Half-elf smite runestaff cleric training help! [Archive]

emb317

01-10-2014, 09:08 PM

BUMP!

All right.

So here's where I stand. Right now I'm trying to get her to 20 before my training grace period ends and right before that happens, adjust my stat/skills so she's better primed to be a pure caster and ultimately down the road, a rescuer.

She just hit 14 so I should be fine. I've been training her and adjusted her stats just to get her to 20 as quickly as possible, so right now she's hunting with 2-handeds and not doing too much casting at all, so I fully anticipate adjusting pretty much everything before my training grace period ends.

But now my question is...what should my stats and skills be as a half-elf pure cleric?

Here are my starting stats and current skills:
Level 0 Stats for Naimi, Half-Elf Cleric

Strength (STR): 75
Constitution (CON): 60
Dexterity (DEX): 70
Agility (AGI): 70
Discipline (DIS): 80
Aura (AUR): 80
Logic (LOG): 75
Intuition (INT): 60
Wisdom (WIS): 70
Influence (INF): 20

Naimi (at level 14), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 74 16
Physical Fitness...................| 74 16
Harness Power......................| 90 20
Spirit Mana Control................| 96 22
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 15 3
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 45 9
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 10 2
Perception.........................| 5 1

Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 8

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 7

Spell Lists
Cleric.............................| 22

Would love advice on how I should move things around once I hit 20.

Thanks!

Danaandim

01-14-2014, 04:51 PM

Naimi,

Many clerics swing until 40 trains or so before shifting to pure caster, because as you now know, mana supply is low and demands are high.
As clerics have decent protective spells available, you can get away with THW without taking too much damage. I nevertheless like long
hunts so I was blunt and board as I had access to an eonake mace which was permabless in my hands. I planned from the start to go Voln
and so hunted a lot of undead.

I used the Stat Cruncher to plan stats and was willing to live with my choices as long as I ended up with a lot of 100 stats at cap, and so wouldn't have to use bounty points or a ton of silvers for a fixstat. At cap, my giant cleric is straight 100s except for CON.

Stat Cruncher: http://home.mchsi.com/~cphillips73/StatCruncher/GS4/StatCruncher.html

The real choice is between maxing out MTP generating stats early for maximum MTPs over the lifespan, or going for maxing TPs of both kinds. Maxing MTPs has its advantages as clerics end up converting thousands of PTP to MTP. On the other hand, maxing MTPs early means fewer PTP from stat advancement. As I went for max stats, that implies that I maxed general TPs.

Your stats currently will put you at cap:

Strength (STR): 100
Constitution (CON): 90
Dexterity (DEX): 87
Agility (AGI): 93
Discipline (DIS): 100
Aura (AUR): 98
Logic (LOG): 100
Intuition (INT): 98
Wisdom (WIS): 100
Influence (INF): 77

Tweaking stats further to improve MTP generating stats: At 0/At cap

Strength (STR): 55/92
Constitution (CON): 60/90
Dexterity (DEX): 70/87
Agility (AGI): 79/100
Discipline (DIS): 68/100
Aura (AUR): 82/100
Logic (LOG): 62/100
Intuition (INT): 62/100
Wisdom (WIS): 70/100
Influence (INF): 52/90

Hope this helps a bit!

Danaandim

emb317

01-15-2014, 02:16 PM

Whirlin

01-15-2014, 02:36 PM

Dan's advice isn't far off. My personal cleric is still only level 38. I'll tell you a little bit about that.

The only reason I rolled a cleric is because Whirlin was working on Alchemical Trinkets, because I hate myself, life, and the general universe, and for some reason I thought that I'd add a lot of value to myself, my general wellbeing, and potentially my epeen size by mastering alchemy. As a result of alchemical trinkets training, I had about 5000, give or take two million, 906, 907, 908, and 910 wands/rods lying around. That's in excess of the dozens that I pick up while killing a few characters' Lumnis each week.

My cleric was built around bolting. Wand-holding runestaff, custom attack script to utilize it with bigshot, etc, etc. When I had the mana, I would attempt to smite. But there's a problem with that.

CS and TD's main factor is level. +3 CS and +3 TD per level. That eventually outpaces AS growth for most classes.

The problem is that the numbers are too low when you're low level. If you're level 20, and you get +1, that's a marginal increase of 5%. If you're level 50 and get +1, that's a marginal increase of 2%. As level increases, the relative contribution of the additional CS gained through leveling decreases.

Furthermore, the GS3 to GS4 conversion wasn't that well done at lower levels. As I'm sure you've noticed, critter AS tends to be hugely inflated versus a relatively insubstantial DS. On the TD side, TD tends to be relatively inflated at lower levels. The high influence of relative level difference doesn't help either.

Things begin to stabilize on the CS side around level 30-35ish. Even my cutover to Pure CS killing at 38 still feels a bit premature... I mean, it's doable, but I still wish I had a cache of wands.

All of that aside, to address your ACTUAL questions, and reflect on your build:
Aura doesn't need to be THAT great. At level 18, you can get up to 25 ranks of Cleric spells, which will improve the Raise Dead spell to only cost 50% of spirit rather than 75%. Clerics are probably one of the best classes for setting your stats for growth.
Your MjS is a bit low for warclericing. While MnS is nice, 107 isn't really necessary until you start fighting caster critters later on. I'd drop MnS down to 3 ranks, and use those ranks towards MjS to get 211 and 215.
I'd drop Harness Power down to @ level... Unless you're like, 1-2 mana off of an additional mana recovery on/off node, in which case pre-train a rank or two.
Spirit mana control is also overleveled, but I assume that is to prepare for raise dead at 18.
Consider dropping lores entirely on the short term for Combat Maneuvers. Now that armor use is out of the way, you'll have a lot more discretionary TP/level. The CMAN will help your melee AS.

We'll be getting our annual fixskills in about 3-4 months. By that time, you should be mid-30s... potentially higher, and in a great position to swap over to pure.

Asrial

01-15-2014, 08:42 PM

Thanks for the info.

I think I'd rather focus everything into casting sooner rather than later, just because I'm already behind on spells and THW is EXPENSIVE.

Also, re the stats: shouldn't I want to have Aura higher so I can have 10 spirit points by the time I start raising at 18?The spirit cost for 318 is 75% of the target's spirit, rounded up (actually, I can't remember if .25 rounds down or not; to play it safe, go with it rounds up unless someone says otherwise).

11 = 9 spirit lost
10 = 8 spirit lost
09 = 7 spirit lost
08 = 6 spirit lost
07 = 6 spirit lost
06 = 5 spirit lost

There's been many successful clerics that raised with 4 or 5 spirit. Eventually it becomes a non-issue as you get up to 325 (50%) and 340 (25% I think).

Regarding being behind spells...

You don't NEED to be fully 2x'ed in spells. In fact, you don't need to be spell centric until your 70's.

I was at ~8 ranks under 2x spells until I hit a brick wall in Maaghara Tower (late 60's). At that point I switched to being fully 2x'ed in spells, and also powered up harness power and mana control to fuel 240 use. Being in CoL is a must for wracking, if this is the route you intend to go.

I was trained in edged and CM. I stopped using it though, pretty early on, and it was a throwback to the old days where you didn't have a fixskills.. and there was an undead gap that required you to weapon hunt pyrothags and the like.

Just saying.. you don't NEED 2x spell training to competently hunt.

..and just to toss in some actual stats..

At level 100 I have 203 spell ranks. I have never had an issue spell hunting (invasions are another thing).

On the other hand.. I have 202 ranks of harness power and 180 ranks of spirit mana control. I've yet to train in them since hitting 100. The intent was to keep 240 going an entire hunt, using CoL wracking to keep it fueled.

Whirlin

01-16-2014, 12:02 PM

I'm not sure of your point. Clerics don't NEED any training beyond 18 cleric spells and 24 ranks of SMC to cap.

Lets compare.

At level 60, if you're 2x Harness power, that's 64 mana at the cost of 504 MTP. At 8 ranks under 2x, that would be 23.75 spell research ranks.

If we cut your SMC down to 1x from 1.8x at level 60, that would be a recovery of 48 ranks at 0/6 for 288 MTP or 9 spell research ranks.
Per seed 5 summation, that would reduce 240 potential second cast by -3 CS . (from +13 down to +10).

Now lets look at spell research. Given that you had 240 at level 60, and not a full 2x spells, I'll go ahead and assume 120 was unlocked, and that the remainder put towards Cleric circle, which would be 56 ranks in cleric circle. If all 32.75 spell research ranks were dedicated towards cleric circle, that would generate an additional +23 CS (4 ranks at +1, 20 ranks at +75, 8 ranks at +.5).

The 240 build's +64 mana and +48 SMC ranks generate an additional +13 mana per pulse outside of a node, and +20 mana per pulse in a node. We'll say a pulse is every 2 minutes. So that lowers the effective cost of 240 from 80 per minute down to 73.5 mana per minute reduced from your mana pool for hunting. Almost 1 free minute as well with the max mana though. Given the 30 second duration, that allows for 9 additional casts. Even if we assume 100% double cast success rate, that's over 4 mana per cast before it becomes mana efficient. at 4 mana a cast, you're looking at spending 152 mana a minute (4*9+40)*2. You're looking at a 244 max mana pool with your build, so with 1 tick of regen at 40 mana, you're looking at just shy of 2 minutes of real hunting time.

Asrial

01-16-2014, 01:14 PM

While your math is impressive, you missed a key fact about the route I chose: CoL with a guaranteed 2 wracks a hunt.

Also, she said, and I quote, "..because I'm already behind on spells" to which I basically replied, "it's not that big an issue."

I keep re-reading your post and I just can't find the debating point. I get the feeling you don't find my build very efficient? The numbers you're throwing out have this feeling of building towards negativity (if that makes sense).

At level 68 I was getting to be too old for Skull Temple and so I was starting in Maaghara Tower.

I was 1x edged and CM, armor up to brigandine (still am), 5 ranks of mstrike (still got those too), less than 2x spells (~8 ranks or so), 1x HP, 24 ranks of SMC (or maybe 1x, I don't remember), and various other skills.

I hit a brick wall. I certainly couldn't weapon hunt in the Tower, and my spells weren't doing much. I was getting pretty frustrated and dying a lot. A change was needed.

..but what change?

The rage at the time was 3x spells, but it was such a commitment. Plus, I preferred going my own route instead of some cookie cutter path.

So instead of 3x spells.. I went to 21 over level in cleric, 240 and the rest in minor (full 2x now; I think I took it to 120 initially and let it continue at 1x (cleric) for a while before going to 130 and 140), and hit harness power and SMC hard with the intention to keep up 240 as much as possible.

..and you know what? It worked. I was now ending hunts in 1-2 minutes (depending on creature availability) and dying much, much less. Further, I really liked it. I didn't feel like everything was being dumped into spells. I still had my 5 ranks of mstrike, I still had my armor ranks, I still had some stalking and hiding and my lores and everything else.

I transitioned to the aquaducts and a bit into OTF proper, before moving to Nelemar at 85.

I have not, at any point, had any difficulty in hunting and you see I'm still only 2x spells.

Prior to Maaghara Tower I would have a few tough spots, but those were taken care of by getting a few levels.

Again, I can't tell the exact purpose of your math. I don't know what you're comparing to. My thought is that you disagree with a 240 build?

The point of my post was to indicate that you don't need to be 2x spells to hunt (a direct reply to her comment about spells), because I have proven that you can get to level 65-70 with a less than optimal build.

I then provided a build that probably isn't the best, but works completely fine and is an alternative to dumping everything into spells.

..and just to make sure here, the biggest disclaimer I always have is.. I've been CoL since the beginning. Though, I was a Voln cleric back in the day so I know you can still get to the 60's without too much frustration.

emb317

01-19-2014, 05:32 PM

Thanks all for the input.

So I guess if I move around some skills a bit and just aim to fixskills in a few months, that still leaves me in the position of how to fix my stats. I didn't have a lot of play time this week due to work so am still only 16, and lose my training grace period in just a few days. I think I may make it to 18 if I'm lucky.

If I were to go the route of staying 2HW for now and moving over to being a caster at my fixskills time, I still need to prepare my stats for that (and to be a good solid raising cleric in a few trains.) How should i go about that?

Asrial

01-19-2014, 08:44 PM

Nami, do you want to train for max stats at 100? You really have to try hard to screw up stat training.

STR -- dragging, encumbrance limits, shield DS and parry DS

CON -- health and crit protection

DEX -- bolt AS

AGI -- evade DS

DIS -- important for getting training points from BOTH sides

AUR -- important for getting training points from BOTH sides, spirit and elemental TD

LOG -- think this one is the one for how fast you absorb

INT -- ..and this one is the one for how much you can hold

WIS -- CS and spiritual TD

INF -- how pretty you are once the makeup comes off

Jeril

01-20-2014, 02:02 AM

How much your mind can hold is 800 + DIS stat + LOG stat. INT is only important for a cleric because it is a prime stat, so you get double TPs for it. AUR is elemental TD, and the average of your AUR and WIS is your sorcerer TD. INF actually plays a role in the bonus you get from 340, I am too lazy to look it up though. CON also plays a roll in encumbrance because it affects the 'weight' of your character. I've talked to several clerics and I've heard of CON, INT, and INF all being tanked. WIS and DIS also help you regain mana when meditating, and DIS helps with some of the alchemy tasks.

masterdtwin

01-21-2014, 11:29 AM

Naomi...

Pure casting is not exactly difficult at lower levels - you just have to have a little patience when it comes to mana. I made a sylvan cleric, and as a pure caster hunted her from level 6 on. Was it slightly painful, absolutely - but since you're already 14 you shouldn't have nearly the issues that you would have at lower levels.

First off if you are going for a pure (302) caster, you have to decide two things. Will you be Channeling or incanting? Will you be defensive or Offensive? Channeling increases your damage, an offensive stance increases your damage, and Channeling in an offensive stance increases your damage even more.

If you plan on using a runestaff, going full offensive is not a good idea as your DS will be low enough in an offensive stance to make you easy to kill. The other option (and better IMO) is using a shield and playing as though you were going full offensive.

Here are the stats that I would recommend (assuming you can still change them):

Stat | Base | lvl 20 | lvl 50 | lvl 72 | lvl 100
STR | 52 | 62 | 73 | 81 | 90
CON | 58 | 65 | 75 | 83 | 90
DEX | 74 | 77 | 82 | 86 | 90
AGL | 78 | 83 | 90 | 94 | 100
DIS | 50 | 60 | 73 | 81 | 90
AUR | 82 | 86 | 92 | 96 | 100
LOG | 62 | 72 | 83 | 91 | 100
INT | 62 | 72 | 83 | 91 | 100
WIS | 72 | 82 | 94 | 100 | 100
INF | 70 | 76 | 86 | 93 | 100

These stats fulfill a few key requirements:

1. It provides for great growth of the stats so you are able to have great stats in the end
2. It focuses on your primary (mental) stats so you still have good TP's
3. Your Primary stat is relatively high so you don't sacrifice very much CS bonus
4. Your Aura is high, so you will have 9 spirit by level 15 - great for raising the dead at level 18

On to training.

If you are going pure caster you should have the following base:

General (this is a handy rule of thumb for all characters):
1x PT (to 50 ranks)
1x Climbing (to 50 ranks)
1x Swimming (to 50 ranks)
1x Perception (to 50 ranks)

Armor:
8 Armor use Ranks (for Double Leathers without hinderance) *Edited to correct the number of armor ranks*

Pure Caster Training Base:
1x MIU
1x AS
1x SMC (to 50 ranks)
1x Spiritual Lore: Religion (to 40 ranks)
2x Harness power (to 100 ranks)
1x Cleric Base (match level, for life)

General Cleric Training:
1x or 2x First Aid (I recommend 2x for skinning purposes)

A little explanation on each of the suggestions:
General Skills will essentially allow you to move around the world and hunt anywhere you need to. It provides a decent base of maneuver defense, stamina, and maxes your HP. Some people recommend 1x in PT for life, that's your call and is certainly a valid and good choice.
Spiritual Lore: Religion - This is one of the single greatest things you can do to upgrade the power on your smite/bane. at 40 ranks, (if I remember correctly) it hits 14% bonus crit kill chance. You could easily go more and increase the %, but you're stuck at a 10rank:1% increase. I find it a better Idea to either start training in a different lore for utility in spells, or to get more spells
Spiritual Mana Control to 50 ranks This should be relatively self-explanatory. There is very little to no benefit after 50 ranks except for aiding in mana infusion into smite/bane. Fortunately once you hit 50 ranks the benefit of versatility provided by extra spell training tends to outweigh the benefits of SMC/lores/etc.
Cleric Base Spells Specifically matching level, and not 1x. at 1x you would always have 1 spell training higher than your level. Unless you intend to completely ignore MnS and MjE (which is well... just plain odd) there is no benefit to having spell trainings over your current level. Use that extra 1 to get a MnS or MjS instead. 1x spell base also gives you a 4:3 ratio of CS to TD. After about level 30 or so you start being significantly ahead of the TD of your monsters making hunting pretty ridiculous

-----

Beyond that you still have points remaining [even more so if you chose to fore-go first aid for whatever reason (it's cheap, so it's a good idea)]. You can choose to go 1x in shield usage or pump your points into extra spell training.

Offensive + channeling = Shield training
Offensive + incanting = Runestaff /shield (you would be forced into guarded)
Defensive + channeling = runestaff (forced into guarded)

Once again, Offensive open-handed channeling produces the most damage, thus shield training becomes very useful. My cleric at 37 cannot be hit by anything her level in offensive, and prone. Mind you she has a pocket wizard and is a CoL master. That kind of offensive DS makes it almost impossible to die, especially when you are killing things in 2-3 smite/bane casts with a very nice crit kill%

The drawback to shield training is the lack of supporting spells. At 37, I'm at 81 spells (2.1x). The CS loss is negligable.

EDIT: Special note - You can very easily tank a spell or two for a few levels to get 24 SMC at level 18. Just make sure you don't train it up again until you hit level 24.

radeek

01-21-2014, 12:54 PM

I thought doubles for clerics only needed 8 ranks of armor training? I know that wizard and major elemental circle require 15, but not the spirit circles.

masterdtwin

01-21-2014, 01:32 PM

I thought doubles for clerics only needed 8 ranks of armor training? I know that wizard and major elemental circle require 15, but not the spirit circles.

It probably does, I think I was training for Leather breastplate at one point and got confused. Double Leathers is all you really need though.

Whirlin

01-21-2014, 01:47 PM

I thought doubles for clerics only needed 8 ranks of armor training? I know that wizard and major elemental circle require 15, but not the spirit circles.

Correct, the 8 trains are for maneuver penalty. The 15 for Wizards are due to the MjE/Wiz hindrance. Cleric, MjS, MnS circles do not have any hindrance in Doubles.

Asrial

01-21-2014, 02:12 PM

Cleric Base Spells Specifically matching level, and not 1x. at 1x you would always have 1 spell training higher than your level. Unless you intend to completely ignore MnS and MjE (which is well... just plain odd) there is no benefit to having spell trainings over your current level.I'm fairly positive that the extra point gives you 1 CS (.75 situations round up), but I do agree that it's the only benefit and not worth it over say getting a useful spell 1 level earlier (since all the cleric stuff is capped at level).

Jeril

01-21-2014, 06:26 PM

I'm fairly positive that the extra point gives you 1 CS (.75 situations round up), but I do agree that it's the only benefit and not worth it over say getting a useful spell 1 level earlier (since all the cleric stuff is capped at level).

This isn't quite true, the initial bonus from 307 and the bonus from 310 aren't capped by level(although they do have their own hard caps), so as a low level cleric once you have 103, and 202 you'd get more DS by over training cleric spells to reach 30 ranks then you do by training in either spirit circle.

Whirlin

01-21-2014, 07:31 PM

Stats: just aim them to max out for level 100:
STR 70
CON 65
DEX 86
AGL 78
DIS 68
AUR 82
LOG 62
INT 30
WIS 49
INF 70

This tanks both CON and INT, which will result as 94 and 85 respectively.

I assumed training would be for level 20, to make my life easy:
8 Ranks Armor use
5 Ranks Climbing/Swimming
20 ranks SMC, Harness Power
1x THW, CMAN, PF, Perception, Arcane Symbols, MIU,
2x Spell Research: 17 ranks MjS, 25 ranks Cleric, 3 ranks MnS.

Spell Research objectives:
Hit 219 MjS for Spirit Shield
Then train up MnS up to 120. No reason to go further in Cleric, you've unlocked a good tier of Raise, and MnS will give you more DS.

I know magic is your ultimate goal...
It's not stable at low levels, and not the most efficient hunting strategy on the short term. We get our annual fixstats in about 3 months. In that time, you can likely get to 40ish, when things will be greatly stabilized for CS based offense. On the short term, this build will allow you to be a powerful hunter, while being able to raise effectively as well. Sure, you can't make Chrisms, but you can't make perfect ones til 51 anyway.

Your current melee build is missing the CMAN and 211/215, you'll see a substantial AS increase with this build, and it will be effective, easy hunting.

masterdtwin

01-22-2014, 03:45 PM

I know magic is your ultimate goal...
It's not stable at low levels, and not the most efficient hunting strategy on the short term. We get our annual fixstats in about 3 months. In that time, you can likely get to 40ish, when things will be greatly stabilized for CS based offense. On the short term, this build will allow you to be a powerful hunter, while being able to raise effectively as well. Sure, you can't make Chrisms, but you can't make perfect ones til 51 anyway.

I don't know why you insist that low-level hunting with magic is such a painstaking effort. My cleric was smite hunting starting at level 6, and I had no issues getting her to fry. She is already level 14, which at 2x harness power that gives her 63 mana (based on the level and stats that were given). That is honestly more than enough mana to hunt with. Is it ideal? no, but this concept that pure hunting at low levels is so incredibly unbearable rather infuriates me. I have low-level pure-cast hunted from level 6 (up until level 6 I turn iron into Jack) a cleric, wizard (twice), and sorcerer. It is not hard. I'm not going to say that it's ridiculously easy, you have to actually stay on top of things to fry up properly and maintain it. The very early levels go by so quickly once you get a fry that you can get to level 9 almost before your second GoL ends.

As I stated my cleric is 37... According to you I still shouldn't be pure-hunting, but I've actually run into issues where I HAVE TOO MUCH MANA. I actually started opening with 312 to get better results on skinning. I essentially have excess mana because I fry and stay fried so quickly. My level 15 wizard can almost fry (sometimes he can, sometimes he can't) from Clear on just his mana. The same holds true for my level 16 Sorcerer. Now... I have not tried an Empath. I do not expect that I would be able to hunt with an empath in that manner

I'm not trying to throw out my e-peen and say I'm better than you because I can do it - I'm simply trying to say It's not that hard, and the general consensus that low-level pure hunting is akin to the tribulations of Sisyphus rather infuriates me.

Donquix

01-22-2014, 07:15 PM

No one said you "can't" do it.

Everyone said it sucks and is less efficient than just swinging. And it is.

Nothing in gs is "hard"

Jeril

01-22-2014, 07:47 PM

No one said you "can't" do it.

Everyone said it sucks and is less efficient than just swinging. And it is.

Nothing in gs is "hard"

I don't know about that. When swinging a weapon you run into encumbrance unless you are hunting something dirt poor, you also just have the basic swing time of 5 seconds vs casting which is 3 seconds. You might be limited by mana but it is simple enough to run back to a node(Where you absorb faster) and regain mana.

When you have absolutely no clue what you are doing or just don't have any patience, swinging is certainly easier, but being able to hunt effectively and competitively as a pure from level 1( or 2 for clerics) is very doable, especially with the first 30 days quick migration.

Donquix

01-23-2014, 02:56 AM

I don't know about that. When swinging a weapon you run into encumbrance unless you are hunting something dirt poor, you also just have the basic swing time of 5 seconds vs casting which is 3 seconds. You might be limited by mana but it is simple enough to run back to a node(Where you absorb faster) and regain mana.

When you have absolutely no clue what you are doing or just don't have any patience, swinging is certainly easier, but being able to hunt effectively and competitively as a pure from level 1( or 2 for clerics) is very doable, especially with the first 30 days quick migration.

Again, it's perfectly doable. But swinging is just always easier and more efficient. I think the 30's is a bit of an exaggeration for when things even out abit, i feel like it's more in the 20ish range depending on class. Encumbrance isn't really a big deal early especially if you're in the first 30 and maxed on STR/CON/etc. You get one bad string of casts early and you're hunt is pretty much over, you get a few bad rolls on swings and you uh...do it again. It's also hard to argue with using a claid early and getting a free +40 points of weighting...it really is like cheating in the early levels.

Lich (specifically go2) certainly makes casting early levels easier, being able to pop to a node in literally 2 seconds regardless of where you are helps a lot. Can you imagine if they never put in the change to randomize mana pulses? :D
if <time to pulse> < 5
;go2 <node>
waitfor pulse
;go2 <room i just left>

teh h4x

edit: forgot to say i think it is fairly class dependent as well. Empaths i think are one of the easiest i think early, wizards always seemed more cumbersome early to level pure, i guess because of being susceptible not to just warding but also EPB. But then they get haste early so it's even harder to pass up swinging during the formative levels.

Whirlin

01-23-2014, 10:11 AM

Pulse times are variable between 1:30 and 2:30 though. Not as simple as it used to be to go back to a node to grab the pulse, and run back out. HOWEVER, Sloot# sell, and disks can help you clean out your encumbrance quickly to get back out hunting if you pick up a box. Hell, easily enough configured in bigshot!

I had a customized hunting script set up for my Cleric starting from level 1. It would default to 302 if I had mana, and if I wasn't fried, it would use a wand at low mana to supplement my hunt. Wand holding runestaff script, ensorcelled staff, etc.

I burned through about 1000 alchemical wands leveling up to 30ish (I realize this sounds like an exaggeration, but it was literally every wand I made with Whirlin, starting at Golden Wands, all through 910 wands to cap Alchemical Trinkets). After 30, I burned only about 10 wands a level or so... the rate greatly decreased, even though the xp/level was increasing. Post 35, I found myself simply not using the wands anymore to complete my hunts, unless I was starting from clear as a bell.

Given the flat AS bonuses of 307, 211, 215, a melee cleric is amazing at low levels, even if they're not 2x weapons. Anyone familiar with my guides know about the warmage AS Slowdown due to 425 maxing out... the same applies to melee clerics due to their flat bonuses. They just get ridiculous flat bonuses.

What also hasn't been mentioned is that this is entirely short term! I'm not arguing that pure clerics aren't awesome. Not arguing that melee clerics are good post-40. I'm arguing for the first 4 months of a cleric's long long life, melee builds are wonderfully effective, you aren't limited by mana, and are likely the most efficient way to gain XP, while still allowing for full Cleric raising capability. I'd argue for beginning Wizards, if their eventual goal is a bolting build, they should start off being ranged for a few months... assuming they have a fixskills coming.

Jeril

01-23-2014, 10:34 AM

I'd argue for beginning Wizards, if their eventual goal is a bolting build, they should start off being ranged for a few months... assuming they have a fixskills coming.

Every new character created now starts with a fixskills.

This a character I've just created within the past week.

>fixskills
The FIXSKILLS command will allow you to instantly set your skills to match your goals. Use the GOALS command to set your skills to your desired values FIRST!

You may view FIXSKILLS HELP for more information on this option.

To use FIXSKILLS, you must type FIXSKILL CONFIRM within the next 30 seconds.

*** No additional options will be granted outside of normal parameters for misuse. ***

** Make sure your skills are set how you want them with GOALS before using FIXSKILLS CONFIRM **

Whirlin

01-23-2014, 10:37 AM

Thanks, wasn't sure if that was universal after the 30 day. I rolled my cleric up about 32 days before the last annual fixskills (not on accident), and I just kinda held onto the fixskills til I was high enough level to drop the spell aiming to pick up 2x lores to start pumping out full chrisms.

masterdtwin

01-23-2014, 10:46 AM

I'm honestly confused as to what kind of hunting you are doing that requires you to burn through so many wands. My little wizard (15) doesn't use wands at all. In fact, I don't remember ever using wands with him at all (except occasionally).

Fact is, pure hunting even at low levels is still quite efficient. You have to be smart about where you hunt and what you do - but that rule applies to every class/spec anyways.

One variable discussed was maximizing your str/dex/con in order to make low-level hunting easier with swinging compared to hunting as a pure. This variable or point is useless as you can do the exact same thing by maximizing your dex (bolting), aura/wisdom (sorcerer CS), or wisdom (empath/cleric CS) to get the same effect. In the case of CS spells this is actually MORE effective because of the incredible scaling of most CS-based spells (+1 endroll bonus on most CS spells is worth more than +1 AS).

The next discussion is efficiency. Even if encumberance isn't a much of concern because of STR/CON bonuses being high, you are still a) relying on outside help via disks b) stance dancing thus more prone to death c) Going to run into encumberance issues that effect your RT, thus slowing you down. So, in terms of effeciency the discussion was - running back and using ;sloot to sell stuff quickly, or using ;bigshot to make it faster. The major hiccup for pure-casters is the lack of mana, which if you include using lich scripts, makes it ridiculously efficient to be a pure-caster. Run out of mana, go back sell, rest up till you're good, go back out.

Contrary to popular belief, you don't actually have to fry on your first hunt to be efficient. All you are doing is essentially sacrificing the first 10 minutes of your hunting sessions, or using wands/other things to cover the gap. Once you get into the rhythm you run out, blow all your mana, and run back - you will be fried and resting, thus pulling incredible exp. It is extremely efficient.

I seriously think this is almost something that should be tested, because I honestly don't think there is much difference in terms of efficiency or speed. Perhaps it is simply easier for people who don't have a solid understanding of casters, which is why it is recommended - But I can't honestly believe it is any less effective to be a pure-caster from birth to level 20, compared to being a swinger (2H or otherwise).

Whirlin

01-23-2014, 11:14 AM

I'm honestly confused as to what kind of hunting you are doing that requires you to burn through so many wands. My little wizard (15) doesn't use wands at all. In fact, I don't remember ever using wands with him at all (except occasionally).

This is not a wizard thread, it is a cleric thread. The two classes are very different. You're not getting the same bonuses against Firephantoms and other creatures as a cleric. Furthermore, 215, 211, and 307 increases to AS outweigh 509's increase. Additionally, we're not talking about Bolts, we're talking about CS. The two calculations scale VERY differently, and were handled differently in the GS3 to GS4.

Fact is, pure hunting even at low levels is still quite efficient. You have to be smart about where you hunt and what you do - but that rule applies to every class/spec anyways.

One variable discussed was maximizing your str/dex/con in order to make low-level hunting easier with swinging compared to hunting as a pure. This variable or point is useless as you can do the exact same thing by maximizing your dex (bolting), aura/wisdom (sorcerer CS), or wisdom (empath/cleric CS) to get the same effect. In the case of CS spells this is actually MORE effective because of the incredible scaling of most CS-based spells (+1 endroll bonus on most CS spells is worth more than +1 AS).

If you're placing your stats for growth, your melee related stats will start off higher at lower levels due to the reduced GIs of the pure classes. We're talking post-30 days, not pre-30.

The next discussion is efficiency. Even if encumberance isn't a much of concern because of STR/CON bonuses being high, you are still a) relying on outside help via disks b) stance dancing thus more prone to death c) Going to run into encumberance issues that effect your RT, thus slowing you down. So, in terms of effeciency the discussion was - running back and using ;sloot to sell stuff quickly, or using ;bigshot to make it faster. The major hiccup for pure-casters is the lack of mana, which if you include using lich scripts, makes it ridiculously efficient to be a pure-caster. Run out of mana, go back sell, rest up till you're good, go back out.

Not sure what you're talking about related to stance dancing. While Semis and Squares need to stance dance at lower levels, the flat bonuses associated with a pure's defensive spells are so high, that when pared with a THW parry calculation, pures can simply sit in offensive and swing away at a much earlier level.

Contrary to popular belief, you don't actually have to fry on your first hunt to be efficient. All you are doing is essentially sacrificing the first 10 minutes of your hunting sessions, or using wands/other things to cover the gap. Once you get into the rhythm you run out, blow all your mana, and run back - you will be fried and resting, thus pulling incredible exp. It is extremely efficient.
Frying on your first hunt will make you more efficient. An 8 minute break one you've gotten to muddled, and again when you've just gotten to numb is not efficient. All subsequent hunts post-fried can be done in a similar fashion, regardless of build. XP absorption is based off of XP in your mind, getting Fried faster = absorbing more.

I seriously think this is almost something that should be tested, because I honestly don't think there is much difference in terms of efficiency or speed. Perhaps it is simply easier for people who don't have a solid understanding of casters, which is why it is recommended - But I can't honestly believe it is any less effective to be a pure-caster from birth to level 20, compared to being a swinger (2H or otherwise).
Your arguments are Wizard-centric. Clerics are not wizards. A pure cleric is going to rely on CS calculations rather than AS calculations. Creature migrations were not handled consistently from the GS3 to GS4 migration for defensive values. DS values are artificially low until the 30s/40s for creatures, TD values run high until the 30s/40s due to the direct correlation to level. That's why my cleric did spell aiming and wands, and relied so heavily on them. Because a AS based Bolt is infinitely more effective than a CS cast at those levels. Yes, I could have gone back to town and rested, and spent 4 pulses on a node, at muddled, or complete my hunt, spend 4 pulses in town at must rest, and gain more XP.

Jeril

01-23-2014, 11:28 AM

Whirlin

01-23-2014, 11:34 AM

I had no problem hunting my empath at level 20 as a CS caster, even being somewhat lazy about it I was able to maintain a 2.3k/hr exp average easily. I hunted him as a pure from day 1, but 20 is when he was out of his 30 day migration period. I don't see why a cleric wouldn't be able to do the same. It also shouldn't be taking a cleric 4 pulses to go from 0 to full mana, eat mana bread and meditate :P

Yeah, I was writing off meditate because I figured you'd use that mana towards keeping spells up. Even with the duration changes, it's still a bunch of mana to do one cast of each. Especially once you've unlocked 219.

Jeril

01-23-2014, 11:36 AM

Yeah, I was writing off meditate because I figured you'd use that mana towards keeping spells up. Even with the duration changes, it's still a bunch of mana to do one cast of each. Especially once you've unlocked 219.

Spell up after finishing a bounty while you are saturated? Also if you go the CS route you go CoL, mana for spelling up isn't really an issue.

Donquix

01-23-2014, 03:47 PM

I did forget about the new duration changes...those are actually pretty damn huge for pure viability in the early levels.

Contrary to popular belief, you don't actually have to fry on your first hunt to be efficient. All you are doing is essentially sacrificing the first 10 minutes of your hunting sessions, or using wands/other things to cover the gap. Once you get into the rhythm you run out, blow all your mana, and run back - you will be fried and resting, thus pulling incredible exp. It is extremely efficient.

It is also extremely the same process as swinging. AS/DS calculations are more favorable to CS/TD early. A swing is 5 seconds versus soft cast at 3, but you get way more 1 shot kills with swinging early than casting. Not to mention with swinging you get the added option of being able to pay for more power. You can use wands for casting sure and i you're using a runestaff there's flares now, but if you have the money to drop it's hard to replicate the increase in power you get from a mid-high enchant weighted/flaring weapon versus options for casters.

And again, specifically for the first 30 days....claid. Just...claid.

masterdtwin

01-24-2014, 10:39 AM

Yeah, I was writing off meditate because I figured you'd use that mana towards keeping spells up. Even with the duration changes, it's still a bunch of mana to do one cast of each. Especially once you've unlocked 219.

By the time you've unlocked 219 however you should not have any mana issues for hunting purposes. at level 19, even with crappy stats and generic base training you will still have 60 mana. At level 38, my cleric still really need more than 60 mana to fry from CAAB. Granted, I don't generally let her go below muddled/numbed (whichever is lower).

Frying on your first hunt will make you more efficient. An 8 minute break one you've gotten to muddled, and again when you've just gotten to numb is not efficient. All subsequent hunts post-fried can be done in a similar fashion, regardless of build. XP absorption is based off of XP in your mind, getting Fried faster = absorbing more.

It's more efficient to never get to CAAB. The only time that happens is when I'm either switching a hunting area, or I'm forced to break away from the computer long enough. Honestly though if that happens, starting over is going to basically be the same if you're swinging or casting. I can't honestly believe that those 8-10 minutes are going to make that big of a difference in the long run.

If you're placing your stats for growth, your melee related stats will start off higher at lower levels due to the reduced GIs of the pure classes. We're talking post-30 days, not pre-30.

Someone specifically mentioned super-stacking stats pre-30 for the purposes of claidh hunting. That is what that comment was in reference to, the same could very easily be done for castings. Once again, a +25 CS bonus has a much greater impact that +25 AS bonus.

This is not a wizard thread, it is a cleric thread. The two classes are very different. You're not getting the same bonuses against Firephantoms and other creatures as a cleric. Furthermore, 215, 211, and 307 increases to AS outweigh 509's increase. Additionally, we're not talking about Bolts, we're talking about CS. The two calculations scale VERY differently, and were handled differently in the GS3 to GS4.

This is indeed a cleric thread. First, you mentioned wands which confused me - because I have only used wands with my wizard and sorcerer, not my cleric (because smite/bane is ridiculous, even at low levels). Secondly, there was discussion of melee hunting vs. pure hunting in general at low levels hence why I brought in other classes. Now, you bring up 307, which is absolutely great, but it's only 5AS at level 7, and does not increase fast enough to outpace the CS increase benefit (5 +1/2/lvl AS is not better than +1/lvl CS). Next you're talking 211, which is certainly better by far - but by level 11, you're starting to have enough mana and CS to not no longer need to leave a hunt before frying from CAAB. By the time you get to 215 (we <3 215), your CS would already be high enough that you're starting to out-pace your AS gains (From 15 on, your mana is high enough if you're doing 2x HP or more that you shouldn't have any mana issues using 302).

Let's do some numbers here, just for shits and giggles... Let's assume we're not using any outside spells. At level 10, we will consider a 4x weapon. In a pre-30 scenario where we can super-stack stats, and using a half-elf (no wisdom or str bonus) since that's what spurned this discussion. I'm starting at level 6, since that's when it starts being extremely difficult to get exp from turning in iron to Jack (most people probably still start WL is my guess). In addition to weapon training, I also assumed 1x in CM since we are maximizing our benefits.

- | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30
AS | 64 | 74 | 80 | 86 | 111 | 131 | 136 | 141 | 146 | 176 | 181 | 186 | 191 | 196 | 200 | 204 | 208 | 212 | 216 | 220 | 224 | 228 | 232 | 235 | 238
Bolt AS | 96 | 109 | 117 | 126 | 132 | 154 | 160 | 167 | 173 | 203 | 207 | 212 | 216 | 221 | 223 | 226 | 228 | 231 | 233 | 236 | 238 | 241 | 243 | 245 | 247
CS | 53 | 59 | 63 | 67 | 71 | 75 | 81 | 87 | 91 | 95 | 99 | 103 | 107 | 113 | 117 | 121 | 125 | 129 | 135 | 141 | 145 | 149 | 153 | 157 | 161
2x HP | 38 | 42 | 46 | 50 | 54 | 58 | 62 | 66 | 70 | 74 | 78 | 82 | 86 | 90 | 94 | 98 | 102 | 106 | 110 | 114 | 118 | 122 | 126 | 130 | 134
3x HP | 40 | 45 | 50 | 55 | 60 | 65 | 70 | 75 | 80 | 85 | 90 | 95 | 100 | 105 | 110 | 115 | 120 | 125 | 130 | 135 | 140 | 145 | 150 | 155 | 160 | 165

Note, the CS calculations are likely low. I have found that the actual CS varies minorly (1-2) compared to the trainer calculations. So, basically with that being said - It's pretty obvious that Bolt AS is the clear winner at early levels, which still puts the cleric as a pure-caster. Holy Bolt, costing 6 mana, does put a little bit of a hamper on mana conservation, thus a likely requirement for wands to finish an initial hunt from CAAB under about 100 or so mana (17@3x, 22@2x).

Based on the mana numbers, once you get to level 10 or so, you really shouldn't have any issues whatsoever going pure-casting. The sheer efficiency of 302 makes it incredibly effective once you start hitting 60% of the time or more.

I think it really just boils down to what you are most comfortable with. I honestly don't see melee hunting as being so incredibly and vastly superior to pure-casting at low-levels like many people seem to claim it is.

Whirlin

01-24-2014, 10:45 AM

I'm aware of how CS is calculated, and the growth associated with AS versus CS.

It's about critters' defenses, not about the raw growth of the values.

masterdtwin

01-24-2014, 01:28 PM

I'm aware of how CS is calculated, and the growth associated with AS versus CS.

It's about critters' defenses, not about the raw growth of the values.

Maybe it's just about hunting smart vs. being able to do whatever. Some critters are extremely easy for cleric, some are harder. Melee at low levels allows you to generally hunt anywhere you want with reckless abandonment, whereas casting you usually want to be a bit more picky about where you hunt.

Donquix

01-24-2014, 02:18 PM

Maybe it's just about hunting smart vs. being able to do whatever. Some critters are extremely easy for cleric, some are harder. Melee at low levels allows you to generally hunt anywhere you want with reckless abandonment, whereas casting you usually want to be a bit more picky about where you hunt.

You're right dude. You cracked the code none of us could figure out for the last two decades. You are the chosen one. We're so proud of you.

Whirlin

01-24-2014, 02:21 PM

Maybe it's just about hunting smart vs. being able to do whatever. Some critters are extremely easy for cleric, some are harder. Melee at low levels allows you to generally hunt anywhere you want with reckless abandonment, whereas casting you usually want to be a bit more picky about where you hunt.

Hunting anywhere with reckless abandonment sounds awesome. Why wouldn't you want to do that?

Isn't a measure of the most effective hunting the hunting that you can do in the most places with the most efficiency?

Asrial

01-24-2014, 02:48 PM

Isn't a measure of the most effective hunting the hunting that you can do in the most places with the most efficiency?To me it's being able to finish a hunt in a few minutes, even if it's only one spot, because at the end of the day.. all that matters is the XP. Having choices is just a perk.

Not disagreeing with you, just tossing out my view of your question.

Whirlin

01-24-2014, 03:37 PM

To me it's being able to finish a hunt in a few minutes, even if it's only one spot, because at the end of the day.. all that matters is the XP. Having choices is just a perk.

Not disagreeing with you, just tossing out my view of your question.

Yeah, your build reflected that. That's why in my mathing out of your build, I couldn't make a positive or negative conclusion once all the maths was done. The more I thought about it, if you can keep your hunt to 30 seconds - 1 minute, that's incredibly efficient.

My only concern with your build is that it requires a location with high spawn rates and/or wandering around the hunting ground for a few minutes to cause adequate critters to spawn(thus reducing the benefit!). It'd be amazingly effective for GoS Warcamp clearing, or if you kept hunts around EN (which I believe tend to have higher spawn rates than most western cities ((Citation needed))).

Ohh, and you're build is 40+... I was only commenting on Warcleric for pre-TD stabilization, maybe up to 40. Would be a good build to go your 240 build + GOS thereafter.

masterdtwin

01-24-2014, 04:21 PM

Hunting anywhere with reckless abandonment sounds awesome. Why wouldn't you want to do that?

Because I would still end up hunting in one specific area to level until I reached the point where I was comfortable moving on to the next. I prefer efficiency, not flexability.

Isn't a measure of the most effective hunting the hunting that you can do in the most places with the most efficiency?

Hunting in the most places is flexability, not efficiency. Efficiency is all about the least effort/risk to reward ratio. Going full blown caster, even at low levels reduces my risk to near zero. I think my cleric has died maybe 3-5 times her entire existance, most of those were caused from me tinkering around with things or moving into areas before I was ready to. Regardless of the specific exp absorbtion, the security and consistancy provides excellent efficiency.

Whirlin

01-24-2014, 04:38 PM

Hunting in the most places is flexability, not efficiency. Efficiency is all about the least effort/risk to reward ratio.
Doesn't making a statement of "hunting with reckless abandonment" imply low effort and risk? I'm not sure why you're suddenly changing your story to argue that a warcleric has a higher risk and a more difficult time hunting, when you were just saying last post that a pure cleric requires careful calculation about what you can hunt, and were implying that being a warcleric is an easy way out.

Jeril

01-24-2014, 05:06 PM

Donquix

01-24-2014, 08:27 PM

Something to be pointed out, with the adventure guild and bounties being the most effective means of gaining exp, being able to hunt more places and more creatures kind of does make you more effective at gaining exp. But pure casters aren't nearly as limited in their ability to hunt as you'd think either.

This is an excellent, excellent point.

Further, flexibility IS DEFINITELY part of efficiency. I hunted in RR for a long time, and hunting areas per level are scarce and I only had one real option. There was a large (think it was 8 or 9 strong) MA bot crew that was hunting my area (the citadel) at the time. If they were out hunting it would cause swarms to the point that I could not safely hunt, so I had to go back to town and wait it out. Or man up and go risk hunting it and almost certainly die. (which is what i did, assuming my local empath/cleric friends were around :D ) Theres nothing quite like the unbridled fear of starting a berserk and your bless drops on the first round...

Whirlin

01-24-2014, 08:29 PM

- | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30
AS | 64 | 74 | 80 | 86 | 111 | 131 | 136 | 141 | 146 | 176 | 181 | 186 | 191 | 196 | 200 | 204 | 208 | 212 | 216 | 220 | 224 | 228 | 232 | 235 | 238
Bolt AS | 96 | 109 | 117 | 126 | 132 | 154 | 160 | 167 | 173 | 203 | 207 | 212 | 216 | 221 | 223 | 226 | 228 | 231 | 233 | 236 | 238 | 241 | 243 | 245 | 247
CS | 53 | 59 | 63 | 67 | 71 | 75 | 81 | 87 | 91 | 95 | 99 | 103 | 107 | 113 | 117 | 121 | 125 | 129 | 135 | 141 | 145 | 149 | 153 | 157 | 161
2x HP | 38 | 42 | 46 | 50 | 54 | 58 | 62 | 66 | 70 | 74 | 78 | 82 | 86 | 90 | 94 | 98 | 102 | 106 | 110 | 114 | 118 | 122 | 126 | 130 | 134
3x HP | 40 | 45 | 50 | 55 | 60 | 65 | 70 | 75 | 80 | 85 | 90 | 95 | 100 | 105 | 110 | 115 | 120 | 125 | 130 | 135 | 140 | 145 | 150 | 155 | 160 | 165

Your CS calculations have an incredibly high starting point, and lower than real growth rate. Not sure how you would calculate a 6 CS growth level to level from 6-7. At level 6, even if you were triple in just the cleric circle to have 24 ranks, the maximum theoretical CS contribution from spells would be: 6+18/2 = 13 + 3*level = 18
=31 CS... you could probably get +1 more by dumping two ranks into other circles.

Back Calculating, that's a 22 WIS bonus, compared to a 14 STR bonus.
If we set a Half-Elf Cleric's stats to growth, we'd ACTUALLY see a 3 WIS bonus, and 1 STR bonus, meaning a further beginning point reduction of 19 on the CS side, and 13 on the AS side. Further increasing the advantage to the AS calculations.

As far as CS growth rate, we'd be looking at the +3 per level, plus conversion of a .5 to a 1, plus we'll say another .75-ish from spell research, just to be giving, for a 4.25 growth rate. Give or take a little bit due to rounding, but it should be around there.

Random critters I viewed tonight. I'll use your AS/CS calculations... even though I don't agree with them.
Critter|Level|TD|DS|Req Level to be CS=TD|Req Level for AS=DS
Kiramon Defender|48|184|201|~35|21
Kiramon Worker| 40|142 |169|25|15
Three-Toed Tegu|33|105 |173|17|15
Hunter Troll|30|90|105|14|10
Scaly Burgee|29|90|150|14|15
Giant Hawk-Owl|28|84|186|13|17
Plains Orc Shaman: Level 18|72 |145 |11|14

Even on your flawed math, for a majority of my sample-until-I-needed-to-switch-to-Whirlin-and-rescue-a-bow-from-OTF, the TD values are artificially high compared to DS values. This also does not highlight that AvD is a more advantageous addition to endrolls than CvA.