NBA 2014 Finals

[Latrinsorm]

Spurs Heat 2: the Rerevenge

There have been 12 Finals rematches in NBA history, but most occurred in the early years when there were dramatically fewer teams and shorter playoffs. Since the NBA expanded to 16 team playoff brackets in 1984, there have been only three: 97-98 (Bulls over Jazz twice), 88-89 (Lakers and Pistons split), 84-85 (Celtics and Lakers split).

.

Heat rotation
point Chalmers, Cole
wing Wade, LeBron, Allen, Lewis, Battier/Jones
big Bosh, Andersen, Haslem

Spurs rotation
point Parker, Mills
wing Leonard, Ginobili, Green, Belinelli, Bonner
big Duncan, Splitter, Diaw

The point is pretty close. Parker seems like a great player but then he sits out a half and the Spurs are +10 against the Thunder. His defense is terrible. In the regular season they were +7/100 with him +9/100 without him. It could be that the Spurs just have that great a system, it could be noise, or he could be severely overrated. Plus, Kawhi's offensive ability has not improved over last year so LeBron can slide onto Parker again, and we saw how that worked out for him last year - 15 points on 41% shooting isn't getting it done. Chalmers has been bad so far these playoffs but so was Battier last year and he turned it around for the Finals.

The wings belong to Miami. I can't wait for Allen and Ginobili to go at each other again, I like it when teams have the guys who can't guard anybody guard each other. As stated above Leonard has not improved, and Wade is in dramatically better condition than he was last year. Recall that he needed 8 hours (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/6/23/4456790/dwyane-wade-injury-knee-heat-nba-finals-2013) of treatment on his left knee to play before game 7, and his right knee was bruised so badly he was ready to sit out game 7 of the ECF. This year he's good to go.

The bigs belong to Miami too. Haslem and Splitter probably won't even play. Andersen and Diaw couldn't be more different and in general I'd give the edge to Diaw, but for this series it's crucial to be able to guard dribble penetration with only two players. Helping off 3 point shooters on either side is deadly, and Diaw can't protect the rim the way Andersen can. Duncan has a top-10 all time career, but he's not spry enough to chase Bosh to 3 point range. Bosh went 0 for 6 last year for the entire Finals, he went 2 for 4 in two games played against the Spurs this year.

.

In terms of four factors from the regular season:
offense
shooting - both excellent
turnovers - SA advantage
rebounding - both terrible
fouls - MIA advantage

defense
shooting - SA advantage
turnovers - MIA advantage
rebounding - SA advantage
fouls - SA advantage

However, so far in the regular season Miami has completely locked down on their own turnovers, improved their defensive rebounding, and dramatically improved their fouling on the defensive end, neutralizing almost all of San Antonio's advantages. They've created another by going from terrible offensive rebounding to historically terrible offensive rebounding, but that still leaves the teams at two a piece. San Antonio still controls the most important one, though.

.

Viewed from the farthest perspective, the only changes to these teams are Lewis for Miller, Belinelli for Neal, and healthy Wade for crippled Wade. I see that as a net gain for the Heat, Heat in 6.

[Latrinsorm]

The Heat finished 23 free throw attempts behind the Pacers in the ECF this year. In the Big 3 era, they are now -13 in ECFs and Finals.

[Latrinsorm]

Fascinating article (http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2014/story/_/page/mindoffan/how-fans-see-lebron-james) about various NBA players' public image. Upshot:
-LeBron is still not as popular as he was pre-Decision.
-Specifically, among white people and casual fans.
-He had recovered his popularity among black (and Hispanic) people before his second ring.
-Allen Iverson was never in the top 2 for white people.
-He was briefly (01-03) the most popular player for black people, which is fascinating considering the Laker threepeat was going on.
-The Heat are over three times more popular with black people than white people.
-No one has come close to Jordan's popularity.
-Even the top 4 put together barely come close, making an interesting suggestion of monoculture.

[DoctorUnne]

So SA turned the ball over about 650 times and still won going away. I feel bad for LeBron because clearly his body wasn't responding so it's not really a question of toughness, but considering he's supposed to be some cyborg it's pretty surprising that he was the only guy who couldn't handle the lack of A/C. And frankly when you compare the situation last night to every football player in the south doing two-a-day practices in pads outside, or soccer players running around for 90 straight minutes in northern Africa, it's really surprising this caused such an issue.

[Parkbandit]

I'd love to see the Spurs win this. If I were them, I would have AC problems every game.

Lebron looked soft.

#lebroning

[RichardCranium]

Posted on 4/18/2014:


Spurs over Heat in six.

[Latrinsorm]

So SA turned the ball over about 650 times and still won going away. I feel bad for LeBron because clearly his body wasn't responding so it's not really a question of toughness, but considering he's supposed to be some cyborg it's pretty surprising that he was the only guy who couldn't handle the lack of A/C. And frankly when you compare the situation last night to every football player in the south doing two-a-day practices in pads outside, or soccer players running around for 90 straight minutes in northern Africa, it's really surprising this caused such an issue.It makes more sense when you remember that LeBron weighed the most of any player on the court, or second most depending on how much you think Boris Diaw is also fudging his list weight. Soccer players are tiny by comparison, especially if you restrict the sample to those who run around as much as basketball players do rather than central defenders. Football players sometimes die in those workouts, so.

LeBron did appear to be the only one who physically couldn't go, but both teams played horrendously. There hasn't been a 22-16 turnover Finals game since 1998, and unlike 1998 it wasn't a question of one team just obliterating the other on defense - San Antonio shot 59% from the field. It was a farce and a black eye on the league, and if I was the commissioner I would strongly consider going to a 1-2-2-1-1 format to (1) make sure San Antonio gets their shit together and (2) shame them as publicly as possible for being such a cow town. I don't care that each team was equally disadvantaged, how about not disadvantaging either team? How about we see the best possible basketball when on the biggest possible stage? Amateur hour.

All that said, I wouldn't be at all concerned if I was the Heat, unless they show up on Sunday and the arena has a dirt floor or there's an oil spill in the visitor's locker room or something. The Heat were up 6 at 9:30 in the 4th, before LeBron started cramping up. Both teams' turnovers are probably going to come down, but so is San Antonio's three point shooting (52%) and FTA advantage (+11). Even ignoring the LeBron factor, if those two factors normalized even to 40% and +0 the Heat would have won by 2.

[Atlanteax]

It makes more sense when you remember that LeBron weighed the most of any player on the court, or second most depending on how much you think Boris Diaw is also fudging his list weight. Soccer players are tiny by comparison, especially if you restrict the sample to those who run around as much as basketball players do rather than central defenders. Football players sometimes die in those workouts, so.

Yep, LeBron is a fat arse.

What I thought was interesting was how after LeBron exited the game, the Spurs slowed down the game pace in the 4Q to be the slowest ever this year ... as they then had the luxury of doing so. Extra passes for great shots = breaking open for the win.

[Sorcasaurus]

...LeBron did appear to be the only one who physically couldn't go....

This also isn't the first time he's cramped up in a playoff game. How have the training staff and Lebron himself not made hydration a priority/routine? Some people sweat more/less than others. Some lose more electrolytes than others when they sweat. Know your body and prepare accordingly. Maybe his cardio work suffers?

I'm not sure I buy your reasons for soccer players and football players. I am more apt to believe the conditions are more routine for them, and everyone involved knows how to approach it properly. Look at the lengths northern NFL teams take when going to the hot and humid southern stadiums. The A/C problems were unexpected, but shouldn't be beyond the realm of a professional teams ability to adapt.

You can't rule out shit luck either. I can't find any actual numbers for his frequency of cramps. Would be interesting to see regular season % and playoff % compared to other players, possibly restricted to players with more than X minutes.

I don't think very highly of him and admittedly that skews my opinions when things like this comes up. Once cramps started could he play? No. I'm just skeptical he and his staff prepared his body as well as they could.

[Latrinsorm]

I think that a training staff that could handle Wade's knees last year should get the benefit of the doubt. I also can't find hard numbers for cramps, so we'll probably never know.

[Sorcasaurus]

Great rehabilitation and access to a superb doctor doesn't make you great at nutrition/hydration prep.

It is a good indicator for their staff though. Point noted and I may be giving them less credit than they deserve.

[DoctorUnne]

Too bad he didn't have Lance there to blow on him and cool him off

[Latrinsorm]

I read some article about the Heat and opting out blah blah blah, and I wondered which NBA players have the highest total career salaries. It turns out to be pretty obvious:

1. Garnett $315.4m (+$12 remaining on contract makes $327.4)
2. Shaq $292.m
3. Kobe $279.7m (+$48.5 makes $328.2)
4. Duncan $225m (+$10 makes $235)
5. Dirk $204m

Pretty shocking that only 2 players will be in the 300 club, only 3 in the 200 club, and the next closest is Jason Kidd at only $188m - huge disparity. (Pierce is inches behind him but like Dirk is not under contract yet for next year.) It's also interesting to note that Duncan has generated 192 Win Shares so far to Kobe's 173, an efficiency increase of 38% even before his monster extension the next two years. To maintain his WS/$ average Kobe needs to generate about 30 over the next two years, good luck with that.

The big 3 currently go LeBron-Bosh-Wade at $129m, $123m, $121m respectively. If LeBron and Bosh chase the money it's pretty much a given they'd get a $100m deal to break 200, much harder for Wade to get there not only from doubt but because he can only get a 4 year deal because of a CBA proviso. (Carmelo is in a similar state with $136m to date and an opt-out.) If they instead opt out for a 4 year $60m deal it gets a lot harder, and there's basically no way any of them get to $300m unless LeBron intentionally butchers his team in the twilight of his career.

[Atlanteax]

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2014/06/06/orig-mg-npr-lebroning-new-and-old.cnn.html?c=us
The 'new' LeBron-ing ... Heh

[Parkbandit]

I loved Gatorade's tweet about Lebron cramping up:

6637

[Atlanteax]

I loved that. But they had to cave to pressure and deleted it.

[Warriorbird]

R-E-S-P-E-C-T for Lebron for Latrin's sake.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140608/SPORTS0102/306080025/LeBron-James-has-earned-more-respect-than-he-s-given

[Latrinsorm]

I really think it comes down to personality. Jordan and Kobe are alpha alpha alpha males, Magic is easily the most likable NBA player ever, Bird is white. LeBron's biggest crime is being a normal guy, personality-wise. Future generations are going to look back at the objective record and be absolutely puzzled at the criticism of him, the same way it is inconceivable to us that Kareem would ever miss an All-Star game... but he did in 1978. "Well, he missed 20 games before the break, and the Lakers were many games behind Bill Walton's #1 seed Blazers, why should he get the nod from the fans?" Kobe in the same city played 2 minutes on a lottery team and got in the All Star game ahead of Lillard. QED, baby, QED.

[Latrinsorm]

Now that was a G-darn basketball game. It makes me even more mad that San Antonio's backwoods hillbilly arena cost us such a game in game 1.

Even though it was a win, I'd be a little worried if I was Miami.
-James had a MONSTER game
-Wade was reasonably efficient if not super productive
-Chris Bosh's Jurassic Park crossover
-Kawhi played very poorly
...and they only won by 2. Throw in that Battier is apparently done and James Jones can't play in this series with nowhere to hide on defense, and it's not a great sign. At the same time, they're going home and the Spurs did have an excellent 3P and TOV night. I'm less confident now than I was after game 1, but it's a best-of-5 where the Heat have home court advantage. Heat should win that in 4, so Heat in 6 lives! :)

[SHAFT]

It doesn't matter. Lbj > all

[Latrinsorm]

The Bosh crossover play is just so interesting all the way around.

1. LeBron brings it up against Danny Green(!), then passes. No hero ball.

2. Bosh guarded by Duncan beyond the arc stands around for a sec, prompting LeBron to call timeout. It isn't called.

3. Bosh crosses Duncan over at about 1/4 speed but Duncan is going at 1/5th so see ya. Maybe Noah is the only other center who can make this play.

4. Wade is being guarded by Diaw(!!!) in the corner because he can't shoot for beans, but Diaw leaves to help on the blow-by.

5. Wade cuts into the exact right spot for Bosh to make a dead simple pass to him.

6. Layup. Game over.

[Atlanteax]

SA kicking themselves for the 4 missed FTs in a row.

[SHAFT]

SA kicking themselves for the 4 missed FTs in a row.

I was expecting an AC malfunction around that time.

[Latrinsorm]

Fascinating article about Chris Bosh (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11046586/reinvention-chris-bosh). Some takeaways:

-recently learned Spanish on a whim.
-gets into microbrews in a big way.
-loves to read, but takes the covers off his books because he doesn't want people to know what he's reading.
-proficient in HTML, Photoshop, and AutoCAD, almost certainly the only person who can put that and a 20-10 NBA season on their resume.
-thinks 20-10 NBA seasons are for losers. (And is probably right: the last 20-10 champion was 2003 Tim Duncan, since then 20-10 guys are 0 for 33.)

Bosh made 15 threes last playoffs (including 0 last Finals), 7th best on the team. Leads the Heat in threes this playoffs. The total (and ongoing!) overhaul of his and LeBron's offensive game doesn't get nearly enough attention.

[Atlanteax]

Totally agreed on the under appreciation of Bosh.

[Atlanteax]

Spurs up by 11 at start of 4th. Was up by 25 in 2Q. If they do not close out with a win, series is Miami's to lose.

[DoctorUnne]

KAWHI!!!

I was worried after his first two games but that was amazing. I missed the game on a flight, but it looks like he at least played LeBron to a draw. Did you see how happy Pop was for him at the end? Even if the Spurs lose now i'm happy he had that game. He deserves it more than any other player. When was the last time you saw him complain to the refs about a call or flop or do anything to draw attention to himself or detract from the team in any way? Talk about the ultimate team player. Pissed i missed the game

[Atlanteax]

Speaking of flops, Wade flopped and got the call for the 2nd game in a row. He was fined for the game 2 incident. We'll see if he is for this one.

[Keller]

So now that SA is up two games to none (in Latrin's world), are you worried?

[Latrinsorm]

So now that SA is up two games to none (in Latrin's world), are you worried?I was worried before game 3, clearly I'm more worried now.
When was the last time you saw him complain to the refs about a call or flop or do anything to draw attention to himself or detract from the team in any way?Well... last night. He got to feeling his oats a little, and his isolations didn't go as well. It was a great game for him for sure, but I think playing next to Tim Duncan exaggerates what a good personality he has.

Overall, I thought the game was officiated very sloppily last night on both sides: touch fouls one possession, uncalled bludgeonings the next. I still believe the Heat will win the series because:
-Chalmers has been awful
-Andersen has been poor by his standards, perhaps due to playing through injury
-the Spurs by definition aren't going to get the game of Kawhi's life every night
-or the best shooting half in Finals history every night (c.f. 2009 Magic)
-sooner or later the Heat are going to get one of those +20 FTA nights
-the Spurs have made all their adjustments, Diaw is the new Manu
-the Heat will have a better game plan than "hey LeBron, iso against Kawhi"

There was some bad defense by the Heat, but you could play against the Bucks and not put up a 75% shooting half (the Spurs were in fact 0 for 4 in that department this year, never even cracked 60%). Sometimes the shots just go in. Remember that the Spurs got career games from Green and Neal in game 3 last year (51 points on 32 shots), the two never combined for more than 26 points after that and combined for 18 points total in games 6 and 7. You could certainly argue that Kawhi got those games out of the way in 1 and 2, but I'm pretty sure there are more 9 point games and less 29 point games to come.

[Keller]

Kudos to the Miami Heat for taking the day off and visiting a Miami orphanage today.

"It's heartbreaking to see their sad faces with so little hope," said Jose Quesada, age 6.

[Latrinsorm]

And now for something completely different: let's figure out Alex Abrines's' stats (http://www.acb.com/stspartidojug.php?cod_jugador=SHD&cod_competicion=LACB&cod_edicion=58)! (He's the last guy from the James Harden trade.) I'm pretty sure it goes...

minutes
points
2P%
3P%
FT%
rebounds (total, defense, offense)
assists
steals (balon recuperacion)
turnovers (balon perdida)
? I haven't seen anyone get above two, but the word for techs over there is "falta téchnica" so that probably isn't it
tapones means "stopper", so blocks? own blocked and blocked other?
dunks
personal fouls (committed and drawn)
plus minus
some kind of game score - the best ACB guy this year is at 18, Alex is at 7.2. My guess is it's not adjusted for minutes but just plugs in the box score numbers.

That gives us:
14.2 points, 3.1 rebounds, 1.8 assists to 0.9 turnovers, 1.2 steals, 3.6 fouls per 36 minutes. Shoots a decent percentage from 3 and FT, not very good from 2.

[Keller]

It would be Alex Abrines's stats. Unless Alex is a siamese twin, and even then using the plural possessive would be questionable.

[Latrinsorm]

Fixed it for you bby.

[Keller]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/08/08/article-2185554-14656D19000005DC-909_306x423.jpg

[Atlanteax]

Congrats to the 2014 NBA Champions, San Antonio Spurs.

[Keller]

Spurs lead three games to none. Will the Heat get swept?

[Keller]

Outcoached by Popovich and your booty starts to itch, diarrhea. Diarrhea.

[Keller]

When you're compared to Jordan and your booty-hole's a'roarin, diarrhea. Diarrhea.

[Atlanteax]

As for the talk about Melo going to the Heat with 'big 3' restructuring their contracts...

http://images.scribblelive.com/2014/6/13/822ddaea-2db5-4ecf-80a1-7eca6b4cdc4c.jpg

[Keller]

When Boris Diaw playin' vicious and your farts come out viscous, diarrhea. Diarrhea.

[Keller]

When you bring in Udonis Haslem and your sphincter starts to spasm, diarrhea. Diarrhea.

[Keller]

When you're drivin' to the hoop and that fart turns to poop, diarrhea. Diarrhea.

[Keller]

I'm all tapped out for now.

But seriously - Jordan would have scored 50 wearing a diaper.

[Keller]

Ok, ok. One more.

When Kawhi Leonard in the lane and you feel a stomach pain, diarrhea. Diarrhea.

[Atlanteax]

http://espngrantland.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/wade-sad-2.gif?w=694

Is it over? Dwayne Wade thinks so.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bp_IqKACIAAOiXo.png

How do you miss so many so close to the basket?

It is official... he is gimp.

[Latrinsorm]

Your grasp of meter is as tenuous as your grasp of basketball, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised by either considering the state you hail from. HAAAAAAAAY

No, but seriously. The Spurs put up 67% eFG on jumpers last night. Their season average is 48%. For all the talk about Miami's defensive letdowns (which is true) and the Spurs' players being pure of heart (which is ridiculous sports radio morality play BS), sometimes the shots just go in. It's very similar to what we saw in the 2011 Finals: a great coach (Carlisle or Pop) makes an offense for defense swap in the starting lineup (Barea/Stevenson or Diaw/Splitter), the Heat are just choke artist dogs who should split up the team, and that's why the other team won.

It's a good story, but the problem is that the exact same thing happened in 2013 when Pop started Manu over Splitter, and they went 1 and 2 after he did so. Sometimes the shots just don't go in.

The Heat are in big trouble because they're down 3-1 by games and worse by points. But they didn't forget how to play any more than the Spurs did last year. No matter what happens on Sunday, they can bring back the same core and expect to contend for a championship.

As for the Spurs, remember that in 2012 they had won 20 straight games and had the Thunder down 2-0, a situation the leading team wins 95% of the time. Their odds are better now at 99%, but it wouldn't be the first (or second) time the Spurs have failed to capitalize on a historically overwhelming advantage.

[Latrinsorm]

And one more thing about the completely absurd "pure of heart" business. If the Spurs had missed those jump shots, the narrative would be "live by the jump shot, die by the jump shot" and "Spoelstra's a genius for getting Parker to settle for jumpers". I am really surprised and disheartened by how bad the announcing has been, and I have to assume the blame rests on Mark Jackson. Even Mike Breen has inexplicably accused the Heat fans (who were unfailingly loyal throughout game 3) of booing the Heat during game 4. Madness.

[Keller]

Leonard's 22 year old hands are touching Lebron's anal glands, diarrhea. Diarrhea.

[Atlanteax]

Leonard's 22 year old hands are touching Lebron's anal glands, diarrhea. Diarrhea.

(for those wondering)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bp-owilCMAAogWT.jpg

[Keller]

Latrin has a perfect meter as he swings from Lebron's peter, diarrhea. Diarrhea.

[DoctorUnne]

sometimes the shots just go in. Sometimes the shots just don't go in.

Exactly. Just like last year when the Heat won a title just because Ray Allen's three pointer went in and Kawhi's free throw didn't.

I don't think it's over yet, but who wins MVP for the Spurs as of right now? Parker? Dare I say... KAWHI?!

[Keller]

get it? it's a metronome joke.

[Atlanteax]

Even Mike Breen has inexplicably accused the Heat fans (who were unfailingly loyal throughout game 3) of booing the Heat during game 4. Madness.

^ = Homer

[Keller]

Exactly. Just like last year when the Heat won a title just because Ray Allen's three pointer went in and Kawhi's free throw didn't.

I don't think it's over yet, but who wins MVP for the Spurs as of right now? Parker? Dare I say... KAWHI?!

I didn't actually read Latrin's post. That sentence you pulled out is hilarious considering the Heat are down tres a cero to the Spurs in this series by his own standards.

[Keller]

When your fans begin to boo and you've really got to poo, diarrhea. Diarrhea.

[Keller]

Kawhi's a defensive stopper and Lebron needs to wear a diaper, diarrhea. Diarrhea.

[Atlanteax]

Exactly. Just like last year when the Heat won a title just because Ray Allen's three pointer went in and Kawhi's free throw didn't.

I don't think it's over yet, but who wins MVP for the Spurs as of right now? Parker? Dare I say... KAWHI?!

Indications are Diaw (with Kawhi a close 2nd).

[Androidpk]

Exactly. Just like last year when the Heat won a title just because Ray Allen's three pointer went in and Kawhi's free throw didn't.

I don't think it's over yet, but who wins MVP for the Spurs as of right now? Parker? Dare I say... KAWHI?!

As a New Englander I feel conflicted about Allen. I love him but hate the heat. Would it be weird if I got his jersey?

[Keller]

As a New Englander I feel conflicted about Allen. I love him but hate the heat. Would it be weird if I got his jersey?

As long as it is his Bucks jersey.

[DoctorUnne]

Diaw would be a worthy choice

[Latrinsorm]

Latrin has a perfect meter as he swings from Lebron's peter, diarrhea. Diarrhea.;)
Exactly. Just like last year when the Heat won a title just because Ray Allen's three pointer went in and Kawhi's free throw didn't.Yep. The difference is last year nobody lauded the Heat's team-first style and purity of spirit and they just know what it takes to win.
I don't think it's over yet, but who wins MVP for the Spurs as of right now? Parker? Dare I say... KAWHI?!If the Spurs win and the stats extrapolate from here it should be Kawhi but it will almost certainly be Parker. He leads the team in scoring and will almost certainly lead in assists. He's been atrocious rebounding and defensively, but nobody cares about that. (Also keep in mind that LeBron is shooting 60% from the field, so Kawhi doesn't get points for being an elite James stopper.)
^ = HomerThere's no arguing that the Heat fans were booing. I just think that their booing specifically when Kawhi Leonard made highlight plays and not at all otherwise indicates pretty clearly whom their target was. For all the justified criticism of the Heat fans, turning on the Heat has never been one. Indifference yes, vitriol no.
Indications are Diaw (with Kawhi a close 2nd).No chance (again, if the stats extrapolate from here). He's 8th on the Spurs in scoring and is shooting 39% from the field. The voters just don't vote that way.

By Win Shares, it currently goes...
Kawhi .75
Green .49
Duncan .45
Parker .44
Manu .41
Mills .36
Splitter .27
Diaw .25
These are using some other year's league stats so 2-5 could shuffle order, but it's Kawhi by a mile.

The Heat go...
LeBron .84
Bosh .55
Allen .42
Lewis .33
Wade .19(!)
Andersen .08(!)
Cole -.07
Chalmers -.14(!!!)

[Keller]

When the thread needs a bump and you've gotta take a dump, diarrhea. Diarrhea.

[SHAFT]

When the thread needs a bump and you've gotta take a dump, diarrhea. Diarrhea.

Would you rather be a Pacers fan, with zero rings, or a Lebron fan with 2 rings and 5 trips to the finals?

[Androidpk]

Would you rather be a Pacers fan, with zero rings, or a Lebron fan with 2 rings and 5 trips to the finals?

A Celtics fan biding his time until they return to the top.

[Keller]

Would you rather be a Pacers fan, with zero rings, or a Lebron fan with 2 rings and 5 trips to the finals?

It would be a better troll to remove the TP roll, diarrhea. Diarrhea.

[Androidpk]

Oh man, Keller is going to be leaking all over the floor if San Antonio wins tonight.*

*Enjoy your rep.

[Keller]

Lebron's not thinking of Lance cause he's shit his underpants, diarrhea. Diarrhea.

[Keller]

Oh man, Keller is going to be leaking all over the floor if San Antonio wins tonight.*

*Enjoy your rep.

I don't really care if Miami wins.

Victory will be mine when Lebron opts out. THAT will be special to watch AA Arena looking like a Canes football game and to read Latrin explain how Lebron and Melo are going to compliment each other in NY.

[Androidpk]

The Decision 2

[Latrinsorm]

I don't really care if Miami wins.

Victory will be mine when Lebron opts out. THAT will be special to watch AA Arena looking like a Canes football game and to read Latrin explain how Lebron and Melo are going to compliment each other in NY.Only a miracle can get LeBron to NY, and you try riding a horse through Manhattan.

[Atlanteax]

After 1st quarter... Maybe Miami will win, especially after the start. End of 3rd quarter? Game 3&4 all over again.

[Warriorbird]

If he make The Decision 2 I actually will laugh.

[gs4-PauperSid]

Go Spurs Go!

[Drew]

Spurs played amazing, congrats to them.

[Latrinsorm]

Congrats to the Spurs. More thoughts tomorrow.

[Androidpk]

At least 50% of the people who voted for the Spurs in this poll are from the Boston area. Feel our wrath!

[Dwaar]

Spurs were amazing to watch this series. Congrats to them.

[SHAFT]

The finals were boring as shit. Just like the spurs. That's what Miami gets for making Greg oden their top free agent acquisition.

[Atlanteax]

Does Duncan (and Pop) retire now, on top ... or go for it another year?

[Latrinsorm]

Kawhi Leonard is the 29th man to win FMVP out of 46 awarded, only the 4th to do so without having been an All-Star yet. Others to do so: Billups (went on to have 5), Dumars (6), Maxwell (0). I don't know if voting records are available that far back but he wasn't even in the top 15 this year, receiving less than 127,000 votes.

[Warriorbird]

Kawhi Leonard is the 29th man to win FMVP out of 46 awarded, only the 4th to do so without having been an All-Star yet. Others to do so: Billups (went on to have 5), Dumars (6), Maxwell (0). I don't know if voting records are available that far back but he wasn't even in the top 15 this year, receiving less than 127,000 votes.

So. Sabremetrics for basketball?

[SHAFT]

I hope Duncan retires. That'd be great if Parker, Manu, Duncan, and popovich all retired.

[Ardwen]

Interesting that none of us had Spurs in 5, can't wait to see the Heat disintegrate.

[Sorcasaurus]

I really think it comes down to personality. Jordan and Kobe are alpha alpha alpha males, Magic is easily the most likable NBA player ever, Bird is white. LeBron's biggest crime is being a normal guy, personality-wise. Future generations are going to look back at the objective record and be absolutely puzzled at the criticism of him, the same way it is inconceivable to us that Kareem would ever miss an All-Star game... but he did in 1978. "Well, he missed 20 games before the break, and the Lakers were many games behind Bill Walton's #1 seed Blazers, why should he get the nod from the fans?" Kobe in the same city played 2 minutes on a lottery team and got in the All Star game ahead of Lillard. QED, baby, QED.


I missed this the first time through, but Lebron is hardly a "normal guy" in any capacity. It'd be a miracle if he was, being thrust into the spotlight and handed so much fame and $$ at such a young age. Even his treatment leading up to/through high school wasn't anywhere near "normal".

I can't speak for the greater populace, but I don't like the attitude I see from him during games and other basketball related press. I know little to nothing about his personal life, and I don't really care to. Everyone deserves and needs a home/private life.

I'm curious, what is your take on his sitting so much of the 4th quarter? The press is making a big deal of it for sure, and it follows the pattern I believe to be indicative of him being a dope. Am I missing something?

[Atlanteax]

I'm curious, what is your take on his sitting so much of the 4th quarter? The press is making a big deal of it for sure, and it follows the pattern I believe to be indicative of him being a dope. Am I missing something?

The game was over? No need to risk injury? Play the other Heat players and see what they can do against the Spurs?

LBJ just does not have the forceful personality of MJ/Kobe.

[Sorcasaurus]

The game was over? No need to risk injury? Play the other Heat players and see what they can do against the Spurs?

LBJ just does not have the forceful personality of MJ/Kobe.

Risk injury? Seems like a cop out when it's potentially your last game of the season. The heat had already shown they could mount a 17 point lead/run in the 1st quarter.

The context also isn't do I think they could win, it's do I think they tried as hard as they could. The answer to the latter is no, sitting the last 7 or 8 minutes of the game makes me think you gave up. I brought it up in the vein of why I (and possibly others) don't like LeBron. Right or wrong, part of an athletes likability is how they face challenges, and being behind in the 4th quarter counts.

[Atlanteax]

Interesting that none of us had Spurs in 5, can't wait to see the Heat disintegrate.

http://giant.gfycat.com/AgedRemorsefulKilldeer.gif

[Androidpk]

It's too bad Lebron didn't have jersey #4. Then that gif would have been perfect. Error 404, championship not found.

[Latrinsorm]

So. Sabremetrics for basketball?SABRmetrically the Spurs were favored to win this series, and then they did. I don't know how well it works in baseball, but a gap left in basketball SABR is how (all of the) top teams turn it on for the playoffs. I thought the Heat would net turn it on enough to close the gap with the Spurs, instead (with a healthy helping of random noise) the Spurs did.
Interesting that none of us had Spurs in 5, can't wait to see the Heat disintegrate.I've levied a lot of justified criticism on Mark Jackson, but one thing he said that was quite good was that the Heat aren't really competing with their contemporaries any more, they're chasing ghosts. LeBron knows NBA history, he knows the historical cache of reaching 5 straight Finals. Nobody in the East is a legitimate threat to the Heat as currently constituted, why would he want to go elsewhere? If he stays, why would anyone else on the team want to go elsewhere? There's no better team situation in the East, there might be in the West but the West is a meat grinder. Look at it this way: if the Heat have a 90% chance of reaching the Finals and a 50% chance of winning, their ring odds are clearly better than if he goes to the Clippers who have a 30% chance of reaching the Finals and a 90% chance of winning.
I missed this the first time through, but Lebron is hardly a "normal guy" in any capacity. It'd be a miracle if he was, being thrust into the spotlight and handed so much fame and $$ at such a young age. Even his treatment leading up to/through high school wasn't anywhere near "normal".And yet he is. I can't explain the why of it, as you say it is quite implausible. Then again, a human being being 6'9" 270 lbs and flying through the air is quite implausible too.
I'm curious, what is your take on his sitting so much of the 4th quarter? The press is making a big deal of it for sure, and it follows the pattern I believe to be indicative of him being a dope. Am I missing something?
Risk injury? Seems like a cop out when it's potentially your last game of the season. The heat had already shown they could mount a 17 point lead/run in the 1st quarter.

The context also isn't do I think they could win, it's do I think they tried as hard as they could. The answer to the latter is no, sitting the last 7 or 8 minutes of the game makes me think you gave up. I brought it up in the vein of why I (and possibly others) don't like LeBron. Right or wrong, part of an athletes likability is how they face challenges, and being behind in the 4th quarter counts.At the point he left for keeps, he had played all but 14 seconds of the game. The Heat were down 18 with 6:30 to go, so even if they had duplicated their +16 run in about the same time (6:56) they still would have lost.

The specter of Derrick Rose looms over every NBA game. Remember that his (first) catastrophic knee injury occurred when he was kept in a game that had already been decided. Maybe his knees were made of paper anyway, or maybe the never say die never take your foot off the pedal never take your foot off the throat rah rah killer instinct bullshit ruined his career.

[Latrinsorm]

First thought: which are the real Spurs?

2014 Finals - incredible passing (66% ast, 1.90 a/t), incredible shooting (60% eFG), dominating performance against a decent (11th) defense
2014 1st round - dismal passing (51%, 1.54), great shooting anyway (54%), barely get by a dismal (22nd) defense
2013 Finals - dismal passing (51%, 1.36), decent shooting (51%), barely get beat by a decent (9th) defense

Answer: the Spurs are saving basketball from the egomaniacal flopping whiny hero ball Heat with their team-first nobility, therefore the series where the dice fell in their favor is the real one and the others are just blips. Paraphrasing Breen... the Russell Celtics, the Showtime Lakers, the Bird Celtics are all nodding in approval. Bro, bro, bro.

Come on, bro.

Enormously conspicuous by their absence in that praise are Jordan's Bulls. Everyone knows Jordan was me-me-me and never passed, but let's look at % of baskets assisted by certain dynasties in the Finals:
62.88% - Showtime Lakers
62.86% - Jordan Bulls
61.74% - Bird Celtics
51.70% - Russell Celtics (only from '60 on because the records don't include assists any earlier than that)

The Russell Celtics were horrible at ball movement. Part of this is because everybody was horrible at it back then, but even compared to their own era they're average. They won not because they "played the right way", they won because they were better and lucky. Jordan's Bulls won not because they got all the calls and Jordan just isolated on every play, they won because they were better and lucky.

[Latrinsorm]

Next thought: I've said before how Duncan is clearly the greatest player between Jordan and LeBron, but now there can be no doubt.

Rings: Duncan 5, Kobe 5
MVPs: Duncan 2, Kobe 1
MVP shares: Duncan 4.278, Kobe 4.206
FMVPs: Duncan 3, Kobe 2
Individual stats: Duncan 24.6 and .211, Kobe 23.4 and .182
Playoff stats: Duncan 24.6 and .195, Kobe 22.4 and .157
On/off (since 01): Duncan +8.3, Kobe +6.7
Playoff rate: Duncan 17 for 17, Kobe 16 for 18
Playoff rounds won: Duncan 34, Kobe 33

Does anyone have even a single comparison where Kobe comes out ahead? Anything?

Each player is in the twilight of their careers. Duncan openly deferred to other players and signed a $30m/3yr contract. Kobe openly insisted that he was still the #1 option, chased Dwight Howard and multiple coaches out of town, and signed a $48m/2yr contract.

[Sorcasaurus]

And yet he is. I can't explain the why of it, as you say it is quite implausible. Then again, a human being being 6'9" 270 lbs and flying through the air is quite implausible too.

I may not have been entirely clear, but I do not consider him "normal" as you do. I think he's all sorts of confused, conceited and mentally weak in game. I'm just not surprised he's a bit messed in the head given the reasons I stated. He has shown signs of changing over the past year or two, but relapses all too often. I am happy that someone seems to finally be getting to him in a positive way though. As much as I may not like him, I'm not against the idea of it. Anyone who dislikes him should hope he changes our mind someday.


At the point he left for keeps, he had played all but 14 seconds of the game. The Heat were down 18 with 6:30 to go, so even if they had duplicated their +16 run in about the same time (6:56) they still would have lost.

The specter of Derrick Rose looms over every NBA game. Remember that his (first) catastrophic knee injury occurred when he was kept in a game that had already been decided. Maybe his knees were made of paper anyway, or maybe the never say die never take your foot off the pedal never take your foot off the throat rah rah killer instinct bullshit ruined his career.


I actually tried to find his playing time, but beyond google searches I don't know much about finding playing time stats. It wasn't in any articles I could find, do you mind sharing your source? Not doubting your information, just want to be able to find such things on my own.

Someone got hurt once playing a sport, great. That can be said in just about every sport in just about any situation. Even if you can provide totally valid reasons for him coming out, it was brought up on why I (and possibly others) do or do not like James. It's not the win/loss, it's the perception of how the player got there.

It looked like a few people on the Heat started to phone it in earlier, James did at 7 minutes. The better argument is if it was the coach that pulled him. Most references refer to it as James being the action or decision maker, but it would certainly change the dialog a little if he was pulled.

[Atlanteax]

Most references refer to it as James being the action or decision maker, but it would certainly change the dialog a little if he was pulled.

James insisted on playing and was goading his teammates to play harder in 1st & 2nd quarters. At the tail-end of the 4th, he was resigned to the fact that he could not just MJ it (who had help from Pippen, Kerr, etc ... Wade was broken, Allen missed a ton of 3s, etc)

[Androidpk]

Does anyone have even a single comparison where Kobe comes out ahead? Anything?
.

Kobe has ten letters in his first and last name while Duncan has 9.

[Latrinsorm]

I may not have been entirely clear, but I do not consider him "normal" as you do. I think he's all sorts of confused, conceited and mentally weak in game. I'm just not surprised he's a bit messed in the head given the reasons I stated. He has shown signs of changing over the past year or two, but relapses all too often. I am happy that someone seems to finally be getting to him in a positive way though. As much as I may not like him, I'm not against the idea of it. Anyone who dislikes him should hope he changes our mind someday.Confused, conceited, mentally weak... is that not normal? The person who never feels insecure is the weirdo, especially in front of a crowd of millions.
I actually tried to find his playing time, but beyond google searches I don't know much about finding playing time stats. It wasn't in any articles I could find, do you mind sharing your source? Not doubting your information, just want to be able to find such things on my own.

Someone got hurt once playing a sport, great. That can be said in just about every sport in just about any situation. Even if you can provide totally valid reasons for him coming out, it was brought up on why I (and possibly others) do or do not like James. It's not the win/loss, it's the perception of how the player got there.

It looked like a few people on the Heat started to phone it in earlier, James did at 7 minutes. The better argument is if it was the coach that pulled him. Most references refer to it as James being the action or decision maker, but it would certainly change the dialog a little if he was pulled.espn.com and basketball-reference.com have play-by-play information for all contemporary games, I like b-r better because it's a little quicker and just better: last night is here (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/201406150SAS.html). I honestly didn't remember if he visibly asked to come out or was just pulled, so I went back and checked the tape. No hand up, he wasn't going at 100% speed but again that's to be expected after playing the entire game up to that point.

And it's not just that the risk was there, but that there was risk with no chance of reward. Even Kobe (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/200806170BOS.html) sat down the stretch of a Finals annihilation.
Kobe has ten letters in his first and last name while Duncan has 9.Fair enough, Kobe best name ever. Count the letters.

[Latrinsorm]

One last thing about linking these Spurs to how the old greats used to play: if you divide 3 point attempts into field goal attempts, you get 3Pr. For the Finals the Spurs had a .3260, 25% higher than their regular season value and higher than everybody but just barely the Rockets' .320. The Heat put up an almost identical .3258. The three point shot of course did not exist when Russell played, and the highest 3Pr of any of the Bird/Magic years was 1989's .139 against the Pistons' .063. The Celtics' max was .081. Compare to this year's low in Memphis of .171, or consider that the last NBA team of any kind (let alone a Finals team) to not break .100 were the 2000 76ers.

Horace Grant recently mumbled something about how Jordan's Bulls would beat this year's Heat, and how the rule changes would make it dramatically easier for Jordan - a common sentiment, but one that vastly underestimates how much the game has changed even since his time. Chris Bosh attempted more 3s in game 5 than the entire 1980 champion Lakers did in a 6 game series.

And certain analysts still dismiss teams as "jump shooting teams". It's a brand new day.

[Latrinsorm]

Tidying up some historical business:

With these Finals, Duncan has moved into 3rd for career Finals WS, nosing just ahead of Shaq and remaining well behind Magic and Michael. (Finals WS can only be calculated from 1978-present.) LeBron passed a whole bunch of people to move from 21st into 12th (all with 3+), Wade dropped from 6th to 10th.

In terms of % of team's wins, Duncan dropped one spot due to being passed by LeBron and Wade dropped behind LeBron and Hakeem. They're still all in the 10 man club of 20%+.

The FMVP standings as awarded by WS now have Leonard tied with Wade and Kareem (still 78+ only), Duncan tied with Bird, LeBron breaking his tie with Chauncey and Pau. This doesn't really change anything about Mt. Rushmore, Kareem is still probably ahead of Duncan, but it's a bit closer.

[Ardwen]

Do you really think the heat as constructed are a serious threat to win the title, after all the offseason moves we'll see if they'll be a lock to win the east. But the heat collapsed in the finals, Wade is a shadow of the player he once was, Bosh is vastly overrated, he has never been consistent enough to carry a team, by the end of the series it turned into Lebron vs the Spurs and that didn't work for Jordan it sure wasn't going to work this year. Barring that 4 straight free miss spurt in the second game this series should have been a sweep.

[DoctorUnne]

SO HAPPY for Kawhi!

I don't even particularly care for the Spurs but it was a good story and if I was Duncan I would retire.

I do feel bad for LeBron. He had zero help the whole series. But whatever, he won two rings already and the Spurs deserved this after what happened to them last year. Just incredible watching the Spurs play offense this series. Set an NBA finals record for point differential. Here are some other stats that show how dominant they were.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/the-spurs-deconstruction-of-the-heat-is-now-complete/

[Atlanteax]

Do you really think the heat as constructed are a serious threat to win the title, after all the offseason moves we'll see if they'll be a lock to win the east. But the heat collapsed in the finals, Wade is a shadow of the player he once was, Bosh is vastly overrated, he has never been consistent enough to carry a team, by the end of the series it turned into Lebron vs the Spurs and that didn't work for Jordan it sure wasn't going to work this year. Barring that 4 straight free miss spurt in the second game this series should have been a sweep.

Battier is retiring and Allen may now too. Bosh is underrated IMO, but lacks aggressiveness/assertiveness ... Wade = definitely a shadow now.

[Latrinsorm]

Do you really think the heat as constructed are a serious threat to win the title, after all the offseason moves we'll see if they'll be a lock to win the east. But the heat collapsed in the finals, Wade is a shadow of the player he once was, Bosh is vastly overrated, he has never been consistent enough to carry a team, by the end of the series it turned into Lebron vs the Spurs and that didn't work for Jordan it sure wasn't going to work this year. Barring that 4 straight free miss spurt in the second game this series should have been a sweep.The irony of all the people touting the Spurs as a great model of success is that many of the same are suggesting the kind of wild overreaction that the Spurs avoid. The 2011 Spurs lost in the first round. The first round!!! Skip Bayless' head would explode if LeBron's team ever did that.

The Spurs made a total of one move in that offseason: trading George Hill for the 15th and 42nd picks in the draft that year. Trading a backup. That was all they thought they needed to return to serious title contention... and they were right!

The other 11 players who played in that first round were technically still on the team to start the 2012 season: McDyess retired and Novak(!!!) was waived during the season, Jefferson was traded for Captain Jack.

The remaining 8 were on the team for the entire next two seasons, through the Finals.

Gary Neal and DeJuan Blair signed to other teams in free agency, and the other 6 completed the journey from first round exit to champion: Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, Splitter, Green, Bonner.

.

You can't overreact to one series, good or bad. Teams that have actually been swept in the Finals sometimes manage to bounce back pretty well: the 83 Lakers turned out okay, and they were the only team to get swept that had championship experience. The 59 Lakers were a sub-.500 team in the Finals of an 8 team league, so they managed to snag a pretty good draft pick in Jerry West and went to 9 Finals in 13 years. The other 3 teams to get swept were first timers (95 Magic, 02 Nets, 07 Cavs) so the comparison is off.

[Ardwen]

Bosh no-shows way to often and relies entirely to much on his outside shot, when you have a 7 inch height advantage on the guy covering you, you should be doing something other then being the mad bomber. Watching Lebron standing alone off the end of the bench near the end of the game was very telling to me, and his comment about his team going over whats best for him, exactly like he did right before the end in Cleveland. unless you think the heat are going to somehow restructure all 3 of those contracts and add like 6 years each to get the cap down to where they can afford someone other then a midlevel exception. I just dont see it happening, if Rose was healthy I'd love to see what Lebron could do with a stud PG and Noah clogging the middle

[SHAFT]

Chris Bosh is maddening. Thinks he's a jumpshooter.

[Latrinsorm]

Bosh no-shows way to often and relies entirely to much on his outside shot, when you have a 7 inch height advantage on the guy covering you, you should be doing something other then being the mad bomber. Watching Lebron standing alone off the end of the bench near the end of the game was very telling to me, and his comment about his team going over whats best for him, exactly like he did right before the end in Cleveland. unless you think the heat are going to somehow restructure all 3 of those contracts and add like 6 years each to get the cap down to where they can afford someone other then a midlevel exception. I just dont see it happening, if Rose was healthy I'd love to see what Lebron could do with a stud PG and Noah clogging the middleYou can't play modern NBA offense with three non-shooters on the floor. This doesn't mean you can't play a successful offense, but go down the starters of the top and bottom 5 offenses:
Clippers - Blake and DeAndre, plus both have elite athleticism
Blazers - Lopez
Mavericks - Dalembert (Ellis usually falls in this category but had an up year this year)
Houston - Howard and Jones
Heat - Wade

Bucks - everyone but Middleton
Celtics - everyone but Bradley
Bulls - Noah, Butler, Boozer
Magic - everyone but Afflalo
76ers - everyone but Hawes

Against a modern (hybrid zone) NBA defense, spacing is absolutely critical. There are ways to generate spacing without shooting, but you're really making it hard on yourself. Rose for his career put up .874 points per long jumper, that's brutal for a perimeter player. Wade's career is even worse at .803, and the way his has held nearly constant at .8028 the past 3 years should deflate the "oh well it'll go up playing next to LeBron" sentiment.

The possibilities on the defensive end with James and Noah are tantalizing, but Bosh is an underrated defender and gives soooo much more on the offensive end. Bosh this year gave you .993 on long jumpers. Dirk's 1.110 is obviously the gold standard, but Bosh beats the pants off of LMA's .884 and everybody likes him. Put James with two non-shooters in Rose and Noah and James has to play off the ball, and if he's limited to that why even bother bringing him in? He's an elite spot-up shooter, yes, but you can get that for a lot cheaper both in $$ and expectations.

And because it was fun calculating that, I went ahead and did a few others:
Durant 1.035 over the past 4 years (his early years were kind of shady)
LeBron .954 over the past 4 years (same)
Curry 1.166 (bizarrely consistent from year to year except for the abbreviated 2012 campaign)
Josh Smith .742
Kobe .894 (only since 2001 because that's how far back the stats go, % jumps are big but apparently unrelated to supporting cast)

.

Throw in that LeBron got sick of the Jordan comps about 10 years ago, and there's no way he's going to Chicago.

[Keller]

Lebron has his kids enrolled in Cleveland schools for the next academic year.

Not sure how much more of a clue you need that he's not signing with Chicago.

[SHAFT]

I heard from my contacts in Miami that lebrons kids enrolling in Ohio means he's signing with Orlando.

[Androidpk]

I heard from my contacts in Miami that lebrons kids enrolling in Ohio means he's signing with Orlando.

Boston. Ray Allen too.

[Keller]

I heard from my contacts in Miami that lebrons kids enrolling in Ohio means he's signing with Orlando.

I hope these aren't the same contacts that indignantly mocked me for stating Lebron would only win 2 out of 4 NBA championships.

It would be a comedy of errors if they were wrong about this, too.

[SHAFT]

I hope these aren't the same contacts that indignantly mocked me for stating Lebron would only win 2 out of 4 NBA championships.

It would be a comedy of errors if they were wrong about this, too.

He's 2 out of 5 bro. Get your facts straight!

[Keller]

I heard from my contacts in Miami that lebrons kids enrolling in Ohio means he's signing with Orlando.

:snicker: