NBA: Where are Greats Drafted?

[Latrinsorm]

Is it more important to have something to prove (low draft or even second round) or to have the apparent raw talent (1st-ish overall)?

Jordan - 3rd
Russell - 2nd
Magic - 1st
Duncan - 1st
Kareem - 1st
LeBron - 1st
Bird - 6th* drafted a year early
Wilt - territorial* basically makes him the 1st overall pick
Olajuwon - 1st
Shaq - 1st
Oscar - 1st
David Robinson - 1st
Barkley - 5th
Garnett - 5th
Pippen - 5th
Chris Paul - 4th

Bottom line, you're not getting an all-time great if you're outside the top 5, let alone outside the lottery.

.

Erving - incredibly was undrafted in 1971 by ABA teams after putting up 26 points and 20 rebounds per game in college, even more incredibly was drafted 12th by Kareem's NBA Bucks (!!!) in 1972 anyway, even more incredibly it turned out his agent was working for the Squires so he said "f all y'all" and signed a contract with the Maravich's NBA Hawks (???), then sued the Squires (justifiably!!!), then the courts surprisingly sided with the old white men over the young black man, so he was stuck in the ABA. Imagine Maravich and Dr. J? Imagine Kareem and Oscar and Dr. J? The Lakers clearly don't win in 1972 against that team, what does that do to Wilt and Jerry West's historical stature? I'll tell you: it makes Mr. Clutch at best 0 for 8 in the Finals, it might break up the 33 game win streak (eventually ended in Milwaukee, the Lakers had a 7 point win hosting Milwaukee for win #11), it leaves Wilt with only one ring (tied with Dirk, Pettit, Moses, Unseld, Walton)... and the ABA probably folds without Dr. J, what does the timing of that talent influx change? Philly is toast for sure. The Nets might be contracted with no Erving to sell to defray the Knicks' $$ penalty.

A list of players drafted by the Squires over Erving: Austin Carr, Ken Durrett, Dana Lewis, Willie Sojourner, Dana Pagett, Clifford Ray, Bill Gerry, Gilbert McGregor, Hector Blondet, Lou Grillo.

Dana Pagett played 34 minutes for the Squires (not per game, 34 minutes in his career), which is the sum total of ABA minutes for the 10 players listed. Carr and Ray had decent NBA careers. Durrett and McGregor played a little. Grillo ended up being a ref for 40 years.

.

Moses Malone's story is even more complicated, and because he was a high school scrub at the time it's not even documented. Ain't nobody knows how he ended up where he did.

.

Neil Johnston (6'8") was a minor league pitcher out of college for two and half years, then people figured George Mikan was onto something and tall guys were good at basketball, was an undrafted walk-on for Philly, in 1955 became the first player in NBA history to lead it in points and rebounds. In the next 60 years one other guy did it (Wilt).

[Keller]

Kobe?

Stockton?

[Latrinsorm]

I messed up one thing, Erving would have played for the Bucks after the 1972 season, so Wilt is safe. The ABA in general and Nets in particular are still probably screwed if he jumps leagues, though.
Kobe?

Stockton?I messed up one thing. ⌐■_■

[Narthsin]

Stockton was selected by the Utah Jazz in the first round of the 1984 NBA Draft with the 16th overall pick.

Bryant was chosen as the 13th overall draft pick by the Charlotte Hornets in 1996, the first guard to be drafted out of High School.


...

No wonder they were left out, they FOIL Latrin's conclusion. FOILED I say!

[Anebriated]

Bryant was chosen as the 13th overall draft pick by the Charlotte Hornets in 1996, the first guard to be drafted out of High School.



Ugh this still pisses me off to this day. I wanted the sixers to draft Kobe who was out of Lower Merion(Philly area) who I had just seen play a state finals game in his senior year(vs Rip Hamilton and Coatesville I believe). Instead we took Iverson. While Iverson was a good "baller" he was never a good player.

[Valthissa]

Moses Malone's story is even more complicated, and because he was a high school scrub at the time it's not even documented. Ain't nobody knows how he ended up where he did.



I don't know where you got this but Moses Malone was arguably the best high school basketball player in the history of Virginia.

He came right after I did, I saw him play (Petersburg High School) in the regional finals both his junior and senior years.

They won some ridiculous number of games in row (60?) and he was the bestplayer around 30 points and 20 rebounds a game.

He was skinny, but most 6' 10" 16 year olds are.

[Warriorbird]

I don't know where you got this but Moses Malone was arguably the best high school basketball player in the history of Virginia.

He came right after I did, I saw him play (Petersburg High School) in the regional finals both his junior and senior years.

They won some ridiculous number of games in row (60?) and he was the bestplayer around 30 points and 20 rebounds a game.

He was skinny, but most 6' 10" 16 year olds are.



Though from a different Virginia generation I'll echo this. He's still a legend too.


We gonna win all the games like Moses Malone!

[Latrinsorm]

Stockton was selected by the Utah Jazz in the first round of the 1984 NBA Draft with the 16th overall pick.

Bryant was chosen as the 13th overall draft pick by the Charlotte Hornets in 1996, the first guard to be drafted out of High School.


...

No wonder they were left out, they FOIL Latrin's conclusion. FOILED I say!Or: neither Kobe nor Stockton are on the level of the players already listed, and this is yet another way that is true.
I don't know where you got this but Moses Malone was arguably the best high school basketball player in the history of Virginia.

He came right after I did, I saw him play (Petersburg High School) in the regional finals both his junior and senior years.

They won some ridiculous number of games in row (60?) and he was the bestplayer around 30 points and 20 rebounds a game.

He was skinny, but most 6' 10" 16 year olds are.I got this from the perspective of the leagues at the time. He went in the 3rd round in the 1974 ABA draft, with 6 teams passing on him three times: the Nets, Pacers, Conquistadors, Rockets (the other ones), Squires and the immortal Memphis Tams. 4 NBA teams passed on him in the 1976 dispersal draft, then the team that drafted him traded him two months later, then that team traded him within a week...

He's obviously an all-time great, which is why he was mentioned in the first place, but he was lightly regarded in every draft he was involved in except the 1975 special draft that only had a field of 5 players, and even then the Blazers could only draft him in the dispersal draft because the Jazz waived their rights, and there's no record of how many teams refrained from picking before the Jazz did. That's at least 6 NBA teams in the span of two months that had no use for Moses Malone. Crazy, but true.

[Anebriated]

Then why add Lebron, Garnett and Paul?

[Keller]

The lengths Latrin goes to prove Lebron's greatness has me questioning if Lebron is really any good at all. If Latrin, whose judgment I trust, feels he needs to artificially boost Lebron into the pantheon of greatness - Latrin must feel like Lebron isn't great on his own.

Is Lebron the next McGrady?

[Anebriated]

McGrady was the 9th overall pick... Maybe more like Vince Carter who was a 5th pick and did something that Lebron has never accomplished, won a slam dunk contest...

[Stretch]

Kwame - 1

[Skip]

Is it weird that I hear the sad Charlie Brown music every time I think of kwame brown?

[Latrinsorm]

Then why add Lebron, Garnett and Paul?In order:

1. Most MVPs since Jordan, most FMVPs since Shaq, top 5 stats all-time.
2. A deserved MVP and a ring, DPOY.
3. Should have an MVP, top-5 stats all-time.

You will notice, I trust, that Kobe and Stockton do not fit any of those descriptors.
The lengths Latrin goes to prove Lebron's greatness has me questioning if Lebron is really any good at all. If Latrin, whose judgment I trust, feels he needs to artificially boost Lebron into the pantheon of greatness - Latrin must feel like Lebron isn't great on his own.

Is Lebron the next McGrady?Another perspective might be that if LeBron shows up in every possible metric for the greatest players of all time, he probably is one. If he puts up stats like the greatest of all time, and his team wins titles like the greatest of all time, and he wins awards like the greatest of all time, you're not playing Clay Shooting. He's a duck. Duck duck goose. The deuce is loose. Mao and Thao and the lights are zapping, get down and stay down with your bag of hammers.

Am I wrong?

[Narthsin]

Or: neither Kobe nor Stockton are on the level of the players already listed

Wow, that's laughable and simply wrong. Just because Stockton never won a championship doesn't mean he isn't an all time great and was much better than a lot of people on that list of yours. He still holds a ton of records that aren't going to be beat anytime soon, and he was the complete package on offense and defense.

Most assists in a career by a HUGE margin. Over 3,000, with over 5,000 more assists than Magic.
1 John Stockton 15,806
2 Jason Kidd 12,091
3 Mark Jackson 10,334
4 STEVE NASH 10,296
5 Magic Johnson 10,141

Most career steals by another large margin.
1 John Stockton 3,265
2 Jason Kidd 2,684
3 Michael Jordan 2,514

A 10x All-Star. A gold medalist. Not to mention his work ethic and reliability as a player? The man only missed 4 games in his first 13 seasons.

Stockton is easily in the top 3-5 point guards of all time. Hands down. I'd argue he was the GOAT point guard when it came to being a playmaker and helping his team (who were mostly 'average' players with the exception of Karl Malone) excel.

Edited to add: I don't even need to make a case for Kobe. I mean, come on.

[Latrinsorm]

The only point guard on my list is Chris Paul, and if you think the Jazz were average I can't imagine what you think of Chris' New Orleans teams.

I like Stock a lot, but I also feel that "best", "greatest", and "longest" are similar but distinct categories.

[Narthsin]

For a numbers guy, you sure have your blinders on.

Edit: I'm not saying some of the players weren't good, but that the Jazz didn't have anyone else make the Hall of Fame, regardless of how good a few of them were.

They also had some really bad players that Stockton and Malone basically carried. Greg Ostertag anyone?

[Latrinsorm]

This is a weird thing that happens, and it's not just you, Narthsin. Someone like me will come along with a lot of numbers, okay, but not all numbers are the same. Think of it like a car: it's not super interesting if one car weighs less than another, it's a lot more interesting if you talk about horsepower to weight ratio. There are even numbers that are totally uninteresting: the dominant wavelength of light reflected, amount of cup holders, width of the seat belt.

Really, the whole point of being a numbers guy is learning which apparently useful information is actually not. You think I don't get a thrill when Kobe isolates and drains a 20 footer over three defenders? But I recognize that in the long run there are three misses for that one make, and that's a losing proposition. In the same way, I recognize that the career leaders in any category aren't useful in a vacuum because of all the counter-cases: Karl Malone is not greater than Michael Jordan, Robert Parish is not greater than Hakeem Olajuwon, Mark Jackson is not greater than Magic Johnson, Mo Cheeks is not greater than Scottie Pippen, Mark Eaton is not greater than Tim Duncan.

[Narthsin]

So Chris Paul is greater than John Stockton? Let's be realistic, I think Paul has another decade to play before we see if that's actually true.

Look at Derek Williams. During his time with the Jazz, the Stockton comparisons were all anyone talked about when it came to him. Now? Not so much.

[Latrinsorm]

I am happy to look at Deron Williams, because I never liked him in the first place and (as you say) he turned out to be a bum. The Pythagorean theorem tells us that if I do like someone they'll be great, and that people overrate Jazz players.

This is Chris Paul's 9th year in the league, he's got a true MVP on his mantel from 2008, his stats are top 5 all time. The only way for his stats to drop below Stock's is if he plays another 9 with a 17 PER and .21 WS/48, and it's unlikely he's going to play that long or that poorly, let alone both. He has only won two playoff series so far, but John only won five in his first 9 years, David West isn't exactly Karl Malone (and Vinny del Negro definitely isn't Jerry Sloan), and this season isn't over yet. It wouldn't take a miracle for the Clippers to reach the Finals, and then they'd be tied for team success so far.

[Narthsin]

Not having Stockton or Kobe on that list when you have Pippen and Paul on there instead is laughable. You didn't select them because they fit your 'top 5 draft pick' theme, nothing more. Personally, having grown up watching the Stockton/Malone Jazz era, I really think Stockton made Malone look a LOT better than he actually was. There's a reason Malone held scoring records, while Stockton held the assists record. Without a point guard of that caliber setting up nearly unstoppable pick/rolls for him, Malone would have had a much harder time getting to the hoop on such a regular basis. Malone's later years were plagued by terrible 20-foot fade away jumpers that made me cringe every time he shot the ball.

There's a reason Malone failed to get a championship even after going to the Lakers for his last year.

I'm glad we agree on the Williams thing. My point however is that Paul still has a lot to prove over the rest of his career. If he keeps up what he's doing until his career is over, then (and only then) would I consider him on par or better than the likes of Stockton. He's on track though, I'll give him that.

Also, Stockton >= Pippen in almost every aspect, if you look at their stats. Stockton holds more records, and had more All-star appearances. Pippen couldn't win a championship without Jordan coming out of retirement and back to the Bulls.

[Latrinsorm]

Not having Stockton or Kobe on that list when you have Pippen and Paul on there instead is laughable. You didn't select them because they fit your 'top 5 draft pick' theme, nothing more.I've given you objective criteria for picking Paul. If you would like to address that, I am ready to listen. I'd put Stockton on before Kobe: better shooter, made his teammates better instead of worse, much better ast/tov stats, better defense, better WS production overall. Thus, if Stockton isn't on then Kobe can't be either.
Personally, having grown up watching the Stockton/Malone Jazz era, I really think Stockton made Malone look a LOT better than he actually was. There's a reason Malone held scoring records, while Stockton held the assists record. Without a point guard of that caliber setting up nearly unstoppable pick/rolls for him, Malone would have had a much harder time getting to the hoop on such a regular basis. Malone's later years were plagued by terrible 20-foot fade away jumpers that made me cringe every time he shot the ball.I trust you will notice that Karl Malone did not make my list either.
There's a reason Malone failed to get a championship even after going to the Lakers for his last year.Yeah, Kobe.
I'm glad we agree on the Williams thing. My point however is that Paul still has a lot to prove over the rest of his career. If he keeps up what he's doing until his career is over, then (and only then) would I consider him on par or better than the likes of Stockton. He's on track though, I'll give him that.

Also, Stockton >= Pippen in almost every aspect, if you look at their stats. Stockton holds more records, and had more All-star appearances. Pippen couldn't win a championship without Jordan coming out of retirement and back to the Bulls.Oscar couldn't win a championship without Kareem, and he had 10 tries at it to Pippen's 6. Stockton does have much better stats than Pippen, but you're comparing a first option to a second. From the very brief look we got at Scottie as a first option, it's plausible that his stats would have stood up well to more touches throughout his career. If we're not going to blame Stockton for the teammates that held him back from rings, we shouldn't blame Pippen for the teammate that held him back from touches.

[Narthsin]

I've already addressed the numbers in my first post. But, here's some more. Stockton averaged a double double, over 19 years!

Career Averages:
Stockton: 13.1 points, 10.1 assists, 2.2 steals, 51.5% FGP, Games Played: 1504, Games Started: 1300, Seasons Played: 19
Paul: 18.6 points, 10.5 assists, 2.2 steals, 47.3% FGP, Games Played: 591, Games Started: 591, 9 Seasons.
Pippen: 16.1 points, 5.2 assists, 2 steals, 47.3% FGP, 17 Seasons. Games Played: 1178, Games Started: 1053
Kobe: 25.5 Points, 4.8 assists, 1.5 steals, 45.5% FGP, Games Played: 1239, Games Started: 1091, 17 Seasons.

I'm not arguing that Paul isn't great, but like I said before, I want to see where he is in another decade. He very well could be one of the best point guards ever, if he keeps it up.

Pippen has 5 fewer assists per game than Stockton, which is around 10-15 fewer points he contributed to his team per game. If you look at his average scoring, that means Stockton, over 19 years was worth an average of 7-12 points more than Pippen in every game they played. And since he played 326 more games than Pippen... well, you do the math if you want.

Pippen doesn't belong on that list. He's good, but not an "all time great". Stockton does and is. Paul certainly will if he keeps it up for another 10 years.

And... well... Kobe's FG% is telling. Comparing Kobe and Pippen is actually interesting. Pippen was essentially the 'Kobe' of his generation, with significantly fewer points.

[Latrinsorm]

Advanced stats like PER and WS are better because they control for year-to-year changes. If you try to compare Wilt's 50 and 26 to LeBron's 27 and 8 it's obvious Wilt was at least 2.5x better, but this ignores the many changes in the fifty some odd years from 1962 to 2013. The PERs of each year are 31.7 and 31.6 respectively: does this indicate that advanced stats are rigged to make LeBron look good? Or that the NBA of 1962 really was awful different from 2013 NBA? (Please consider that PER and WS were invented before LeBron even got to the NBA, which makes it implausible that they were invented for hagiography.)

My point about Paul is that he doesn't have to keep up this pace to surpass Stockton precisely because he has built up 9 years of super-Stocktonian play. He would logically have to [play 9 more years] and [at sub-Stocktonian play] to end up at the same level, and he's not going to do either.

.

It is one of the great tragedies of modern sports that Kobe did not embrace his evolutionary Pippen status (I would call him an evolutionary Drexler, but the distinction is pretty fine), because Kobe is the last player who could have challenged for Russell's ring record. The NBA draft has always been designed to send the best players to the worst teams, and over the years the loopholes in this system have been incrementally closed: Magic was drafted by the Lakers because the Jazz had no idea what an unprotected first round draft pick was worth, Bird was drafted by the Celtics because Red was a tricky bastard and drafted him a year early, Kobe was drafted by the Lakers because Jerry West was the only GM with half a brain outside of Pop (who had literally 0 draft picks in 1996). It's very easy to reconstruct history for Kobe being on 8 championship teams (00-02 Lakers, 04 Lakers, 06 Lakers with no Shaq trade, 09-11 Lakers with Gasol), but he had to be the Black Mamba instead of Batman and alienate / chase out every elite big man and coach he ever had.

Now it's all over. There are no more market inefficiencies to exploit, no more ways to sneak a very good player onto a great team from his rookie year. Of course Russell himself was a great rather than very good player, but those loopholes (also exploited by Red, naturally) are long since closed, and Russell's history provides another incredible fork in history to wonder: if the Harlem Globetrotters had treated him with basic human dignity, would he have gone with them instead of the NBA? What does that do for the Hawks, the Celtics, and the NBA in general? What if some other 1950s putative Globetrotter was treated properly and we therefore never witnessed him? All of history trembles on a knife-edge, sports are no exception.

[Narthsin]

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Ariel-Confused-Crazy-In-THe-Little-Mermaid-Meme-Gif.gif