other reason than..because. I would have a decent amount of "fun" and would probably play around with him for years to come. When I get bored...I go play some other character or another game. There is no "winning" Gemstone. Atleast, nobody has provided a decent enough definition of "winning Gemstone" other than "having fun".

I think you play for different reasons than most. Im not saying they're wrong reasons but I dont view it as normal. In general, what I said is true for most. Lots of people buy characters but not a lot of people buy and sell characters in the volume you do.

[Taernath]

Both Roblar and Lnet's comments are interesting and I think indicative of the majority of this games population. It's been a certain way a long time and I'll be damned if it's changing now. I think that as a result of this reluctance to change or even a have a dialogue about pursuing things differently in combination with the way simutronics has approached this game leaves virtually no option for new players to join up. I'd go on to further argue that this system is openly hostile to new players. A wide open game world that's difficult and confusing to navigate (the sooner simu adopts lich the better), years spent going from zero to cap, the largest fee of any pay to play video, event costs tha range from $10 - $200, need I go on?

Like a lot of other games, those at the top are afraid of others stealing their thunder with less time/effort/whatever spent. It doesn't matter if it might be good for the game overall.

[Alashir]

As for the how long it takes to level thing; I have to agree that I think how long it takes to cap is fine. I know a lot of players these days are used to playing games like WoW or Diablo 3 where you can cap in an afternoon but that's been one draw for a lot of people in GS I think. They don't want to cap in an afternoon, much less do they want to max out all skills in two days.

Your response is very similar to those that many players have voiced and further solidifies my previous post that most people would rather see this game destroyed than have a dialogue about the possibility of changing mechanics to draw new people in. If we were to talk about changing how long it takes to go from zero to 100, it doesn't mean that it has to change from 2 years to 1 day. I mean, of course that's ridiculous. WoW at this moment does have a button to go from 0-90 instantly. What WoW also has are millions of players with hundreds and thousands of days played accrued. I don't want this game to be WoW I want it to be GSIV, but how low does the population have to get before people start taking action to figure something out. The lower the population gets, the harder it will be to bounce back. It's going to be that much more difficult to sell this game with 8 people in it versus the ~350 it has now.

[Buckwheet]

I think you play for different reasons than most. Im not saying they're wrong reasons but I dont view it as normal. In general, what I said is true for most. Lots of people buy characters but not a lot of people buy and sell characters in the volume you do.

Don't confuse buying and selling with playing. I have several characters that are "mine" and not for sale and never have been. I don't consider facilitating character sales "playing" Gemstone.

Also, if what I am doing is not "normal", the characters are going "somewhere". So I challenge how you are coming up with your quantity of "most".

[Tgo01]

I don't want this game to be WoW I want it to be GSIV

But you want the time taken to level shortened yet that's part of what makes GS...GS.


how low does the population have to get before people start taking action to figure something out. The lower the population gets, the harder it will be to bounce back. It's going to be that much more difficult to sell this game with 8 people in it versus the ~350 it has now.

I think you're putting too much stock in people leaving/not getting interested in GS on how long it takes to cap. I'm sure that turns some people off pretty fast but anyone who has invested even just a couple of months into GS doesn't suddenly say "Hey, it sucks how long it takes to cap. I'm quitting."

I do think part of the draw to GS for a lot of people is the time required to invest in your character. Look at the post cap goals thread; full of people saying "Got another million experience!" because it's an actual accomplishment. If people could get a million experience every week then no one would care.

[Buckwheet]

I think the more frustrating element is not how long it takes to cap, but even if your friend wants you to come play, if they are level 25 its going to take you a long time to catch up. There is no method once you are outside the 10 level range to really "go play" with your friend and do the most common activity to advance your character. I mean, how many of the long time players are just going to roll up fresh and play with a friend from 0-cap and then come back to your old capped character a couple years later?

[Latrinsorm]

Back on the scripting topic, I do agree that complete afk scripting should not be allowed. However I feel that they need to be a little more lenient on the people who respond immediately after being pulled. Between the screen scroll and the fact that shit does happen IRL they need to cut us some slack once in awhile instead of trying to be a hardass all the time. My only recent script check was when we were having a hospital bed delivered and I had to quickly go grab the dog so they could leave the door open to move it in. In the ~1 minute it took me to do that I was checked and the GM told me that I BARELY responded in time and then lectured me on AFK scripting. Also of note the checks no longer show up in monster bold. I can understand trying to change up the message to keep scripters on their toes but wouldnt making it a bright color help those of us actually at our keyboards?The problem with this argument is you don't have to leave the script running when you go AFK. You can pause it, stop it, or even log out.
Its also the reason why most of us still play. If you could "win" this game in a month of steady play you would probably feel a sense of accomplishment but would you keep playing? The years it takes the non afk scripters to cap helps with connecting to the character. Its why you see so many players flipping out OOCly about stuff. It also gives you plenty of time to forge strong friendships which also helps make playing more enjoyable. Not every book is a short story, not every game has to be won in a few months.All this talk of free to play and pay to play, the most important question is whether the game is fun to play. I capped my first character in a month in GW2 and I still play her regularly because the game is fun. (They also have a solution to characters of different levels playing in the same area which obviously helps a lot, but even if they didn't I would still have loads of enjoyable options.) If the experience isn't fun and you're merely ticking off marks towards an arbitrary number, that's not a game, it's a chore. Nobody says "well I've played 100 games of baseball, that's done! Never gonna play that again." Right? Of course right.

[Tgo01]

I think the more frustrating element is not how long it takes to cap, but even if your friend wants you to come play, if they are level 25 its going to take you a long time to catch up. There is no method once you are outside the 10 level range to really "go play" with your friend and do the most common activity to advance your character. I mean, how many of the long time players are just going to roll up fresh and play with a friend from 0-cap and then come back to your old capped character a couple years later?

Yeah that is true, starting fresh with a friend who is level 50 does kind of suck.

[Tgo01]

Nobody says "well I've played 100 games of baseball, that's done! Never gonna play that again." Right? Of course right.

I sure as heck did in high school. "10 games of baseball required for PE this year? Well that's done! NEVER AGAIN!"

[Buckwheet]

I sure as heck did in high school. "10 games of baseball required for PE this year? Well that's done! NEVER AGAIN!"

Ironically its what got me to quit playing WoW. What? This is the 50th time we have done this raid and we STILL don't have the item(s) we need? Fuck this shit.

[Alashir]

I think the more frustrating element is not how long it takes to cap, but even if your friend wants you to come play, if they are level 25 its going to take you a long time to catch up. There is no method once you are outside the 10 level range to really "go play" with your friend and do the most common activity to advance your character. I mean, how many of the long time players are just going to roll up fresh and play with a friend from 0-cap and then come back to your old capped character a couple years later?

THIS! And IMO this is related to cap. It's extraordinarly difficult to play with friends in any game where you level up which is why people often just say "hey, meet you at cap" because the play different amounts of time or at different hours, etc. If your friend started GSIV 6 months ago though, you and him or her wont see each other for how long? Years? A decade maybe? It'll never happen.

In addition to having a tough time playing with friends or just attaining max level, it's very difficult to balance a game whose population is so spread out as a result of it taking years to cap. This means capped players get none of the love they should be getting regarding hunting grounds, capped perks, new abilities/spells/skills to go with their capped status. It's just too much going on in too many different places.

[Anebriated]

The problem with this argument is you don't have to leave the script running when you go AFK. You can pause it, stop it, or even log out.

This is correct. I was caught off guard when the doorbell rang an hour earlier then expected(they said they would arrive between noon and 3pm but showed up at 11am). I paused scripts on 2 of the 3 accounts I had logged in but mistyped on the last one due to haste. Thats the one they went after. Our dog goes nuts when strangers are at the door and I had to bring her into the office where my computer is so that my roommate could deal with the delivery of the hospital bed. Honestly when you have a roommate dieing of cancer making sure my scripts were all paused came in second to the delivery of her essential needs. GMs dont make exceptions though.

[Methais]

XXX should be changed to 6 hours or instant exp gain instead of 3x absorption.

[Buckwheet]

THIS! And IMO this is related to cap. It's extraordinarly difficult to play with friends in any game where you level up which is why people often just say "hey, meet you at cap" because the play different amounts of time or at different hours, etc. If your friend started GSIV 6 months ago though, you and him or her wont see each other for how long? Years? A decade maybe? It'll never happen.

In addition to having a tough time playing with friends or just attaining max level, it's very difficult to balance a game whose population is so spread out as a result of it taking years to cap. This means capped players get none of the love they should be getting regarding hunting grounds, capped perks, new abilities/spells/skills to go with their capped status. It's just too much going on in too many different places.

It is also exacerbated to some degree when people in the mid levels are getting larger rewards for again, doing the most common activity available to advance your character. All that is waiting for you at cap is a sense of accomplishment, an even more boring treadmill, and less consistent reward for continuing to run on the treadmill.

[Latrinsorm]

I think you're putting too much stock in people leaving/not getting interested in GS on how long it takes to cap. I'm sure that turns some people off pretty fast but anyone who has invested even just a couple of months into GS doesn't suddenly say "Hey, it sucks how long it takes to cap. I'm quitting."

I do think part of the draw to GS for a lot of people is the time required to invest in your character. Look at the post cap goals thread; full of people saying "Got another million experience!" because it's an actual accomplishment. If people could get a million experience every week then no one would care.This is the problem with arbitrary numbers. A million experience is an accomplishment because it takes X hours to get. If the game was changed so that it only took X/10 hours... then ten million experience would be the same accomplishment as a million used to be, and you could derive the same satisfaction from it.
I think the more frustrating element is not how long it takes to cap, but even if your friend wants you to come play, if they are level 25 its going to take you a long time to catch up. There is no method once you are outside the 10 level range to really "go play" with your friend and do the most common activity to advance your character. I mean, how many of the long time players are just going to roll up fresh and play with a friend from 0-cap and then come back to your old capped character a couple years later?I mentioned this in my last post but I may as well fully elaborate on it now. Guild Wars 2 has the following protocol for effective character level:

1. Every zone has a maximum allowed level. If your character's actual level is above it, they are scaled down while in that zone.
2. Some zones have a minimum allowed level (the level cap). If your character's actual level is below it, they are scaled up while in those zones.
3. Therefore everyone can play with everyone at all times on a reasonably level playing field.
4. Therefore everyone can play with everyone at all times and obtain reasonably similar rewards (experience, loot, etc.).
5. Profit.

The scaling does not exactly replicate what your character would be at any given level, and the specifics make it so that well-made capped characters always have an advantage and thus there is a point to leveling. With that said, a brand new character being at a disadvantage in a capped zone is a lot better than how useless even a level 70 character is in the Scatter(? I don't know what's capped these days in GS).

[Tgo01]

This is the problem with arbitrary numbers. A million experience is an accomplishment because it takes X hours to get. If the game was changed so that it only took X/10 hours... then ten million experience would be the same accomplishment as a million used to be, and you could derive the same satisfaction from it.

Except that one you reach the "hard" cap then experience becomes meaningless so if it only took 10 weeks to get 10 million experience then it's much less of an accomplishment because everyone has already reached hard cap by now.

And yes, I realize in probably just another 2-3 years we'll have people in prime reaching hard cap. They will be GODS!

Same thing with WoW. When the game was first released people were actually excited when they reached certain level points. Now it's just log on one day, next day you're capped and expecting everyone else to run you through raids to get you all free and easy gear.

[Latrinsorm]

I sure as heck did in high school. "10 games of baseball required for PE this year? Well that's done! NEVER AGAIN!"Fair enough. If you want to be a communist quitter like Terrence we can keep the same level system in GS.
This is correct. I was caught off guard when the doorbell rang an hour earlier then expected(they said they would arrive between noon and 3pm but showed up at 11am). I paused scripts on 2 of the 3 accounts I had logged in but mistyped on the last one due to haste. Thats the one they went after. Our dog goes nuts when strangers are at the door and I had to bring her into the office where my computer is so that my roommate could deal with the delivery of the hospital bed. Honestly when you have a roommate dieing of cancer making sure my scripts were all paused came in second to the delivery of her essential needs. GMs dont make exceptions though.I would think that such a scenario would also make you unfazed by whatever punishment you received.

[Luntz]

I've been script checked after leaving my script going accidentally overnight, I fell asleep after a week of moving heavy furniture friday night, woke up saturday to a gm pulling me. I responded and was completely honest, took responsibility and was prepared to be banned, but she let me off with an inefficiency penalty/24 hour lockin instead of a 30(or actually probly 60) day ban.

Taking responsibility for your actions can work out for ya sometimes heh, just don't quote me on it next time ya get pulled.

[Furryrat]

Beautifulgreen.

[Anebriated]

Not really. It made me more annoyed that the GM sat there and lectured me on AFK scripting when I was barely afk for more than a minute or two. The GM is a known bitch who goes after people who hunt her PC areas. The roommate with cancer is gone now and GS has been a good way to calm down from the whole situation. Had I actually received a ban for that I would have been PISSED

[SpiffyJr]

Its also the reason why most of us still play. If you could "win" this game in a month of steady play you would probably feel a sense of accomplishment but would you keep playing? The years it takes the non afk scripters to cap helps with connecting to the character. Its why you see so many players flipping out OOCly about stuff. It also gives you plenty of time to forge strong friendships which also helps make playing more enjoyable. Not every book is a short story, not every game has to be won in a few months.

Do people play WoW still? You cap in that game in a freaking week when new expansions come out. Make post-cap TPs cost the same as they do now for the "paragon" leveling a la Diablo 3.

[Alashir]

It is also exacerbated to some degree when people in the mid levels are getting larger rewards for again, doing the most common activity available to advance your character. All that is waiting for you at cap is a sense of accomplishment, an even more boring treadmill, and less consistent reward for continuing to run on the treadmill.

I agree, but it doesn't have to be that way if this game were designed so that people capped in a reasonable amount of time (which is once again, up for debate) and capped players and hunting grounds started to receive a significant chunk of the pie in regards to dev time.

[Alashir]

Do people play WoW still? You cap in that game in a freaking week when new expansions come out. Make post-cap TPs cost the same as they do now for the "paragon" leveling a la Diablo 3.

WoW had just under 8 million subs at the end of 2013. It's not the 14m it was ~10 years ago but, they're doing pretty well especially given the fact that they've formally announced their next-gen Titan project is in the works.

[SpiffyJr]

But you want the time taken to level shortened yet that's part of what makes GS...GS.



I think you're putting too much stock in people leaving/not getting interested in GS on how long it takes to cap. I'm sure that turns some people off pretty fast but anyone who has invested even just a couple of months into GS doesn't suddenly say "Hey, it sucks how long it takes to cap. I'm quitting."

I do think part of the draw to GS for a lot of people is the time required to invest in your character. Look at the post cap goals thread; full of people saying "Got another million experience!" because it's an actual accomplishment. If people could get a million experience every week then no one would care.

Keep post-cap goals the same time as it is now. Reduce pre-100 requirements. Squash the hunting grounds to a smaller spread. Reopen current hunting grounds as capped areas. Win, win, win, win, and win. I don't know how many times I've heard capped people bitch that there aren't enough capped hunting grounds.

[Whirlin]

In addition to having a tough time playing with friends or just attaining max level, it's very difficult to balance a game whose population is so spread out as a result of it taking years to cap. This means capped players get none of the love they should be getting regarding hunting grounds, capped perks, new abilities/spells/skills to go with their capped status. It's just too much going on in too many different places.

In terms of new mechanical changes. You're correct, capped players have nothing specifically catered towards them. However, Storylines often have some component of conflict/invasion/whatnot. Plot is really an endgame activity. While lower levels can attempt to participate, it's really where the more established capped players shine. Both because they can utilize relationships with other characters, and also by simply having the ability to be a meaningful front lines fighter when the invasion occurs.


XXX should be changed to 6 hours or instant exp gain instead of 3x absorption.
I could agree with buffing Lumnis. Dunno if I'd go so far as to say instant XP gain though... It's a little unbalancing at lower levels between pures and squares. And at cap, I'd just 515 525 all of OTF for hours upon hours.

[SpiffyJr]

WoW had just under 8 million subs at the end of 2013. It's not the 14m it was ~10 years ago but, they're doing pretty well especially given the fact that they've formally announced their next-gen Titan project is in the works.

I was being sarcastic. I work for ZAM (Wowhead.com) so whether I like it or not I'm intimately familiar with that game's population.

[Whirlin]

Do people play WoW still? You cap in that game in a freaking week when new expansions come out. Make post-cap TPs cost the same as they do now for the "paragon" leveling a la Diablo 3.

It's kinda aligned...

From level 99 to level 100 in gemstone is 112.5k XP. During that level, I generated 52 PTP, 56 MTP. This equates to PTPs earned every 2163 XP, and MTP earned every 2008 XP.

For reference, from 89 to 90, it's 2098 per PTP, and 1945 per MTP
From 69 to 70, it's 1950/1839
From 59 to 60, it's 1887/1778
From 39 to 40, it's 1648/1550

[Fallen]

At what level do you think a given profession comes into its own? Do you really have to be capped in order to feel that your character is powerful?

I'd say at level 70-80 a Sorcerer comes into their own. They can, depending on tertiary skill investment, effectively use the vast majority of their spells and abilities. 70ish is a long, long ways from cap. I can't recall the halfway point (isn't it around level 66?). Whatever it is, would most of you argue at that level your character is still ineffectual and far inferior to those at the cap? From what I recall, there was no real difference between level 90-100 despite the ungodly amount of grinding to get those last 10 levels. When does diminishing returns start to kick in pre-cap?

If anything, it's gear that truly separates characters after a certain point, especially for physical characters. Talk about a truly lopsided system in terms of starting from scratch versus established wealth.

[SpiffyJr]

At what level do you think a given profession comes into its own? Do you really have to be capped in order to feel that your character is powerful?

I'd say at level 70-80 a Sorcerer comes into their own. They can, depending on tertiary skill investment, effectively use the vast majority of their spells and abilities. 70ish is a long, long ways from cap. I can't recall the halfway point (isn't it around level 66?). Whatever it is, would most of you argue at that level your character is still ineffectual and far inferior to those at the cap? From what I recall, there was no real difference between level 90-100 despite the ungodly amount of grinding to get those last 10 levels. When does diminishing returns start to kick in pre-cap?

If anything, it's gear that truly separates characters after a certain point, especially for physical characters. Talk about a truly lopsided system in terms of starting from scratch versus established wealth.

Most semi's I've played pick up in the 50's quite a bit. Paladins and bards seem more strapped for TPs than Rangers and open up substantially the higher they get.
Pure's take 50 levels at 3x spells just to have access to all their spells.
My warrior is 43 and just finished armor training which will help but is still extremely tight on TPs. It'll be well into his 70's before I can say he's mostly complete.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I hope my Cleric picks up in her 50's, because the 40's have been a real bitch trying to hunt alone. I need to level her two to three times before getting near enough TPs to make much improvement. Good gear definitely helps but it only gets you so far at least at the early middle stage.

[Anebriated]

I have found that MA hunting is better than having good gear and makes the earlier levels much more manageable.

[Fallen]

I have found that MA hunting is better than having good gear and makes the earlier levels much more manageable.

Very true. Just getting a full compliment of outside spells does wonders to making early levels tolerable.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I have found that MA hunting is better than having good gear and makes the earlier levels much more manageable.

This is definitely true.

[Luscinia]

At what level do you think a given profession comes into its own? Do you really have to be capped in order to feel that your character is powerful?


63/64 is about the halfway point. But I would say that characters become fun to play around level 20, maybe more depending on profession. Clerics who can't resurrect, empaths who can't fully self-heal, warriors who can't wear plate armor -- they're not fully formed characters.

I didn't mind the time to cap (and I've never even used wander scripts for hunting), but I've given up on every alt after about the first month because I can only get to around 12/13 on a sane playing schedule, then fixstats/skills are gone and there's still several months of grinding to acquire core profession abilities.

[Buckwheet]

This is definitely true.

I found this to also be true through post cap. You can slack on certain skills while boosting things like scroll reading/MIU to wear outside spells in the burst areas that would make up for the loss in DS/AS from some of the more core skills.

[Parkbandit]

Do people play WoW still? You cap in that game in a freaking week when new expansions come out. Make post-cap TPs cost the same as they do now for the "paragon" leveling a la Diablo 3.

I just got back into it... god dammit. Capped 4 characters, working on a 5th now so when expansion comes out, I can play whatever I want.

[Methais]

Beautifulgreen.

Didn't she used to bang GMs irl in exchange for text goodies?

[Methais]

Keep post-cap goals the same time as it is now. Reduce pre-100 requirements. Squash the hunting grounds to a smaller spread. Reopen current hunting grounds as capped areas. Win, win, win, win, and win. I don't know how many times I've heard capped people bitch that there aren't enough capped hunting grounds.

That's because there aren't enough capped hunting grounds.

Which I don't think people would mind as much if they weren't getting better loot on their level 30 alt most of the time.

[SpiffyJr]

That's because there aren't enough capped hunting grounds.

Which I don't think people would mind as much if they weren't getting better loot on their level 30 alt most of the time.

If it was faster to get to cap more of the population would be cap which means more development time would be spent for cap. The same people bitching about more capped hunting grounds are the people that don't want faster pre-100 leveling (while keeping post-100 the same).

e.g., let's say it takes 7 million XP to cap. Empath has 3.5M experience. 2x capped warrior has 14m xp (7M post cap).

Reduce the cap requirements to 3.5M. Empath is now level 100. Warrior now has 10.5m post-cap experience (at the same TP cost as it is now). Result: empath is 100 and warrior is more powerful than he was.

Overnight the number of 100's has increased dramatically. Convert the 50+ hunting grounds to level 100 and add in some new flavoring which reduces hunting pressure and opens up more areas for the capped people to hunt. Spread out the < 50 hunting grounds to the new 1-100 as people will be spending less time in that range. Once complete focus all resources on end-game (level 100+) development only and balancing.

I'm probably missing some glaring flaw in my plan to rule the world and I'm sure the PC will enlighten me.

[Whirlin]

I'm probably missing some glaring flaw in my plan to rule the world and I'm sure the PC will enlighten me.

The last 5 pages were just highlighting how the draw of the game is how long it takes to cap. It's a feature, not a bug.

[Alashir]

The last 5 pages were just highlighting how the draw of the game is how long it takes to cap. It's a feature, not a bug.

It's not a feature if it's driving the game into the ground. As Spiffy mentioned, you reduce the time to cap, you get more people at cap, you get more playing together, and more time is spent on development at an area where everyone benefits. I don't think anyone is asking to get to 100 overnight, but taking years to cap seems to not only encourage players to leave and discourage new players from joining, but current players to script 24-7 to get around those time constraints.

[SpiffyJr]

The last 5 pages were just highlighting how the draw of the game is how long it takes to cap. It's a feature, not a bug.

Do you want to know why ESO was a large success 1-50 and a major failure from VR1-12? It's because of the time required with little to no character improvement in the latter part of the game. The company (ZeniMax) has acknowledged it and is removing the entire system.

The niche that Gemstone has carved out is a dying breed. If it's going to have any success in the future it needs to adapt and the people need to adapt with it. It pisses me off to no end that the game I've played and enjoyed for 19 years is dwindling away to nothing because the company and people playing it are too fucking stubborn and/or set in their ways to accept some change.

[Neovik1]

They should make triple experience normal experience and call it a day. :)

[Whirlin]

It's not a feature if it's driving the game into the ground. As Spiffy mentioned, you reduce the time to cap, you get more people at cap, you get more playing together, and more time is spent on development at an area where everyone benefits. I don't think anyone is asking to get to 100 overnight, but taking years to cap seems to not only encourage players to leave and discourage new players from joining, but current players to script 24-7 to get around those time constraints.

Are you even reading replies to your posts, or are you just rehashing the same argument over and over again? You even STARTED 5 pages ago by stating that the player base would rather keep the cap where it is, and that you're in a minority position.


I actually spoke with Roblar about this issue last night and he said he'd rather see the game driven into the ground versus play one that had a reduced amount of time needed to level from 0 - 100. When I brought it up on lnet I was told "Lol instant gratification newb". As I explained earlier however, I feel as though it's more about feeling your character grow and change.

This sentiment was echoed by Others

Its also the reason why most of us still play. If you could "win" this game in a month of steady play you would probably feel a sense of accomplishment but would you keep playing? The years it takes the non afk scripters to cap helps with connecting to the character. Its why you see so many players flipping out OOCly about stuff. It also gives you plenty of time to forge strong friendships which also helps make playing more enjoyable. Not every book is a short story, not every game has to be won in a few months.


As for the how long it takes to level thing; I have to agree that I think how long it takes to cap is fine. I know a lot of players these days are used to playing games like WoW or Diablo 3 where you can cap in an afternoon but that's been one draw for a lot of people in GS I think. They don't want to cap in an afternoon, much less do they want to max out all skills in two days.

You haven't even defended your basis that it's driving the population into the ground. This entire thread was spawned off of a single person getting kicked for AFK scripting. This is no way the end of Gemstone as we know it... there's just gonna be a little less anal referencing, just like we saw in the days after Loralaii quit.

[SpiffyJr]

I'm actually curious so I'm going to open up a poll for funsies and see what happens. The forum population isn't a very good representation of the game population but it should be interesting to see the results.

Assuming, of course, people don't load alts to skew the results. /shrug

[Donquix]

Do you want to know why ESO was a large success 1-50 and a major failure from VR1-12? It's because of the time required with little to no character improvement in the latter part of the game. The company (ZeniMax) has acknowledged it and is removing the entire system.

The niche that Gemstone has carved out is a dying breed. If it's going to have any success in the future it needs to adapt and the people need to adapt with it. It pisses me off to no end that the game I've played and enjoyed for 19 years is dwindling away to nothing because the company and people playing it are too fucking stubborn and/or set in their ways to accept some change.

To be fair, there were many problems with ESO aside from VR being a kick in the nuts for no reward. That was a major one, though. I still remember getting a VR level for the first time and being like "oh...i don't even get a fucking skill point for this? That's cool..."

As for gemstone i'd wager the difficulty isn't a huge draw for most of even the adorable nano-sized player base that remains, some people sure, but the differentiation over similar products are the amount of customization and the social interaction (and the cold, lifeless grip of decades of nostalgia from the formative years for many of us)

most games you get a sword that is basically like every other sword, but with bigger numbers! you can get that in gemstone or you can get a talking one...or one that has a new unique flare type, or a cool ambient script, and you can make it "look" exactly how you want, etc. etc. it's difficult for graphical games to compete with that. And when you get tired of that one, you can sell it and get a completely different one. That's the real carrot.

Difficulty is nice, but there's probably a happy medium somewhere between a month to cap in an MMO and 2+ years in gemstone.

[JackWhisper]

I played ESO with Galdreth, Anebriated, Brift, Attoll, Polveiss, Gelston, and several others from Gemstone. Not one of us stayed. The overwhelming majority of reasons stemmed from the combat NOT being fluid *The hugest sticking point was the rogue-type having to click an ability 4 times to get it to happen once. It was bullshit. And it wasn't fixed for months after we quit*. Another reason was, as Don said, VR was absolute bullshit. I won't lie though, I'm damn happy that they removed VR. How are they doing post-level 50 now? How interesting.

Gemstone takes forever to play because of how people assume you have to be pigeonholed. It takes a substantial amount of time if you consider 'God. I've got 72 more levels to hit 100.' Just.. take it a day at a time. Set goals. 'I want 8k xp today.' That's 5, maybe 6 10-minute hunts. Less if you do bounties. I'm just saying, Gemstone is fun for me because of how I make the game work for me. It isn't the same for everyone, but that's part of why Gemstone is grand. Plus, scoring The Hulk on a neck tattoo was just effing hilarious to me.

[Anebriated]

the stealth class was better at tanking than my sword/board tank :( damn glitches

[Alashir]

Are you even reading replies to your posts, or are you just rehashing the same argument over and over again? You even STARTED 5 pages ago by stating that the player base would rather keep the cap where it is, and that you're in a minority position.



This sentiment was echoed by Others




You haven't even defended your basis that it's driving the population into the ground. This entire thread was spawned off of a single person getting kicked for AFK scripting. This is no way the end of Gemstone as we know it... there's just gonna be a little less anal referencing, just like we saw in the days after Loralaii quit.

I figured it was obvious that the sentiment shared by others was hypocritical. You can't both desire more capped hunting areas and more attention to capped players while simultaneously pushing away legitimate solutions. This sentiment has been echoed by numerous individuals and I'm trying to point out how ludicrous it sounds that any number of people would rather have their game driven into the ground and destroyed versus making an adjustment and adapting to the times.

I have defended my point that the overwhelming amount of time required for this game is driving this game is driving it into the ground. You're a numbers guy, so hopefully you can appreciate a few of them and notice that our population is 1/10th of what it used to be ~15 years ago. While it's impossible to conclusively pin this down to any 1 factor, it's not possible to sell a game where it takes years to cap a character. This was evidenced earlier by several people stating they've talked to friends about it and their friends said never in a million years would they consider it as a result of how long it takes to level.

GSIV is a game that in addition fun combat mechanics prides itself on RP. It seems ironic that in a game that's all about RP that so many script and feel compelled to script as a result of how long it takes to accrue experience. It seems as though it would be a better idea to decrease the time it takes to gain experience and simultaneously decrease the amount of people scripting, and focus more dev time on capped areas and individuals which there are numerous requests for.

I assumed that much of this was a given and I apologize for any confusion

[Candor]

I'm actually curious so I'm going to open up a poll for funsies and see what happens. The forum population isn't a very good representation of the game population but it should be interesting to see the results.

Assuming, of course, people don't load alts to skew the results. /shrug

Sometimes I wonder what percentage of posters on this board still actually play the game...

[SpiffyJr]

Sometimes I wonder what percentage of posters on this board still actually play the game...

Current votes are 11/19/4. I'd guess less than half actually play. Just a guess, though, I have no real numbers.

[MotleyCrew]

Wow, 14 pages over night...more people are going to miss Jeril's schlong than I thought.

[Warriorbird]

Didn't she used to bang GMs irl in exchange for text goodies?

"She" was multiple people. I think you mean somebody else.