What would you do?

[Tsa`ah]

So I went in to work today (yesterday) and found myself in the middle of a bitch fest and some very nasty e-mails.

I guess I am not allowed to take any personal days.

One thing in e-mail that I was supposed to be job #1 Monday was a list of terminations. I get an e-mail like this once or twice a week with a name or two on it. These usually come from HR and are gross violators of attendance policy. Usually I have already terminated the people before I even get an e-mail.

Today's (yesterday's) e-mail was different. I had 23 names on the list. Not just any 23 names, 23 names of hard working people. Names of good employees.

I have always held four policies no matter where I have worked.

1. I don't do dirty work ... do it yourself.
2. I'll excuse anyone with a note from a doctor or hospital so long as it's legit.
3. Don't come in to work sick.
4. Family first.

Granted the names on this list were names of people who have missed a good chunk of work. Each and every one of them were excused because they provided discharge papers, Dr orders, or what have you, for themselves or their immediate family.

We also have a "no call" attendance policy. This simply means a tardy is a tardy and an absence is an absence, regardless of reason. Now I made it perfectly clear when I took the job that I did not agree with half of the policy provided and I would use my judgment over policy or I would not accept the position. I got the job obviously.

Well that's the back ground. I replied to the e-mail (sent by the plant manager) that I would not terminate a single name on the list per agreement made upon my hiring. Nor would I terminate anyone acting as a proxy. If he wanted them gone, he would have to do it himself.

Well around 11pm the PM calls me and tells me I have to fire them or I am fired myself. I just said OK, hung up the phone and left.

Now honestly, who here would have fired these people? And if so ... why?

I haven't been doing this sort of work for more than 5 years, and at this level less than 3. From my first corporate job I always told myself that I wouldn't compromise my ethics for a job. I think I've done that so far, but you have to wonder if others started with that philosophy and let it go for reasons of money and promotion.

Don't know what to say really ... I've been an unemployed bum for the last 7.5 hours ... I think.

[HarmNone]

Ish. I'm with you, Tsa`ah. I would not fire people at the whim of another, if there were no concrete reason for the termination. If it means I'm looking for work.....well, I was looking for a job when I found this one, so to speak. I'd rather be unemployed with my principles intact, than employed and hating myself.

HarmNone

[Nieninque]

Tough call.
I would like to think I would do the same as you (holding firm on principles and not compromising them by way of actions). Easy to say though. Not sure I would have been as strong to follow through with it.
Hope things work out for you :(

[CrystalTears]

Sorry to hear that hon. :hug2:

I don't know what I would do. I hate the fact of being unemployed. Uncertainty is something I really dislike. With that being said, I'm not sure if I would stay in a job where I'm required to do the dirty work of others. I just wouldn't have it in my heart to do it.

I'm all for keeping people working all the time, but shit happens. I hate when they make you suffer when you've been legitimately using your time off for good reasons. Then again, I'm conscious of others, and when I call out sick, I make it harder for the rest of the team because that means more calls for them to get, so I tend not to do it unless I'm basically withering away.

Good luck to you, sweetie. IM me if you need to vent. <smooch>

[HarmNone]

Like Tsa`ah, I'd just as soon people didn't come to work sick. The probability is, if they have something contageous, a goodly percentage of my staff will be exposed if a sick person brings their illness in to "share". Besides, if you're ill, you have a right to stay home until you feel you're well enough to work. I don't know very many people who choose to be sick. It happens. :(

HarmNone hopes Tsa`ah finds that his boss sees the error of his ways

[Adhara]

That's a hard decision. Are you positive you had all the information regarding the reason these people were terminated? Is it possible that they knew something you didn't? Those would be the first questions I would have asked myself in your position. Sometimes someone seems like a great employee to you but you discover later that the doctor providing the notes is the employee's brother-in-law.

I'm going to be the first to jump in and say that I would have fired them. If I thought it was unjustified I would have voiced my concerns to the appropriate person and perhaps tried to negotiate a compromise, probation period or the like. If they still want to fire them, I would go ahead and do it. I mean, obviously it's not up to me if they stay or not and it would come as no surprise that someday I would be called upon to fire people I didn't want to fire. I will go as far as saying I would have resisted the temptation to tell the employee I disagreed with the decision. For as long as I was an employee of this company, I would remain professional and present an allied front to the employee. THEN, after the dirty work was done, I would go to my manager and resign. Personal preferences I guess. I think I would earn more respect by resigning after finishing the task professionally.

Slamming doors voicing righteous ethics is something I have done when I was younger. Experience showed me that my (ex) employers would find this behavior unprofessional and hold a grudge when it came to references. Resigning after a crisis, in a calm manner backed up by reasonably voiced concerns has earned me respect and good references.

[Caiylania]

Tsa'ah, the more I read about your ethics, the more I like you. It's hard doing something like that for others. Many people would have just fired them, using the reasoning that those people are getting fired anyway, why give up a job for them. But by standing up for your principles, you showed that you are above that.

Regardless of what others would have done, you did what you needed to do.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Adhara
Are you positive you had all the information regarding the reason these people were terminated? Is it possible that they knew something you didn't? Those would be the first questions I would have asked myself in your position. Sometimes someone seems like a great employee to you but you discover later that the doctor providing the notes is the employee's brother-in-law.

Granted I have only been working with these people for a relatively short period of time. Industrial types are pretty easy to assess once you've been doing the job for a while. I may act in haste at times, but I never act without knowledge.

Were these people habitually tardy? No.
People that provide "iffy" papers usually have colorful attendance records. These people missed chunks of work. Not a day here, a day there, and never habitually on a Friday or Saturday. You learn to read through the lines after a while.

These chunks were for reasons of a sick elderly mother or father, a sick child, a hospital stay. One 4 day chunk in a 6 month period of time is not indicative of poor attendance. Also when you compare prior attendance of some of these people, perfect, missed one that year, perfect, perfect, missed 3. When a pattern doesn't exist, there is no call to doubt the validity of the excuse.

I can tell you exactly why I received such a large list in e-mail. Its production work. It's non-perishable and the market is season prone. We are entering autumn and fewer people are building and remodeling. The biggest natural disaster season is coming to an end. It is far more cost effective to fire someone than it is to lay them off. Laying someone off means they are drawing upon unemployment insurance. If X people are laid off, Y is the premium spent. If X exceeds A, then Y + B is the cost of the premium.

These people were to be fired for cost effectiveness. EVERY factory that experiences a down swing will go through a firing spree in hopes they don't have to lay off, or lay off in excess of X.

There are 30 salaried sponges that should have been cut because they're worthless before you fire your base.

[Jazuela]

Would have, could have, should have...hindsight and all that.

Tsa'ah, you did what you felt was right for you - and since you're the only one who has to live in your skin all day, nothing else really matters.

Any suggestions that others offer will just have you kicking yourself, and thinking, "Damn - I should've done that..."

But I'm in a "Tsa'ah's kicking himself, bwahahahaha!" kinda mood - so here's my thoughts <grin>

Gather all the people who were listed in that e-mail. Give each of them a printout copy of the note. Tell them how you feel about it - that you think it sucks dead moose-balls and you have no intention of tossing your ethics to the side and putting 23 hard-working people out into the streets.

THEN - ask them what THEY want to do about it. Put the burden on their shoulders. Ask them what they feel you should do. Emphasize that you have no plans to fire anyone, but you really need a game-plan here and you're seeking their advice. Should the whole group storm up to the HR's office and declare mutiny? Should they quit - with a good reference? Should they negotiate to save some of the jobs, and let those who can handle being let go, go?

Let the 23 make the decision on how they want to deal with this, as a unified group. And then stick with the plan once one is formulated and solidified.

That's what I would've done. If you think it make sense, and is sound advice, please e-mail me a jpg of you kicking yourself. It'll give us both a good laugh, and I know you could use one right now :)

If you think it's stoopit [tm] then never mind..

In any case, I think your actions spoke for your integrity, and I applaud you.

[Tsa`ah]

Except that I said OK, hung up and left.

Tsa`ah was fired.

[Jazuela]

Right. But you asked what WE would have done if we were in your shoes. That's what I would've done. Or, at least, it's what I like to think I would've done. It's easy to post a note on a forum when you have time to think about it. Not necessarily so easy when you're the one put on the spot, required to make a snap decision.

I've only been in a position of authority over others a few times. I sent an entire crew home once on a temporary assignment because they were sitting in the back room smoking instead of doing the work they were assigned to do, only an hour after they showed up. We weren't entitled to breaks - only a 45 minute lunch, we had a deadline for the job of only two days, and the inventory was sitting there waiting to be counted. So I fired the whole lot of them and did the entire job by myself. Had a migraine for three days after that, and refused to take another authority position again.

Your situation is entirely different. but I think you acted in YOUR best interests - and I also think this is the best thing you could have done. A potential employer will see that you have integrity and ethics up to the eyeballs and consider you a trustworthy employee. As long as you aren't being hired to be someone's Yes-Man, I think you'll do fine.

Way to not be a pussy. You should have said Ok, hung up the phone and then took a 9 iron to his car for kicks.

I personally would have fired the people. I hate to say it, but in this world, my ability to provide for myself (and my family, if I had one) comes first and above everything else. As long as you had another job that you could get easily, I'd say it was a poor move, if you are looking at it from my perspective. Morals do not put food on the table.

Then again, I really don't know your finacial situation.

- Arkans

[Allycat]

First off, just to reply to the background portion of your post. I would not have taken the job if you felt you would have to battle with management in regards to policies. Even if you made the comment to them that you would not stand by the policies, they can still hold you accountable (as they are doing now). In the end, you are losing your job because you didn't want to stand by said policies. I feel for you, but why put yourself through this? Principle? Of course that matters for you, but do these people know you stuck your neck out for them and ended up losing your job because of this and in return, would they have done the same thing for you?

In no way am I saying that you expected a pat on the back for what you have done. But, if you're without a job, does your principle pay your bills? Or perhaps you're in a situation that having a job isn't necessary. I am not and for that reason a) I would have never put myself in a situation that might allow me to lose my job, based on someone elses policies and b) My family comes first and those are the people that I have to take care of.
That's my two cents...
Ally

[Hulkein]

Good man, Tsa`ah.

[Adhara]

All that matters in the end is how well you sleep at night. If you feel you were true to your values, you did the right thing and that's the end of it. Even if it puts loved ones/family members in a situation where the budget might be tight for a while, they should all be proud and supportive of you. I would be.

[Soulpieced]

I'm sorry, but I couldn't fire 23 yes, twenty three people. That's a gigantic number. Now I'm sure from what you've provided there are hundreds of employees, but that's a lot of freaking people.

As a side note, this is also a reason you should always keep resumes out and have outs. Even throughout my whole "processing", I've been contacted by Booz Allen Hamilton, EMG Securities, and a few other smaller companies. Having outs is good. Plus it's also positive if you go into an interview and say that you quit your prior job due to the fact that the companies' ethics did not match yours.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Arkans
I personally would have fired the people. I hate to say it, but in this world, my ability to provide for myself (and my family, if I had one) comes first and above everything else. ... Morals do not put food on the table.
- Arkans

Luckily, there are food banks. I've yet to find a morality bank.

I think you did the right thing, Tsa'ah.

Jorddyn

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Jazuela
Right. But you asked what WE would have done if we were in your shoes. That's what I would've done.

Yes, I did didn't I. Fair enough.

One thing you have to acknowledge in the industrial market is how expendable you are. The lower you are, the more expendable. Corporate stiffs don't care about a job well done. The quality of workmanship ... none of that. They care about what they can do to make the biggest bang for the money invested.

If we lived in the 40's, then your idea would be magnificent. We live in the next millennium over however, and in this age the money goes south, or over the ocean. I could have let them organize and I could have coached them through it. Sure...

Guess what happens to the other 362 jobs when the "union" wind gets to corporate. The plant closes and employee handbooks are printed in Spanish.

I'm not bashing the idea so don't get me wrong. To me it would have been very irresponsible to the larger group of employees.

Now people can point at professionalism and doing the job. You can say I was combative toward administration and policy, but this is not the case. I beat out a rather large field of applicants for this position and I accepted with stipulations. When I manage, I manage. I don't like being second guessed, I don't let a book or sheet of paper dictate how I run things. They accepted these terms. Corporate accepted these terms. You don't change the rules at half time; you specify them at the start of the game as I did.

Professionalism dictates both parties be professional. Professionalism would dictate you bite the bullet and leave good employees be and not cut the legs out from underneath your manager. Professionalism would dictate you not give an ultimatum. Professionalism and respect go hand and hand. You give to receive in every instance.

I perhaps have the luxury of being a degree holding professional. I certainly was not thinking about how to pay bills or put food on the table. When you live well below your means, money isn't much of an issue. Did I burn bridges? I don't think so, I think the bridge was on fire before I even opened my e-mail, and I was without matches.

Am I worried about finding another job?
Not really. I'll find another just as I found this one, just as I found the job prior. My background isn't blue star phenom material, but it has been enough to get calls months after I turn down an offer.

Am I worried about references?
I've always let my work speak for itself. I'm not ignorant enough to just list a number and business. I list co-workers, extension, and home phones. I have a rolodex full of references. I have references from clients that far outshine anything the person signing my check can say.

What I am worried about are 23 people who may be without jobs this afternoon, if Pat didn't already find a willing ax man.

I did what I could. I've sent e-mails to those that can receive them and I can only hope they spread the word.

[DeV]

I'm not sure what I would have done in that situation. This is an extremely tough call and acting on your own morality you choose to do what you felt was right. In the long run, what you did is commendable and something you can look back on without any moral regret. In the short run, you still have to provide for yourself and your family so I wish you luck in dealing with that situation. You definitely have the type of morals that are short-lived in many, if they have any to begin with.

Eh. I'm gonna have to go with Tsa'ah on this one. I have a staunch no regrets policy. That doesn't mean that I don't regret things and sometimes realize I could have done something better, it just means that if I KNOW I'll regret what I did, then I won't do it.

[TheEschaton]

You did well, Tsa`ah. They're in tough luck for losing you.


Now people can point at professionalism and doing the job. You can say I was combative toward administration and policy, but this is not the case. I beat out a rather large field of applicants for this position and I accepted with stipulations. When I manage, I manage. I don't like being second guessed, I don't let a book or sheet of paper dictate how I run things. They accepted these terms. Corporate accepted these terms. You don't change the rules at half time; you specify them at the start of the game as I did.

Always get the stipulations in writing, and witnessed! Then, if they fire you, you can light a fire under their asses.

I remember once, I was supposed to go on vacation about a month after I started a job (before the probation ended). I told my boss, when I accepted the position, that I had non-refundable tickets to Australia, and hey, I'm gonna go on this vacation. She said no problem. A week comes before vacation, I'm clearing my desk off and making arrangements for my two weeks off, and my boss is like "WTF you doing?" I said, preparing for my two weeks in Australia. She said, pick the job, or the vacation. I wasn't about to blow that wad on the trip, so I told her I was going to Australia, and she fired me. I said, "You had no problems with this when you hired me...." and she said, "Did I? I don't remember having that conversation."

Damn, she was a bitch. I didn't like that lady. But there was nothing I could do about it, because I had no proof.

-TheE-

[xtc]

First off kudos to you for having and displaying ethics, in this world of corporate lackey's and yes men. Secondly I have learned in the corporate world you have to play the game to some extent no matter how unsavoury the game.

I imagine they have/will find someone to fire those 23 people. I am not sure what I would have done in your position to be honest. I am concerned that your firm fires people so indiscriminately. Is this a seasonal thing in your industry? If so they should have been laid off. If you still work there I would look for another job asap. Are you an engineer? If so I am imagine you belong to a professional association with a code of ethics? If so maybe you could fight on those grounds, that you see the firing as being unjust and in conflict with standards you must adhere to as a member to as The Professional Engineers of Oregon/NewYork/etc? Just a shot in the dark….

[Valthissa]

Your company is going to fire 23 people, for cause, on the same day?

Your state employment commission is unlikely to buy that excuse. It certainly sounds like a layoff. If you were working for a company that has no more sense of responsibility to it's employees than to try and fire them to avoid paying the benefits associated with a layoff, then you are better off somewhere else.

For what it's worth, congratulations on standing up for what you believe in.



C/Valth - unfortunately, I'm a layoff expert

[Jenisi]

With Bush still in office the jobs are probally going to China.

[Chadj]

Tsa'ah wins.

Simple mathematics.

1 < 23

Although the 23 were most likely fired anyways, knowing the fact that you personally fired 23 people who work hard would totally blow balls.

[Latrinsorm]

Although smashing stuff probably would have provided more of a rush, the only change I would recommend would be telling your boss where he could stick his ultimatum.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Jenisi
With Bush still in office the jobs are probally going to China.

......

Do you notice your friends just smiling, nodding, and then changing the subject when you talk about things other than clothes, makeup, tattoos, and waitressing?

[Bobmuhthol]

If your job is to fire people, and you're being paid for it, you do it or take the consequence.

Fuck ethics, money is better.

[TheEschaton]

Spoken with the true wisdom gleaned from 14 years of living in the 90s and the early 00's.


Bob, you're a dumbass. The ethics (or lack thereof) you use in Gemstone aren't applicable in real life.

-TheE-

[Ravenstorm]

It is easier to find another job than one's lost self respect. Personally, I think his wife is very lucky to have met him.

Raven

[Caiylania]

:yeahthat:

[Kuyuk]

Right on Tsa'ah. It's good to know that someone else in the world has some decency and thought process.

You may not have done the "right" thing, if there was one, but I think you made the best choice.



K.

[Bobmuhthol]

I apologize for choosing to do the job I'm being paid for over getting fired.

[Jazuela]

I'm glad Tsa'ah took the high road on this. I want to make sure everyone sees that on the first line of this post, so no one can mistake me for thinking otherwise.

Now - Bob has a point. There are work ethics, and personal ethics. Once you're in the work place, you risk being forced to toss your personal ethics aside. It all depends on where you work.

You might be praying to the Almighty for the good health and fortune of your employees, while passing them their pink slips. One doesn't necessarily cancel the other out.

Bob would make the decision to stick with his work ethics at work - and perhaps when he got home, he'd regret having to make that decision in the first place. Or not. But, he has every right to place his responsibility to his employer at the top of the priority list while he's on the clock. He has every right not to feel guilty about it.

Just like Tsa'ah has every right to walk out, rather than take on the task he was assigned.

I don't fault either for their decisions on what they would do/already did. Both are appropriate. What would have been INappropriate, is if Tsa'ah had told his employer he wasn't gonna fire those people, and then refused to leave his job.

Unfortunately in the work world, it's "my way or the highway" when it comes to your boss handing out orders. Bob would do it his boss's way, Tsa'ah picked the second option. Both are appropriate.

[TheEschaton]

Now - Bob has a point. There are work ethics, and personal ethics. Once you're in the work place, you risk being forced to toss your personal ethics aside. It all depends on where you work.

You might be praying to the Almighty for the good health and fortune of your employees, while passing them their pink slips. One doesn't necessarily cancel the other out.


That's moral relativism at best. Your own personal ethics have to be applied to every facet of your life, or, they're not ethics. The very idea behind ethics is consistency.

It's like religion. I know some "religious" people who think religion is relegated to an hour on Sundays (preferrably not during football). Religion is something that affects how you do everything.

You do see how the argument is duplicitous, right? Ethics are closely tied into morals. If you have a personal moral code, and violate it "for work's sake", or for anything's sake, you're being immoral, by your own immoral code. I can't say "Stealing is unethical" and then go to work and say "IF I stole materials, I'd up my profit margin" and have that be a-okay.

Please, moral relativism is dead. Go bury outside. It's stinking the place up.

Both are NOT appropriate, if the one violates your own personal ethics, and one doesn't. I mean, seriously, can you read your own sentence and not wince from the hypocrisy of it?

-TheE-

[Adhara]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
[quote]That's moral relativism at best. Your own personal ethics have to be applied to every facet of your life, or, they're not ethics. The very idea behind ethics is consistency.

Actually what she describes fits my reaction as described in my earlier post. To recap I would have fired the people and then resigned. By doing that I was 1) doing my job because I understood and respected that this is something I was hired to do whether I liked it or not but 2) respected my own ethics and resigned afterwards because I was disgusted with the practice of firing someone for the wrong reasons.

To me that doesn't make me a hypocrit but in fact someone able to find a compromise between personal and work ethics.

[CrystalTears]

I don't think what you described is what Jazuela was talking about. She was saying that someone would not like what they were doing, but would do it anyway and that it would be "ethical". There's quite a difference between that and someone who does their job and then leaves it for having to do something beneath their personal beliefs and morals.

[Edited on 9/30/2004 by CrystalTears]

[TheEschaton]

Compromising ethics? Doing something that goes against your ethics and still having it be "ethical"? This is not a question of having to do something you "don't like", Adhara, this is a question of doing something which is wrong, to the person who's been asked to do it.


Sounds pretty much like the downward spiral of moral relativism to me. If the soldiers in the Nazi armies got a call to fire up the ovens....and then they did, and killed lots of Jews, and then resigned in protest because it violated their ethics, would that make up for the wrong act of killing those Jews? I don't think so. If it violates their ethics to do it, they shouldn't of done it. I know it's an inflammatory example, but the truth behind it is the same. That is:

You should never compromise your personal ethics for the sake of your job. Ever.

-TheE-

[Edited on 9-30-2004 by TheEschaton]

[DeV]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
You should never compromise your personal ethics for the sake of your job. Ever.

-TheE-

[Edited on 9-30-2004 by TheEschaton] Agreed. In this day in age, moral standards are not absolute but emerge from social constraints that are always changing. People tend to create their own ideas on what's moral and what's immoral and more often than not those morals will be based on what will benefit themselves and their beliefs at the present. Thankfully, people like Tsa'ah set their standards high and choose not to compromise.
Saying that if one is paid to do a job, one which compromises their ethics, then they should do that job regardless and not worry about the immorality of it is bordering on moral nihilism. Not good unless you just don't give a damn to begin with.

[Tsa`ah]

Let's slow down here before this becomes ugly.

The position I was hired to fill was that of production manager. My job was to see that the production department (84.27% of the plant) ran to expected efficiency. My job was to ensure quotas were met and orders were filled in a timely manner. I wasn't an "assurance" manager, or a "reliability" manager, I was The production manager.

My job was not to hire people or to fire people. I had absolute authority to terminate the employment of anyone under my management. If a person hindered production to any degree in my judgment, I terminated employment.

My position was not "axe" man. I did not take orders from HR or the PM as to who I had to fire. HR would send me e-mails notifying me of attendance violations that were in excess of policy and "request" that I either terminate or defer to HR. As I mentioned, the people I got e-mails about were usually fired prior to the e-mail. The PM, while technically my boss, had no option but to STFU unless my overall fell below 95%. He had authority to terminate me if my overall fell below 87%. Since my overall had not been below 107% since the second week of my employment ... had no choice but to STFU. He chose to dictate how I was to do my job; he chose to step on my toes while cutting my feet out from under me.

Don't make too many assumptions here. I knew very well what I was required to do and what I wasn't. A group termination this large would have hindered my production, thus cutting into my overall. Had this been a group termination of people I had been wanting to get rid of but couldn't ... I would have done it without blinking. This was not the case.

So two things.

1. Don't assume you know what my job was.
2. Don't assume I did not do my job in any way.

Perhaps I should have specified both as back ground before my initial question.

[Adhara]

Originally posted by TheEschatonIf the soldiers in the Nazi armies got a call to fire up the ovens....and then they did, and killed lots of Jews, and then resigned in protest because it violated their ethics, would that make up for the wrong act of killing those Jews? I don't think so.[Edited on 9-30-2004 by TheEschaton]

What I'm describing is that you would be told ahead of time that your job would involve burning Jews, you would agree to do it to get the job but later when you're told to do it you revolt in horror screaming "that's against my ethics!"

Of course this doesn't seem to be the case since Tsa'ah says it was never part of his job to fire people.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
I know some "religious" people who think religion is relegated to an hour on Sundays (preferrably not during football). Unless it's a close game, naturally.

p.s: Way to bring up the Nazis.