runestaff to shield/brawl

[CaptContagious]

so im considering switching my capped human cleric to shield/brawl from runestaff. I have seen a couple builds posted on here but none recently.

if anyone can give me some pointers that would be great. 1x shield and 1 rank in brawling? 1x brawl 1x shield? CM? Dodge? stats were set to max at cap if that helps.

thanks!

[Jeril]

You are capped, I'd just suggest you put your future experience towards that end, first do shield then brawling. You are converting P2M so the tps will come rather quickly. Most people do combat maneuvers soon after capping but leave dodge until they've got most of their magic skills filled in but to each their own.

[Tgo01]

Most people do combat maneuvers soon after capping

I've been wondering about this; why is that? Is it so they can pick up some disarm weapon ranks for some protection against being disarmed?

But if you're a pure spell caster and you don't hunt in an area where critters disarm wouldn't doubling in perception be a lot cheaper than training in CM for defense against critter special attacks? According to Krakiipedia perception and CM are equal in defense against such attacks.

[Jeril]

Well learning combat maneuvers you can also pick up cunning defense, subdual strike, feint, or disarm. And even just learning combat maneuvers helps you defend against them in a small generic way. Learning combat maneuver isn't always about protecting yourself from disarm, there are other things, especially if one is shield/brawl.

[Tgo01]

And even just learning combat maneuvers helps you defend against them in a small generic way. Learning combat maneuver isn't always about protecting yourself from disarm, there are other things, especially if one is shield/brawl.

That's what I'm wondering though; does CM help more to protect against maneuvers (or different maneuvers) than perception? Krakiipedia says they both count equally.

I was just thinking about this last night because I see a lot of people recommend CM after cap but for most (all?) classes it's cheaper to double in perception first than to single in CM. If you're just picking up CM for defense from maneuvers wouldn't getting more perception make sense? Or is there more to CM that I'm missing?

Unless the defense goes by skill bonus instead of ranks. Does anyone know for sure or is this all a big guess for the most part?

[Jeril]

Well there are a couple different things in play, you have CML defense and SMR defense, training in combat maneuvers helps with both, while perception only helps with SMR. Further learning specific combat maneuvers helps defend against those as well as learning cunning defense. People really should be more specific about the type of maneuvers they are speaking about, for most things if you don't see a roll for numbers it is an SMR. Combat maneuvers are easy to spot because of the combat maneuver roll that is standard for all of them. CML stands for Combat Maneuver List and SMR is standard maneuver roll, also called creature maneuvers but that isn't all that it includes.

[Tgo01]

SMRs are the ones that make me cry :(

[Jeril]

SMRs are the ones that make me cry :(

I thought everything made you cry.

[Tgo01]

I thought everything made you cry.

:(

[Buckwheet]

Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 130 35
Shield Use.........................| 201 101
Brawling...........................| 201 101
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Arcane Symbols.....................| 200 100
Magic Item Use.....................| 200 100
Harness Power......................| 212 112
Spirit Mana Control................| 102 24
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 165 65
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 145 45
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 160 60
Climbing...........................| 105 25
Swimming...........................| 140 40

Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 67

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 67

Spell Lists
Cleric.............................| 169


That is my brawling/shield setup post cap and it works just fine for my needs. I just wish I had more mana because I think clerics get pretty screwed in their spell choices to kill things.

[Whirlin]

Well there are a couple different things in play, you have CML defense and SMR defense, training in combat maneuvers helps with both, while perception only helps with SMR. Further learning specific combat maneuvers helps defend against those as well as learning cunning defense. People really should be more specific about the type of maneuvers they are speaking about, for most things if you don't see a roll for numbers it is an SMR. Combat maneuvers are easy to spot because of the combat maneuver roll that is standard for all of them. CML stands for Combat Maneuver List and SMR is standard maneuver roll, also called creature maneuvers but that isn't all that it includes.

Anecdotally... I have found that perception also helped in CML defense. 2x Perception Wizard in offensive has about the CML defense of a 1x perception Sorcerer in Guarded/Defensive. Fairly certain stance plays into CML defense. I'll defer to you on that one Jeril.

But, to reiterate Jeril's point, rank for rank, the two MAY be even, however, once you dedicate the CMAN points to the skill, knowledge of the skill provides a massive bonus to defense.

I was thinking about holding off on more spell research on Whirlin to at least pick up Disarm rank 1... I just recently hit 100 Wizard ranks, so now I just need like... 40 more ranks of MjE. But then measuring the difference in CML disarm rolls between 0 CMAN, 4 ranks CMAN, and 4 Ranks CMAN + 1 rank Disarm.

Going back to the OP's question though, I thought there had been mechanical changes to Brawling defense after the introduction of UAC, and I thought the result was either a single point in brawling to activate the open hand DS, OR only training in shield use.

I feel like I did an analysis of runestaff DS versus Shield defense for Bards in the discussion of sonic runestaves... Let me see if I can pull up that post.

[Jeril]

You do only need 1 rank to unlock the parry DS but you still get .2 DS in offensive per rank of brawling, which nets you roughly 20 DS in offensive and 70 in defensive for maxing it out as a pure.

And yes, stance does play a role in how well you defend against combat maneuvers, however without any combat maneuver training if there is a difference it isn't very large that I've noticed.

[Lady Sylvan]

I cant even imagine how long it will take to cap Nairena. So you basically keep hunting after you hit 100 and use those points to make your characters more complete.
Its something to think about while sitting in a very quiet Ta'Vaalor. I hate the night shift hehehehe.

Lady Nairena
Mage of Ta'Vaalor
Member of the Eahnor Assembly.

[GuildRat]

Armor Use..........................| 130 35
Shield Use.........................| 174 74
Brawling...........................| 174 74
Physical Fitness...................| 174 74
Arcane Symbols.....................| 150 50
Magic Item Use.....................| 150 50
Harness Power......................| 172 72
Spirit Mana Control................| 140 40
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 62 13
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 167 67
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 96 22
Perception.........................| 173 73
Climbing...........................| 105 25
Swimming...........................| 111 27

Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 40

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 40

Spell Lists
Cleric.............................| 94

Tho not capped, I'm a big fan of the shield/brawl build. CMs are pretty useless as a cleric because you have an open hand and can't be disarmed. I would guess that Sunder Shield would blow chunks for this build tho.

[Jeril]

Only vvrael destroyers in the scatter use sunder shield that I know of. Would be a bit funny if they gave it to some of the grimswarm though.

[elcidcannon]

Sorry for the necro, closest thread to my question.

Any thoughts to open hand casting as a cleric?

I use smite a lot from guarded, with a runestaff, and just ping away; but I also like 312, which benefits from stance/hands along with 302. Any credence to brawling and going bare hands for better channeling efficiency?

[JackWhisper]

I openhand channel 302 with a tower shield on my capped cleric. It's awesome. I don't use runestaves because... I just don't. I'm sure it's six and one half dozen though.

[elcidcannon]

I openhand channel 302 with a tower shield on my capped cleric. It's awesome. I don't use runestaves because... I just don't. I'm sure it's six and one half dozen though.

But channeling with two open hands is better than onet? I'm referring to bare hands....just dodge training, really. The thought makes me nervous, but it could be practical, right?

[JackWhisper]

Not really. It's a bit touch and go, especially in the end hunting grounds. I use a shield, some use staves, but I don't know of anyone who commonly hunts with nothing in hand.

[Fallen]

I knew a cleric who hunted OTF with both hands free as often as he could. He had a pocket sorcerer to keep him pretty heavily spell tanked. I would definitely advise using scripts/macros to minimize your time without a runestaff/shield in hand for general defensive purposes. Hell, I did it from time to time with 702 just for fun.

[Jeril]

I knew an empath who after being disarmed a couple times during a hunt in OTF would just hunt empty handed. All she hunted with was wizard spells and her own, but she wasn't trained for max CS, although she wasn't too far off either at 500. For spells she had 159 empath, 100 MnS, and 44 MjS if I remember correctly. DS was a bit lower then you'd want while proned but she still died a lot less then most other people.

I'd say spell tanking until you can generate enough self spelled DS would be the way to go. Although these days I'd definitely suggest a runestaff to fill one hand over nothing. There are a lot of decent runestaves out there and at the very least you can get a 7x fusion and ensorcell it; two orb slots, improved CvA, and ensorcell flares. Currently you could get a 6x/6x acuity nervestaff from the Duskruin arena if you were inclined to do so. You could also go shield/runestaff to give yourself more DS, and more orb slots if you are into fusion. Not sure I'd ever go that route just because I prefer having a free hand, makes picking up loot and dragging people a little easier.

[elcidcannon]

I guess what I'm asking is if the benefit of channeling open handed is worth the risk of relying purely on DS and dodging ability.

I'm beginning to think it's not....especially if I'm not inclined to stance-dance while open handed.

[Jeril]

I guess what I'm asking is if the benefit of channeling open handed is worth the risk of relying purely on DS and dodging ability.

I'm beginning to think it's not....especially if I'm not inclined to stance-dance while open handed.

You can do it without stance dancing if you set yourself up for it but I don't think the benefit of that phantom CS is worth it over what you'd get from having a runestaff, shield, or both. If you are doing it for fun and for RP, I'd say go for it though. I do that on one of my characters just because it amuses me.

[Fallen]

You can do it without stance dancing if you set yourself up for it but I don't think the benefit of that phantom CS is worth it over what you'd get from having a runestaff, shield, or both. If you are doing it for fun and for RP, I'd say go for it though. I do that on one of my characters just because it amuses me.

Agreed. I think it's fun for a change of pace, or to finish things off when you only have a cast or two left in you and you're stretching out your supply. It's kinda like the little kid version of popping Sign of Madness to finish off a bounty creature.