Some Key Numbers

[GSTamral]

Some key numbers from the election:
2000 African American Vote: 90 Gore -9 Bush
2004 Polled African Americans - 73 Kerry -14 Bush
USA Today CNN/Gallup Poll: 52 Bush - 44 Kerry amongst likely voters, 49-46 amongst Registered Voters.
Rueters/Zogby: 50 Bush - 44 Kerry, 48 Bush - 46 Kerry amongst registered voters.
American Research Group ( a noted liberal bias polling group) 48 Bush - 46 Kerry
Strategic Vision (a noted conservative bias polling group): No national number released, but based on polling states: 53 Bush - 41 Kerry.
An interesting, if not unexpected jump in the polls for Bush, despite after 3 debates in which he was seen as having lost in each one. Or did he truly lose them? You can be outwitted and generally outdone, and still win a debate. Immediate impulse reaction and long term reaction can often be two separate things. Bush's approval rating has gone down from its 55% high after the Republican convention, back down to anywhere between 49-52 depending on which poll you use right now, yet in terms of character assassination, Bush has done a far better job. While Kerry got an initial bounce in all the polls, again, the margin is back to where it was after the republican convention, and things are looking like a national gap of anywhere from 5-10 points right now.

From the latest Gallup poll, here's some interesting figures as well:

Characteristics:
Is the more Intelligent candidate:
51 Kerry - 36 Bush
I agree with more on the issues:
49 Bush - 46 Kerry
Is more trustworthy
51 Bush - 40 Kerry
Is more likely to keep campaign promises:
52 Bush - 39 Kerry
A strong and decisive leader:
58 Bush - 37 Kerry
Shares your values:
54 Bush - 42 Kerry
Has a clear plan to solve America's problems:
48 Bush - 42 Kerry

On the issues:
Healthcare:
51 Kerry - 45 Bush
Federal Budget:
55 Kerry - 42 Bush
Social Security
49 Bush - 46 Kerry
The economy
49 Kerry - 48 Bush
Immigration:
49 Bush - 36 Kerry
Education:
49 Bush - 47 Kerry
Iraq
54 Bush - 39 Kerry
Medicare
55 Kerry - 41 Bush
Taxes
57 Bush - 39 Kerry
Terrorism
61 Bush - 36 Kerry

[Parkbandit]

The Democrats seriously fucked up when they nominated THE most liberal in the Senate. Shit.. even an unknown should be beating Bush right now.

Oh well.. there's always 2008 and Hillary.

[Back]

Bush's approval rating has gone down from its 55% high after the Republican convention, back down to anywhere between 49-52 depending on which poll you use right now, yet in terms of character assassination, Bush has done a far better job.

Indeed. This administration has been about deception from the get go. Sadly, the American people are the only ones to blame for not going out and getting their facts straight.

[GSTamral]

Backlash, one simple truth about not just America, but in how things work, most of it is perception. Almost everyone and their mother who viewed things independantly in the first debate could see that Kerry "won" the debate. But it isn't about winning a debate, or winning by speaking intelligently about issues.

Kerry didn't bring anything to the table that he hadn't already, and while he clearly showed a better understanding of the issues, he didn't really sway many voters in the long term the way he needed to. Bush's team has done an excellent job of character assassination, and has protrayed Kerry as a left wing flip flopper, and that perception has stayed. Kerry has not done enough to fight that image, and even some of his own words have only supported the notion.

It will be very hard to swing voters when the public perception has you on the border of being anti-patriotic. I don't think Kerry is anywhere nearly as blackhearted as he is being portrayed, but at the same time, I do believe Kerry would choose himself over the American people when presented the chance. And that is a dangerous stigma to have.

I know people like Wezas and TRL will google a billion links of personal accounts and facts to say otherwise, but the bottom line is right now, the truth is in the background, and perception is the only thing that matters. This is much the same way that Reagan defeated Carter, Clinton defeated Bush Sr, and how Kennedy won anything.

People hate dirty politics in general, but the impact that is has on public perception is absolutely undeniable. Kerry took the middle road on the issue, and while he has talked of plans to do many things, again, domestically, it falls down to the perception that he is a monday morning quarterback, excellent with critiques, but incapable of actually getting things done. He needed many more quips and little jokes such as the his joke of GWB talking about fiscal responsibility, or the FDR invading Mexico. He simply isn't likable.

He needs people to go out and vote. The last number I read of people polled, 68% were enthusiastic about this year's election, while almost 25% were apathetic. That only leaves 7% in the middle to sway. But those enthusiastic people have given Bush a lead, and without getting those others to actually take that step to go out to vote, Kerry's chances are thinning.

[GSTamral]

to the last post, I think the best illustration can be seen with the differences in the way Americans feel on the issues as opposed to candidate characteristics. On the issues, its quite evenly split.

but when it comes to character, public perception of Kerry is far worse than that of Bush. Now begs the question of whether or not Kerry really won any of the debates, because he didn't do a good job of shifting that public eye. Bush may not have either, but held his own enough to at least find a way to maintain status quo. And when you are winning, status quo is your friend.

Oh, and since Wezas will undoubtedly ask where the numbers were googled from, they are all in today's USA Today, and most can be found on CNN as well as yahoo. The numbers for strategic vision I got from a simple mean average from Strategic Vision's individual state by state polling, all of which used between 1,000 and 1,050 respondants.

[Edited on 10-18-2004 by GSTamral]

[xtc]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
The Democrats seriously fucked up when they nominated THE most liberal in the Senate. Shit.. even an unknown should be beating Bush right now.

Oh well.. there's always 2008 and Hillary.


Let's not even joke about Hillary in 2008, if she wins in 2008 I will move to Canada....or shit I already did that. I am still waiting for Alec Baldwin to move up here.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by GSTamral Bush's team has done an excellent job of character assassination, and has protrayed Kerry as a left wing flip flopper, and that perception has stayed. Kerry has not done enough to fight that image, and even some of his own words have only supported the notion.


I don't think you can credit Bush for making Kerry look like an extreme Liberal. He is what he is. He is THE most Liberal member of the Senate.. beating out even Ted Kennedy.

[Back]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by GSTamral Bush's team has done an excellent job of character assassination, and has protrayed Kerry as a left wing flip flopper, and that perception has stayed. Kerry has not done enough to fight that image, and even some of his own words have only supported the notion.


I don't think you can credit Bush for making Kerry look like an extreme Liberal. He is what he is. He is THE most Liberal member of the Senate.. beating out even Ted Kennedy.

Here is a perfect example of the success of this administrations character assassination of Kerry.

We all know that PB didn’t read every single peice of legislation Kerry worked on to determine this conclusion. Its just being repeated from the “National Review”, a cog in the character assassination machine.

Also note that the term liberal is used in a derogatory way. This country has thrived under liberal presidents as much as conservative.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by GSTamral Bush's team has done an excellent job of character assassination, and has protrayed Kerry as a left wing flip flopper, and that perception has stayed. Kerry has not done enough to fight that image, and even some of his own words have only supported the notion.


I don't think you can credit Bush for making Kerry look like an extreme Liberal. He is what he is. He is THE most Liberal member of the Senate.. beating out even Ted Kennedy.

Here is a perfect example of the success of this administrations character assassination of Kerry.

We all know that PB didn’t read every single peice of legislation Kerry worked on to determine this conclusion. Its just being repeated from the “National Review”, a cog in the character assassination machine.

Also note that the term liberal is used in a derogatory way. This country has thrived under liberal presidents as much as conservative.

Backlash.. so you've read every piece of Legislation that Kerry has produced to come to the conclusion that I used the term Liberal in a derogatory way?

What's that? You didn't?

Exactly.

[Hulkein]

PB, how dare you fall for the National Review.

Kerry is not a liberal, that is just a worthless label. He is the answer to everything wrong in this country.

Damn labels.

[Back]

You were supposed to claim that my saying “Bush lied to the American people about Iraq” was a character assassination attempt planted in my head by the obviously left-wing liberal media. Try and keep up here.

[GSTamral]

I don't think there is a question that the media tends to have a left bias. Some media outlets have a right bias as well, but in general, the bias tends towards the left. Most newspapers endorsed Mondale, Dukakis, and have generally endorsed democrats ever since the mid to late 60's.

Those journalist positions generally tend to not pay very well, so most of the time there is a right wing bias, its for all the wrong reasons as well.

I mean hell, even Walter Cronkite, who himself was one of the most independant newsmen of our time, despite being a registered democrat, has said that media in general has been embarassingly partisan, referring to his own replacement, Dan Rather.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by GSTamral
I know people like Wezas and TRL will google a billion links of personal accounts and facts to say otherwise, but the bottom line is right now, the truth is in the background, and perception is the only thing that matters.

Tamral-

The only thing you can count on from me is that I'll attempt to keep you honest when you start on your conspiracy bullshit about GMs and Ken. As far as politics are concerned - I am hesitant to discuss anything with you, frankly I never know when your tirades will turn to my intelligence or appearance or any other cheap shot that you can't resist.

And as I stated before, your arguments just continue to show your contempt for Kerry and frankly - at this stage of the game - people have made up their minds. You can pontificate all you like, but this gal isn't going to bite.

I implore you to find a bulletin board worthy of your intellectual acumen or start talking about the issues. Stop feeding us polls.

[GSLeloo]

I wanted howard dean.... :(

[Blazing247]

Woof! Woof!

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by Parkbandit


I don't think you can credit Bush for making Kerry look like an extreme Liberal. He is what he is. He is THE most Liberal member of the Senate.. beating out even Ted Kennedy.

Wait..how can he flip flop on issues and also be "THE most Liberal member of the Senate?"

[AnticorRifling]

My wife, a democrat (or hippy if you prefer) made me cry yesterday. Someone knocked on my door and asked if they could put a Bush sign in my yard I said sure, they did and my wife came home and saw it. I expected some sort of uproar but she said she was voting for Bush. I was so proud.

She agrees with me in thinking that this election isn't about voting for who's right it's about voting for whoever is the lesser of two evils.

[Prestius]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
The Democrats seriously fucked up when they nominated THE most liberal in the Senate.

And the Supreme Court fucked up when they selected the stupidest President to ever inhabit the White House to the Presidency.

So .. what's it going to be? Someone that was called the Most Liberal in one particular year. Or someone who's proven himself to be a complete incompetent at running the country.

It just amazes me that anyone with half a brain can look at Bush and not see what an utter mess he's made of things. His actions related to the 9-11 commission alone deserve to get him booted from office.

So .. yeah .. I'll take someone's skewed definition of "Liberal" over my own defintion of "incompetent".

-P

[GSTamral]

You know, it's just as always, where 90% of America has already made their decision as to who to vote for, where everyone voting for the other candidate is some sort of blathering idiot who can't see the truth.

The swing voters here are the concern. There are more than enough of them to tilt the election one way or another. Kerry, while showing he was more knowledgable on the issues, has not made strides in public perception of his character. Will he be able to swing enough middle of the road voters to take the election?

As of this moment, the answer has been no.

[GSTamral]

<<
It just amazes me that anyone with half a brain can look at Bush and not see what an utter mess he's made of things. His actions related to the 9-11 commission alone deserve to get him booted from office.>>

And I am sure you will find conservatives who will make the exact same statement coming the other way. And my assertion is that you are both right.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Prestius
the stupidest President to ever inhabit the White House to the Presidency.
And that's putting it nicely. It is simply mind boggling.

[Keller]

kind of late in chiming in here ... but it's obvious PB reads the American Spectator and not the National Review.

In other news --- PB is really good at repeating things other people say. Maybe he should learn sign language and be the deaf minister for a church.

[Ilvane]

I don't understand how Bush is getting so much support either, but that's not my decision to make.

I'm proud to be a Liberal, from good ole Mass. too. I don't care if people call me that, because I'd rather be called that than a conservative. Social issues are important, so is making sure the middle class gets taken care of, and so is healthcare. So if that makes Kerry a liberal, he should be proud to call himself one.

I don't think being someone like Bush who calls himself a compassionate conservative is good either, because as far as financial situations, Bush is not conservative at all. All you have to do is look at the deficits, and his tax cuts.

Compassionate, hmm..how about the 17% increase in medicare premiums, or the low funding on "No Child Left Behind"...oh wait..if you don't have a high paying job.."Just go to school!" I'll give you a thousand dollars of a tax cut, but I won't make sure you have a job with a living wage while you are trying to get there.."Oh wait, my daddy paid for my education, didn't he.."

He's a war president alright..no wait a couple weeks later he said he was a peace president..

Oh wait..there were weapons of mass destruction which made us have to go to Iraq--no wait they weren't there!

Hmm, We'll have elections in January in Iraq, and the Iraqi people will be free!!--No wait..we don't have enough security there, or UN help..are you sure?

......

Just a few reasons for my vote for Kerry. Anyone can do better than this President has.

-A

[Prestius]

Originally posted by GSTamral
<<
It just amazes me that anyone with half a brain can look at Bush and not see what an utter mess he's made of things. His actions related to the 9-11 commission alone deserve to get him booted from office.>>

And I am sure you will find conservatives who will make the exact same statement coming the other way. And my assertion is that you are both right.

I'm sure that's true. But when I hear things like "Don't Elect Kerry, He'll Screw Things Up" .. I think to myself .. let's see .. the current President spent the "Summer of Terror Alerts" on vacation, ignored the warnings of the previous Administration and put counter-terrorism on the back burner, presided over the biggest failure of intelligence in U.S. history which cost thousands of lives, refused to take an active role in the investigation of the failure, presided over a huge loss of jobs, put the U.S. in debt up to our eyeballs, destroyed the only good thing to come out of 9-11 - International goodwill and a united front against terrorist, justified a pre-emptive war on a nation that had nothing to do with 9-11 or terrorism .. I ask myself ..

How can anyone POSSIBLY screw things up any worse?

-P

[xtc]

Bush was nuts to go into Iraq. Tax cuts across the board are a great idea and has helped us avoid a serious recession. At least he did fund no child left behind and I don't think the Government should be responsible for finding everyone job. National unemployment is around 5.5 % and 4% is considered ideal economically as there are those people who just won't work.

What I would have liked to have seen from Bush is getting tough on China with their litany of unfair trade practices and tying trade to human rights there.

So far Kerry is my vote, although I am voting Repub locally, like I said before I would like see a Repub house and a Democratic president to balance things. To be honest I hope Kerry doesn't keep all his election promises because if he does he will have to raise taxes to pay for them.

Ilvane a proud liberal from Mass......hmmmmm Mass seems to have an abudance of liberals......you'd think the damn place was Canada lol

[Ilvane]

Unfortunatly we have a Republican governor with sights on the White House. He's too busy running around campaigning for Bush to do his job, aside from the gay marriage stuff.

Watch, Mitt Romney will either run for Senate if Kerry wins, or President in 2008.

I don't know anyone that voted for him, but somehow he got in as Governor..:lol:

-A

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Prestius

Originally posted by Parkbandit
The Democrats seriously fucked up when they nominated THE most liberal in the Senate.

And the Supreme Court fucked up when they selected the stupidest President to ever inhabit the White House to the Presidency.

So .. what's it going to be? Someone that was called the Most Liberal in one particular year. Or someone who's proven himself to be a complete incompetent at running the country.

It just amazes me that anyone with half a brain can look at Bush and not see what an utter mess he's made of things. His actions related to the 9-11 commission alone deserve to get him booted from office.

So .. yeah .. I'll take someone's skewed definition of "Liberal" over my own defintion of "incompetent".

-P

It amazes me that you actually still believe the 2000 election was won by Gore and that Bush stole it. It amazes me how little you know about the election process of the country you live in.

You and Warclaidhm make me feel smart. Thanks.

[Ilvane]

527 votes in Florida, PB.

The electoral votes that were questions were from Florida, who did not allow a recount, and also turned people away in Democratic districts.

It's still an issue now, so at least they have early voting open this year in those states.

-A

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ilvane
Unfortunatly we have a Republican governor with sights on the White House. He's too busy running around campaigning for Bush to do his job, aside from the gay marriage stuff.

-A

What a hypocrite you are... you have zero problem with Kerry being non-existant for the past year as a Senator.. but you have a problem with a Governor who has been there probably 10x as much as Kerry has been... simply because he is Republican.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ilvane
527 votes in Florida, PB.

The electoral votes that were questions were from Florida, who did not allow a recount, and also turned people away in Democratic districts.

It's still an issue now, so at least they have early voting open this year in those states.

-A

Oh yes.. they were beating the blacks to stop them from voting. They were whipping the women.. they were slapping the elderly.

Sure.

I also heard that space aliens came down and prevented 11 Republicans from voting.. so I guess we are even.

:rolleyes:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Keller
kind of late in chiming in here ... but it's obvious PB reads the American Spectator and not the National Review.

In other news --- PB is really good at repeating things other people say. Maybe he should learn sign language and be the deaf minister for a church.

This coming from Captain Regurgitation? Come now spanky.. do you mean to tell me that everything you are posting is completely all your own ideas? Please share these earth shattering views with us.. since we've never heard them before.

What's that? You don't have anything new?

That's what I thought.

[Prestius]

>> It amazes me that you actually still believe the 2000 election was won by Gore and that Bush stole it. It amazes me how little you know about the election process of the country you live in.

You and Warclaidhm make me feel smart. Thanks. <<

You know PB, it would be a lot more fun to discuss these things with you if you weren't such an insulting asshole all the time. Seriously.

Despite your attempt at insulting my intelligence, I'll give you that Bush was legally elected .. although he didn't exactly enter office on a rousing mandate from the people.

Be that as it may .. the laundry list of comeplete incompetence still stands. And I still contend that Bush is the worst President to ever sit in the Oval Office.

-P

[xtc]

Originally posted by Ilvane
527 votes in Florida, PB.

The electoral votes that were questions were from Florida, who did not allow a recount, and also turned people away in Democratic districts.

It's still an issue now, so at least they have early voting open this year in those states.

-A

The rumours of eligible voters being turned away from polls in FLA in 2000 is spurious. Not one person came foward and launched an official complaint stating they had been turned away, not one lawsuit filed from such a person.

They counted the votes in certain FLA counties twice. What Gore wanted counted were ballots that were voided and under election law not to be counted. Every election, ballots are voided because some voter has screwed up the ballot. If you feel you have made a mistake on your ballot you can return it the election official and ask for another. But you can't divine voter intent.

But for those you try, a Major Accounting firm was hired by The Miami Herald to count all the invalid ballots and guess what ? Bush had more votes yet again. One, two, three time he won.

http://dailybeacon.utk.edu/article.php/1983

[Edited on 10-19-2004 by xtc]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Oh yes.. they were beating the blacks to stop them from voting. They were whipping the women.. they were slapping the elderly. Don't forget stomping the kittens.
Originally posted by Prestius
And I still contend that Bush is the worst President to ever sit in the Oval Office. Yes, and Iraq is another Vietnam. :rolleyes:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Prestius
>> It amazes me that you actually still believe the 2000 election was won by Gore and that Bush stole it. It amazes me how little you know about the election process of the country you live in.

You and Warclaidhm make me feel smart. Thanks. <<

You know PB, it would be a lot more fun to discuss these things with you if you weren't such an insulting asshole all the time. Seriously.

Despite your attempt at insulting my intelligence, I'll give you that Bush was legally elected .. although he didn't exactly enter office on a rousing mandate from the people.

Be that as it may .. the laundry list of comeplete incompetence still stands. And I still contend that Bush is the worst President to ever sit in the Oval Office.

-P

Next time don't be a dumb asshole and I won't have to be an insulting asshole.

Thanks.

Also, just another bit of election trivia for you to comprehend.. it does not take a rousing mandate from the people to be elected President. You simply have to have the most electorial college votes.

PS - Glad you have finally accepted the 2000 Election. This IS a step in the right direction... though it did take you 4 years.

[Edited on 10-19-2004 by Parkbandit]

[Prestius]

Seriously .. are all conservatives as purposefully insulting when they can't argue rationally?

Basically I laid out a long list of reasons why Bush is an incompetent President. What did I get? Insult laced comments about my understanding of the election process. Nothing directly discussing or refuting the points I made.

Thanks PB .. you really do lift the discourse. The Republican Party must be proud to have you in its ranks. As much as I enjoy a good intelligent political discussion, most conversations with you seen to be none of the above.

-P

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Prestius
Seriously .. are all conservatives as purposefully insulting when they can't argue rationally?


Well not all, but just look at Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly (Even though he says he's Ind.), Sean Hannity, Karen Hughes, Robert Novak, Tucker Carlson and the biggest one of all George W Bush.

My husband won't let me watch Hannity and Colmes because I get so upset at Sean Hannity.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Prestius
Seriously .. are all conservatives as purposefully insulting when they can't argue rationally?

Basically I laid out a long list of reasons why Bush is an incompetent President. What did I get? Insult laced comments about my understanding of the election process. Nothing directly discussing or refuting the points I made.

Thanks PB .. you really do lift the discourse. The Republican Party must be proud to have you in its ranks. As much as I enjoy a good intelligent political discussion, most conversations with you seen to be none of the above.

-P

You really didn't say.. can't argue rationally.. did you? YOU are the one that claimed Bush stole the election.. that the Supreme Court wrongly put him into power.

Talk about your bullshit rational. Come on Prestius.. you can do better than "Boo hoo.. look at me.. PB made me look like a dumbass and now I'm going to cry".

Next time you want to argue stuff based on facts.. bring some facts.

Thanks.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Prestius
Seriously .. are all conservatives as purposefully insulting when they can't argue rationally?


Well not all, but just look at Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly (Even though he says he's Ind.), Sean Hannity, Karen Hughes, Robert Novak, Tucker Carlson and the biggest one of all George W Bush.

My husband won't let me watch Hannity and Colmes because I get so upset at Sean Hannity.

I feel the same way about Dan Rather.

[CrystalTears]

OMG I can't wait for this election to be over! Maybe afterwards people will stop being so snarly with each other over their personal choice for president.

[Parkbandit]

Hey FUCK YOU CT! How dare you call me snarly!

:)

[CrystalTears]

Actually... my comment wasn't anywhere near discussing you, da-lin'. ;)

[GSTamral]

Prestius, no offense, but when you basically insinuate that anybody voting for Bush is a moron, you're going to get some negative feedback from anyone backing Bush.

Not that your assessment that Bush has screwed some things up isn't correct, or lacks validity, but some people feel much the same way about Kerry.

Most people I know tend to be on the conservative side. I know some of them will be voting for Kerry, and I know some of them will be voting for Bush. I personally feel a sense of apathy to Bush, who I believe is trying to retie church and state, and that his social agenda and foreign policy is terrible. But I also see Kerry as a backstabbing asshole who doesn't know a lick about middle class life, and who's domestic policy ideas are not only unrealistic, but reminiscent of the kinds of promises Enron gave.

Our education system FUCKING SUCKS. We hold teachers responsible for disciplining our youth, but liberal lawmaking has removed their ability to do anything to enforce discipline. We spend oodles of money on teachers who in general, aren't qualified to manage a Mcdonalds, because they sure as fuck arent teaching right. No child left behind isn't the answer, but maybe it's a start that SOMEBODY realizes that a major overhaul is needed, and a whole slew of teachers need to be shown the unemployment line.

Our government is enormous. More than 300 times the size of Microsoft, excluding military and police, yet they produce nothing. They are overpaid in general, and have some of the easiest hours known to man. Talk about a big ass burden on the system. I'd like to see a candidate willing to undo this clusterfuck.

Our tax system is screwed up. The top cap hasn't been raised from 200,000 in 25+ years. And 200,000 now isn't anywhere near what it was back then. We need another bracket, at say, 1,000,000. Even as a conservative, I can stand behind an additional tax above an amount like that.

We institute a tax penalty for people who get married. Why?

We keep losing jobs to countries overseas because non-skilled union positions have priced themselves out of the market, yet we continue to support these unions? Are we letting baseball set the precedent? Damn straight I would recommend firing more of our United States workforce who want 29 dollars an hour for filing shit, and I am happy that the people above me who have the power to make that decision agreed and did it. We even paid millions of dollars for a document imaging system so we can send all the documents over there quickly. You don't feel like getting educated, or at least learning a skilled trade? Well shit, don't expect to live in comfort then, or for other people to overpay you.

We have a major power crisis in this country. Why haven't we been addressing this? Why are we overlooking the fact that George Bush AND Dick Cheney have ties to major oil and are blocking fuel cell research to pursue nuclear power options (which while safe, simply isn't practical anymore because no civilians have the skill to fabricate and build those boilers anymore in the US), while Kerry, who BLOCKED legislation in 2001 to continue research in hydroelectric power now talks about using it as a renewable energy source (yet another of his vaunted flip-flops). Why are we forcing companies to spend millions of dollars to reduce NO-X gas from their boiler emissions (SCR) when by doing so, it creates a more troublesome stream of carbon monoxide?

Why are we at war with Iraq when they had nothing to do with 9/11, nor do they have WOMD?

Why does Kerry support the continuation of the inheritance tax at the current ceding limit of 600,000? And how can he lie straight faced and call himself a good president for small business and middle class america if he plans of fucking mom and pop shops and making it difficult for a parent to pass a hard earned home to their children when they die?

Economically, we are at 5.5% unemployment, which is in range of the generally accepted median of 4-6%. Companies reported record profits in 2003, levels that were even higher than 1999. While we certainly arent out of this recession, we aren't hard blown in one either. With China's demand on oil and steel rising by the minute, oil prices would be insanely high with or without this Iraq war. Yet we still choose to tell Alaska what they can and can't do with their land, because some trees might have hurt feelings.

There are strong points for both sides in this election, all of which have validity.

But the real point is that that the issues don't matter. They never have. If elections were only about the issues, then Reagan never should have beaten Carter in 1980. Nixon should never have won anything. Clinton should never have been elected third grade class secretary, let alone president of the US. Adlai Stevenson would have beaten Eisenhower in a landslide. Kennedy should have been in jail, not the oval office.

It is all about perception. That's where Kerry needs to improve his lines of attack and defense if he wants to have a better chance to win the election.

[GSTamral]

PB, you shouldn't forget to add that Kerry's political mentor was the one who got us in Vietnam. so he was taught by someone who thinks like Bush.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by GSTamral
...while Kerry, who BLOCKED legislation in 2001 to continue research in hydroelectric power now talks about using it as a renewable energy source (yet another of his vaunted flip-flops).

You've made this claim several times now. It would be interesting to see a link to the exact legislation so we can see exactly what it says and what other riders were attached to the bill and what other clauses there were.

We've already seen how his voting record can be distorted such as in the case of the body armor that consisted of less than 1% of the total package of what he voted against.

Raven

[Edited on 10-20-2004 by Ravenstorm]

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
OMG I can't wait for this election to be over! Maybe afterwards people will stop being so snarly with each other over their personal choice for president.

Yeah, let's get back to discussing who's owning who in the dueler's arena. I just avoid topics that I don't have an interest in reading.

Just an interesting off tidbit, CT. Have you ever looked at my mood? Have you ever looked at another conspicuous poster's mood? Not everything is ugly and snarly, it's like arguing over dinner and making up with dessert. :)

[Edited on 10-20-2004 by TheRoseLady]

[DeV]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
OMG I can't wait for this election to be over! Maybe afterwards people will stop being so snarly with each other over their personal choice for president. Welcome to the world of politics. After the election it should be even more interesting around here.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by CrystalTears
OMG I can't wait for this election to be over! Maybe afterwards people will stop being so snarly with each other over their personal choice for president.

Yeah, let's get back to discussing who's owning who in the dueler's arena. I just avoid topics that I don't have an interest in reading.

Just an interesting off tidbit, CT. Have you ever looked at my mood? Have you ever looked at another conspicuous poster's mood? Not everything is ugly and snarly, it's like arguing over dinner and making up with dessert. :)

[Edited on 10-20-2004 by TheRoseLady]

That's why I included "over their personal choice for president". Nothing that has been said in these threads affects how I like anyone around here. I still like you all. I just don't like the tone that the political conversations have been. Not just here, everywhere I look where politics are being discussed. Kerry supporters posting such angry and nasty things to Bush supporters, calling them morons, swearing that Kerry is the best, it's just hurtful. Not sure exactly why I got involved in these things for this election. I usually steer clear of them. I guess I was tired of hearing so much bashing of the president that doesn't deserve it this much. Oh well.

[Prestius]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Prestius
Seriously .. are all conservatives as purposefully insulting when they can't argue rationally?

Basically I laid out a long list of reasons why Bush is an incompetent President. What did I get? Insult laced comments about my understanding of the election process. Nothing directly discussing or refuting the points I made.

Thanks PB .. you really do lift the discourse. The Republican Party must be proud to have you in its ranks. As much as I enjoy a good intelligent political discussion, most conversations with you seen to be none of the above.

-P

You really didn't say.. can't argue rationally.. did you? YOU are the one that claimed Bush stole the election.. that the Supreme Court wrongly put him into power.

Talk about your bullshit rational. Come on Prestius.. you can do better than "Boo hoo.. look at me.. PB made me look like a dumbass and now I'm going to cry".

Next time you want to argue stuff based on facts.. bring some facts.

Thanks.

Yes yes PB. Thanks again for keeping the insults up! Makes me realize that you have absolutely zero points to make.

You're the one who tossed out the "democrats fucked up because Kerry is the most Liberal senator" rhetoric (which, BTW sounds really great to people who dislike liberals but is actually not true). I merely responded in kind with the same type of rhetoric. Or is that too nuanced for you? Actually ..I'd really like this to be more of a "NewsHour" discussion rather than a "Fox News" discussion - so - I'll try to keep some civility here, but "boo-hoo"? I haven't heard that used in an adult discussion tactic since ... well .. ever!

As for facts .. you know I laid out a big list of accusations about Bush. You want to have a shot at those?

And .. to the actual point of this thread Tamral. I think these numbers are all suspect for one very important reason: Most of these polls query "likely voters" or "registered voters". - which is a sampling group based as much on "black science" as anything else. In fact the reason why you see such variances in the numbers is because of how the different polling organizations defines these grous. And .. all indications are that there are record numbers of new voters registering which are not typically counted in the "likely voters" group.

This may come back to haunt me later, but my prediction is that one side or the other - when it's all said and done, the pollsters are going to be waaay off the mark on this election.

-P

I definatly voted for Mitt Romney and know a bunch of people that did as well. He'd have a lot of luck if he wasn't blocked at every turn by the liberals up there. Either way, if he runs for President, then he'll have my vote. That's for sure.

- Arkans

[Back]

Also, about those polls...

They use landlines to make those calls. Quite a few groups of people are not being represented in these polls. Those of us without landline phones. Those of us who refuse polls. Those of us who refuse to answer the phone if we don’t recognize the number, and so on.

I agree with Prestius. The last three PC polls have Kerry in what would be a landslide. Bush and his team have done the best smear job I’ve ever seen. I especially like the new “he is using scare tactics” turnaround.

[xtc]

I don't think the PC poll is very accurate. What is the average age of the people here? I doubt we are an accurate reflection of America. How many people here voted in the poll that are too young to vote in the election? How many people voted here that aren't US citizens?

I did see an article in today's Toronto Star saying that phone polls may longer be accurate as 8 Million Americans currently have no land line and pollsters don't call cell phones. Also with the advent of caller ID etc many younger & urban people don't answer the phone leaving the pollsters talking to more rural & older people who are more likely Bush supporters.

However the The Toronto Star is very left leaning to the point many Torontonians call it the The Red Star. The paper has never missed an opportunity to bash Bush as well.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1098222610710&call_pag eid=968332188854&col=968350060724

[Prestius]

Originally posted by Backlash
I especially like the new “he is using scare tactics” turnaround.

CARROLL, Ohio (Oct. 20) - Vice President Dick Cheney on Tuesday raised the possibility of terrorists bombing U.S. cities with nuclear weapons and questioned whether Sen. John Kerry could combat such an "ultimate threat ... you've got to get your mind around.''

[DeV]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
That's why I included "over their personal choice for president". Nothing that has been said in these threads affects how I like anyone around here. I still like you all. I just don't like the tone that the political conversations have been. Not just here, everywhere I look where politics are being discussed. Kerry supporters posting such angry and nasty things to Bush supporters, calling them morons, swearing that Kerry is the best, it's just hurtful. Not sure exactly why I got involved in these things for this election. I usually steer clear of them. I guess I was tired of hearing so much bashing of the president that doesn't deserve it this much. Oh well. You grew tired of hearing a president bashed that doesn't deserve it? Please do tell why he doesn't deserve to be bashed.
Bush almost had my vote however upon the realization that he is probably the most deceitful president in history put a damper on any tidbit of respect I've had for this administration. I haven't felt the need to resort to throwing insults around but I can honestly say when the political discussions primarily began I saw alot of mud being slung on either side. This is what you'll find in a politically charged atmosphere. I'm glad there is this much discourse and debate because it means people are opening their eyes and not taking everything they read, see or are told, at face value.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by xtc
Also with the advent of caller ID etc many younger & urban people don't answer the phone leaving the pollsters talking to more rural & older people who are more likely Bush supporters.Uh, there are plenty of people in the stix that have caller ID. Let's not get elitist.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by xtc
Also with the advent of caller ID etc many younger & urban people don't answer the phone leaving the pollsters talking to more rural & older people who are more likely Bush supporters.Uh, there are plenty of people in the stix that have caller ID. Let's not get elitist.

I was quoting the article

[peam]

Number this...

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

[xtc]

Interesting link as we should all know from the 2000 election it isn't the popular vote that matters

[Latrinsorm]

Someone got chop-happy.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Someone got chop-happy.

wow did they ever

[TheRoseLady]

So don't we get some sort of notification that we have had posts removed? I can't even begin to think of what was here that was so horrendous that made someone edit.

Maybe Psykos was right afterall.

[xtc]

Damn we all got censored, I guess this isn't a free speech zone.

[CrystalTears]

Huh? What posts?

[Warriorbird]

...

[DeV]

I was wondering that too xtc. Thought I was losing it for a minute.

[Warriorbird]

Wonder who it was... or if the server is messing up.

[Parkbandit]

Demerit system doesn't start until 11/1/04.. so maybe I got away with it!

[Back]

The GOP must have gotten nervous about the information in this thread.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash
The GOP must have gotten nervous about the information in this thread.

BLEEDING HEART LIBERAL!

Dear MOD.. I mean Bleeding Heart Liberal in the nicest of ways and do not mean to hurt Backlash's feelings.

I can't imagine what was so necessary to be cut out of this thread.. but I'm sure we'll get a reason shortly.

Censorship really really irritates me...

[Wezas]

Thank god VA is coming around.

A week ago Kerry was 6 points down, now he's only 3.

[Sean]

Off the record I'm fairly sure its a server side issue as no posts have been reported to have been deleted and this isn't the 1st thread people have been complaining about the issue.

Lets not jump on a censorship bandwagon please.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Tijay
Lets not jump on a censorship minivan please.

Pwned, guess who's drivin?

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by Tijay
Lets not jump on a censorship minivan please.

Pwned, guess who's drivin?

:lol:

You crack me up.

[Ravenstorm]

I'm going to say that it was almost certainly something with the server and not a mod, admin, etc. I'm missing a post on another thread as well so it's certain it's not just moderation of this one thread. Further, on my last visit here right before the thread lost everything, I noticed that I was the only one listed as being logged on. Not even a single guest. It struck me how unusual that was.

Raven

[Edited on 10-20-2004 by Ravenstorm]

[Latrinsorm]

Right before everything vanished (which, incidentally, was right before I was about to PWN everything) I got the classic "empty pages into infinity". Naturally, I expected it was the Democratic Shadow Government using an old vampire trick on me, so I kept my mouth shut until now.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by Tijay
Lets not jump on a censorship minivan please.

Pwned, guess who's drivin?

I've never hated you more.. in a non-life threatening way.