Shrinking Civil Rights

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Woman arrested after interrupting Laura Bush speech (http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-09-16-laura-bush-speech_x.htm?csp=36)


HAMILTON, N.J. (AP) — A woman wearing a T-shirt with the words "President Bush You Killed My Son" and a picture of a soldier killed in Iraq was detained Thursday after she interrupted a campaign speech by First lady Laura Bush.

Fascist much? Fucking stupid hippy protesters need a good dose of bootleather. WTF is “defiant trespass?”

I think parents of soldiers should learn to realize that their children are grown men and women who made a choice with their life. Especially those who got paid through college to be in the Army.

[Parkbandit]

I never understood the need of idiots going to speeches from a candidate they are not voting for simply to "protest" and disrupt the speech.

[BigWorm]

Ff someone was speaking on the opposite side of an issue you felt VERY strongly about and you felt they were spreading misinformation, wouldn't you want to protest and disrupt them?

I don't mean to justify her actions, but atleast try to see where she's coming from.

[Jazuela]

she demanded to know why her son, Army 1st Lt. Seth Dvorin, 24, was killed in Iraq. Dvorin died in February while trying to disarm a bomb.

Am I missing something here, or did she answer her own question? He died - because he was trying to disarm a bomb.

It's just one of those things that, y'know, happen sometimes. Try to disarm a bomb and miss, you might just find yourself dead.

On the whole protest issue - most of you wouldn't have been born yet when Kent State protesters ended up in a fierce battle against the Ohio National Guard. It happened on my 9th birthday, May 4, 1970, shortly after Nixon announced the incursion of US and South Vietnamese soldiers against Cambodia. Four students died after setting the ROTC building on fire the previous day and were throwing rocks and shouting taunts to the guards the following day. When they refused to disperse, the guard forcibly dispersed them with tear gas - and some with firearms.

This set off a rash of protests throughout the college community country-wide for the next two weeks. Some resulted in violence and several people were killed.

This was WAR. War of citizens against the government. What that woman Susan Neiderer did at First Lady Bush's "teaparty" was nothing. Not a damned thing. She made some noise and got hauled away. Big whoop - not even worth mentioning.

What saddens me more, was that the issue (her son dying in a pointless war, from her perspective of things) had no support from others in the crowd. That there wasn't a huge outcry - that the only huge outcry currently is done mostly in the press. And that people think this is how "big deal" protests are done.

It probably won't even be a blip in US history. Kent State, however, will never be forgotten by anyone who was cognizant of the world at that time - and will remain as a black spot in the history books for many generations to come.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I never understood the need of idiots going to speeches from a candidate they are not voting for simply to "protest" and disrupt the speech.

Doesnt the US espouse the view that there should be freedom of speech?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I never understood the need of idiots going to speeches from a candidate they are not voting for simply to "protest" and disrupt the speech.

Doesnt the US espouse the view that there should be freedom of speech?

Freedom of speech is one thing.. but is it really necessary to go to a place where someone is giving a speech, where your only motive is to disrupt the speech? What about the speaker's right to free speech?

I have the right to bear arms as well.. but I can't bring a gun to the airport or many buildings. BOO FUCKING HOO! THEY ARE TAKING AWAY ONE OF MY RIGHTS!

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Freedom of speech is one thing.. but is it really necessary to go to a place where someone is giving a speech, where your only motive is to disrupt the speech? What about the speaker's right to free speech?

I have the right to bear arms as well.. but I can't bring a gun to the airport or many buildings. BOO FUCKING HOO! THEY ARE TAKING AWAY ONE OF MY RIGHTS!

Another shit analogy brought to you from the regulars of the PC forums. :clap:
Taking a gun to an airport affects other people's safety.
Someone having a dissenting voice is a positive aspect of a democracy. If speakers want to have an audience where noone dissents, then they need to be very selective about the people they let in. If it is a public event, then they should expect people to come and tell them how shit their views are. Especially if they are from government or something like that and the people on the street have no other access to these people except for the public speeches they are giving. Part of the territory.

I'm all for people going along to make their point.

[Chadj]

Every time I read something that even remotely relates to 9/11, I just wanna tell them to STFU.

I don't mean to be insensitive, because I know it was terrible... I admit, I didn't lose anyone to that tragedy, but regardless, give it right the fuck up already. Making it a point, or even a major point, on a platform is one thing.. but mentioning it 1908570932865107121756098734628590648107564980 isn't exactly needed. It pisses me off.

/rant

Oh, and the person who was all "OMG I LOST A SON" is a heartbroken mother. Cut her some slack. Although I agree with everyone that what she did wasn't really needed or right; it should be up to her. Free speech and all that shit.

Edited for clarification.



[Edited on 9-18-2004 by Chadj]

[Nieninque]

Of course she should

[Scott]

Kind of like this stuff at the Kerry convention:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=1963&e=18&u=/ap/20040918/ap_on_el_pr/rally_ruckus

In both cases the people are idiots. The woman for blaming Bush for her son being dead and trying to interupt a speech. The guy for being an idiot bringing his kids to a rally and trying to disrupt the whole thing.

If you want to have a counter rally do it the legal way. There are regulations for this. You just cna't go and disrupt speeches. Glad she got hauled away, she broke the law.

- Arkans

To correct spelling

[Edited on 9-18-2004 by Arkans]

[Blazing247]

You CAN do a lot of things in this country. Should you? Obviously not. This is a perfect example.

[Tsa`ah]

Lesson: If you're going to protest, make sure you're not alone.

[Straight-up]

<<Oh, and the person who was all "OMG I LOST A SON" is a heartbroken mother. Cut her some slack. Although I agree with everyone that what she did wasn't really needed or right; it should be up to her. Free speech and all that shit. >>


I am all for cutting people slack in lieu of the death of a loved one in the military. I don't feel her protesting and complaining is justified though. Grieving yes. It really pisses me off to see these families who bitch about their loved ones. Grieve, yes...by all means. But you surely don't see these selfsame families bitching about the education their loved ones got or get, the money they are payed and the benefits of being in the uniformed service.

By the same token it really yanks my chain to see these Reservists who say something along the lines of; "But I didn't sign up to go to war!" or "I can't deploy, I have commitments!". Sorry, get the fuck out of the reserves then, and pay back your school funds.

I also think that the services need to increase their pay overall and to dramatically increase the hazardous duty/imminent danger pay. Which I think is 225 dollars a month now.


Straight

[Ilvane]

Maybe her way of dealing with her grief is to protest against the war that her son was killed in.

More power to her.

-A

[Blazing247]

On the issue of the military, I think we need mandatory service as is done in several countries- Israel to name one.

[xtc]

The First Amendmen

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances

I am with Backlash on this one. Civil Rights in the US has been decimated. They have been pushed back hundreds of year before the Magna Carta (1215). The 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th amendment have been thrown out the window.

Laura Bushes first amendment rights weren't trampled she got to speak.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Nieninque
If speakers want to have an audience where noone dissents, then they need to be very selective about the people they let in. In other words, Laura needs to have a chat with her husband.

[Valthissa]

Originally posted by xtc
The First Amendmen

I am with Backlash on this one. Civil Rights in the US has been decimated. They have been pushed back hundreds of year before the Magna Carta (1215). The 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th amendment have been thrown out the window.



It really hurts your argument to make exaggerations like this.

Didn't evertyhing go as one would expect? The lady got her protest in, when she wouldn't stop she was arrested. It's likely she won't spend a minute in jail or pay a fine. The end of civil liberties? please.

C/Valth

[Psykos]

Umm, thats story doesn't have the whole truth and nothing but the truth -- I was at the RNC, and that protestor broke in, and did not have a pass, and where I'm from (USA, Snowdrop) thats trespassing?
:beer:

Lets go hunting and ban abortion! Down with homosexual marriage too! Long live the Republicans.

I agree with blazing. (3rd sign of the apocaylypse)

[Blazing247]

I wouldn't say civil rights have not been decimated in this country. The problem is that in society today, people stretch their rights to the limits. Guess what, you have the right to peaceful assembly, but how many protests stay peaceful? Not many. You have the right to freedom of speech, but how often does that not infringe on another persons same right to freedom of speech? (as we saw with the women who disrupted Laura Bush's speech). Not often. I am making a bold assumption, but I would bet that when the Founding Fathers made the blueprints for our nation, they didn't anticipate half of what happens in society today.

They are words on paper, and like any other words, cannot be taken at face value and are subject to some type of historical context in their interpretation. I think they are a great foundation for our nation, but I do not think they are the be-all and end-all for everything. Give people an inch, and they will take a mile. You have to stop it somewhere.

[TheEschaton]

They are words on paper, and like any other words, cannot be taken at face value and are subject to some type of historical context in their interpretation.

Damn....G.W. would call you a "revisionist historian".

Or at least he'd try to. I'm not so sure he can pronounce it.

-TheE-
P.S. I've been to many protests, and I would say they are mostly peaceful. It depends on what you're protesting. Most of the anti-war ones are trying very much to not use the force they see as being unjustly used in Iraq. But the protests I've gone to which WERE "violent" were going to be "violent" (still, I don't think mass civil disobedience is violent, per se, but often it tends to waltz into the area of burning and throwing things as well, which I don't condone) from the beginning. We carried bandanas soaked in vinegar for the tear gas, and wrote the number of Legal Aid in permanent marker on our arms. The irony of it is, those protests are usually against things that work quietly, and unassumingly, and are seemingly inert....like the World Bank, IMF, WTO, G-8, what have you.

[Artha]

It's funny when the PS is longer than the message itself ;)

[xtc]

Originally posted by Valthissa

Originally posted by xtc
The First Amendmen

I am with Backlash on this one. Civil Rights in the US has been decimated. They have been pushed back hundreds of year before the Magna Carta (1215). The 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th amendment have been thrown out the window.



It really hurts your argument to make exaggerations like this.

Didn't evertyhing go as one would expect? The lady got her protest in, when she wouldn't stop she was arrested. It's likely she won't spend a minute in jail or pay a fine. The end of civil liberties? please.

C/Valth

I was talking about the country as a whole. Many sections of the Patriot Act violate the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendment. To be held without charge is to put us back before the Magna Carta. I call this the decimation of civil liberties. I don't just accuse the Repubs, The Dems agreed to the bill as well.

The First amendment has been serious trampled on. Now we have free speech zones. I thought the whol country was a free speech zone.

My argument stands.

[Chadj]

:heart: xtc.

[DeV]

I do agree with the fact that some people, no matter how ridiculous the cause, will stretch the limits of the law. Although I don't condone the actions of this woman, I attribute them to grieving. She made a poor decision. We've also never lost a child , regardless if their sacrifice was willing or not.

[Valthissa]

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Valthissa

Originally posted by xtc
The First Amendmen

I am with Backlash on this one. Civil Rights in the US has been decimated. They have been pushed back hundreds of year before the Magna Carta (1215). The 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th amendment have been thrown out the window.



It really hurts your argument to make exaggerations like this.

Didn't evertyhing go as one would expect? The lady got her protest in, when she wouldn't stop she was arrested. It's likely she won't spend a minute in jail or pay a fine. The end of civil liberties? please.

C/Valth

I was talking about the country as a whole. Many sections of the Patriot Act violate the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendment. To be held without charge is to put us back before the Magna Carta. I call this the decimation of civil liberties. I don't just accuse the Repubs, The Dems agreed to the bill as well.

The First amendment has been serious trampled on. Now we have free speech zones. I thought the whol country was a free speech zone.

My argument stands.

I don't know what else to say.

If you seriously believe that civil liberties in the U.S. approach even the conditions of the U.S. 1950's (you may have heard that a whole race was without basic rights, much less the freedoms we enjoy today) you are beyond reason. Maybe we can agree on that the Patriot Act isn't a good law.

C/Valth

[Back]

The whole point of this post was about how one lone woman voiced her opinion to her peers, and was arrested for it.

Check how many people who disrupted non-Bush speeches were arrested and you’ll see what I’m getting at.

Don’t forget to vote.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by xtc
Now we have free speech zones. I thought you were from Canada? What's this "we" business?

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Backlash
The whole point of this post was about how one lone woman voiced her opinion to her peers, and was arrested for it.

At least she actually said something. People have been arrested at public Bush events just for wearing anti-Bush tee shirts.

Raven

[Nieninque]

Thats progress

[HarmNone]

Heh. Yup. Dubya is a progressive sorta guy. :rolleyes:

HarmNone, not fond of the shrub

[Back]

Originally posted by xtc
I was talking about the country as a whole. Many sections of the Patriot Act violate the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendment. To be held without charge is to put us back before the Magna Carta. I call this the decimation of civil liberties. I don't just accuse the Repubs, The Dems agreed to the bill as well.

Had the pleasure to see the Magna Carta (http://www.bl.uk/collections/treasures/magna.html) once as we stopped through Salisbury (http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=400000.716871629&Y=1000 00.6768783&width=500&height=300&gride=414494.71687 1629&gridn=129961.6768783&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=fr eegaz&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&lo calinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&zm=1&scale=4 000000) on the way to Stonehenge (http://www.esonet.org/pinacoteca/scenari/stonehenge.jpg). If you haven’t been, they keep it in a small circular well-lit brick room in Salisbury Cathedral (http://www.snowder.com/earth/england/cathedral.html). Some bricks have sculpted faces that peer towards the document.

You can see man’s quest for “freedom” from medieval times. You can go way back further and see the same quest in The Vedas.

Even Mark 16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar016.html).

[Artha]

HarmNone, not fond of the shrub

People who make fun of someone's name lose credibility fast.

[Ilvane]

Well, she could have said

'HarmNone..not fond of the Bush".

There, is that better? :heart:

-A :lol2:

[Artha]

Yes.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by Artha

HarmNone, not fond of the shrub

People who make fun of someone's name lose credibility fast.

Heh. The Shrub is my nickname for dear old Dubya, Artha. I needn't make fun of the name when the owner of said name makes himself such an easy target. ;)

HarmNone, finding it amusing that Artha is troubled by someone making fun of someone else's name....:rofl:

[Artha]

Oh, ok then.

[Tsa`ah]

I dislike Bush so much I removed mine.

See below for details

[Artha]

I only disagree with some of his policies, so I guess I'll just keep it trimmed.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by xtc
Now we have free speech zones. I thought you were from Canada? What's this "we" business?

I live in Canada but I am a US citizen and Canadian citizen

[Edited on 9-19-2004 by xtc]

[Keller]

It probably won't even be a blip in US history. Kent State, however, will never be forgotten by anyone who was cognizant of the world at that time - and will remain as a black spot in the history books for many generations to come.

What's even worse is that people don't even know about Jackson State. Same deal as Kent State, same time, same reason. However -- the kids were black. Makes you think sometimes.

[Caiylania]

Thinking is good, if only more people did it. (Not referring to anyone here, just a comment.)