Do as I say not as I do?

[Ravenstorm]

Is that going to be the stance the US takes when it comes to Russia?

Russia and terrorism (http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=58 5743&section=news)

I'm just waiting for Russia to attack and/or invade another country with the justification that it's a war on terrorism just like the US has done. So and so is a threat to our national security! And America won't have a leg to stand on in decrying their actions.

Thoughts?

Raven

[Latrinsorm]

They wouldn't really be invading another country, though. It'd be like Canada invading Quebec.

I'm confused what you're referring to with "that", though. We said we denounced the Chechnyans, the Russians said we're helping them.

[Ravenstorm]

Who's to say the Russians will be satisfied with Checnya? Bush went after Iraq when they weren't at all involved in 9/11.

Raven

[Chyrain]

well perhaps russia will join forces with the US in a more productive way to rid terrorism of all kinds, in the middle east or eastern Europe...wherever.

[DeV]

The Russian military is no better than the Chechen terrorists.

[Back]

I like Chyrain’s answer.

America set a very dangerous precedent with the Iraq war. To this day it astounds me that we said “fuck the UN” then went in because of unenforced UN resolutions even though Iraq didn’t break them? Anyway...

Premptive war is like me shooting my neighbor for suspecting he has something he wants to kill me with even if he doesn’t.

[Latrinsorm]

Backlash, if I may expound upon your analogy: A guy walks by your cousin, every day, and says "I have a gun. I'm going to shoot you if you mess with me." As he does so, he brandishes a pistol, let's say a .45. Your cousin begins to get nervous (naturally), and goes to the cops. They try to search the guy's house, but he has a slick lawyer that ties the whole thing up in red tape. You're hanging out with your cousin, and the guy walks up with a bulge in his coat pocket, shouting something about how your cousin ran over his dog.

Would you restrain/shoot/tackle the guy, or would you wait until you saw the gun?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I'd waste the mo fo.

[Back]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Backlash, if I may expound upon your analogy: A guy walks by your cousin, every day, and says "I have a gun. I'm going to shoot you if you mess with me." As he does so, he brandishes a pistol, let's say a .45. Your cousin begins to get nervous (naturally), and goes to the cops. They try to search the guy's house, but he has a slick lawyer that ties the whole thing up in red tape. You're hanging out with your cousin, and the guy walks up with a bulge in his coat pocket, shouting something about how your cousin ran over his dog.

Would you restrain/shoot/tackle the guy, or would you wait until you saw the gun?

This is why I loath hypotheticals. Would, could, if, should... none of it means a damn thing unless it happens.

You expounded waaaay to far on my simple example. My example.

Subject=Bush
Neighbor=Saddam
Object to kill with=WMDs

I believe if that SHM would end up in jail by his answer. Which I understand would be frustrating. But in this great country of ours people are innocent until proven guilty.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Backlash, if I may expound upon your analogy: A guy walks by your cousin, every day, and says "I have a gun. I'm going to shoot you if you mess with me." As he does so, he brandishes a pistol, let's say a .45. Your cousin begins to get nervous (naturally), and goes to the cops. They try to search the guy's house, but he has a slick lawyer that ties the whole thing up in red tape. You're hanging out with your cousin, and the guy walks up with a bulge in his coat pocket, shouting something about how your cousin ran over his dog.

Would you restrain/shoot/tackle the guy, or would you wait until you saw the gun?

Actually, in this country, you'd better hope to hell that bulge IS a .45 and not a big bottle of aspirin. Otherwise, you're going to end up in the slammer if you restrain/shoot/tackle the guy. If it is, in fact, a .45 you'd best be sure it's out of his pocket and in his hand when the cops arrive. ;)

HarmNone

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Actually, in this country, you'd better hope to hell that bulge IS a .45 and not a big bottle of aspirin. Otherwise, you're going to end up in the slammer if you restrain/shoot/tackle the guy.That's why I'm not a judge, Harm. There's what's legal, and there's what's moral. I'm going to be sticking to the moral side. Obviously I wouldn't shoot the guy, but that's a different argument for a different time.

The reason I expounded, Backlash, was because I felt your example didn't adequately portray the situation. Mine doesn't either (the major flaw being Saddam didn't shout anything), but I think it's closer.

[HarmNone]

So, am I to understand, Latrinsorm, that you feel it is more moral to jump a guy because of what he says, coupled with a bulge in his pocket, than to wait until you are actually threatened with bodily harm by this person? Interesting perspective.

HarmNone, really finding this discussion interesting :)

[Back]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
That's why I'm not a judge, Harm. There's what's legal, and there's what's moral. I'm going to be sticking to the moral side. Obviously I wouldn't shoot the guy, but that's a different argument for a different time.

Doesn’t this make you an anarchist? To say you will do whatever you feel like depite the law of the government?


The reason I expounded, Backlash, was because I felt your example didn't adequately portray the situation. Mine doesn't either (the major flaw being Saddam didn't shout anything), but I think it's closer.

It wasn’t the shouting that threw me...

Subject=Bush
Cousin=?
A guy=Saddam
the guy’s house=Iraq
Slick lawyer=?
.45=WMDs
Dog=?
Police=UN

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I'd waste Harmnone for being a pacifist.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
I'd waste Harmnone for being a pacifist.

Hee! You'd have to catch me first, SHM! We pacifists can run like the wind! :D

HarmNone, duckin' and dodgin' and runnin' like the wind

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Ah, I'm kidding, both my posts. I'm in a very odd mood today as I pack up my desk and belongings. Please, continue your discusion without my sarcastic and nonsense remarks :)

[Blazing247]

Gee, this debate again? I guess it's been a whole three hours since we talked about the war in Iraq, after all. Keep talking, someone will win this debate eventually. :yawn:

[Ravenstorm]

Actually, this has to do with Russia and their declaration that they will now pre-emptively attack any terrorists it decides pose a threat to it. And as it's a fair assumption that Russia is perhaps just a bit more militaristic and imperialistic than the US (even under the rule of Bush and the neo-cons), it doesn't seem very far-fetched to believe that they will attack another country that had nothing to do with the tragedy that just happened (sound familiar?).

And how will the US respond? We are the example they will be following. We set the precedent. That's really the topic.

Raven

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by HarmNone
So, am I to understand, Latrinsorm, that you feel it is more moral to jump a guy because of what he says, coupled with a bulge in his pocket, than to wait until you are actually threatened with bodily harm by this person?I find guns threatening. It depends on the cousin I'm talking to, honestly (some of them are a little iffy).
Originally posted by Backlash
Doesn’t this make you an anarchist?I'm not big on labels, but the description you provided doesn't fit. It's not what I feel like, it's what Jesus told me is right. I love America, but not as much as I love Jesus.

Cousin = Kuwait, more or less.
Lawyer = Saddam's ability to stall the U.N.
Dog = Part of the (made-up) shouting category.

p.s: I'm sorry for being off-topic, Raven, but I don't know anything about Russia (aside from Maria Sharapova being hot). I know how I would respond, though. It would go something like: "Bad Russia! Bad!"

[HarmNone]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by HarmNone
So, am I to understand, Latrinsorm, that you feel it is more moral to jump a guy because of what he says, coupled with a bulge in his pocket, than to wait until you are actually threatened with bodily harm by this person?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I find guns threatening. It depends on the cousin I'm talking to, honestly (some of them are a little iffy).
_______

But, Latrinsorm, all you have seen is a guy with a bulge in his pocket. You have NOT seen a gun! I think that was the point, eh?

HarmNone, wondering now...what the hell was the point, anyway? :D

[Back]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Originally posted by Backlash
Doesn’t this make you an anarchist?I'm not big on labels, but the description you provided doesn't fit. It's not what I feel like, it's what Jesus told me is right. I love America, but not as much as I love Jesus.[/quote]

Wasn’t Jesus basically an anarchist? But besides that, church and state are two very seperate things. The priests do not rule America. So, by definition, to not recognize our laws, you are an anarchist. If everyone was like you, acting on a belief instead of the laws our government wrote, it would be anarchy. No matter what the cause of the belief system is.

You can’t really see my side on this unfortunately.

I know you are a law abiding citizen, Latrin, and a good guy. The examples we are discussing are just an exercise in Socratic dialog which hopefully helps us understand a little more.

[Edited on 9-17-2004 by Backlash]

[HarmNone]

Your point is well taken, Backlash. Timothy McVeigh felt he was justified in killing all those people because it was "right" according to his principles and beliefs. Talk about a slippery slope!

HarmNone knows Latrinsorm is not to be compared to Timothy McVeigh

[Atlanteax]

The US is likely going to allow Russia to return to Georgia so that it can destroy the Chechens...

... and the US will look the other way, in return for Russia sending troops/aid to Iraq.

.

That's my bet what will happen. Both the US and Russia will get what they want... (which is the point).

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Backlash
You can’t really see my side on this unfortunately.I tried to, honest. Here's what I came up with: My strongest argument for sticking to Christian morals vs. American laws is that Christian morals by definition entail pacifism and sacrifice. Not, say, blowing up buildings, HARMNONE :cry:. ;) And a lot of people seem to like the philosophy of "do whatever you like that doesn't hurt anyone".