Manipulation Lore and 1002 Testing

[Whirlin]

So, I have 0 manipulation lore. I just started hunting Wyneb in Illistim, and I noticed fairly consistently that the required endroll for explosion of weapons is 150, for both heirophants and supplicants. Which leads me to believe there is no direct level correlation between the Endroll required, and the result.

However, even in the 1002 log, there are records of endrolls in the 140s resulting in weapon explosions. Per documentation, this is due to Manipulation Lore training.

The correlation between Manipulation Lore and required Endroll is currently unknown.

The ask! If you have any manipulation lore training, could you please post your manipulation lore ranks, and the endroll required for weapon explosions from 1002?

[Riltus]

The ask! If you have any manipulation lore training, could you please post your manipulation lore ranks, and the endroll required for weapon explosions from 1002?

Testing w/o any status effects or previous disarming affecting the outcomes.

Char level: 11
CS: 62
ML Lore, Manipulation: 25 bonus (5 ranks)
Minimum shattering: ER 142

ML Lore, Manipulation: 50 bonus (10 ranks)
Minimum shattering: ER 138

Minimum ERs are reduced depending on other factors. Could be stuns or injuries - not certain.

This was with 50 bonus (10 ranks):

You weave another verse into your harmony, directing the sound of your voice at a greater burrow orc.
CS: +62 - TD: +24 + CvA: +17 + d100: +99 == +154
Warding failed!
You focus your voice on a greater burrow orc's wooden shield with perfect resonance, causing it to shatter into thousands of tiny pieces!
... 20 points of damage!
Blow to the eye swells it shut!
The burrow orc is stunned!
Sing Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>l orc
You see a fairly typical burrow orc.
She has deep lacerations across her chest, deep lacerations across her abdomen and a blinded right eye.
She is stunned.
She has a short sword and some double leather (worn).
>pre 1002cast orcYou change your tune slightly, adding the element for Vibration Chant to your song...
Your spellsong is ready.
>You weave another verse into your harmony, directing the sound of your voice at a greater burrow orc.
CS: +62 - TD: +24 + CvA: +17 + d100: +64 == +119
Warding failed!
You focus your voice on a greater burrow orc's short sword with perfect resonance, causing it to shatter into thousands of tiny pieces!
... 20 points of damage!
Good blow to right hand!


Mark

[Whirlin]

Somehow I think Mark just happens to have a whole series of low level characters, and notifications enabled whenever someone has the word "test" in the title!

I'll test to see if I can find a correlation between stunned condition and required endroll with 0 manipulation when I get to hunting tonight. But that was pretty surprisingly quick diminishing returns, which implies that the equation is based off a seed formula. However, it doesn't appear that any seed function would satisfy those results, unless we took Seed 2... but the documentation states that there are bonuses at a single rank of manipulation.

Or I can speculate off of a single datapoint, that's awesome.

[Riltus]

It could also be a base of 3% with 1% reduction for each rank.

Edited to add:

Stunned status lowers the threshold. Freshly genned creature stunned with 505 and no injuries.

>You weave another verse into your harmony, directing the sound of your voice at a lesser orc.
CS: +62 - TD: +18 + CvA: +19 + d100: +61 == +124
Warding failed!
You focus your voice on a lesser orc's wooden shield with perfect resonance, causing it to shatter into thousands of tiny pieces!

Mark

[ThatDamnTep]

For what it's worth, I think I remember the first 15 ranks of manipulation lore lowering the 150 base chance by 1 each on an uninjured target.

[Riltus]

With 66 skill (14 ranks)

>You weave another verse into your harmony, directing the sound of your voice at a phantom.
CS: +62 - TD: +6 + CvA: +20 + d100: +59 == +135
Warding failed!
You focus your voice on the phantom's dagger, shaking its grip on it until the dagger falls to the ground.

>You weave another verse into your harmony, directing the sound of your voice at a phantom.
CS: +62 - TD: +6 + CvA: +20 + d100: +60 == +136
Warding failed!
You focus your voice on a phantom's dagger with perfect resonance, causing it to shatter into thousands of tiny pieces!

Summary:

5 bonus (1 rank): ER 147
10 bonus (2 ranks): ER 146
15 bonus (3 ranks): ER 144
25 bonus (5 ranks): ER 142
50 bonus (10 ranks): ER 138
66 bonus (14 ranks): ER 136

Stunned status looks to be a -20 to endroll threshold.

Mark

[Riltus]

Tentative formula up to 20 ranks

ML, Manipulation effect on 1002's minimum endroll for shattering weapons/shields.

Lore provides a base reduction of 2 plus

Ranks 1 to 5: -1.20 per rank (total -6)
Ranks 6 to 10: -0.80 per rank (total -4)
Ranks 11 to 15: -0.60 per rank (total -3)
Ranks 16 to 20: -0.40 per rank total -2)
Ranks 21 to 25: -0.40 per rank total -2)


Lore Ranks|Minimum ER|Per rank reduction|Calculation
0|150|-|-
1|147|1.2| (150 - 2 - 1.2) = 146.8
2|146|1.2|(150 - 2 - 2.4) = 145.6
3|144|1.2|(150 - 2 - 3.6) = 144.4
4|143|1.2|(150 - 2 - 4.8) = 143.2
5|142|1.2|(150 - 2 - 6) = 142
||
6|141|0.8|(150 - 2 - 6 - 0.8) = 141.2
7|140|0.8|(150 - 2 - 6 - 1.6) = 140.4
8|140|0.8|(150 - 2 - 6 - 2.4) = 139.6
9|139|0.8|(150 - 2 - 6 - 3.2) = 138.8
10|138|0.8|(150 - 2 - 6.0 - 4) = 138
||
11|137|0.6|(150 - 2 - 6 - 4 - 0.6) = 137.4
12|137|0.6|(150 - 2 - 6 - 4 - 1.2) = 136.8
13|136|0.6|(150 - 2 - 6 - 4 - 2.4) = 136.2
14|136|0.6|(150 - 2 - 6 - 4 - 2.4) = 135.6
15|135|0.6|(150 - 2 - 6 - 4 - 3) = 135
||
16|135|0.4|(150 - 2 - 6 - 4 - 3 - 0.4) = 134.6
17|134|0.4|(150 - 2 - 6 - 4 - 3 - 0.8) = 134.2
18|134|0.4|(150 - 2 - 6 - 4 - 3 - 1.2) = 133.8
19|133|0.4|(150 - 2 - 6 - 4 - 3 - 1.6) = 133.4
20|133|0.4|(150 - 2 - 6 - 4 - 3 - 2) = 133]
||
21|133|0.4|(150 - 2 - 6 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 0.4) = 132.6
22|132|0.4|(150 - 2 - 6 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 0.8) = 132.2
23|132|0.4|(150 - 2 - 6 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1.2) = 131.8
24|131|0.4|(150 - 2 - 6 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1.6) = 131.4
25|131|0.4|(150 - 2 - 6 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 2) = 131


1. Use conventional rounding
2. A stunned target further reduces the minimum ER by 20


Mark

[Whirlin]

So... that makes you, the best person ever.

I just want to verify with a pure bard to determine if there's a cap. Theoretically, based on that trending, it would be 132 at 25 ranks.

Definitely validates getting 5 ranks in Manipulation, even for a polearm or sword/shield build. It's more efficient than straight Bard circle training for CS. And while there are other bonuses associated with Bard Ranks, from an opener perspective, an 8 treshold pushdown from 5 ranks is very significant.

[Danical]

I just want to verify with a pure bard to determine if there's a cap.

I can check when I get home. I had 75 ranks of Manip. I do recall Mestys saying there are fairly steep diminishing returns.

As always, well done Mark.

[Anebriated]

I had a 144 endroll earlier... almost.

[Anebriated]

Mental Lore - Manipulation.........| 175 75

You weave another verse into your harmony, directing the sound of your voice at a grizzled Ithzir herald.
CS: +472 - TD: +413 + CvA: +9 + d100: +61 == +129
Warding failed!
You focus your voice on a grizzled Ithzir herald's silvery blade with perfect resonance, causing it to shatter into thousands of tiny pieces!
... 25 points of damage!
Blow connects with abdomen.
Sing Roundtime 3 Seconds.


You weave another verse into your harmony, directing the sound of your voice at a grizzled Ithzir herald.
CS: +472 - TD: +423 + CvA: +9 + d100: +63 == +121
Warding failed!
You focus your voice on a grizzled Ithzir herald's steel shield with perfect resonance, causing it to shatter into thousands of tiny pieces!
... 25 points of damage!
Blow grazes right arm lightly.
Sing Roundtime 3 Seconds.

[Whirlin]

Tentative formula up to 15 ranks

ML, Manipulation effect on 1002's minimum endroll for shattering weapons/shields.

Lore provides a base reduction of 2 plus

Ranks 1 to 5: -1.20 per rank (total -6)
Ranks 6 to 10: -0.80 per rank (total -4)
Ranks 11 to 15: -0.60 per rank (total -3)

1. Use conventional rounding
2. A stunned target further reduces the minimum ER by 20


Mark

With a 121 unstunned resulting in explosion, we can at least make one assumption about Mark's equation.

Very conservatively, to get a 121 endroll explosion at 25 ranks, we're looking at the pattern changing for ranks above 15.

One Option would be ranks 16-25 resulting in -.4
26 onward yielding -.2.

I don't think the equation stays at .4 indefinitely, as that would result in required endrolls of 80 at the theoretical maximum ranks of 152. Whereas a drop to .2 would result in a 106 required endroll at 152 ranks.

So, I'll raise that as the current hypothesis for testing once we get more data.

[Riltus]

With a 121 unstunned resulting in explosion, we can at least make one assumption about Mark's equation.

Very conservatively, to get a 121 endroll explosion at 25 ranks, we're looking at the pattern changing for ranks above 15.

One Option would be ranks 16-25 resulting in -.4
26 onward yielding -.2.

I don't think the equation stays at .4 indefinitely, as that would result in required endrolls of 80 at the theoretical maximum ranks of 152. Whereas a drop to .2 would result in a 106 required endroll at 152 ranks.

So, I'll raise that as the current hypothesis for testing once we get more data.

At least aesthetically, if we consider 100 ranks -

Confirmed:
Ranks 1 to 5: -1.20 per rank (total -6) ER 142
Ranks 6 to 10: -0.80 per rank (total -4) ER 138
Ranks 11 to 15: -0.60 per rank (total -3) ER 135

Hypothetical:
Ranks 16 to 100: -0.40 per rank (total - 34) ER 101

100% success with 99/100 ranks

With this diminishing returns pattern, Anebriated (75 ranks) would need a min ER of 111 to shatter items.

Mark

[Whirlin]

So many places we can go!

Just need more data!

[Danical]

I couldn't find any results sub 120 in my logs.

[Whirlin]

I couldn't find any results sub 120 in my logs.
I'm gonna have to run to your hunting ground before you and spell up critters!

[droit]

I'm gonna have to run to your hunting ground before you and spell up critters!

That'd be quite a feat considering he quit like 3+ years ago.

[Whirlin]

That'd be quite a feat considering he quit like 3+ years ago.

... challenge accepted.