Liberals

[Slider]

I want to ask a question of all you Liberals out there, because honestly this has been puzzling me for some time.
From the posts that i have seen here, and from the media in general, and hell, damn near any Liberal i have ever
spoken too, it seems that being a conservative means "your a fucking idiot, and your wrong no matter what you say".
Now, I agree that i might be a tad old fashioned, and I'll even admit I don't like change too much, but an idiot I
am not. There are values that i beleive in, that you might not agree with, but last time I checked, I still had the
same rights to those beleifs and values as you do to yours. We might not agree on what they are, fine I can deal with
that, no problem. It's America, we are not supposed to agree on everything.

But where exactly did it get decided that my values, my beleifs have no basis in "modern" society, and thus
have to be stamped out, root and branch? Who was it that decided that love for your Country was a horrible thing to
teach a child, and thus had no place in a schoolroom? Who was it that decided that personal responsability was wrong?
Who was it that decided FOR me that the traditional definition of Family was wrong? Hmm? Why is it that if I want my
child to be held responsible for his grades in school I get told "no, you can't do that, it might damage his Id to
fail a test, or get a bad grade". Or worse yet, that there are no wrong answers. God i sincerely hope that the engineer
that built the bridge I drive over doesn't follow this philosiphy, otherwise I am in a world of shit. All the time i
hear from Liberals about how we can't "force" anyone to follow a beleif system, but yet, you force yours on me and my
children "for our own good". It seems every time i open a newspaper, or watch the news, i hear about another lawsuit
to do away with yet another part of my beleif system on the grounds that it somehow impacts your life profoundly or
that it is just something you don't agree with, and thus, it has to go.

So I ask you, if it is so wrong of me to force my beleifs on you, why is it okay for you to force yours on me?

[Gan]

Same reason why there appeared to be more violent protestors arrested at the RNC than the DNC?

Edited to add that although I've not seen any official numbers, the media gave that impression during many news casts as well as had more overall footage of protestor arrests at the RNC.

[Edited on 9-12-2004 by Ganalon]

[Warriorbird]

I dunno. One of my two best friends (besides my wife) votes Republican.

I guess I just see the hypocrisy present in a lot of the so called conservative ideals. I recently read a book by Pat Buchanan where he lambasts Bush for making the Republican party not actually fiscally conservative anymore.

Having seen the nasty reality of Communism, I think I'm definitely a patriot...but I'd like to still be able to exercise my civil rights as an American.

with that said... I see a lot of racism, hypocrisy, and meanness from many conservatives I encounter online...

and with media outlets like Fox, you definitely don't lack for news biased in the opposite direction.

You certainly have the right to your beliefs. But, from your other posts you seem pretty damn moderate.

On a lot of things, I suppose I don't even count as liberal though.

[Edited on 9-12-2004 by Warriorbird]

[Psykos]

Slider,

Great post, I am forwarding this on to some conservative mailing lists I'm on. Once again, excellent questions. Lets hope Baklash cowboy's up and responds.

Love,

Psykos


Originally posted by Slider
I want to ask a question of all you Liberals out there, because honestly this has been puzzling me for some time.
From the posts that i have seen here, and from the media in general, and hell, damn near any Liberal i have ever
spoken too, it seems that being a conservative means "your a fucking idiot, and your wrong no matter what you say".
Now, I agree that i might be a tad old fashioned, and I'll even admit I don't like change too much, but an idiot I
am not. There are values that i beleive in, that you might not agree with, but last time I checked, I still had the
same rights to those beleifs and values as you do to yours. We might not agree on what they are, fine I can deal with
that, no problem. It's America, we are not supposed to agree on everything.

But where exactly did it get decided that my values, my beleifs have no basis in "modern" society, and thus
have to be stamped out, root and branch? Who was it that decided that love for your Country was a horrible thing to
teach a child, and thus had no place in a schoolroom? Who was it that decided that personal responsability was wrong?
Who was it that decided FOR me that the traditional definition of Family was wrong? Hmm? Why is it that if I want my
child to be held responsible for his grades in school I get told "no, you can't do that, it might damage his Id to
fail a test, or get a bad grade". Or worse yet, that there are no wrong answers. God i sincerely hope that the engineer
that built the bridge I drive over doesn't follow this philosiphy, otherwise I am in a world of shit. All the time i
hear from Liberals about how we can't "force" anyone to follow a beleif system, but yet, you force yours on me and my
children "for our own good". It seems every time i open a newspaper, or watch the news, i hear about another lawsuit
to do away with yet another part of my beleif system on the grounds that it somehow impacts your life profoundly or
that it is just something you don't agree with, and thus, it has to go.

So I ask you, if it is so wrong of me to force my beleifs on you, why is it okay for you to force yours on me?

[Psykos]

Stupid post,

Maybe the reason was because many blame Bush (RNC) for our problems, and the DNC doesn't have a current president in office? Moron.


Originally posted by Ganalon
same reason why there were more violent protestors arrested at the RNC than the DNC?

[Gan]

Originally posted by Psykos
Stupid post,

Maybe the reason was because many blame Bush (RNC) for our problems, and the DNC doesn't have a current president in office? Moron.


Coming from you thats a compliment Psykos.

Thank you for demonstrating once again why I really try to avoid political threads due to folks attempting to bash the person instead of the opinion.

[Psykos]

Stupid opinions come from stupid people.

[Slider]

Might the reason have been that the RNC had by far a larger turn out of protestors than the DNC? Perhaps? Or the fact that so many Liberals are so vehemently opposed to Bush that they would vote in anyone to replace him? Seriously, it seems that even groups that don't agree with each other are working togethor to get him out of office. And while I may not agree with the way he has run things since the war ended, he has not done a lot of the things that he is constantly being accused of either.

[Gan]

LOLOLOLZ.

I yield to your authority on that as one who knows most of all by experience.

[Warriorbird]

And the responses are of course to the more flip post...

[GSTamral]

I agree entirely on this one.

I remember even the venerable Ilvane criticizing McCain for stepping on Moore's right to free speech by publicly criticizing him.

And it's amazing that when Moore exercises his right to free speech in spreading half truths in the form of a documentary about Bush (some true, some not, some partially true), he's not "stepping" on Bush, but when someone criticizes Moore, you're "stepping" on his right to free speech.

I believe that love for your own country is healthy.

I believe in healthy debates about issues.

I believe that everyone is entitled to a viewpoint, however wrong and/or stupid it may seem to you.

I believe that the modern state of the EU is proof positive that socialism doesn't work.

I believe that we as americans better know how to spend our money than the government does.

I believe the government should be more fiscally responsible, and run like an efficient corporation, responding to the people as the stockholders.

I believe that unions in America have grown too powerful and need to be put back into step. Teachers who graduate failiing students should be subject to the same policies as any other worker who fails at what they do. Dismissal.

I believe in the death penalty.

I believe in a woman's right to choose.

I believe in modern medicine's ability to use stem cell research to further along the world of medicine.

I believe that encouraging growth by reducing corporate taxes is the best way to create new jobs and encourage corporations to invest more, rather than save and give dividends.

I believe that the inheritance tax is immoral.

I believe that the US government has grown too large for what it is supposed to provide, and all the red tape makes americans lucky if 35 cents out of every dollar collected goes to programs that help the people.

I believe that creating jobs for the sake of creating jobs, such as toll booths, is wrong.

I believe that hard work pays off in the end, and those who choose not to should not get a free ride.

I believe that it is absolutely amazing that many more liberals are adamant to their viewpoint to the point of extremism, saying that anyone who disagrees with them is some sort of tyrant conservative.

I've noticed that the left is more apt to use the "rascist" card or the "fascist" card. It just makes them look like they have no idea what they fuck they are talking about.

- Arkans

[Warriorbird]

Sort've like the right tossing liberal constantly as though it's some sort of epithet? You're picked on...my ass.

Sorry you take it as that, but a liberal is a liberal. Sorry you're ashamed of the title, but I'm not going to start calling them "progressives" or whatever bullshit they want.

- Arkans

[Warriorbird]

I'm not ashamed of it in the slightest. Though, to be quite frank... the lines get pretty damn blurry. I just think that conservatives acting as though they're picked on is a joke. You've got Congress, the Presidency, and you'll probably have the next... yet your feelings got hurt because somebody called you a fascist (not that the Patriot Act is repressive or anything) or a racist (with all your thrilling allies like Siefer).

What does Seifer have to do with me? Nothing. My feelings never get hurt, expecially on a message board, but I do notice it's the liberals that tend to throw the first pile of mud. It seems only a select few seem to try to use facts.

- Arkans

[Warriorbird]

He's an example of why conservatives get called things like you're complaining about. Besides. The use of mud-slinging got y'all the country. Don't act like it didn't. The Democratic Party is finally getting a bit of a clue.

[Slider]

Hmm..I don't recall ever posting that i agreed or disagreed with the Patriot Act one way or the other. Nor do I claim Siefer as an "ally" of mine as you put it, in fact I would have to say that i disagree with his veiws probably as vehemently as you do. And nowhere in my post do claim to be "picked on". I merely asked a question, one that i might add, I still have not received an answer on.

Oh, and the conservatives are not the only one who have their lunatic fringe. Or perhaps you have forgotten such groups as Weather Underground, or howabout the Eco-terrorists that associate with Greenpeace? So, lets try to keep this civil, shall we?

[Warriorbird]

Eh, of course. There's wackos everywhere. I respond to civility with civility though. And I noticed you responded to a one line post initially rather than a well thought out one. Most of that discussion was directed to Arkans. You can read back up to see my comments on yours.

[Edited on 9-12-2004 by Warriorbird]

[Back]

To answer this I had to do a little research.

This is what Dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com) has for the word liberal (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=liberal). Not going to repost just to save room.

Yeah, I’m tolerant, but to a point. Do what you want, but don’t affect anyone else adversely.

Now for conservative (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=conservative).

Hmm, I’m that too.

Raven posted a link to PoliticalCompass.org (http://www.politicalcompass.org) a while back. I tried the test again this afternoon, and again, fell in the same quadrant with the likes of Gandhi, The Dali Lama, and Nelson Mandela. But it turns out I am only really moderate, leaning slightly liberal socially and economically.

To address the notion that liberals are somehow forcing their beliefs on conservatives... well, yeah. More akin to personality traits than ideologies, the two sides of the fence have to collide at some point. The degrees of extremism either way sort of dictate the intensity of the debate.

I can say I don’t think gays getting married is bad, you know, just say it out loud somewhere, or post it, just because I want to state an opinion. Someone who doesn't agree might happen upon it unwittingly. Have I forced my opinion down their throat? Of course not. But, just by making my opinion clear about it, someone who disagrees has now been exposed to a conflicting idea.

Even if I got a soapbox, stood on a corner, and preached about how capitalism needs to have more social responsibility, no one has to stop and listen.


Originally posted by Slider
So I ask you, if it is so wrong of me to force my beleifs on you, why is it okay for you to force yours on me?

Thats a difficult question. Can beliefs really be forced on someone? Even if you whip a man until he shouts what you want him to say, does he really adopt the the proposed dogma?

My answer has to be that while I might disagree with what someone says, I must agree with the basic right to express their view.

Having recently disavowed all formal religious entities save true God, my Episcopalian upbringing still chimes in from time to time. Did the ultimate liberal, Jesus, force his beliefs on the Romans and Jews? The Romans certainly tried to beat theirs into Jesus.

[edited. ok, thats it, I’m giving in and going to go get some glasses]

[Edited on 9-12-2004 by Backlash]

[Psykos]

Uhh,

Yea, beliefs can be forced on someone. I'm not even going to bother mentioning the thousands of examples in history. I think you maybe need to rethink that statement. I used to attend a fairly liberal school and any "conservative" papers were deemed unholy and demonic. Grades were lower for those who chose the conservative route, and that, my friend is forcing opinions on others.

[Back]

Originally posted by Psykos
Uhh,

Yea, beliefs can be forced on someone. I'm not even going to bother mentioning the thousands of examples in history. I think you maybe need to rethink that statement. I used to attend a fairly liberal school and any "conservative" papers were deemed unholy and demonic. Grades were lower for those who chose the conservative route, and that, my friend is forcing opinions on others.

Well... they may have been forced, but in your case they didn’t stick, which was one of my points.

Just like if you read any post here, you are forced to confront what may be a conflict of your own values.

Does reading someone’s opinion change mine? Not drastically, but in some cases they do slightly. Ultimately how often that occurs, and to what degree, is left to the individual.

I agree that beliefs can be forced, but I don’t think they can be forced to the point of acceptance.

[Warriorbird]

Er. Where the hell did you go to school? Sure nothing near to what I've ever experienced. Unholy and demonic seem more like something a fundamentalist would say about a paper advocating euthanasia or abortion.

[Psykos]

I went to UVA, and trust me... the professors are very liberal and anything not in their scope of liberalism is deemed very unholy.

[HarmNone]

I'm probably one of the more polictically liberal people on these boards. Yet, I think you can probably search for the next week and a half and not find any instance of me saying anything even approaching "your a fucking idiot, and your wrong no matter what you say". I stay out of most political discussions, unless they involve a point of specific interest to me. If I do get involved, it is not to denegrate the beliefs of another, but to engage in a discussion of how, and why, my views might differ from theirs. Doing so is not an effort to force my views on anyone. It is more in the interests of understanding and communication.

HarmNone

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Psykos
I went to UVA, and trust me... the professors are very liberal and anything not in their scope of liberalism is deemed very unholy.

That's odd considering it's been 40 years since a democratic presidential candidate has won Virginia.

But a few are hoping to change that:

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=39900&paper=62&cat=109

[i remember halloween]

the biggest problem with liberalism is people like michael moore who draw out these fanatical retards like the people protesting the RNC. no body, liberal or conservative, with any real sense can look at these idiots and not see a bunch of clueless morons. they hurt their cause by acting like a bunch of uncivilized animals and just piss people off. they obviously aren't going to get much sympathy for their cause when everyone who isn't one of them hates them.

I completely agree they are idiots, but its horrible that there is a chunk of the left wing that take these people seriously.

- Arkans

[Back]

This is going to piss a few people off. Why? Because they’ll realize that were all in this together. Oh yeah, and its posted on Michael Moore’s site. Its just so good I had to post it again. Enjoy.

August 29th, 2004 9:38 pm
Day in the Life of Joe Middle-Class Republican (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/index.php?id=144)
by John Gray

Joe gets up at 6:00am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and work as advertised.

All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employers medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe’s bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

Joe takes his morning shower reaching for his shampoo; His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medicals benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe’s employer pays these standards because Joe’s employer doesn’t want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he’ll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some liberal didn’t think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

Its noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe’s deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe’s money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten Mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his life-time.

Joe is home from work, he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dads; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn’t want to make rural loans. The house didn’t have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn’t belong and demanded rural electrification. (Those rural Republican’s would still be sitting in the dark)

He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn’t have to. After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home.

He turns on a radio talk show, the host’s keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. (He doesn’t tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day) Joe agrees, “We don’t need those big government liberals ruining our lives; after all, I’m a self made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have”.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Yet, I think you can probably search for the next week and a half and not find any instance of me saying anything even approaching "your a fucking idiot, and your wrong no matter what you say"

Weren't you saying something along those lines to Bob in another thread because of his age?

[Edited on 9-12-2004 by ThisOtherKingdom]

[HarmNone]

Nope. I said his opinion on the subject wasn't really relevant, since he is not adult, and the conversation involved adult matters. He is still entitled to his opinion and, for him (at this stage in his life), the opinion cannot be judged by me to be wrong. I can only judge it as wrong for me.

When discussing adult matters, most adults are not particularly interested in the opinion of children. It is a simple fact of life.

HarmNone

[Betheny]

I think there's two sides, here.

On one side, yes, liberals have fought for many of the rights we enjoy today.

On the other side, conservatives have also fought for a lot of the freedoms we enjoy today.

:shrug:

Joe pays more than half is pay in taxes so he can support some lazy liberal unwed mother.

- Arkans

[Back]

Originally posted by Arkans
Joe pays more than half is pay in taxes so he can support some lazy liberal unwed mother.

- Arkans

Yeah, and where is the asshole who knocked her up then took off?

[Back]

Originally posted by Arkans
Joe pays more than half is pay in taxes so he can support some lazy liberal unwed mother.

- Arkans

And another thing. Your figures are waaaay off.

Warresisters.org (http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm)

[MrThorbizzle]

Slider, I don't think anyone has a problem with anyone having conservative, religious beliefs...

But when did the Republicans hijack it, and now conservative/religious = war in Iraq and Afghanistan? It's bull man.

What happened to isolationism...Pat Buchanan, there's a conservative. Too bad he can't get any votes and people think he's a Nazi.

Perhaps she should keep her legs closed.

Not speaking about USA, per se, but a lot of liberals have a hard on for Europe. Europe is notorious in taxing people to kingdom come.

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Arkans
Perhaps she should keep her legs closed.


Perhaps he should keep his dick in his pants. :wtf:

Sorry but I hate that nasty statement.

It's not him having the kid, is it?

- Arkans

[Valthissa]

Originally posted by Backlash


Raven posted a link to PoliticalCompass.org (http://www.politicalcompass.org) a while back. I tried the test again this afternoon, and again, fell in the same quadrant with the likes of Gandhi, The Dali Lama, and Nelson Mandela. But it turns out I am only really moderate, leaning slightly liberal socially and economically.



Glad some people are still using the political compass. I brought that to PC in the hopes that some people would adopt a broader view in the liberal/conservative discussons that seem to take place on this board.

The current attempt by Republicans to turn the word liberal into an epithet doesn't reflect very well on the party of Lincoln.

I think some of what Slider says is valid in the sense that many mainstream media outlets seem to have predetermined positions.

C/Valth

Can anyone make the case why Bush deserves to be re-relected based on his first term accomplishments?

[Back]

Originally posted by Arkans
It's not him having the kid, is it?

- Arkans

Nope. Its him abadoning his offspring. A man takes care of his family.

[DeV]

His sperm fertilized the egg. It's both their problem.

It wouldn't have if she kept her legs closed.

- Arkans

[DeV]

Or if he was infertile.

[CrystalTears]

And his dick in his pants.

[Psykos]

:club:

Liberals suck.

I'm tired of all the liberals thinking that Kerry is actually a liberal, and that he's going to win this election. I can't wait -- Only a few more months left till all the college kiddies get their eyes opened, again.

Psykos

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Valthissa
Can anyone make the case why Bush deserves to be re-relected based on his first term accomplishments?Talk about derailing a thread. Lousy liberals!!!1

I wish people would stop thinking all college kids are liberals.

[Ravenstorm]

Or that only college kids are liberals. Or that only liberals want Bush out of office. Half the country has that distinction.

Raven

[Latrinsorm]

That too, but that doesn't bother me as much on account of me not being any of those.

[i remember halloween]

unregard

[Edited on 9-13-2004 by i remember halloween]

:saint:

[Tsa`ah]

You ask this question of liberal minded people when you have such dazzling displays of conservative thought in this very thread?

Liberals suck because they are all obviously communists.

- Arkans

[Back]

Originally posted by Arkans
Liberals suck because they are all obviously communists.

- Arkans

The need to categorically demonize sounds a lot like fascism.