Some Question Authenticity of Papers on Bush

[Parkbandit]

I tried to find a more unbias story on this, but I don't have subscriptions to any papers and many of the mainstream media is simply not reporting on this story.

------------------------------------------

By Michael Dobbs and Mike Allen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, September 10, 2004; Page A01

Documents unearthed by CBS News that raise doubts about whether President Bush fulfilled his obligations to the Texas Air National Guard include several features suggesting that they were generated by a computer or word processor rather than a Vietnam War-era typewriter, experts said yesterday.

Experts consulted by a range of news organizations pointed out typographical and formatting questions about four documents as they considered the possibility that they were forged. The widow of the National Guard officer whose signature is on the bottom of the documents also disputed their authenticity.


The documents, which were shown Wednesday night on "60 Minutes II," bear dates from 1972 and 1973 and include an order for Bush to report for his annual physical exam and a discussion of how he could get out of "coming to drill."

The dispute over the documents' authenticity came as Democrats stepped up their criticism of Bush's service with the National Guard between 1968 and 1973. The Democratic National Committee sought to fuel the controversy yesterday by holding a news conference at which Sen. Tom Harkin (Iowa) pointed to the documents as a fresh indictment of Bush's credibility.

CBS News released a statement yesterday standing by its reporting, saying that each of the documents "was thoroughly vetted by independent experts and we are convinced of their authenticity." The statement added that CBS reporters had verified the documents by talking to unidentified people who saw them "at the time they were written."

CBS spokeswoman Kelli Edwards declined to respond to questions raised by experts who examined copies of the papers at the request of The Washington Post, or to provide the names of the experts CBS consulted. Experts interviewed by The Post pointed to a series of telltale signs suggesting that the documents were generated by a computer or word processor rather than the typewriters in widespread use by Bush's National Guard unit.

A senior CBS official, who asked not to be named because CBS managers did not want to go beyond their official statement, named one of the network's sources as retired Maj. Gen. Bobby W. Hodges, the immediate superior of the documents' alleged author, Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian. He said a CBS reporter read the documents to Hodges over the phone and Hodges replied that "these are the things that Killian had expressed to me at the time."

"These documents represent what Killian not only was putting in memoranda, but was telling other people," the CBS News official said. "Journalistically, we've gone several extra miles."

The official said the network regarded Hodges's comments as "the trump card" on the question of authenticity, as he is a Republican who acknowledged that he did not want to hurt Bush. Hodges, who declined to grant an on-camera interview to CBS, did not respond to messages left on his home answering machine in Texas.

In a telephone interview from her Texas home, Killian's widow, Marjorie Connell, described the records as "a farce," saying she was with her husband until the day he died in 1984 and he did not "keep files." She said her husband considered Bush "an excellent pilot."

"I don't think there were any documents. He was not a paper person," she said, adding that she was "livid" at CBS. A CBS reporter contacted her briefly before Wednesday night's broadcasts, she said, but did not ask her to authenticate the records.

If demonstrated to be authentic, the documents would contradict several long-standing claims by the White House about an episode in Bush's National Guard service in 1972, when he abruptly gave up flying and moved from Texas to Alabama to take part in a political campaign. The CBS documents purport to show that Killian, who was Bush's squadron commander, was unhappy with Bush for his performance toward meeting his National Guard commitments and resisted pressure from his superiors to "sugarcoat" the record.

After their initial airing on the "CBS Evening News" and "60 Minutes II" programs Wednesday night, the documents were picked up by other news organizations, including The Post. A front-page story in The Post yesterday noted that CBS declined to provide details about the source of the documents, the authenticity of which could not be independently confirmed.

On Wednesday evening, the White House e-mailed reporters copies of the documents, as supplied by CBS, as well as the transcript of a CBS interview with White House communications director Dan Bartlett rebutting allegations that Bush had shirked his military duties. While Bartlett described the emergence of the documents as "dirty politics," he did not dispute their authenticity.

After doubts about the documents began circulating on the Internet yesterday morning, The Post contacted several independent experts who said they appeared to have been generated by a word processor. An examination of the documents by The Post shows that they are formatted differently from other Texas Air National Guard documents whose authenticity is not questioned.

William Flynn, a forensic document specialist with 35 years of experience in police crime labs and private practice, said the CBS documents raise suspicions because of their use of proportional spacing techniques. Documents generated by the kind of typewriters that were widely used in 1972 space letters evenly across the page, so that an "i" uses as much space as an "m." In the CBS documents, by contrast, each letter uses a different amount of space.

While IBM had introduced an electric typewriter that used proportional spacing by the early 1970s, it was not widely used in government. In addition, Flynn said, the CBS documents appear to use proportional spacing both across and down the page, a relatively recent innovation. Other anomalies in the documents include the use of the superscripted letters "th" in phrases such as 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Bush's unit.

"It would be nearly impossible for all this technology to have existed at that time," said Flynn, who runs a document-authentication company in Phoenix.

Other experts largely concurred. Phil Bouffard, a forensic document examiner from Cleveland, said the font used in the CBS documents appeared to be Times Roman, which is widely used by word-processing programs but was not common on typewriters.

CBS officials insisted that the network had done due diligence in checking out the authenticity of the documents with independent experts over six weeks. The senior CBS official said the network had talked to four typewriting and handwriting experts "who put our concerns to rest" and confirmed the authenticity of Killian's signature.

The doubts about the documents left the White House and the Bush campaign in a state of suspended animation, with Bush aides encouraging doubts about the documents but conceding that the possibility that they were forged seemed too good to be true. White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said that officials there had not attempted to authenticate the documents but simply released copies "provided to us by CBS in the interests of openness."

The Bush administration's strategy yesterday was to let news organizations raise doubts and conduct forensic examinations, without taking an official position on whether the documents were genuine.

"It's clear in reviewing the documents that they do nothing to change the fact that the president served honorably, and was proud of his service in the Air National Guard," Bush campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt said.

[Edited on 9-15-2004 by Parkbandit]

[Dhuul]

www.bugmenot.com will give you passwords to the New York Times site and most other subscription-based newspapers, and other sites like gamespot and fileplanet

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
... many of the mainstream media is simply not reporting on this story.


I've heard this story on the news, read this story in the paper, and seen this story on the internet no less than 10 times in the last week. I wouldn't go so far as to say they're not reporting it :)

It is interesting, nonetheless.

Jorddyn, doesn't really care what he did 30 years ago

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by Parkbandit
... many of the mainstream media is simply not reporting on this story.


I've heard this story on the news, read this story in the paper, and seen this story on the internet no less than 10 times in the last week. I wouldn't go so far as to say they're not reporting it :)

It is interesting, nonetheless.

Jorddyn, doesn't really care what he did 30 years ago

I agree Jorddyn, I heard about the "authenticity issue" almost immediately. What better counter-attack than to claim that the papers might be fabricated? That is nothing but causing a distraction from the real issue, imho that is:

Did W receive preferential treatment because he is a son of privilege? (Which makes anyone wonder...just who had to go in his place....did they make it back alive?)

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
I agree Jorddyn, I heard about the "authenticity issue" almost immediately. What better counter-attack than to claim that the papers might be fabricated?You know, it almost sounds like you're not on Bush's side.

[xShadowMerchantx]

Its funny that the print they used wasn't around when those papers were supposedly made.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

It was the one armed man that did it!

Even more people don't give a fuck

[Ilvane]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/06/politics/main641481.shtml

It's a good article, that shows all the did to authenticate.

-A

[Chadj]

Originally posted by xShadowMerchantx
Its funny that the print they used wasn't around when those papers were supposedly made.

This is untrue.

It was around, just not widely used, if I recall correctly.

[Valthissa]

Originally posted by Ilvane
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/06/politics/main641481.shtml

It's a good article, that shows all the did to authenticate.

-A

ya think CBS wrote that one?

try this one instead:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/bush_guard_documents_040914.html

this story adds nothing to the question of who should be president.

It is a very sad story for the mainstream media.

C/Valth

[Latrinsorm]

When the guy's wife says it's BS, you'd think we could drop it.

edit: the guy's wife I'm talking about is the dead Guardsman's wife, not Laura.

[Edited on 9-15-2004 by Latrinsorm]

[Ilvane]

So what if CBS wrote it, they did the authentications, and had the experts that reviewed the information.

Why is it that Bush can't answer the few questions asked about his records, and stop the talk? I mean, it would go really far if he would just answer the answers and show his proof.

Dan Rather even asked him last night to answer or someone from his staff. Of course they said they already answered it.

So, do you think your wife(if you are married) knows everything you signed in your life, or looked at or reviewed and knows every detail about it?

-A

[Edited on 9-15-2004 by Ilvane]

[Valthissa]

Originally posted by Ilvane
So what if CBS wrote it, they did the authentications, and had the experts that reviewed the information.

-A

[Edited on 9-15-2004 by Ilvane]

look, I think Bush took the easy way out.

Kerry actually went over, he could have been killed. I respect him for that.

This story is about CBS. Not Bush. Not Kerry. Not Democrats. Not Republicans.

A major network ignored some of the experts they hired (you did check the link?) - people that told them documents were not authentic. They put the story on TV anyway.

If they had run the story without the documents that would be entirely different. They could have run a story about Bush's service or lack thererof during Vietnam But they choose to put documents on television that are forgeries - as their some of their own experts told them.

It's really not acceptable for major media outlets to just ask for a series of expert opinions until they get one that agrees with their story-is it?

C/Valth

[Edited on 9-15-2004 by Valthissa]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ilvane
So what if CBS wrote it, they did the authentications, and had the experts that reviewed the information.

Why is it that Bush can't answer the few questions asked about his records, and stop the talk? I mean, it would go really far if he would just answer the answers and show his proof.

Dan Rather even asked him last night to answer or someone from his staff. Of course they said they already answered it.

So, do you think your wife(if you are married) knows everything you signed in your life, or looked at or reviewed and knows every detail about it?

-A

[Edited on 9-15-2004 by Ilvane]

That would be like me posting something from Fox news proving they investigated a story on Fox news that every other intelligent person knows to be fake.

Dan Rather is the most biased reporter of most network news shows. I hope this is investigated and he gets thrown out on his ear.

Dan Rather's Track Record (http://www.ratherbiased.com/)

[Ilvane]

Dan Rather is a respected and wonderful journalist, PB.

I will never forget his reporting on 9/11. He was doing and saying the exact kinds of thing we would expect anyone to do and feel when something like that happens to our country.

-A

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ilvane
Dan Rather is a respected and wonderful journalist, PB.

I will never forget his reporting on 9/11. He was doing and saying the exact kinds of thing we would expect anyone to do and feel when something like that happens to our country.

-A

He is ranked 3rd out of the 3 network reporters. I have no doubt you would prefer him as he gives the most liberal slant of them all.

What a surprise.

[Some Rogue]

I think it's really funny how all these Clinton loving Democrats who didn't give a damn about military service when their man was in office all of a sudden think it's of the utmost importance.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Would Bush saying something change your opinion at all Ilvane? Somehow I doubt it. You/the media would simply pick it apart and find another reason to hate (and I use the word hate intentionally, because reading your posts really makes it clear it IS hate) him.

[Parkbandit]

She will have to deal with her irrational hatred for 4 more years.. which gives me a warm feeling inside.

:)

[Back]

Gonna weigh in here (big suprise) and give some of my observations.

First, I’d be really suprised and disappointed if 60 Minutes II forged them. Very disappointed. 60 Minutes has a long running history of doing serious and factual exposes on government/corporate America. My first thought is of course they didn’t and this is all a smoke screen by agents of the administration. Notice, the administration is very quiet about it.

I’ve long suspected Dan Rather of leaning pro-administration no matter what. He is on CBS News Radio and I hear him on an almost daily basis. Thanks for the link, PB.

Having worked with type and computers for over 9 years, I’d like to have a look at the originals myself. Not that I know all that much about typewriters but I seriously doubt any of them back then had Times Roman instead of a Courier looking font. I’m also good at detecting digital imagery, like PB’s badly photoshoped Kerry flipping the bird photo.

I’m with C/Valth on this one though. Even if this is a forgery, there is still too much other evidence and unscrupulous behavior on the administrations part.

[Ilvane]

I don't hate Bush. I just don't want him to president again.

You can try and slant my dislike for his policies as hate for him as a person, but it's not that at all. I don't mind him as a person, I just dislike what he stands for.

I personally would like to hear him come out and tell the truth about his military records, for the record because his cronies have done the same for Kerry. I don't think it would change my mind on him, at all..but it would be nice if he would be straightforward.

-A

[Ilvane]

Oh and by the way..I don't care about the military service itself, Rogue...What I actually care about is the dishonesty, or appearance of it on Bush's part.

Clinton admitted flat out that he didn't go because he was given the Rhode's scholarship for Oxford. He didn't try and pretend otherwise.

-A

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

See, you've already decided that he's lying. Read your sentence "I personally would like to hear him come out and tell the truth about his military records". He's lying, no matter what he says, according to you.

See, that's why I don't think he needs to do anything other that what has already been done. The public has made up it's mind. It's a dead horse.

[Back]

Heh, seems that RatherBiased.com site thinks he’s biased towards democrats. I feel like its the total opposite.

[Psykos]

Last time, Who gives a shit about these papers, this is the kinda bullshit that plagues american elections now. Get to the fucking issues is what the media needs to do, not some jib jab bullshit about something that no one cares about anymore.

PSYkos

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Ilvane
Clinton admitted flat out that he didn't go because he was given the Rhode's scholarship for Oxford. He didn't try and pretend otherwise.You've got to be kidding me.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Psykos
Last time, Who gives a shit about these papers, this is the kinda bullshit that plagues american elections now. Get to the fucking issues is what the media needs to do, not some jib jab bullshit about something that no one cares about anymore.

PSYkos

Someone already said.. I don't see this as a political issue at all.. what I do see is a news reporting issue.

If CBS knowingly ran the story after many of their experts said that the type wasn't consistant with a memo from that time period and the superscript wasn't consistant.. then I think we will see the beginning of the end of Dan Rather and his team.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash
Heh, seems that RatherBiased.com site thinks he’s biased towards democrats. I feel like its the total opposite.

Rather is very liberal in his views and his reporting. I wouldn't take that site I linked as the end all be all on the "truth" though because they obiously have their own axe to grind.

[CrystalTears]

Just with the subscript "th" you can tell it was forged. Typewriters don't do that.

Either way, I don't know why they care so much about what was done or achieved over 30 years ago. I guess since Kerry won his purple hearts and feels the need to make that his election mantra, that everyone should be a great military man as well.

This is really getting old and I can't wait until the elections are over.

[Edited on 9/15/2004 by CrystalTears]

[Parkbandit]

I don't know who is more retarded.. the actual people that did the forgery or CBS for believing it.

So, who do you think will replace Dan Rathernot?

[Ilvane]

Actually CT they did some research on that, and type writers did do that with the th at the time. They also noticed that it wasn't perfect, in some places it was small th, others normal th..So I don't know exactly what that proves other than it was a typewriter.;) heh.

Who the heck cares anyway about this stuff. Just get the truth out, and be on with it already. All the military records baloney is boring and is taking away from the issues. Of course I've been hearing them try to talk about it, but the media is ignoring it for more 'sensational' stories.

-A

[Back]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Backlash
Heh, seems that RatherBiased.com site thinks he’s biased towards democrats. I feel like its the total opposite.

Rather is very liberal in his views and his reporting. I wouldn't take that site I linked as the end all be all on the "truth" though because they obiously have their own axe to grind.

As a reporter, at least in the past year, to me, he is a wimp. He will never raise any question about anything the administration has done. Now, my exposure is limited to CBS Talk Radio, and even then its just about 30 seconds to a minute of the day’s top story.

No doubt the man has a long standing career as a good journalist, he wouldn’t be where he is now if he wasn’t. I just think he has mellowed and taken the easy path through all this crazy war stuff.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ilvane
Actually CT they did some research on that, and type writers did do that with the th at the time. They also noticed that it wasn't perfect, in some places it was small th, others normal th..So I don't know exactly what that proves other than it was a typewriter.;) heh.

Who the heck cares anyway about this stuff. Just get the truth out, and be on with it already. All the military records baloney is boring and is taking away from the issues. Of course I've been hearing them try to talk about it, but the media is ignoring it for more 'sensational' stories.

-A

You make it sound like all typewritters did that Ilvane.. which would be extremely far from the truth. At the time there were only what.. 2 in the world that did both the superscript and the Times Roman and they were both extremely expensive. Neither one was shown to be used by that commander.

Maybe he went to NY to type that memo that his wife said he rarely ever did. I could happen!

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash
As a reporter, at least in the past year, to me, he is a wimp. He will never raise any question about anything the administration has done. Now, my exposure is limited to CBS Talk Radio, and even then its just about 30 seconds to a minute of the day’s top story.

No doubt the man has a long standing career as a good journalist, he wouldn’t be where he is now if he wasn’t. I just think he has mellowed and taken the easy path through all this crazy war stuff.

I don't watch him or listen to him.. so I can only go by what I read about him. I like Tom on NBC... god I miss how he used to say Monica eLeuwwwinnski.

[CrystalTears]

It was a small th when it was next to the number which causes it to get small automatically. When it wasn't small it was because they put a space next to the number.

It just looks like they're trying to make it look authentic and it doesn't. Heck some of the sentences look squished as it does when the paper doesn't feed through the printer correctly. Maybe that's from years of wear, maybe not, but only a printed document squishes letters like that, not a typed letter.

[Ilvane]

PB, they could come out with difinitive proof of everything and you would still question it, so why bother even arguing.

-A

[CrystalTears]

And you would still say they were lying. For someone who doesn't care if any of this is true or not, you're sure pointing out its validity in it all.

[Ilvane]

No, CT that isn't true. If there was some proof out there, that would shut the media up, I would believe it. I just don't see that proof. Bush doesn't seem too keen on letting it out either. Seems mighty suspicious.

You can think I am a left winger blinded by the truth, but I'm actually an independant who leans Democratic, and would vote Republican if it was someone like John McCain or Elizabeth Dole.

-A

[Back]

Well, I found the PDFs of the documents at CBS. 9 years in the business working photoshop, illustrator, word and a host of other programs in the printing insdustry I’ll say this.

I’d still need to see the originals. They were scanned at too low a resolution to really detect anything. Scanning them that low is pretty common actually, and subsequently, makes detecting if they are forged much harder.

Otherwise they look legit. The font is nowhere near Times Roman. Its like I said, akin to Courier with the slab serifs.

A last and final disclaimer. Anything, and I do mean anything is possible with today’s graphics technology. The key to all this is the originals.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ilvane
PB, they could come out with difinitive proof of everything and you would still question it, so why bother even arguing.

-A

Actually, that would be incorrect. If they came out with proof that there was this specific typewritter that could do these things at that base and used by that commanding officer.. I would say, hey.. sounds like they did their investigation and it was proven to be authentic.

Well, the proof so far is that the possibility that the specific typewritter that was capable of doing that was not on that base and was not used by that commander.. and yet you continue to cling to it like it's the gospel truth.

Pot kettle maybe?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by BacklashA last and final disclaimer. Anything, and I do mean anything is possible with today’s graphics technology. The key to all this is the originals.

There's a local conservative radio show that had someone do that and it's amazing how close to the 'original' he could make it with today's technology. Everything was duplicated.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Ilvane
PB, they could come out with difinitive proof of everything and you would still question it, so why bother even arguing.

-A

Looks like you're the one here arguing against the side with better proof.

The typewriters that had the subscript 'th' stamp were very expensive and almost every document expert has said it is VERY unlikely he used one or they even had one.

[TheRoseLady]

Why doesn't Bush just answer the questions? Let us see his pay records, retirement points and more information regarding him skipping his required physical and being grounded.

Here's a nice incentive for the Republicans, better get busy.

$50,000 For Proof of Bush Service (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/14/bush.texans/index.html)

[Parkbandit]

For most of Americans, Bush has provided enough proof that you require. Do you have your paycheck stubs from 1986-1988 Anne? Please email me copies of those, along with your evaluations and any written notifications from your job during that time period.

THAT is the type of proof they are requesting. I certainly know I couldn't provide jack shit from basically 1983-1995. Did that mean I didn't work and go to college?

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Do you have your paycheck stubs from 1986-1988 Anne?

I was 11. But yes, I do have my report cards and all my pay stubs since then. I believe all my written reviews are in my file cabinet at home. And I'm nowhere near organized.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
For most of Americans, Bush has provided enough proof that you require. Do you have your paycheck stubs from 1986-1988 Anne? Please email me copies of those, along with your evaluations and any written notifications from your job during that time period.

THAT is the type of proof they are requesting. I certainly know I couldn't provide jack shit from basically 1983-1995. Did that mean I didn't work and go to college?


Mike- As a matter of fact - I DO have paystubs and other things relating to those years - I was in college - they are in storage in a filing cabinet.

Bush was in the service Mike. Goverment records are entirely different than civilian jobs.

Do you honestly believe that he fulfilled his duties while in the Guard?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Do you have your paycheck stubs from 1986-1988 Anne?

I was 11. But yes, I do have my report cards and all my pay stubs since then. I believe all my written reviews are in my file cabinet at home. And I'm nowhere near organized.

If I were a betting man.. and I am.. I would wager you are the exception and far from the rule.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Do you have your paycheck stubs from 1986-1988 Anne?

I was 11. But yes, I do have my report cards and all my pay stubs since then. I believe all my written reviews are in my file cabinet at home. And I'm nowhere near organized.

Holy shit. You bet your ass you're organized. Anal too for keeping all of that. :P

I'm lucky I have the paystubs from the last 5 years, let alone the last 15. Sometimes you just can't keep it all for various reasons. So what about the people that lose all their documents due to moves, losses, fires.. they didn't work or go to school because their hard copies are gone?

[Wezas]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Holy shit. You bet your ass you're organized. Anal too for keeping all of that. :P


Not really. My work paystubs have always been mailed to my house, so when I get them I throw them straight into the cabinet. As for the report cards - you can thank mom for holding on to those things.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Parkbandit
For most of Americans, Bush has provided enough proof that you require. Do you have your paycheck stubs from 1986-1988 Anne? Please email me copies of those, along with your evaluations and any written notifications from your job during that time period.

THAT is the type of proof they are requesting. I certainly know I couldn't provide jack shit from basically 1983-1995. Did that mean I didn't work and go to college?


Mike- As a matter of fact - I DO have paystubs and other things relating to those years - I was in college - they are in storage in a filing cabinet.

Bush was in the service Mike. Goverment records are entirely different than civilian jobs.

Do you honestly believe that he fulfilled his duties while in the Guard?

No no no.. not some paystubs.. EVERY SINGLE ONE from that 2 year period. Also EVERY SINGLE review, EVERY SINGLE write up or communication.. because that is what the Democrats want to see.

Yes, I believe he was honorably discharged from the Guard for a reason.. because his commanding officer believed he fulfilled his duty.

Democrats use the "Well, Kerry received those medals because his commanding officer wrote that he should, so that is good enough" yet when Bush is honorably discharged, that is not somehow good enough?

[Ilvane]

That isn't the issue at all, it's that there is a question as to whether he showed up to fulfil his duties, and if he was let out with an honorable discharge because of who he was, and his fathers influence was used to do so.

-A

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ilvane
That isn't the issue at all, it's that there is a question as to whether he showed up to fulfil his duties, and if he was let out with an honorable discharge because of who he was, and his fathers influence was used to do so.

-A

I would go after his commanding officer then for falsifying government documents then instead of trying to pull bullshit up on a President.

Thanks.

[Parkbandit]

There is supposed to be some breaking news coming out about this story.

My guess is that Dan Rather will and should step down. Too many people are now saying that they advised CBS that the documents are probably forgeries and that they should not run the story.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
There is supposed to be some breaking news coming out about this story.

My guess is that Dan Rather will and should step down. Too many people are now saying that they advised CBS that the documents are probably forgeries and that they should not run the story.

Yeah, Dan Rather is going to admit that he has blown decades of service as a respected journalist over some documents about Bush's service record.


:break:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Parkbandit
There is supposed to be some breaking news coming out about this story.

My guess is that Dan Rather will and should step down. Too many people are now saying that they advised CBS that the documents are probably forgeries and that they should not run the story.

Yeah, Dan Rather is going to admit that he has blown decades of service as a respected journalist over some documents about Bush's service record.


:break:

Come now Anne.. he would not be the first one to have a lapse in judgement to push his own agenda.

Even if he honestly believed the documents were authentic.. why run the risk if the people he hired told him they were most likely fakes?

He is either a victim of his own piss poor judgement, or he believed he could bring this story to light and no one would be the wiser about the documents. Either case could bring about his retirement much earlier than he wanted.

[Hulkein]

All I know is he is killing CBS' credibility and you know they can't be happy about that.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Parkbandit
There is supposed to be some breaking news coming out about this story.

My guess is that Dan Rather will and should step down. Too many people are now saying that they advised CBS that the documents are probably forgeries and that they should not run the story.

Yeah, Dan Rather is going to admit that he has blown decades of service as a respected journalist over some documents about Bush's service record.


:break:

Come now Anne.. he would not be the first one to have a lapse in judgement to push his own agenda.

Even if he honestly believed the documents were authentic.. why run the risk if the people he hired told him they were most likely fakes?

He is either a victim of his own piss poor judgement, or he believed he could bring this story to light and no one would be the wiser about the documents. Either case could bring about his retirement much earlier than he wanted.

This is directly from CBS' website concerning this topic.

"This report was not based solely on recovered documents, but rather on a preponderance of evidence, including documents that were provided by unimpeachable sources, interviews with former Texas National Guard officials and individuals who worked closely back in the early 1970s with Col. Jerry Killian and were well acquainted with his procedures, his character and his thinking. "

There's still that $50,000 bucks out for grabs.

[PeaceDisturbance]

>>For most of Americans, Bush has provided enough proof that you require. Do you have your paycheck stubs from 1986-1988 Anne? Please email me copies of those, along with your evaluations and any written notifications from your job during that time period.<<

I got a good laugh out of this.... Thanks.

I am very unorganized and I got every paystub and eval from my military service. But I was not born and bred to be a President like Bush was either. I would bet the farm he has everything, since he was raised from birth for this position.

Oh ya, PB. I talked to Bush today(In a dream, just like you). He asked that you strap on a bomb and blow up the nearest Democrate. Nice knowing you.....

God, to many crazy people on both sides.

I would vote for McCain also if he ran. But the nutjobs think he is to moderate and not crazy enough to be a Republican.

Oh ya! All Americans should own .50 caliber machine guns and only Christians should have the right to breath!! Sorry, felt myself sinking to the darkside.

Gah! The Hippies are coming! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!

Bye now.

[Latrinsorm]

From what I hear, it was Jeb Bush who was brought up to be Pres, not George. Which seems contradictory, because his name is Jeb, but that's another matter.

As for the rest of your post: lay off the mary j, dude.

[PeaceDisturbance]

Mary J? Now I am a drug addict because I don't support Bush?!?!? OMG. Proved my case on how big of nutjobs Bush supporters are.

Hell, give your firstborn to Bush so he can die in Iraq over a lie.

[CrystalTears]

:banghead:stopcallingitalieyoupeoplemakemecrazywhe nyousaythatgoddamnit:banghead:

[Ilvane]

What exactly would you call it? A mistake?

-A

[CrystalTears]

Not gonna bother cause no matter what is said, the anti-war people will just argue it anyway. It's been argued into the ground. I just don't like it being called a lie because I didn't see or hear it that way, and I'm not the only one. Just felt like venting and banging my head in that post. :P

[Edited on 9/15/2004 by CrystalTears]

[Ilvane]

:fence:

Okay, no duels tonight.;)

-A

[Sheraidan]

Best thing I've heard about this whole Vietnam-National-Guard-Service-Dodging-Swift-Boat-Purple-Heart garbage is from a pair of Canadian newscasters, reviewing the latest outrage.

One turns to the other, and, incredulously, says, "Wow. It looks like they're going to be running their whole election on things that did or didn't happen thirty years ago."

The other looks confused, shrugs, and they MOVE ON!!!



Although, on a personal note, I'd like to see Bush re-elected. He screwed all this up far too badly to just be allowed to walk away from it at this point. I figure he'll overturn Roe v. Wade and it'll stick until some rich, attractive, successful white girl dies of some complications that could have been averted by an abortion. Then the damage will be undone. Heh.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by PeaceDisturbance
Mary J? Now I am a drug addict because I don't support Bush?!?!?You're a drug USER because your ideas are fragmented, your grammer is poor, and you generally come off as a few ounces short of a gallon.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I like Mary Jane, she's cool

[Valthissa]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady


This is directly from CBS' website concerning this topic.

"This report was not based solely on recovered documents, but rather on a preponderance of evidence, including documents that were provided by unimpeachable sources, interviews with former Texas National Guard officials and individuals who worked closely back in the early 1970s with Col. Jerry Killian and were well acquainted with his procedures, his character and his thinking. "



so is this:

We established to our satisfaction that the memos were accurate or we would not have put them on television. There was a great deal of coroborating [sic] evidence from people in a position to know. Having said that, given all the questions about them, we believe we should redouble our efforts to answer those questions, so that's what we are doing."

They refer to the documents as accurate. Interesting choice of words considering the question is whether or not they are authentic. I read that quote as laying the groundwork for a retraction on the documents - while trying to maintain the underlying charges of the story.

When that happens, it will be a truly sad day for CBS.

I said earlier this part of the story is about CBS and lends nothing to the debate about who should be our next president. No change in my opnon on that part.

C/Valth - Not that anyone cares but it looks like the Dems can't win either the house or the senate so I'll almost certainly be voting for Kerry. I'm really not looking forward to 4 more years of undivided government.

[Jack]

Once again, I feel the need to point out that the whole argument about George W. Bush not fulfilling his contract in the Texas Air National Guard is based not on facts, but on ignorance of the way the National Guard works. I'm going to try to break it down, so that everyone can understand the system.

There are fourteen seperate kinds of duty that he could have pulled in any given year, and each of them are worth a different number of points. For example, UTA duty, or Unit Training Duty is worth two points, while AFT, or Air Force Training Duty is only worth one point. The National Guard works on a point system, rather than a speccific number of drill days attended. Now that this has been explained, we can move on to something more speccific.

Lets look at the fiscal year, from October 1, 1972, to September 30, 1973. George W. Bush earned 71 points, while only being required to earn 44. This makes this a "Good Year", counting towards retirement. The most common mistake made regarding this, is people belive 44 days of drill are required, while it is actually 44 points.

I'm sure most of you who belive George W. Bush was Awol, will belive I am pulling numbers out of my ass, or some other such thing, so I'll provide links to the documents used to come to this assessment. Also, I'll explain them a bit, even though they are failry simple. The dates listed, are from start date, to stop date, and will tell you the number of days he was actively participating in a drill, or training exercise. Under the TD column, you will see how many points were earned for each day of that particular duty. and under the PTS, or Points column, you will see the total points earned for that particular duty. I do hope this clears up some of the confusion.

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/gwbush/gwb72-73arfspe1.pdf

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/gwbush/gwb73arfspe2.pdf

[Kriztian]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by PeaceDisturbance
Mary J? Now I am a drug addict because I don't support Bush?!?!?You're a drug USER because your ideas are fragmented, your grammer is poor, and you generally come off as a few ounces short of a gallon.

Grammar.

[PeaceDisturbance]

>You're a drug USER because your ideas are fragmented, your grammer is poor, and you generally come off as a few ounces short of a gallon.<

Damn, what a hatefull person.

Glad you reinforced my opinion about the freaking nutjob Republicans. Sounds like you would shot your own child if he didn't support Bush.

Psycho, Psycho, Psycho!

[PeaceDisturbance]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Latrinsorm

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by PeaceDisturbance
Mary J? Now I am a drug addict because I don't support Bush?!?!?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're a drug USER because your ideas are fragmented, your grammer is poor, and you generally come off as a few ounces short of a gallon.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HAHAHA. Guess your a drug addict by your own words.

Psycho, Psycho, Pyscho

[Back]

He meant it in a nice way because we all know drug addicts and alcoholics are fine upstanding citizens who know whats best like Rush Limbaugh and George W. Bush.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

You forgot Bill "I don't inhale" Clinton

[Back]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
You forgot Bill "I don't inhale" Clinton

Difference is he was never rehabilitated nor arrested for it. Nor has John Kerry.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Yeah, so that makes it OK!

Glad you reinforced my opinion about the freaking nutjob Republicans. Sounds like you would shot your own child if he didn't support Bush.

^


You're a fucking idiot.

[Ilvane]

I think there is a big jump between smoking a joint and doing cocaine, or being arrested for a DUI.

:grin: But maybe that's just my opinion.

-A, a drug free, not drunk democrat.;)

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I think there is a big jump between lying, and purjury.

-B, a liar, but never under oath, republican

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
I think there is a big jump between lying, and purjury.

-B, a liar, but never under oath, republican

Difficult to commit purjury when you refuse to testify under oath.

[Back]

Limbaugh did synthetic heroin. Very very hard shit. Everyone thinks I’m such a druggie. Rush makes me look like a kid sneaking a cigarette.

-BL, recreational indulging democrat

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Did Kerry refuse to testify under oath about his Swiftboat story?

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
Did Kerry refuse to testify under oath about his Swiftboat story?

I hadn't heard that, I was referring to Bush and Cheney refusing to testify to the 9/11 comission. Do you have a link to the story you mentioned?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

No, it was a legitimate question.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

And for the record, I'm just throwing pot shots out because that's the cool thing to do in the political threads here. Rather than address issues, I'll just post off topic and tangential one liners to derail constructive commentary. It's more fun that way, and I can let my sarcasm shine through!

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by PeaceDisturbance
>You're a drug USER because your ideas are fragmented, your grammer is poor, and you generally come off as a few ounces short of a gallon.<

Damn, what a hatefull person.No, a hateful person would say those things were true because you were dropped on your head, or retarded, or something along those lines. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and attributed them to mind-altering drugs. I have never nor will ever assume anyone is ADDICTed to drugs. I was hoping you would pick up on that by the way I put USER in all capital letters.

Maybe I'm overreacting. Can anyone say that they read PeaceDisturbance's post (the one with .50 cal machine guns) and considered it coherent and rational?

Also, PD, did you really have to respond to the exact same quote in two different posts?

p.s: Kriztian: yep.

[Hulkein]

You didn't overreact Latrinsorm. A few of his posts were out there.

[PeaceDisturbance]

Was meant to be way out there.

Latrinsorm, You remind me of those old women at my church. The ones so set in their ways, closed minded. The haters of anyone that think different. You can only think the way the church says you can think or your going to hell. :saint:

Partyliners are just freaking nuts.

[Latrinsorm]

Where do you get this idea that I hate you? You make a post that, by your own admission, is meant to be nonsensical. When I comment that it is nonsense, I'm a partyliner? :?:

As for the closed-minded remarks and incorrect interpretation of Christianity, I'll let those slide as you don't know me very well.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I can't believe no comments on Dan Rather's apology.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

OMG CBS was mislead. Quality reporting at 11 (on any station without D Rather) (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/nm/20040920/pl_nm/campaign_cbs_dc)

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
And for the record, I'm just throwing pot shots out because that's the cool thing to do in the political threads here. Rather than address issues, I'll just post off topic and tangential one liners to derail constructive commentary. It's more fun that way, and I can let my sarcasm shine through!

Fucker.. that's my job.

Go find your own niche.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
OMG CBS was mislead. Quality reporting at 11 (on any station without D Rather) (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/nm/20040920/pl_nm/campaign_cbs_dc)

:lol:

What a surprise too that Viacom is a top contributor to the Democratic Party. MUST BE A COINCIDENCE!!

Whatever. I don't watch CBS news anyway.. and according to the latest rankings.. neither do many others. Hell, even Fox news does a better job of presenting a non-bias account.

Rather should retire now.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Hell, even Fox news does a better job of presenting a non-bias account.

I agree that CBS is wrong in what they reported (if the documents are definately fake, last I heard they just can't confirm they're authentic).

But that Fox statement is rediculous and unnecessary. Next up you're going to say that "O'Reilly" is fair and unbias.

[Back]

An article (http://www.fair.org/activism/cbs-memos-knox.html) from Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting.org (http://www.fair.org).



But while Knox greatly undermines the documentation of the CBS reporting, it is important for critics to recognize that she corroborates the substance of that reporting.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

So as long as you believe the "substance of that reporting", it's OK to present to the public as "fact"?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Hell, even Fox news does a better job of presenting a non-bias account.

I agree that CBS is wrong in what they reported (if the documents are definately fake, last I heard they just can't confirm they're authentic).

But that Fox statement is rediculous and unnecessary. Next up you're going to say that "O'Reilly" is fair and unbias.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash
An article (http://www.fair.org/activism/cbs-memos-knox.html) from Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting.org (http://www.fair.org).



But while Knox greatly undermines the documentation of the CBS reporting, it is important for critics to recognize that she corroborates the substance of that reporting.

Weak.

By your logic, you have no issue with Police planting evidence on 'known' drug dealers. Or planting DNA.

Uh huh.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
So as long as you believe the "substance of that reporting", it's OK to present to the public as "fact"? Kind of reminds me of the current war in Iraq.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Or Kerry's war record.

I too, can play the one liner game in which no one wins! I see now why these political threads are so much fun.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
Or Kerry's war record.

I too, can play the one liner game in which no one wins! I see now why these political threads are so much fun. Seriously, you need to calm down. I'm not playing any games here, I'm stating my opinion which happens to be true. I'm not for or against, just stating a fact.

[Parkbandit]

Yea SHM.. calm the hell down. You can't one line a one liner. You at least have to two line a one liner unless it's following a three liner and then you really should four liner it.

God.. so much to teach you.

[Wezas]

Much love for PB having O'Reilly talking smack to me.

Very amusing.

[Jack]

What fact? CBS presented forged documents in an attempt to undermine the President of the United States of America. How does that even remotely relate to the war in Iraq? Oh, I know, George Bush lied when he said there were Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq... Never mind the fact that the CIA told him there were, Brittish intellegence told him there were, Australian Intellegence told him there were, even the French, and Germans thought there were. Acting on the information supplied to him by the agencies tasked with supplying such information doesn't equate telling a lie in my book.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I'm not excited at all. Just getting into the fact finding mission that is the PC in regards all things political. Much like the 200 other political threads here that will change no ones opinion or mind, I'm just contributing my biased view of the world in bits and pieces while simultaneous increasing my post count.

NOTHING is as controversial as a political thread, and I'm getting into it for the first time since I've been here. I mean, when half the topics are political, I felt left out.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Jack
What fact? CBS presented forged documents in an attempt to undermine the President of the United States of America. How does that even remotely relate to the war in Iraq? Oh, I know, George Bush lied when he said there were Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq... Never mind the fact that the CIA told him there were, Brittish intellegence told him there were, Australian Intellegence told him there were, even the French, and Germans thought there were. Acting on the information supplied to him by the agencies tasked with supplying such information doesn't equate telling a lie in my book. Everything is relative. False information leading to war is as serious as attempting to undermine the President by presenting a respected news reporter with false documents. Both parties were given false information to work with. That's my point.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

And when do we start talking about religion? I feel like I've missed out on all the smack talking there.

I want to be protestant, they have the best buffets I hear (and I'm all about eating).

[DeV]

I'm sure Latrinsorm can help you out with that SHM.

[Back]

That FAIR.org article was about CBS and its screw-up. From what I’ve heard on the radio, CBS asked the White House if they were authentic and received no information saying otherwise. Thats when they decided to run with it. Hasty and unprofessional of CBS. They have apologized and are investigating further.

CBS did not forge the documents. So who did? Many contacts in the story remain anonymous. I’ve had a problem with anonymous sources for a long time now. Even AP and Reuters uses them. How is anyone supposed to believe what “a top government official who wishes to remain anonymous” says? You could ask the White House Gardener. Whomever gave them to CBS is the real fraud. I think CBS really dropped the ball big time.

But all through this parallel story of forged documents, is the heart of the original story about Bush’s service. Marian Knox, Killian’s secretary, debunks everything people claim are reasons why the documents are forgeries. She had a typewriter with the superscript “th” and the correct font (which everyone now knows is no where near the default MSWord font) yet still calls them fake and claims the substance of the memos is true.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I've changed my mind, I hear Baptists have the best buffets from a reasonable source.

Color me Baptist.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Jack
Never mind the fact that the CIA told him there were, Brittish intellegence told him there were, Australian Intellegence told him there were, even the French, and Germans thought there were. Acting on the information supplied to him by the agencies tasked with supplying such information doesn't equate telling a lie in my book.

There lies the problem.

"For as long as I've been living, the French have been fucking us."

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
I've changed my mind, I hear Baptists have the best buffets from a reasonable source.

Color me Baptist.

Las Vegas has the best buffets.

Las Vegas is the "City of Sin"

Therefore, you should be an athiest like me.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

And D Vader said unto Luke, "Luke, I am your father", and it was so.

[Parkbandit]

Sorry to bump this old thread... but it looks like the report on CBS is out and heads rolled over this fuckup.

"The Network fired Mary Mapes, producer of the Bush military service report; Josh Howard, executive producer of "60 Minutes Wednesday" and his top deputy Mary Murphy; and senior vice president Betsy West following the release of an independent investigation"

While that is all well and good.. I do believe that CBS or people involved in the CBS Evening News / 60 Minutes ::cough:: Dan Rather ::cough:: were let off the hook. I suppose I should be thankful that he's retiring in March.

[Warriorbird]

Not that Fox ever misreported anything.

(Being partisan is so much fun.)

[Tsa`ah]

If even part of the story was fabricated, heads should roll.

Bush has yet to prove that the story is false however.

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
If even part of the story was fabricated, heads should roll.

Bush has yet to prove that the story is false however.

Alas Tsa'ah, the left, right, or anyone else has yet to prove the story true. It appears your point is a moot one as well.

[Parkbandit]

People have been digging at that Bush story for years. Personally, I don't think Bush was completely diligent for reporting to specified places at specified times, but I've yet to see any sort of proof though that has him as AWOL or a traitor to his country like the liberal left would lead us to believe.

Personally.. I think what Kerry did to his fellow vets when he returned from Vietnam (and Cambodia) was worse. That might be me though.. as I place a pretty high standard on Loyalty.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Dave
Alas Tsa'ah, the left, right, or anyone else has yet to prove the story true. It appears your point is a moot one as well.

Alas Dave, you have yet to comprehend. The ball is in Bush's court and he's chosen to ignore it.

Story true or not, Bush could have, and still can, proven himself by submitting the proper documentation that every discharged vet has access to. He did not and still has not.

Where is the unedited DD214 with the name of George Washington Bush?


Originally posted by Parkbandit
People have been digging at that Bush story for years. Personally, I don't think Bush was completely diligent for reporting to specified places at specified times, but I've yet to see any sort of proof though that has him as AWOL or a traitor to his country like the liberal left would lead us to believe.

Personally.. I think what Kerry did to his fellow vets when he returned from Vietnam (and Cambodia) was worse. That might be me though.. as I place a pretty high standard on Loyalty.

Traitor no, in my opinion he is a deserter.

I don't think Kerry's actions upon his return were worse in any degree. I think his actions were politically motivated with his own interests at the forefront. I think that if he had his fellow soldier's in mind he would have put himself aside. I feel that had he put his motives aside I would view what he did as very loyal. My father, as I'm sure the fathers of several posters that served in Nam don't view what Kerry did as disloyal, but that he only served 4 months and reported every boo boo a disservice to his position and his fellow soldier. My father served two tours in Nam and received several "wounds" that he felt were not worth reporting. He has 3 purple hearts and each was from conflict that left him unable to continue without medical attention.

So to me this isn't a Kerry vs Bush, record against record issue ... because they both suck. This is about one man deserting a cushy assignment because he had beer, coke, and weed to consume.

[Back]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Personally.. I think what Kerry did to his fellow vets when he returned from Vietnam (and Cambodia) was worse. That might be me though.. as I place a pretty high standard on Loyalty.

So what, you think Kerry made all that up? If you were in a war, and you saw guys on your side doing things they shouldn’t, you wouldn’t say anything out of loyalty? Loyalty to whom? To guys who do the wrong thing just because they are on your side, or to your country who those guys represent in the global culture?

Just asking. Its a tough call I am sure. Not having been in that situation, I can only imagine how difficult of a position it must be. I”d be inclined to report rapes or the killing of civilian women and children, though I know in doing so I’d be ostricized. I just hope I’m never in that situation.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Personally.. I think what Kerry did to his fellow vets when he returned from Vietnam (and Cambodia) was worse. That might be me though.. as I place a pretty high standard on Loyalty. I'm still trying to figure out how he was disloyal. I think of entire villages being massacared and wonder what place loyalty and honor played. I think of officers ordering their units on search-and-destroy missions where women and children are raped and villages are burned to the ground and wonder what standard of loyalty was being upheld.

I don't know what Kerry's motives were (I'm guessing political) but he was not the only political figure let alone Vietnam Vet involved in the anti-war movement during Vietnam and he was nowhere near the most powerful. The things he was spoke about after he came home were true.

[Warriorbird]

Only thing that bothered me about it was he didn't really dispose of those medals.

[Nakiro]

The idea of betrayl stems from his admittance to "over exagerating" his claims about Vietnam in front of Congress, but refusing to discuess what exactly he over exagerated.

Originally posted by Tsa`ah


Traitor no, in my opinion he is a deserter.


There is a very very large difference between AWOL and Desertion, learn it. *if he was AWOL.*

Kerry made most of that up, which in return painted an even more negitive light on the conflict. What was made up we will never know though, because he is unwilling to fess up to the lies.

Nader for prez, '08 :unclesam:

I suck at being political almost as much as I do at life. :spin2:

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Dave
Kerry made most of that up, which in return painted an even more negitive light on the conflict. What was made up we will never know though, because he is unwilling to fess up to the lies.

You're such a good little sheep, bleating in agreement to whatever you're told. Why don't you just do a little research on your own about Vetnam, war crimes and atrocities. Hre's a few starting points:

"my lai"
"tiger force"
"Thang Phong"
"Son Thang"

Was every soldier over there a butcher or rapist? Of course not. Nor did kerry claim such. But whether you want it to be or not, such things did happen and a lot more frequently than the military wants to admit publically even today. Fortunately, there's the Freedom of Information Act available to scholars and journalists (and anyone else of course but they make most use of it).

Raven

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
You're such a good little sheep, bleating in agreement to whatever you're told.
Raven

Heh.. I was just going to say the same thing about you.

:D

[UnderAge]

me2, I totally agree w/ PB

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Dave
There is a very very large difference between AWOL and Desertion, learn it. *if he was AWOL.*

And here I thought you were the military aficionado, the apex if all things Army.

Being AWOL for a period of time exceeding 30 days, during a time of war, constitutes desertion.

One leads to the other.

[UnderAge]

Tsa'ah,

I forgot to mention....

KERRY GOT FUCKED.


Intelligence prevailed thank god.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by UnderAge
Tsa'ah,

I forgot to mention....

KERRY GOT FUCKED.

Intelligence prevailed thank god.

People like you make even republicans want to keep abortion legal.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by UnderAge
Tsa'ah,

I forgot to mention....

KERRY GOT FUCKED.

Intelligence prevailed thank god.

People like you make even republicans want to keep abortion legal.

Indeed.

[Ravenstorm]

So which of the various problem children did Underage turn out to be this time?

Raven

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
So which of the various problem children did Underage turn out to be this time?

Raven

Did you notice they always seem to be Republican? :lol:


Ducks and runs from PB :saint:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
So which of the various problem children did Underage turn out to be this time?

Raven

Did you notice they always seem to be Republican? :lol:


Ducks and runs from PB :saint:

Two words for you.. and your ranks.

Klaive

Warclaidhm


I SO FUCKING WIN.

By the way.. Underage was Psykos aka "I'M NOT LYCAIN I SWEAR... FINE, I'M LYCAIN, BUT NOW I'VE CHANGED!"

[DeV]

Originally posted by Dave
Kerry made most of that up, which in return painted an even more negitive light on the conflict. What was made up we will never know though, because he is unwilling to fess up to the lies. Google didn't work for you this time?

Seriously, do some research so you at least have a tidbit of knowledge about the information you're refuting next time.