Intelligence report on Iraq

[Ilvane]

Even some of the Republicans are concerned by this report. It shows a lot of things, such as the money for rebuilding, and the lack of planning for insurgents, and the belief that there could well be a civil war..

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/09/16/us.iraq.ap/index.html

It's an interesting read, and kind of bothersome in my opinion.

-A

Perhaps if we untied the hands of the military, this wouldn't be a non-issue. Unfortunately we can't, because we'll have a handful of people crying "OMFG U SHOT AT A MOSK THE ARABZ WILL H8T U"

- Arkans

[Makkah]

mosk rofl


rht

[GSTamral]

I entirely agree that Bush had absolutely no idea what he was getting into trying to rebuild Iraq. And there is no safe way out once the fundamentalists begin to take root there.

The only positive that can possibly be drawn is that now the violence is in Iraq, where we have a better semblance of control, and they are killing mostly their own people, something to which I was hoping they would just stick to as opposed to others.

They are an uneducated and hateful people, equal in hatred and stupidity to the zionists of Israel. The only possible solution in the long term, sad as it is, is for a war to occur between Israel and the Arab Nations, one that we hopefully will be able to steer completely clear of.

[Farquar]

Originally posted by GSTamral
They are an uneducated and hateful people, equal in hatred and stupidity to the zionists of Israel.

That's a unecessarily broad and thus invalid statement.


one that we hopefully will be able to steer completely clear of

Not bloody likely, especially since Israel depends heavily on the U.S. for its very existence.

[Edited on 9-16-2004 by Farquar]

[GSTamral]

Farquar, I know you like to make assumptions about other people's statements, but I wasn't referring to the Iraqi people. I was referring to the terrorists who are flocking in droves to Iraq to combat us.

And yes, it does appear unlikely that we can steer clear of such a war. Our nation shares too close of ties with Israel, almost to the point of ignoring when they do bad things, and highlighting and condeming the bad things that happen to them.

The only possible solution in the long term, sad as it is, is for a war to occur between Israel and the Arab Nations, one that we hopefully will be able to steer completely clear of.

Eh. The region has been in-fighting for the better part of a millenia. You're delusional if you think anything will stop it besides the mass genocide of one side or another.

[GSTamral]

Ranger, you misinterpret. By we, I mean we, as in the United States/Western World. If this war happens, I would only hope it includes only Israel and the Arab nations, and nobody else

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by GSTamral
They are an uneducated and hateful people, equal in hatred and stupidity to the zionists of Israel.

Anti-Semite much?

You should really listen to what the Zionists in Israel are saying (those people that have higher degree rater per capita than us) about the actions of their government and military.

I should be shocked that an educated person such as yourself makes such broad and sweeping statements, but I'm not. You sir, are a tool.

[Edited on 9-16-2004 by Tsa`ah]

[GSTamral]

Tsa'ah, there is a difference between an Israeli citizen and a zionist. I'm shocked that someone such as yourself doesn't understand that. Not all, or even a majority of Israelis are zionists, just as not all Arabs are terrorists.

However, the zionists are extremely dangerous people, and if you think that anyone saying such is a tool, perhaps that statement of yours doesn't carry much weight. Extremists in Israel have been just as violent, and just as dangerous as any other group of terrorists in the world.

[Blazing247]

This whole personal war between you two is getting kind of lame. You both make good points for your side when you aren't making petty insults to one another.

On topic, I do agree that we are in over our head in Iraq. It isn't like we're fighting a war that has an end, after all.

[Wezas]

To me, Tsa'ah and Tamral remind me of that movie Unbreakable.

They're total opposites yet both scared of the same thing.

But I'm pretty sure it's not water in this case.

[Latrinsorm]

Dude, Mr. Glass wasn't scared of water, he was scared of a stiff breeze that would knock his jaw off. Water?

I wouldn't try to use intelligence reports based on 2003 information to prove anything, as an aside. We know where that got us the first time.

[Warriorbird]

Heh, yeah. Damn that stuff that occurred previously...like the Soviets in Afghanistan. It obviously has no bearing on the present.

[Latrinsorm]

I was talking about the WMD intelligence that turned out to not be very intelligent. Isn't the Soviet-Afghanistan thing more reminiscent of Vietnam than Iraq, anyway?

[Warriorbird]

Is it?

Ranger, you misinterpret. By we, I mean we, as in the United States/Western World. If this war happens, I would only hope it includes only Israel and the Arab nations, and nobody else

Thanks. I got the reference to "we". I was referring to the fact that you said the only long term solution was for them to just fight it amongst themselves.

Also, consider that Arab terrorists are in the habit of blaming western civilization in general for their problems and that Israel has pretty much threatened to nuke the world if they end up losing. I don't see us not being involved in any mass conflict that occurs there.

Isolationism hasn't and will never work to make things better in the long run. I thought WWI and WWII would have drove that point home.

[Celtic]

Ilvane, I think the answer to your question lies in the beginning part of your link...

W W W. C N N . C O M

:-)

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Farquar
That's a unecessarily broad and thus invalid statement.

Says the man who insinuates the only reason Bush has a very good chance to win is the fact that almost everyone who supports him is uninformed. :smug:

[Edited on 9-17-2004 by Hulkein]

[xtc]

Yeah Iraq is a cluster fuck, it was a mistake going in. Bush took a simple approach to a complex problem. He didn't understand the area, history, tribes, grudges, factions etc. Dumb fuck.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by GSTamral
Tsa'ah, there is a difference between an Israeli citizen and a zionist. I'm shocked that someone such as yourself doesn't understand that. Not all, or even a majority of Israelis are zionists, just as not all Arabs are terrorists.

However, the zionists are extremely dangerous people, and if you think that anyone saying such is a tool, perhaps that statement of yours doesn't carry much weight. Extremists in Israel have been just as violent, and just as dangerous as any other group of terrorists in the world.

News flash Tamral. Israel, in it's current state was founded and is populated (well over 2/3s) by zionists. Zionists are not a dangerous group of people. Those zionists in power are a dangerouse group of people.

Again I ask, anti-semite much?

[Edited on 9-17-2004 by Tsa`ah]

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Wezas
To me, Tsa'ah and Tamral remind me of that movie Unbreakable.

They're total opposites yet both scared of the same thing.

But I'm pretty sure it's not water in this case.

Eh, I had a four paragraph response, but the energy was better spent holding down the delete key.

I doubt either of us have a common fear.

[Edited on 9-17-2004 by Tsa`ah]

How dare you be a jew.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by RangerD1
How dare you be a jew.

Well it just can't be helped. Rest peacefully knowing I'm not one of those extremely dangerous Zionist Jews though!

Additionally Tam, it would have been better statement if you said not all Muslims are terrorists as not all Arabs are Muslim. Pointing out the dangerous (extremely) Zionists.

Pick up a book or put on the fucking sheet and hood already.

[Edited on 9-17-2004 by Tsa`ah]

[Parkbandit]

Weren't Americans complaining about our service men dying in Germany/Japan well after the war was 'over' and that the public wanted our men home?

I'll be damned if I can find anything about it.

[Tsa`ah]

Please tell me that you're not trying to draw parallels between WWII and this war.

[GSTamral]

Well, Tsa'ah, if believing that the actions of the Israeli government has been equally if not more immature than those of Arafat, and if believing that Israel has been involved in the same degree of terrorizing of the Palestinian people that the Palestinians have done unto them, if that makes me Anti-Semite according to your mind, then feel free to believe that, because I will obviously know at that point not to care about your opinion.

I do not sympathize with either side. Rabin was killed by an Israeli terrorist. He was the last leader of that state who had any sense for peace. They continue to elect people who make Bush look like a pacifist. I would say yes then, it would appear that at least a large contingent of the Israeli people are supporting people who promote terror and war. I'd say that puts them on equal ground with anyone else.

So I guess because I don't view Israeli's as better than Palestinians, I'm anti-semitic. That's incredible.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Please tell me that you're not trying to draw parallels between WWII and this war.

There are parallels in all war. Do I believe our intentions or "right" to go to Iraq was as clear as they were in WWII? No.. but I do believe the way the US dealt with the reconstruction does provide insight that this isn't the first one to initially look bad. Had we pulled out of Germany and Japan right after WWII.. would they be the economic powerhouses that they are today? Unlikely.

[xtc]

Israel is a nuclear nation thanks to the USA. An all out war would be a nuclear war, not a good idea. Pakistan which although not a theocracy is primarily a muslim country is also a nuclear nation. Iran will be soon to. War is obviously not the answer. It is a shame these two groups of people can't get along. I think Gaza and the west bank should go to the Palestines and split Jerusalem. The Jews and the Muslims are much like, can't we all just get along.

[DeV]

Originally posted by xtc
I think Gaza and the west bank should go to the Palestines and split Jerusalem. I agree that Gaza and the West Bank should go to the Palestinians, and rightfully so. It really is sad that these two groups can't find peace with each other.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by xtc
War is obviously not the answer. ... The Jews and the Muslims are much like, can't we all just get along. Brother, brother, brother... there's far too many of you dyin'...

Good points, xtc. :yes:

[Back]

Originally posted by GSTamral
So I guess because I don't view Israeli's as better than Palestinians, I'm anti-semitic. That's incredible.

Well, there is one huge difference. Israelis don’t suicide bomb innocent Palestinians. They do retaliate with surgical strikes these days, and civilians have been killed which is bad.

I do agree with you on one point that Darkelfvoid hit on also. I’d like to see both parties find a peaceful solution.

Oh, and one other point that no one has mentioned yet. The majority of Israelis are secular.

[Edited on 9-17-2004 by Backlash]

[GSTamral]

Backlash, you also must consider the fact that the increase in suicide bombers and violence in general are at least in partly a direct result of Israeli policy to continue to land-grab and isolate the Palestinian people. That type of take of land by force will result in increases in violence. That the suicide bombers and such choose to attack civilian targets is the result of their inability to use military force to acheive similar results.

[Back]

Originally posted by GSTamral
Backlash, you also must consider the fact that the increase in suicide bombers and violence in general are at least in partly a direct result of Israeli policy to continue to land-grab and isolate the Palestinian people. That type of take of land by force will result in increases in violence. That the suicide bombers and such choose to attack civilian targets is the result of their inability to use military force to acheive similar results.

But there are other ways than killing civilians to get your point across. After WWII the world agreed to give that land to the Israelis/Jews.

Again though I will agree that both parties need to find a better solution than how both of them act and react currently.

[DeV]

Originally posted by GSTamral
Backlash, you also must consider the fact that the increase in suicide bombers and violence in general are at least in partly a direct result of Israeli policy to continue to land-grab and isolate the Palestinian people. That type of take of land by force will result in increases in violence. That the suicide bombers and such choose to attack civilian targets is the result of their inability to use military force to acheive similar results. Very true. This is a generation of Palestinians that grew up watching these martys and militants wielding guns and fighting the Isrealis by way of terrorism, and self sacrifice. They admire this and attain to it. Isreal has to extend their hand if any attempts for peaceful resolution is to begin. They don't want to negotiate with terrorists so the battles will continue, with no end in sight.

[HarmNone]

I most certainly agree that the Palistinians deserve a homeland. Theirs was taken from them. The return of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank would certainly meet that need, and might well serve as the first step in finding peace amongst these peoples.

HarmNone

[Bobby]

Originally posted by HarmNone
I most certainly agree that the Palistinians deserve a homeland. Theirs was taken from them. HarmNone


Harmnone,

I think you should take a moment and review the "history" of the palestinian people.

They never had their "own" land. In fact, the Palestinian's weren't a "people" until Arafat and his ilk banded together in the 60's and call themselves Palestinians.

Palestine was always the home to Jews, not Palestinians.

More of an FYI then anything.

Bobby.

[Bobby]

Oh dog gone it..

I also meant to mention that the land that was taken, Gaza Strip and the West Bank, was taken by the Israeli's during the Six day war where Egypt and Syria attacked Isreal and the outcome was that Moshe Dyan was prevented from driving his tanks right into Cairo by the PM during the war. Had they not stopped, I think we'd be having a different discussion.

I find it interesting, Isreal is attacked by two rather powerful countries. They beat both of them in a matter of a week, then for 30 years people are complaining that they should give the land back, land that they use as a buffer against those that hate them.

[HarmNone]

My interest in your post, Bobby, led me to take a look to see what I could find. It seems that during the time of the Ottoman Empire, non-Ottoman Jewish people had wish to settle in what was known as the region of Palestine, a part of Syria and under Ottoman control. That wish was granted with certain caveats. However, there were already people living there, some Jewish, some not.

Here are several very interesting reads, and some really neat maps. :)

http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/chronology/14001962.htm

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_maps.php

http://www.archiveeditions.co.uk/Leafcopy/175-3PalBnds.htm

http://www.jewish-history.com/Palestine/

http://www.1uptravel.com/worldmaps/history-middle-east22.html

HarmNone, enjoying the opportunity to learn more

The smartest thing Israel ever did was finally put a wall up to defend herself against those who wish to self-explode. Unfortunately a lot of it is being built across Palestinian farmland.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Bobby
I find it interesting, Isreal is attacked by two rather powerful countries. They beat both of them in a matter of a week, then for 30 years people are complaining that they should give the land back, land that they use as a buffer against those that hate them. They hate each other equally. It's not a one sided affair.

[Celtic]

Harm..

I see what Bobby is saying but I guess he's not getting his message clear.


Your timeline link (First one) has the following information:

Egypt owned the Gaza Strip and West Bank, while Syria controlled the Golan Heights. That is what they each "paid" to Isreal for losing the 6 day war. Isreal converted that land into a buffer zone. Yes, settlers could stay there, both Israeli and Arab, but the term "Palestinian" didn't appear on people's lips until Sept 5th, 1964, when the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization) was born.

This group, led by Yasser Arafat, had one aim, that was to rid the middle east of Israel, and take back the land given to them by the UN in 1947, which in his eyes and the eyes of the followers, should never have happened.

If you also notice during the timeline, the Arabs refused to recognize the Israeli borders and had to have a resolution "April 21: Pres. Habib Bourguiba proposed, that Arabs recognize Israel within the boundaries of the UN's Partition Res. of 29 Nov. 1947, together with the repatriation of refugees" in 1965.

2 years later, Egypt and Syria were poised to attack Israel and only their pre-emptive attack prevented defeat. Notice in the biased time line the entry reads " June 5: June War; Israel begins military occupation of "West Bank" and Gaza Strip of Palestine, Sinai of Egypt and Golan Heights of Syria.

Pretty interesting spin they put on it, isn't it?

Here's the spin from the other side:

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/

On this map : http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/six.html

you'll see how the sinai, which is really mostly desert, buffers Egypt and Israel while the Golan Heights provides shelter from anyone bothering to set up mortars and artillery batteries.

Mind you, all of these "battles" took place in the Sinai desert. The Egyptian build-up was within 100 miles of Israel.

This map shows the cease fire lines - http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/cease.html

Then came the Yom Kippur War.

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/egypt.html

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/syria.html

This was a two headed attack by both Syria and Egypt to try to take back what they lost six years earlier.

Spend some time on Jafi's site. I think it'll be an eye opener.

Alan.

PS, Tsah, no I'm not a zionist, however, their site is by far the best one out there.

Not to mention if Arafat wasn't so busy funding terrorist organizations, fractions of his money could have actually gone to impoverished Palestinians who made the choice of self-explosion.

Arafat is a bigger jackass than Sharon. Netenyahu had scores more of "illegal settlements on Palestinian land" than was ever the case in Sharon's administration.

[Celtic]

PS Tsah...

Make sure you're not putting 5764 on your checks anymore.

<If you're Jewish, you'll laugh your ass off>

[HarmNone]

I understood what Bobby was trying to say, Alan, and agree that the present-day understanding of "Palestinian" is a modern construct. What interested me, however, was more the ancient history...the time of the Ottoman Empire. It's piqued my interest to delve further into that time. :)

Thanks for the links. Those will come in useful once I free myself from the siren song of the Ottomans. :D

HarmNone, more interested in the ancient than the modern

[Back]

You’d think MOSSAD would have assassinated Arafat by now. But they haven’t... that in and of itself says a lot.

Isreal as a a nation has threatened to, though. People, you have to remember, half this shit is “puffery.”

Mossad is so far up Arafat's ass he can't even shit straight. I'm not sure whether Arafat is still under house arrest after the rise of the last intifada.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by GSTamral
So I guess because I don't view Israeli's as better than Palestinians, I'm anti-semitic. That's incredible.

No, this we agree on. Both are led by racists bastards that need bullets in their heads. Israel took the land to protect itself from Egypt and Siria. That protection is not required any longer. An agreement should be made and the Palestinians should be given their own land and sovereignty but only if they can prove to be civil.

I think you're two steps away from putting on some white sheets and a Nazi arm-band for making a broad baseless and ignorant statement about Zionists. I may not support the Zionist movement, nor do I believe I owe any allegiance to a nation that violates the tenants of the law it upholds on a daily basis. I am not ignorant enough to claim that Zionists are an extremely dangerous group of people however.

That is why you're an anti-Semitic fuckstick. I'd say something similar if you claimed Muslims were terrorists. Since you can't distinguish between the actions of a government or group and the will of the people it governs or represents then there really isn't much more to say on the subject now is there.

[Edited on 9-18-2004 by Tsa`ah]

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Celtic
PS Tsah...

Make sure you're not putting 5764 on your checks anymore.

<If you're Jewish, you'll laugh your ass off>

Businesses refuse to take my checks dated by the Hebrew calendar :no:

We rolled in the new year with guitar strums and then annoyed our closest neighbor blowing the shafar. I'm not an apple and honey guy myself, but a good honey lager and apple cider wine is a pretty awesome mix.

PS - Jafi is a good site, but even I will admit that the events described are biased. I have no desire to make Aliyah, I doubt I ever will.

[longshot]

Parkbandit > Poopstains > Tamral.

[TheEschaton]

Just as an aside:


Pick up a book or put on the fucking sheet and hood already.

The idea of a middle-aged Indian business man in a KKK get up strikes me as deliciously funny.

Lastly, I'd just like to point out one bit of information. About the last reason(s) Bush is desparately clinging to for justifying the Iraq war are: a) that Saddam is a bad, bad man, and b) that Iraq has been in violation of UN Security Council resolutions for, oooh, 13 years now?

Needless to say, Israel (and Palestine) is led by a bad, bad man (the difference, in my opinion, being that Arafat doesn't seem to have control over the militant groups...or is a very good actor, but he doesn't strike me as one - whereas Sharon can wave his hand and stop things), and Israel has been in violation of UN resolutions (Security Council and General) for over 30 years, starting with what I believe was Resolution 242 of the SC? I may have the number wrong, but it was somewhere in the early 70s. Moreover, it has violated almost double the number of resolutions (in about double the number of years), and had so many resolutions against it struck down 14-1 or 13-2 (when Israel was on the SC) because of the veto power of the American vote.

Anyways, the idea that Muslims and Jews (and Christians) are so radically different that they must always be at conflict is ludicrous at best. All three religions have the same Patriarch, and if that's not enough, have, in theory at least, very similar patterns amongst its adherents - the most divisive of all of them of course being the belief that only their religion is right.

Sometimes I want to just say "fuck it" and become a Hindu. Then I remember that (part of) my family's been Catholic since St. Thomas came to India in the 1st Century AD, and I'm reminded that there used to be a good message behind it all, once upon a time.

-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by longshot
Parkbandit > Poopstains > Tamral.

I FUCKING WIN!!!

[Back]

Oh yeah, Happy New Year. Lechaim.

the most divisive of all of them of course being the belief that only their religion is right.

I don't think anyone said that they *must* be at war all the time. I think I said that *have* been at war for a long long time, and the aforementioned quote is the reason why.