Lores vs CS

[Jeril]

Is there a point where it is more beneficial to train lores over more spells for CS? I have seen some people give opinion about it from time to time but not real solid evidence for one way or another.

[GuildRat]

I'd put CS over lore training. The reasoning is the damage added from training in lores does no good if you can't hit the target consistently. Once your CS is high enough to ward 90% of the time, I'd say you're good to go. There's no reason why, post level 60-70'ish you can't be fully singled in a lore/lores and tripled in spell training, unless you have some kind of Frankenstein build.


Sorry it took so long to get back on this matter.

[Rucca]

CS over lore training, most definitely. Once you 3x your spells and are good to go on that, then go ahead and lore train it up.

[GuildRat]

Just to add to this....

If your cleric is going to be hunting in Illistim at or around 60-70 trains, spell aiming is a must to hunt Skull Temple. I say this because of the Dogmatists. Unless you plan on using 230 on every Dogmatist, you'll never ward them, and they're easy to mow down with wands or 110. I screwed up and fixskilled to pure CS right before I started hunting the area. I can't count the bounties I had to skip because I couldn't/wouldn't do Dogmatist bounties.

[Ceyrin]

Get lores. CS is for noobs who don't know what they're doing.

ETA: I like how all the replies to this thread come a month later.

[masterdtwin]

Get lores. CS is for noobs who don't know what they're doing.

ETA: I like how all the replies to this thread come a month later.

Based on the testing that Whirlin and I have done. There appears to be a significant increase in instant-deaths when the total endroll (including the stance/hand bonus) is 150 or higher.

I would say that Once you hit that point where you are consistantly 150+ then lores would be worth more. But prior to that my best guess is CS is more effective than lores. Mind you this is only for 302, and your other spells may be significantly more lore dependant.

How's that for a late reply :D

[Whirlin]

A bit more subjective... but I'd say to train Cleric Circle +21, Other circles to 2/3 level, and then work on religion lore. After that point, you'll be hitting such diminishing returns from more CS training that I believe that the lores will be more substantial.

If you're open hand + Shield for the channel bonuses, you'll need to CS to be able to hit reliably.
If you're runestaff / guarded, you'll need the CS to hit the 150/160+ threshold for increased chance.

Once you hit a maximum of .25 CS gain per spell rank (Cleric +21), that's 4 spell ranks (at 32 MTP or 64 PTP) fore +1 CS... alternatively, a rank in lores will cost (0/12 MTP or 24/0 PTP... assuming you're already singled... which you should be). So that'd be 10 ranks of lores at the cost of doubling each rank compared to the four spell ranks at the cost of tripling each each. So instead of getting +1 to hit or +(lookup DF later) to damage, you'll be getting +*% to instant-kill and infusion rate.

Further influential in the discussion is that your raise potency is maxed out by the time you're hitting +21/.66/.66 spell ranks, so further overtraining in cleric circle will not yield additional spell duration, spell potency or duration (except maybe bless duration... yay?),

________
footnotes:
*: Testing pending

[Jeril]

Once you hit a maximum of .25 CS gain per spell rank (Cleric +21), that's 4 spell ranks (at 32 MTP or 64 PTP) fore +1 CS... alternatively, a rank in lores will cost (0/12 MTP or 24/0 PTP... assuming you're already singled... which you should be). So that'd be 10 ranks of lores at the cost of doubling each rank compared to the four spell ranks at the cost of tripling each each. So instead of getting +1 to hit or +(lookup DF later) to damage, you'll be getting +*% to instant-kill and infusion rate.

Further influential in the discussion is that your raise potency is maxed out by the time you're hitting +21/.66/.66 spell ranks, so further overtraining in cleric circle will not yield additional spell duration, spell potency or duration (except maybe bless duration... yay?),

________
footnotes:
*: Testing pending

Except that from ranks 21-60 over you get .5 CS per, not .25, and ideally you stop at 59 over because of the whole rounding thing.

[Whirlin]

I stand by my +21. Even at +.5 CS per rank, I'd still likely lean more towards religion... even if the exact correlation is still TBD.

[Archdevil]

Except that from ranks 21-60 over you get .5 CS per, not .25, and ideally you stop at 59 over because of the whole rounding thing.

Wouldnt you stop at 61 over because the .1 will round up?

[Whirlin]

Wouldnt you stop at 61 over because the .1 will round up?

Negative. Circle of the spell being cast is rounded conventionally... so .5 rounds up, .25 rounds down. After 59, you need 62 ranks to get +1 CS.

Whereas secondary circles round up

[Archdevil]

Negative. Circle of the spell being cast is rounded conventionally... so .5 rounds up, .25 rounds down. After 59, you need 62 ranks to get +1 CS.

Whereas secondary circles round up

I see. I must have remembered that backwards. Thanks for the clarification.

[Ceyrin]

Don't let these people fool you, Jeril.

Lores are better. You know what I do with Ceyrin, and I do it with 2x spells.

[Jeril]

Don't let these people fool you, Jeril.

Lores are better. You know what I do with Ceyrin, and I do it with 2x spells.

Haha, I also know what Kaedra does.

[Ceyrin]

Much as I respect Kaedra for being Kaedra for us all, she's not exactly an average representation. Though, to be fair I don't know much about being a pure cleric prior to level 70. I used a claid up until then.

[elcidcannon]

This is my pure cleric, who hunts in Illy (with enhancives). I'm not having any issues, and was hunting in Wyneb pretty easily at 60. I feel that I could bump my CS up a bit....am I heavy in Religion?

Without enhancives, I'm 25 in Blessings and 75 in Religion.

(at level 63), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Physical Fitness...................| 165 65
Arcane Symbols.....................| 167 67
Magic Item Use.....................| 165 65
Harness Power......................| 198 98
Spirit Mana Control................| 120 30
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 120 30
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 186 86
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 70 15
Perception.........................| 165 65
Climbing...........................| 96 22
Swimming...........................| 78 17
First Aid..........................| 126 33

Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 25

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 30

Spell Lists
Cleric.............................| 100

[Jeril]

This is my pure cleric, who hunts in Illy (with enhancives). I'm not having any issues, and was hunting in Wyneb pretty easily at 60. I feel that I could bump my CS up a bit....am I heavy in Religion?

Without enhancives, I'm 25 in Blessings and 75 in Religion.

(at level 63), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Physical Fitness...................| 165 65
Arcane Symbols.....................| 167 67
Magic Item Use.....................| 165 65
Harness Power......................| 198 98
Spirit Mana Control................| 120 30
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 120 30
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 186 86
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 70 15
Perception.........................| 165 65
Climbing...........................| 96 22
Swimming...........................| 78 17
First Aid..........................| 126 33

Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 25

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 30

Spell Lists
Cleric.............................| 100

I tend to think anything above 1x in lores is heavy until postcap.

[Gelston]

On my wizard I had maxed out CS, the highest natural CS possible. This is without enhancives and all that. You do want lores to a certain amount.... But if you can't comfortably hit things, all the lore training in the world means nothing.

[Maerit]

So, I was asking this question recently - At 20 trains still within my 30 days of instant migration, I sacrificed 4 ranks of spells to get 20 ranks of Religion lore and netted 30-45 more damage per bane cast. I lost 2 CS. That sacrifice seemed significantly better than going without lores and getting the +2 CS.

[Soulance]

I keep asking this so I'd love to get a hard copy down here because I always forget once someone tells me. What's the max stats for Spell training in a Capped Cleric? Is it something like 167/x/x?

I heard one build gives you better DS, is that with MnS? What does boosing MnS vs. MjS help with?

[GuildRat]

166/70 MinSp/67 MajSp. That's the build for I think 3 extra DS at max spells.

[Soulance]

166/70 MinSp/67 MajSp. That's the build for I think 3 extra DS at max spells.
Thanks! Now I don't have to keep bugging everyone multiple times.