7x Naginta vs 4x Perfect Lance

[caelric]

7x naginta vs 4x perfect lance (assume that the lance will never be enchanted further).

Which is going to be a better weapon, mechanically? Consider them to be used against multiple armor groups.

1st scenario: agidex gets the lance to a 6 second swing, while the naginta is at a 5 second swing.

2nd scenario: both are at 5 second swings.

[JackWhisper]

4x perfect lance, without question, in both scenarios.

Reasoning:
Lance DF .725 .525 .550 .475 .350 9 5 Puncture/Crush 17/105
AvD 35 38 37 36 35 39 37 35 33 53 49 45 41 50 44 38 32
Nagin DF .550 .400 .400 .300 .200 6 5 Slash/Puncture/Crush 25/150
AvD 50 50 49 48 47 51 49 47 45 52 48 44 40 52 46 40 34

Taken straight from Krakiipedia. A lance beats out a naginata by nearly 2x the DF in every single instance. You'd need some sort of weighting, or a lot more than a simple +15 AS to overcome that sort of straight difference. Not even including the inherent +6% DF from the perfect forging bonus. Even if you swung at 1sec slower, it still destroys in 2 swings what a naginata simply cannot reach in 3. Oh, and the AvD is better against all but full plate, which is where the DF difference really shines. A naginata will be bleh against that, but hey high AvD, but a lance has like 4 less, but STILL kicks the snot out of the critter.

Just my opinion. I've used both, and I actually had an 8x (4x/4x) naginata, and a 4x perfect lance, and I didn't even bother with the naginata after a single hunt with the lance, comparing. Now I use a 7x perfect lance. Never looked back. IMHO: Lance/Maul or go swing a 1hander, nothing else is worth it except coraesine stuff for the air flares.

[caelric]

Perfect, thanks. On a semi related note, what is the DS bonus for having a polearm? I couldn't find an exact number on KP

[JackWhisper]

I believe it's +20. Whole distance and all that. It's why I chose a lance over a maul, since I don't care for the avoidance bonus mauls give rather than flat ds. Plus Lances hit harder.

[Riltus]

Perfect, thanks. On a semi related note, what is the DS bonus for having a polearm? I couldn't find an exact number on KP

The DS bonus is stance dependent. There is entire section with an example detailing polearm parry DS (for both one and two-hand grip).

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Polearm#Polearm_Parry_DS_Formula

The link below is from the original research thread in this forum.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?67561-Polearm-DS-and-Possible-Bug-with-Halberds-and-Lances&p=1393915#post1393915


Polearm DS Bonus Table


Stance|0FF|ADV|FOR|NEU|GUA|DEF
DS bonus|+15|+18|+21|+24|+27|+30


Mark

[Riltus]

4x perfect lance, without question, in both scenarios.

Reasoning:
Lance DF .725 .525 .550 .475 .350 9 5 Puncture/Crush 17/105
AvD 35 38 37 36 35 39 37 35 33 53 49 45 41 50 44 38 32
Nagin DF .550 .400 .400 .300 .200 6 5 Slash/Puncture/Crush 25/150
AvD 50 50 49 48 47 51 49 47 45 52 48 44 40 52 46 40 34

Taken straight from Krakiipedia. A lance beats out a naginata by nearly 2x the DF in every single instance. You'd need some sort of weighting, or a lot more than a simple +15 AS to overcome that sort of straight difference. Not even including the inherent +6% DF from the perfect forging bonus. Even if you swung at 1sec slower, it still destroys in 2 swings what a naginata simply cannot reach in 3. Oh, and the AvD is better against all but full plate, which is where the DF difference really shines. A naginata will be bleh against that, but hey high AvD, but a lance has like 4 less, but STILL kicks the snot out of the critter.

Just my opinion. I've used both, and I actually had an 8x (4x/4x) naginata, and a 4x perfect lance, and I didn't even bother with the naginata after a single hunt with the lance, comparing. Now I use a 7x perfect lance. Never looked back. IMHO: Lance/Maul or go swing a 1hander, nothing else is worth it except coraesine stuff for the air flares.

The table below indicates the break points for each weapon.

For example: If the naginata's target is in cloth armor it will cause more damage than the 4x perfect lance when the naginata's ERs are less than 196. The lance, on the other hand, will outperform the naginata vs cloth when the lance's ER is greater than 168.

Naginata DF vs cloth: .550
Perfect Lance DF vs cloth: .768

With a 95 ER success margin, the damage from the naginata vs cloth is (95 * .550) = 52.25

With a 68 ER success margin, the damage from the lance vs cloth is (68 * .768) = 52.224

These values take into account the increased DFs and AvDs for the perfect lance and the enchant bonuses for each.


Armor Group|Cloth|Leather|Scale|Chain|Plate
7x Naginata|ER <196|ER<187|ER<177|ER<128|ER<131
Perfect 4x Lance|ER>168|ER>162|ER>152|ER>116|ER>116

Based on the table, you are always better off using the 7x naginata vs scale armor than the 4x perfect lance if your endrolls with the naginata are less than 177. Conversely, in this scenario, the lance will cause greater damage when endrolls with the lance are greater than 152. The difference in endrolls is a result of the naginatas higher combined enchant bonus plus AvD value.

Mark

[caelric]

It's for a paladin, so AS is pretty damn good vs what he is normally fighting, so endrolls are going to be high. Thus, the lance wins, I believe.

[kutter]

My bard has both, and uses sung polearms, personally very little lives past 2 swings with his naginata, which is pretty much the case for the lance as well. Here is where I prefer the naginata in a lot of scenarios, encumbrance, one box and that 5 sec RT for the lance can become 7, but the naginata is still 5, just something to think about.

[neimanz1]

The table below indicates the break points for each weapon.

For example: If the naginata's target is in cloth armor it will cause more damage than the 4x perfect lance when the naginata's ERs are less than 196. The lance, on the other hand, will outperform the naginata vs cloth when the lance's ER is greater than 168.

Naginata DF vs cloth: .550
Perfect Lance DF vs cloth: .768

With a 95 ER success margin, the damage from the naginata vs cloth is (95 * .550) = 52.25

With a 68 ER success margin, the damage from the lance vs cloth is (68 * .768) = 52.224

These values take into account the increased DFs and AvDs for the perfect lance and the enchant bonuses for each.


Armor Group|Cloth|Leather|Scale|Chain|Plate
7x Naginata|ER <196|ER<187|ER<177|ER<128|ER<131
Perfect 4x Lance|ER>168|ER>162|ER>152|ER>116|ER>116

Based on the table, you are always better off using the 7x naginata vs scale armor than the 4x perfect lance if your endrolls with the naginata are less than 177. Conversely, in this scenario, the lance will cause greater damage when endrolls with the lance are greater than 152. The difference in endrolls is a result of the naginatas higher combined enchant bonus plus AvD value.

Mark



Could we get a chart like this one but comparing dhairn's 10x masterfully crit weighted perfect lance & brute's old 5x maul with +43 crit weighted maul...

[Whirlin]

Could we get a chart like this one but comparing dhairn's 10x masterfully crit weighted perfect lance & brute's old 5x maul with +43 crit weighted maul...

Honestly, there's huge diminishing returns on weighting that high, unless you're fighting something in plate.
For example, a claid against robes maxes the critical tables a 108 endroll. I'm sure with Dhairn and Brute, they're likely fine on their endrolls to be maxing the crit tables.

[Donquix]

If their both maxing crit tables then lance > maul as you'll get more raw damage. It's all about the epeen.

[kutter]

I was reading this thread again and thinking about something. How does the comparison work if you are in Sunfist, at what point does the raw damage that you do just become overkill so it makes more sense to use the fastest weapon you can that still one shot kills? I know that making a table or comparison is tough/impossible, I was just pondering it.

[Whirlin]

I was reading this thread again and thinking about something. How does the comparison work if you are in Sunfist, at what point does the raw damage that you do just become overkill so it makes more sense to use the fastest weapon you can that still one shot kills? I know that making a table or comparison is tough/impossible, I was just pondering it.

Speed of swings was never brought up in this thread. If you don't have the DEXAGL necessary to swing a lance in 5 seconds, you're better off with a two hander. I can substantiate that later, but briefly, a 16.7% faster attack speed is a bigger increase in over DPS output than the DF difference between a Maul and a Lance. Additionally, more swings per time also increases additional damage from crits and crit tiering, further increasing damage output.

[JackWhisper]

Jeril's Maul: 10x, ExPB HCW Bane *Might be VHCW*, Permablessed, T5.

Dhairn's Lance: 10x, T5, MCW.

Neelin's Lance: 10x, T5, HCW, ExPB VHCW Bane.

Wizgem's Lance: 10x, T5, MCW.

^Maul's SUCK! WOO! GO LANCES! I LITERALLY can't think of another even remotely awesome maul in the 9x-10x range. Someone help me out here.^

[neimanz1]

I think brute's old maul is like at least 6x incredibly weighted with 2x enchant giantbane now

with that amount of weighting u could probably crit the toughest critter with about 150ish end roll.

I would definitely take the maul over those lances

[JackWhisper]

Yeah but... its not 10x. Ew! And you only run around spikethorning everything anyways PFFT!

[MrMortimur]

Morning stars are where it's at

[Menos]

Well, you can TWC morning stars.