Simutronic Revival!

[Chaumel]

Check out the following facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/SimuRevival

Please show your support and help get Simutronics to change their ways!

[Warriorbird]

It isn't really about the fee to me, or even the GMs. I dislike upper management and feel Solomon's only a decent PM for DR.

[Thondalar]

I would if I had facebook.

[Ardwen]

hmm wasnt it crowded as hell when tiered pricing started? Heck plat ad 100+ a night at 80 a month if I recall right, its got little to do with price

[SHAFT]

I blame neimanz

[poloneus]

hmm wasnt it crowded as hell when tiered pricing started? Heck plat ad 100+ a night at 80 a month if I recall right, its got little to do with price

I'd disagree there. Perhaps not everything has always been about price, but price matters. I for one recently downgraded because of it. It's not like the cost hurt, but it was the principal of the thing. If my playing time becomes even more casual I'll cancel completely. There's just no common sense cost structure for a casual player.

[DCSL]

Price is an issue for me although so is management. And arbitrary rules with inconsistent enforcement. I'm on the tail end of closing my accounts right now, actually. I'd be more open to keeping those accounts open and waiting out my disinterest in the game if it wasn't $80 a month to do so.

[Ceyrin]

The only reason I quit is because Dex still plays. Since that's about to not be an issue anymore...


Price is an issue for me although so is management. And arbitrary rules with inconsistent enforcement. I'm on the tail end of closing my accounts right now, actually. I'd be more open to keeping those accounts open and waiting out my disinterest in the game if it wasn't $80 a month to do so.

Seriously though, I don't think I could have said it much better. With the caveat that the term management doesn't include nearly all of the current GMs. My experience with them for the few months I reactivated for was wonderful.

[Thondalar]

With the caveat that the term management doesn't include nearly all of the current GMs. My experience with them for the few months I reactivated for was wonderful.

In my experience, I would say that the current crop of GMs OVER ALL is the best that I can remember. There are a couple of idiots, but for the most part I think we've got a pretty good crew.

Price to me is also not a big factor. $15 a month is on par with the rest of the MMO market...yes, those are graphic MMOs, but I would argue that Gemstone is a better gaming experience than any of them, so the value to me tilts more towards GS. You can pay more if you want to, nobody is forcing you to be premium or platinum.

My main complaints would be lack of advertising and lazy or just uncaring upper management.

[waywardgs]

Shitty upper management that doesn't listen to its customers and a cowed playerbase of fanfolk on the officials, where dissent is deleted.

[Latrinsorm]

Price to me is also not a big factor. $15 a month is on par with the rest of the MMO market...yes, those are graphic MMOs, but I would argue that Gemstone is a better gaming experience than any of them, so the value to me tilts more towards GS. You can pay more if you want to, nobody is forcing you to be premium or platinum.The last two MMOs I played are F2P and have been for years: Dungeons and Dragons Online and Perfect World International. DDO is really only half F2P, but PWI gives absolute access for $0. For each, their dev schedule, player quantity, and (to be blunt) game quality puts GS to shame.

Obviously, the people running GS aren't magically going to become decent at their jobs just because the game goes F2P, but there are lots of options cheaper than GS. Going through this chart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_games) I can only find 4 (of 50) games that even match GS Standard 1 character for price. Granted, one is WoW, but still: GS pricing is not average, it's in the 90th percentile. This is something that I think needs to be stressed in discussions like these. And even if we're going to cleave to the WoW comp, WoW is apparently F2P to level 20, and for your subscription you get no character restrictions, no second/third class citizen treatment.

GS' pricing model is just obsolete. The people in charge just cannot grasp this, as illustrated by their astonishingly inept foray into micropayments. No amount of Facebook groups or petitions or customer attrition will change their minds, because it's not a decision they are making. They are just incapable of doing it a better way.

[daemon]

In my experience, I would say that the current crop of GMs OVER ALL is the best that I can remember. There are a couple of idiots, but for the most part I think we've got a pretty good crew.

Price to me is also not a big factor. $15 a month is on par with the rest of the MMO market...yes, those are graphic MMOs, but I would argue that Gemstone is a better gaming experience than any of them, so the value to me tilts more towards GS. You can pay more if you want to, nobody is forcing you to be premium or platinum.

My main complaints would be lack of advertising and lazy or just uncaring upper management.

It's not just "graphic". It's also most MMO's get constant updates. Tweaks, fixes, added content blah blah.. Granted they need them more than gemstone that has been around for ages but we rarely get anything new compared to the rest of the MMO Market. We have been given a few new skills to play with lately but it's nothing compared to what a normal MMO gets. I mean look at the guild system, how long have we had empty guilds with nothing in them? I know the few that work do the best they can but it's still the most expensive "MMO".

I mean 15 bucks on other MMO's give you what.. 10 characters usually? Each slot in GS costs money. To go premie costs alot more money. You can also change servers in MMO's for free. You can't play Plat or Shattered servers in GS without paying more. So you can't really compare 15 bucks to other MMO's because you get nowhere near as much for your money as you do in the others. And I would have to believe that the majority of players pay more than 15 a month.

[Gelston]

Price had nothing to do with why I quit. I think I mostly just got bored with it and I don't think there is really anything that could get me back into GS.

[Taernath]

Price was the entire reason I quit. I can't justify paying $15 a month for only a single character slot in a nearly empty 20 year old MUD, or $50 a month for more character slots and perks in a nearly empty 20 year old MUD.

I love GS4 and I would come back if they could figure out how to make a non-retarded membership plan.

[Back]

Shitty upper management that doesn't listen to its customers and a cowed playerbase of fanfolk on the officials, where dissent is deleted.

Are you talking about Simu or North Korea?

[diethx]

Price had nothing to do with why I quit. I think I mostly just got bored with it and I don't think there is really anything that could get me back into GS.

^

[Donquix]

Price had nothing to do with why I quit. I think I mostly just got bored with it and I don't think there is really anything that could get me back into GS.

But price does have a lot to do with that, in general. Maybe not for you specifically, but I'm sure many people have this same complaint. For many of them, in no small part the boredom is because the community is so small. Gemstone without the social aspect is basically a typing test (or programming challenge, depending on how you do it... :)) If they hadn't priced themselves out of the market, it wouldn't be a ghost town in most places. I'd love to see the actual UNIQUE concurrent player (not character) count during any given time. Outside of major events, i'm sure it's hilariously small.

But they don't care. It's profitable with little to no effort. As long as there's enough money to keep the lights on and whatley can keep cashing those checks, nothing will change.

[Avamagozma]

I have the sad feeling that if this Dragons of Elanthia thing takes off, then GS will be gone.

[Chaumel]

Am I convinced that this page will change Simu? I'd like to hope so, but I am not holding my breath. I've played GS off and on for more than half of my life. Every time I quit it's for the same reason, I can't justify the absurd expense given the lack of development, poor customer service, and the extreme elitist attitude of Solomon. He's already taking steps to delete any post I make about this group from the GS facebook page, which is just sad really, since my goal is to improve the game, and help them realize how many more customers they'd have, and how much more money they'd make, if they changed nothing but the fee system.

I want to come back to GS. I'm not alone here. I simply won't pay 40 dollars a month though to make the game playable and be able to access all the content in it. Not when I can go play a myriad of games that are F2P, or, as the WoW example goes, only 15 month, but for 10 characters per server, 50 max, and access to all the content in the game, is a far far better price. I hate WoW though, I think less of Blizzard than I do of Simu as things stand now. When I can buy dozens of games per month via humblebundle.com for half of a GS subscription, play games like Rift and Guild Wars 2, to list only two examples, for free after owning the games, or do any other number of activities for far less than the cost of an account with Simu, I simply won't waste my money, because the fact is, value-wise, GS isn't worth it, especially as it is now with it's player base so tiny compared to before.

[Warriorbird]

Am I convinced that this page will change Simu? I'd like to hope so, but I am not holding my breath. I've played GS off and on for more than half of my life. Every time I quit it's for the same reason, I can't justify the absurd expense given the lack of development, poor customer service, and the extreme elitist attitude of Solomon. He's already taking steps to delete any post I make about this group from the GS facebook page, which is just sad really, since my goal is to improve the game, and help them realize how many more customers they'd have, and how much more money they'd make, if they changed nothing but the fee system.

I want to come back to GS. I'm not alone here. I simply won't pay 40 dollars a month though to make the game playable and be able to access all the content in it. Not when I can go play a myriad of games that are F2P, or, as the WoW example goes, only 15 month, but for 10 characters per server, 50 max, and access to all the content in the game, is a far far better price. I hate WoW though, I think less of Blizzard than I do of Simu as things stand now. When I can buy dozens of games per month via humblebundle.com for half of a GS subscription, play games like Rift and Guild Wars 2, to list only two examples, for free after owning the games, or do any other number of activities for far less than the cost of an account with Simu, I simply won't waste my money, because the fact is, value-wise, GS isn't worth it, especially as it is now with it's player base so tiny compared to before.

We hear you. Simu's just always behind the curve with everything about GS. It's like they called people for advice on a new better front end and then they listened to nobody's advice about it.

There's stupid ticketing issues, lack of respect for the player base, the joke official boards (they never really figured out web 2.0), pimping out the Hero's Journey engine (after getting basically free labor for it), and I'm sure they'd have done the same thing for Dragons of Elanthia (apart from one of the most ill conceived Kickstarters ever, which sucks, because I like some of their employees).

Free to play would've been cool, years ago when it was cool, but they obviously don't have a clue about microtransactions.

[diethx]

People really need to realize that things will never change with Simutronics. It's been over 15 years since the move to the web alone, and nothing really has changed insofar as management. You can make as many Facebook groups or websites as you like, post as many unhappy threads as you can, but until enough people cancel their subscriptions and take away the almighty dollar, they aren't going to do shit differently, because this works for them. They're making money off of you all, and no matter how much most people complain, people keep their accounts open and buy up all the event tickets, sometimes in seconds flat. Simutronics knows this. Simutronics realizes that the masses won't close accounts or stop buying event tickets even if they never change. So basically, you all will continue to pay them to tell you to fuck off. In a nutshell, anyway.

[SHAFT]

I have the sad feeling that if this Dragons of Elanthia thing takes off, then GS will be gone.

Nah, too many people still pay. I can't see gs closing up for a long time. The overhead for it is minuscule.

[Warriorbird]

People really need to realize that things will never change with Simutronics. It's been over 15 years since the move to the web alone, and nothing really has changed insofar as management. You can make as many Facebook groups or websites as you like, post as many unhappy threads as you can, but until enough people cancel their subscriptions and take away the almighty dollar, they aren't going to do shit differently, because this works for them. They're making money off of you all, and no matter how much most people complain, people keep their accounts open and buy up all the event tickets, sometimes in seconds flat. Simutronics knows this. Simutronics realizes that the masses won't close accounts or stop buying event tickets even if they never change. So basically, you all will continue to pay them to tell you to fuck off. In a nutshell, anyway.

Pretty much. Renewal income like insurance.

[Latrinsorm]

I just noticed the singular in the title. Wouldn't it be sweet if "simutronic" was a genre of music like "electronic"? Or if "revival" referred to preaching? Or both???

Then again, where does the word "simutronics" come from anyway? Simultaneous electronics? Simian ultron? ULTRON!!!

[SHAFT]

I just noticed the singular in the title. Wouldn't it be sweet if "simutronic" was a genre of music like "electronic"? Or if "revival" referred to preaching? Or both???

Then again, where does the word "simutronics" come from anyway? Simultaneous electronics? Simian ultron? ULTRON!!!

Someone would like a word sir...

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x176/shaft4783/image-16.jpg (http://s184.photobucket.com/user/shaft4783/media/image-16.jpg.html)

[Thondalar]

The last two MMOs I played are F2P and have been for years: Dungeons and Dragons Online and Perfect World International. DDO is really only half F2P, but PWI gives absolute access for $0. For each, their dev schedule, player quantity, and (to be blunt) game quality puts GS to shame.

Obviously, the people running GS aren't magically going to become decent at their jobs just because the game goes F2P, but there are lots of options cheaper than GS. Going through this chart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_games) I can only find 4 (of 50) games that even match GS Standard 1 character for price. Granted, one is WoW, but still: GS pricing is not average, it's in the 90th percentile. This is something that I think needs to be stressed in discussions like these. And even if we're going to cleave to the WoW comp, WoW is apparently F2P to level 20, and for your subscription you get no character restrictions, no second/third class citizen treatment.

GS' pricing model is just obsolete. The people in charge just cannot grasp this, as illustrated by their astonishingly inept foray into micropayments. No amount of Facebook groups or petitions or customer attrition will change their minds, because it's not a decision they are making. They are just incapable of doing it a better way.

I wasn't talking about how many characters you get to play for a price, even the ones that allow multiple characters on an account, you can only play one at a time. I'm talking about the amount you pay per month. All of the big games are 14.99/per month, or within 2$ of it.

Of those, I've played Eve Online, Everquest 1 and 2, Anarchy Online, and Star Wars Online...I've canceled my subs to all of those, and only play Gemstone now. So in my opinion, which is the only thing I can offer, Gemstone is a better gaming experience. It's the only one I've played since I was in middle school, and still play 22 years later. Would it be better with another few hundred regular players? Probably. Would an F2P pricing system make that a reality? Probably. But it would also allow for a wave of griefers and other idiots that play it just to fuck with people, because it's an open world...the entire game would have to change to allow for this, and I don't think it would be in a good way.

[Thondalar]

It's not just "graphic". It's also most MMO's get constant updates. Tweaks, fixes, added content blah blah.. Granted they need them more than gemstone that has been around for ages but we rarely get anything new compared to the rest of the MMO Market. We have been given a few new skills to play with lately but it's nothing compared to what a normal MMO gets. I mean look at the guild system, how long have we had empty guilds with nothing in them? I know the few that work do the best they can but it's still the most expensive "MMO".

I mean 15 bucks on other MMO's give you what.. 10 characters usually? Each slot in GS costs money. To go premie costs alot more money. You can also change servers in MMO's for free. You can't play Plat or Shattered servers in GS without paying more. So you can't really compare 15 bucks to other MMO's because you get nowhere near as much for your money as you do in the others. And I would have to believe that the majority of players pay more than 15 a month.

In the last year we've had an entire new shield maneuver system, a new class, tons of new combat maneuvers added, ensorcel, two major events and several smaller events, ongoing storyline events in all towns...that's WAY more than I've ever had from all the other MMOs I've played.

As I stated in my other response, even in games with multiple characters, you can only play one at a time anyway. Most of those games, with the exceptions of like Eve Online, and maybe some others that I haven't played, you get to cap and stop playing that character. For those kinds of games, like WoW, you NEED extra character slots because you'll most likely not be playing the same one 6 months from now. Gemstone is completely different...most people play for the interaction with others, the events and storylines, with straight grinding being sort of in the back ground. The game doesn't end at cap...some would say it doesn't even begin until cap.

You're right about not being able to compare GS to other MMOs...it's completely different. A text environment allows for customization and certain game mechanics that simply aren't possible in a graphic MMO. To me, coupled with the smaller, more close-knit community, makes it more worth more.

And yes, I pay $80/month for two premium accounts.

[diethx]

Is that a typical year for GS? You get a new profession every what, ten years? Skills are more common, but still not as common as updates to most MMOs.

As for pay events... that's no surprise. There's always a fair amount of pay events. I wonder why.

[Thondalar]

Is that a typical year for GS? You get a new profession every what, ten years? Skills are more common, but still not as common as updates to most MMOs.

As for pay events... that's no surprise. There's always a fair amount of pay events. I wonder why.

Of course that's not typical, but it's also not typical for online games to be around almost 30 years. Constant development has only one of two endings...either you burn up all the good ideas so quickly that you run out and the game stagnates, or you burn up all the good ideas so quickly that you start making up dumb ideas to fill the gap and the game stagnates. Looking at the long-term development, and releasing things slowly, is a much better method.

[diethx]

Of course that's not typical, but it's also not typical for online games to be around almost 30 years. Constant development has only one of two endings...either you burn up all the good ideas so quickly that you run out and the game stagnates, or you burn up all the good ideas so quickly that you start making up dumb ideas to fill the gap and the game stagnates. Looking at the long-term development, and releasing things slowly, is a much better method.

I find two things especially funny about this post. First, you seem to think there's some finite amount of good ideas for each game, and once they're gone all that's left are dumb ones. I disagree wholeheartedly, knowing the nature of people and knowing how creative some of the GMs can be. Second, do you really think Simutronics has been so slow to release new content so that they only put out great ideas? So they never put out dumbshit stupidness? Ok...

Also, let me be clear on one thing. I do not believe this game has been around for as long as it has because of their method of releasing new content or management at. all. I think this game has been around for so long because of the type of close-knit community that it breeds. That's one thing GS has that MMOs don't; that's its biggest advantage, in my opinion. I think those who stay, stay for this. I think those who have lots of sabbaticals come back for that, for the nostalgia. I think they then generally leave again when they realize that management is still getting in the way of their own game.

[Donquix]

In the last year we've had an entire new shield maneuver system

Coase is awesome, but there's only one of him.


a new class,

that was in development for over a decade.


tons of new combat maneuvers added,

and (almost?) all of them were from the monk release. see above.


ensorcel,

likewise in development for how long now?


two major events and several smaller events, ongoing storyline events in all towns...that's WAY more than I've ever had from all the other MMOs I've played.

No it's not. what did you do to level in those games? Getting a character halfway to cap in an MMO is more developer created story driven content than nearly anyone has been a part of in Gemstone in the entire history of the game. Go back to an MMO and literally do nothing but grind killing mobs. That's what gemstone gives you. Not to mention i assume you mean the PAID extra events that are not included in your monthly fee? :\


As I stated in my other response, even in games with multiple characters, you can only play one at a time anyway. Most of those games, with the exceptions of like Eve Online, and maybe some others that I haven't played, you get to cap and stop playing that character. For those kinds of games, like WoW, you NEED extra character slots because you'll most likely not be playing the same one 6 months from now.

uhm, what? That's entirely inaccurate (not that alts aren't fun). Even for casual players, in nearly every new MMO.


Gemstone is completely different...most people play for the interaction with others, the events and storylines, with straight grinding being sort of in the back ground. The game doesn't end at cap...some would say it doesn't even begin until cap.

You're right about not being able to compare GS to other MMOs...it's completely different. A text environment allows for customization and certain game mechanics that simply aren't possible in a graphic MMO. To me, coupled with the smaller, more close-knit community, makes it more worth more.

And yes, I pay $80/month for two premium accounts.

This is the only thing you're correct on. The fact that gemstone is built to be driven by the community is the reason if, they knew what they were doing, they would charge less. So you know, a community actually existed.

If you're enjoying it great. I've done the same. But you have to be delusional to think their business practices, pricing model, and development cycle are anything other than toxic to the success of the game. You play because you have friends here and you got hooked when you were young and, much of the enjoyment is nostalgia driven. The simu business model since GSIII has always been about exploiting a captive audience. First it was from bundling with the service providers of the 90's, now they know they have the hooks in on those of us who jumped on the bandwagon during our formative (gaming) years.

From a customer standpoint I find them reprehensible. From an objective entrepreneurial one, i'm quite envious.

[Chaumel]

To be clear, I am not saying they should go to F2P. F2P as stated, would change things too much. I think they should go to a reduced pricing plan.

I'm not going to say what shape that plan should take, there are a number of ways to do it that would work I'm sure.

As for Simu's great claim to fame, it's age, well... it was one of the first. I mean, EQ isn't dead. In fact, I'd imagine it has far more players than GS does currently. That game could linger on another decade or two. WoW has been around quite some time, and I doubt it'll go away unless Blizzard decides to kill it. The point is, being old and having a history does not justify impractical price points, let alone that for the age of this game, it's hardly doing well.

While I definitely agree that Simu's management has been a big issue with me quitting as many times as I have, it always boils down to the same thought to me. "I'm paying 40 dollars a month to be treated like this?" All Simu has shown care for, as pointed out, is their bottom line, and not the game, the players, or any goals of improvement. The whole point of this, to me at least, is to give it one last try, though unified voices, to give them a chance to show they care about the game, and their players. I've no doubt that if they changed their price points, and e-mailed every inactive account, since they are all tied to an e-mail address, they would see significant results in short order.

[waywardgs]

It occurs to me that the one person who might be able to actually do anything about this is Tillmen. If he shut down lich, the playerbase would collapse. Simu would have to do something.

[Gelston]

It occurs to me that the one person who might be able to actually do anything about this is Tillmen. If he shut down lich, the playerbase would collapse. Simu would have to do something.

Not really. I'm sure the guy from DR would be more than happy to have new customers to pay for his third party thingamajig.

[diethx]

I think I hear a challenge, Tillmen.

[diethx]

Also what does that tell you about the game? The fact that many players couldn't sufficiently enjoy the game as they do without third party software, having nothing to do with Simutronics, to where it could cause a collapse of the entire system??

[Gelston]

Also what does that tell you about the game? The fact that many players couldn't sufficiently enjoy the game as they do without third party software, having nothing to do with Simutronics, to where it could cause a collapse of the entire system??

I think the biggest part is having and then lost.

[Thondalar]

It occurs to me that the one person who might be able to actually do anything about this is Tillmen. If he shut down lich, the playerbase would collapse. Simu would have to do something.

I played before lich, and I'd play after. Most of the core player base would as well. Would population drop? Hell yes. Probably by a good 100 or so active during peak, I'd wager. Would this make Simu do anything about it? Probably not. The day Gemstone becomes unprofitable is the day they shut it down, not the day they suddenly decide to try to save it.

[Tgo01]

Also what does that tell you about the game? The fact that many players couldn't sufficiently enjoy the game as they do without third party software, having nothing to do with Simutronics, to where it could cause a collapse of the entire system??

You don't even play this game anymore! Why you on these forums?!

[Tgo01]

I played before lich, and I'd play after. Most of the core player base would as well. Would population drop? Hell yes. Probably by a good 100 or so active during peak, I'd wager. Would this make Simu do anything about it? Probably not. The day Gemstone becomes unprofitable is the day they shut it down, not the day they suddenly decide to try to save it.

If lich goes away I would leave, that's 100 accounts right there.

[Back]

It occurs to me that if subscriptions go down the prices will go up. The effort the OP is putting into begging Simu to lower prices might be better served trying to increase the player base.

There have to be at least 100 people with enough disposable income to spend on nostalgia for the next 20 years to keep it going. Despite it being a text game it has drawn me back a few times, not only for nostalgic reasons, but also because it is a pretty robust game system. I've played all the major MMOs and other text based games but keep going back to GS because it really is a detailed system with a rich in-game history.

Conceptually it's not the best game I've ever played. But the other games I've played with better concepts have all gone away.

People complain about not having major updated content which may have been true a few years ago but the past couple have seen heavy story line events, upgrades to skills, upgrades to equipment, MONKS, and more attention to the players through contests and paid events.

Would I like to see prices come down? Sure. Who wouldn't? Then again, I don't find their prices unreasonable for my entertainment value at this point.

[diethx]

I think the biggest part is having and then lost.

Exactly. Take it away and you remember how the game is something like 80% tedium.

[Warriorbird]

Also what does that tell you about the game? The fact that many players couldn't sufficiently enjoy the game as they do without third party software, having nothing to do with Simutronics, to where it could cause a collapse of the entire system??

And that they wouldn't consider making their new snazzy frontend work with said system is mindboggling.

[Thondalar]

It occurs to me that if subscriptions go down the prices will go up. The effort the OP is putting into begging Simu to lower prices might be better served trying to increase the player base.

There have to be at least 100 people with enough disposable income to spend on nostalgia for the next 20 years to keep it going. Despite it being a text game it has drawn me back a few times, not only for nostalgic reasons, but also because it is a pretty robust game system. I've played all the major MMOs and other text based games but keep going back to GS because it really is a detailed system with a rich in-game history.

Conceptually it's not the best game I've ever played. But the other games I've played with better concepts have all gone away.

People complain about not having major updated content which may have been true a few years ago but the past couple have seen heavy story line events, upgrades to skills, upgrades to equipment, MONKS, and more attention to the players through contests and paid events.

Would I like to see prices come down? Sure. Who wouldn't? Then again, I don't find their prices unreasonable for my entertainment value at this point.

Mark down this day on your calendars. Back agrees with Thondalar. (make sure you don't note it as me agreeing with him, or even that we agree with each other)

[Back]

Mark down this day on your calendars. Back agrees with Thondalar. (make sure you don't note it as me agreeing with him, or even that we agree with each other)

While thats somewhat of a nice thing to say I think many of us have more in common than our politics or religious views. We are all united through GS. We are all internet gamers.

Some people take grudges way to seriously.

[SHAFT]

While thats somewhat of a nice thing to say I think many of us have more in common than our politics or religious views. We are all united through GS. We are all internet gamers.

Some people take grudges way to seriously.

Back likes the Talking Heads. He's good people.

[Warriorbird]

Back likes the Talking Heads. He's good people.

He's not too bad. A good guy to game with. A bit elementary when he likes a female who games and he wants to be in charge of things that he thinks of as his in the community, but apart from that he's not done anything the rest of us haven't done. He gets a worse rap than he should because he takes certain things personally.

[Tgo01]

A bit elementary when he likes a female who games and he wants to be in charge of things that he thinks of as his in the community

This sounds like an interesting story that I missed out on.

[Warriorbird]

This sounds like an interesting story that I missed out on.

Not interesting. The only reason I had a problem with it. We've all got our faults.

[SHAFT]

This sounds like an interesting story that I missed out on.

You'll continue to miss out on it and you'll like it.

[Tgo01]

You'll continue to miss out on it and you'll like it.

:(

[Thondalar]

As much as I hate to get back on topic, this just now elicited a response for some reason, even though I initially read it hours ago....



No it's not. what did you do to level in those games? Getting a character halfway to cap in an MMO is more developer created story driven content than nearly anyone has been a part of in Gemstone in the entire history of the game. Go back to an MMO and literally do nothing but grind killing mobs. That's what gemstone gives you.

Maybe it's just the games I've played, but...of the 4 or 5 major MMOs that I listed as having played myself for a good period of time, the only one that WASN'T a constant grind for XP was Eve Online, because skills were trained in real time...it was, however a grind if you wanted to make any sort of money there. Additionally, I can count on one hand the number of GM-run events in those games that were separate from regular gameplay...also all in Eve. Leveling basically was the game. On the contrary, I have characters in Gemstone that have gained 3 or 4 levels in the last 2 years, but I play them almost every day.



uhm, what? That's entirely inaccurate (not that alts aren't fun). Even for casual players, in nearly every new MMO.

No it's not. That's why everyone who plays WoW has capped characters in 7 different classes. Once you cap a class and raid all the best gear, there's nothing left. Was the same in Anarchy Online.


If you're enjoying it great. I've done the same. But you have to be delusional to think their business practices, pricing model, and development cycle are anything other than toxic to the success of the game.

I guess that would depend on how you define success.


You play because you have friends here and you got hooked when you were young and, much of the enjoyment is nostalgia driven.

I actually don't have that many "friends" in GS...all of my characters hunt alone, I tend to stick to less-populated areas...I do enjoy being an officer of Paupers and running events and doing some community stuff with Thondalar, but it's not like I have this huge stable of people I get on just to hang out with. Although I did get "hooked" when I was young, I've spent several years playing other MMOs, quit GS completely for about 4 years in fact...my enjoyment comes from the fact that it's just a better game, for me, than anything else I've played.


The simu business model since GSIII has always been about exploiting a captive audience. First it was from bundling with the service providers of the 90's, now they know they have the hooks in on those of us who jumped on the bandwagon during our formative (gaming) years.

Bundling with service providers was mostly born of necessity back then...the internet wasn't what it is now. I do think they realize they have a solid core of players who will most likely play until they're dead...or at least a good while longer.


From a customer standpoint I find them reprehensible. From an objective entrepreneurial one, i'm quite envious.

I guess I could understand the envy from the point of it takes them practically nothing to run the game, and they turn a profit from it...but I would imagine a real entrepreneur would find ways to make a business MORE profitable. To my understanding, Simutronics is focusing more on the things that are more profitable...Engine development and flash-type games for phones and tablets, specifically, and not so much on their text muds. While this is certain to upset a small and loyal fan base, it's not really in the company's best interest to pursue something that may or may not work out, to the exclusion of something else that is already working out.

[Ardwen]

one note to someones comment, a whole damned lot of the CMans and all of the shield skills had nothing at all to do with the monk class, as I recall when the shield stuff and ensorcell based stuff came out most of us were totally shocked by just how much we were getting with no real hint it was coming, Last few years in GS have had more dev then any other game I play and unlike almost every other game that dev was all free to all players not a 40+ dollar package or more if you wanted the limited pre-order packages most games have with every expansion. I dont play every game out there, but other then the character limit the monthly fee for GS usually gets you everything the game has to offer except pay events, most other games seem to have actual play content thats additional money, ie expansions and the like.

[Taernath]

It occurs to me that if subscriptions go down the prices will go up. The effort the OP is putting into begging Simu to lower prices might be better served trying to increase the player base.

There have to be at least 100 people with enough disposable income to spend on nostalgia for the next 20 years to keep it going.

The player base hasn't increased since the move to the web in '97. I think we all know that GS is serving the niche-est of audiences and that better or more advertising isn't going to draw people in. The only way to increase the player base at this point would be to revamp the pricing module, which is a remnant of that era.


People complain about not having major updated content which may have been true a few years ago but the past couple have seen heavy story line events, upgrades to skills, upgrades to equipment, MONKS, and more attention to the players through contests and paid events.

The last two years have definitely been impressive, but I think the last time so much stuff happened was Hot Summer Nights in 2003. That's the development cycle, 10 years between updates.

[SpiffyJr]

And that they wouldn't consider making their new snazzy frontend work with said system is mindboggling.

If you're referring to the web-client it's not that easy. There's lots of security measures in place specifically to prevent the browser from talking to sources like Lich. Lich would have to be modified to use websockets in order to work (which I plan on doing for Spif FE).

[Warriorbird]

If you're referring to the web-client it's not that easy. There's lots of security measures in place specifically to prevent the browser from talking to sources like Lich. Lich would have to be modified to use websockets in order to work (which I plan on doing for Spif FE).

Noted. It wasn't the given reason though. I feel like supporting people who mod should be one of the top priorities for such a niche product.

[Methais]

I just noticed the singular in the title. Wouldn't it be sweet if "simutronic" was a genre of music like "electronic"? Or if "revival" referred to preaching? Or both???

Then again, where does the word "simutronics" come from anyway? Simultaneous electronics? Simian ultron? ULTRON!!!

SIMULATION ELECTRONICS BECAUSE GS IS SO REAL!

In my opinion, the opening of EN and the massive playerbase divide that came along with it drove more people away from GS than anything over time.

Even if that's not actually the case, I still think it's the worst thing that has ever happened to GS. Splitting the population so hard made every town suck.

I can't help but wonder what would happen to the population if going to/from EN was like going to/from Solhaven. Or at the very least, the same trip it is now minus the mine carts.

Those stupid mine carts were the worst thing to ever be implemented in this game.

[Whirlin]

This entire thread appears to be attempting to apply theories of elastic pricing models towards what has proven to be an ineleastic demand.

While there are a lot of complaints about Simutronics, as a company, as developers, that just further proves the elasticity of the demand when the consumers are willing to put up with so much and still pay the prices for a product.


I'm not quite sure your basis for saying that reduced prices would be overall net positive operating income for Simutronics. Given the amount of 'casual' players who have stated that they play, I'd estimate at peak, 1/3rd of accounts are active. For simplicity, lets take peak at 500 people. Which would be 1500 accounts. Lets assume 40% are premium. That's 600 premium, 900 basic It's been a while since I've reviewed pricing, but lets say that it's $15 per normal account, $40 per premium. That's a total operating income of 13.5k from normal, 24k from premme. If we were to reduce both prices by $5, we'd be looking at a reduction of 7.5k monthly operating income. That would require 750 new normal accounts, or ~215 premium accounts. Or per our 60/40 ratio assumption earlier, 195 Normal accounts, 130 Premium.

Rather than looking at the math discretely, if we just take this assessment as a rough order of magnitude of approximately 300 new accounts needed before they break even, I don't think it's realistic to anticipate that big of a returning group to Gemstone given a price decrease. That also is just on the revenue side. That doesn't take into account any additional hardware/software/personnel requirements to maintain the environment with the increased player base.


Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Simutronics reformation, delivery on promises, and consistent enforcement of rules. But that's another off-topic discussion where we can rant about Simu. In regards to the pricing structure, I don't think there are enough interested potential returners out there to justify a price decrease.

[Warriorbird]

SIMULATION ELECTRONICS BECAUSE GS IS SO REAL!

In my opinion, the opening of EN and the massive playerbase divide that came along with it drove more people away from GS than anything over time.

Even if that's not actually the case, I still think it's the worst thing that has ever happened to GS. Splitting the population so hard made every town suck.

I can't help but wonder what would happen to the population if going to/from EN was like going to/from Solhaven. Or at the very least, the same trip it is now minus the mine carts.

Those stupid mine carts were the worst thing to ever be implemented in this game.

The EN and player shops. Both loltastically stupid. Unintended consequences.

[Methais]

Not interesting. The only reason I had a problem with it. We've all got our faults.

The only reason you had a problem with it was because it was not interesting?

We demand to know this story, and we will not leave until it has been told.

[Warriorbird]

The only reason you had a problem with it was because it was not interesting?

We demand to know this story, and we will not leave until it has been told.

You know it already. You've just forgotten.

[Atlanteax]

Price had nothing to do with why I quit. I think I mostly just got bored with it and I don't think there is really anything that could get me back into GS.

This.

In the meantime, if the monthly subscription was like $5 for everything that was Premium, I could see myself reactivating 'just cause' and potentially multiple others as well.

Compared to $30/m, $5/m can be easily overlooked as an ongoing expense on an individual basis. Alternatively, cannot justify paying $30/m for GS, but $5/m, sure.

[Methais]

The EN and player shops. Both loltastically stupid. Unintended consequences.

Player shops made slinging statues and orbs way better for me, so I can't really complain about those.

[Thondalar]

The EN and player shops. Both loltastically stupid. Unintended consequences.

EN was in development when the game had a much larger population...regardless, I don't think it's a bad thing. Just because an area is there doesn't mean people HAVE to use it, the fact that people do gives it value. Personally, I like the variety.

As far as player shops go...I think the idea was good, but the implementation sucks.

[Taernath]

http://i1347.photobucket.com/albums/p712/dtbrown082/43466739_zpsbde8aa80.jpg

What's wrong with them?

[sentral]

I like the EN but please do something with Zul Logoth, add some new hunting areas or something atleast.

[waywardgs]

http://i1347.photobucket.com/albums/p712/dtbrown082/43466739_zpsbde8aa80.jpg

What's wrong with them?

The thought is that playershops decrease player interaction.

Besides the fact that a third party system is required to make them AT ALL viable. It's fucking retarded that players had to set up character bots to run around each shop and look at the items to update a secondary website with information about what's there.

[waywardgs]

I like the EN but please do something with Zul Logoth, add some new hunting areas or something atleast.

Meh- i think the best thing that could be done is keep all the hunting areas, set up portals or whatever, but actually get RID of most of the towns. Condense the populations. Expand? No.

[Kembal]

Don't hold your breath on Ta'Illistim being closed off. (Ta'Vaalor...maybe. However, it is easily the most well-laid out start town.) the amount of work to do that though is immense. (think of all the alchemy formulas that would have to be changed, as one small example.)

As for pricing drop, there would have to be a massive display of interest to make this happen. I don't see that happening either.

Getting more bells and whistles added to the $15 subscription (second character slot, better locker amenities, etc.) are more likely to happen, but considering Simu offers those for purchase (either via Simucoins or buying additional character slots), I don't see that happening either.

But truthfully, I don't see Simu viewing GS as a means for any type of profit growth via the adding of totally new subscribers. I think they feel the churn of old players coming back while some current players take a break and/or quit is enough to maintain the game, and ancillary revenue measures (quests, Simucoins) enhance the profitability of the game without having to make significant advertising expenditure. (it should say something that they view labor as less of an expense than advertising!) My bet is that they have calculated the introduction of new content is enough to maintain that churn of subcriptions, and that they don't need to do anymore beyond that.

So unless you can point to something in the pricing/subscription benefits equation that can be incrementally improved so that more subscribers would come in while not decreasing the net revenue, I can't see anything changing. I don't see things more radical than Simucoins on the horizon anytime soon...

[Methais]

EN was in development when the game had a much larger population...regardless, I don't think it's a bad thing. Just because an area is there doesn't mean people HAVE to use it, the fact that people do gives it value. Personally, I like the variety.

As far as player shops go...I think the idea was good, but the implementation sucks.

The town itself isn't the problem. It's the gigantic divide in the playerbase it caused because everybody hates the long and boring trip, which would be almost completely alleviated if they got rid of the mine carts.

It wouldn't be as bad with a large playerbase, but that's obviously not the case.

[crb]

SIMULATION ELECTRONICS BECAUSE GS IS SO REAL!

In my opinion, the opening of EN and the massive playerbase divide that came along with it drove more people away from GS than anything over time.

Even if that's not actually the case, I still think it's the worst thing that has ever happened to GS. Splitting the population so hard made every town suck.

I can't help but wonder what would happen to the population if going to/from EN was like going to/from Solhaven. Or at the very least, the same trip it is now minus the mine carts.

Those stupid mine carts were the worst thing to ever be implemented in this game.

Remember when GMs went on the warpath against nodes and removed many of the most popular resting spots around the landing because they thought people were congregating and socializing too much?

Seriously, these people are so stupid they make Honey BooBoo look smart.

[waywardgs]

Get rid of the carts and the ferry.

[sentral]

how about add interesting things. like getting attacked on the mine cart by creatures or maybe you get thrown off at some point randomly, make it interesting instead of boring. It's a scary minecart ala Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Maybe give the option to jump to enter a new hunting area.

[Gelston]

how about add interesting things. like getting attacked on the mine cart by creatures or maybe you get thrown off at some point randomly, make it interesting instead of boring. It's a scary minecart ala Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Maybe give the option to jump to enter a new hunting area.

While that may be cool at first, eventually it'd just be marked as tedium and a source of frustration.

[Taernath]

The town itself isn't the problem. It's the gigantic divide in the playerbase it caused because everybody hates the long and boring trip, which would be almost completely alleviated if they got rid of the mine carts.

You're supposed to get a sense of travel time, because otherwise you're flying across an entire continent in literally under a minute.

[AnticorRifling]

You're supposed to get a sense of travel time, because otherwise you're flying across an entire continent in literally under a minute.

And that's not good in a land of magic and make believe, you've gotta have cart rides!

[waywardgs]

how about add interesting things. like getting attacked on the mine cart by creatures or maybe you get thrown off at some point randomly, make it interesting instead of boring. It's a scary minecart ala Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Maybe give the option to jump to enter a new hunting area.

You want to make it SLOWER? This would just divide the lands even further. I run between illy and the landing all the time, and I'd be pretty pissed if I had to deal with that shit all the time. Particularly lately- I've had a good amount of fun in the landing with Kenstrom's storyline, but I hunt in OTF. Kenstrom's stuff has added to my enjoyment of the game (also RPA!!). If your goal is to get people involved and interacting again, make it EASIER to get places.

[waywardgs]

You're supposed to get a sense of travel time, because otherwise you're flying across an entire continent in literally under a minute.

When's the last time you went anywhere without using ;go2?

[Donquix]

The thought is that playershops decrease player interaction.

Besides the fact that a third party system is required to make them AT ALL viable. It's fucking retarded that players had to set up character bots to run around each shop and look at the items to update a secondary website with information about what's there.

Well, there's that...there's also the whole thing where the shops are only available in limited quantities. The way the empties were recycled back into the pool was perfectly tailored to exploit via script. As a result a very limited number of people actually have shops in the desirable locations, mostly to use as giant locker extensions. When simu realized this their solution was close them down so the system could be revamped which has been pending for what...6 years now or so? Further exacerbating the problem more than anything.

[Latrinsorm]

All of the big games are 14.99/per month, or within 2$ of it.I don't know what you mean by "big games". There are games with 1000x the population of Gemstone that are F2P. MapleStory and RuneScape have millions of players, totally F2P. Guild Wars has a one time purchase fee and is then free in perpetuity - millions of players. And even if we only count your "big games", when you say "within $2" you mean "no more than $2 less". No game is more expensive than Gemstone Standard. I also want to comment on your characters bit: suppose you have a choice between two restaurants. One offers just nachos. One offers steak, chicken, salad, fish, dessert, taters, or rice. Even if you can only have one at a time, how often can you go to the first restaurant before you say "enough with the damn nachos already!" Maybe you get sick of playing a rogue and want to play a tank for awhile. In WoW et al, no problem. In GS, you can delete your character or you can pony up more money... or you can just stop playing GS.
But it would also allow for a wave of griefers and other idiots that play it just to fuck with people, because it's an open world...the entire game would have to change to allow for this, and I don't think it would be in a good way.Why? No matter what you pay to subscribe to a game, you always pay with your time. Put yourself in the griefer's shoes. Why bother grappling with Gemstone's notorious learning curve and archaic interface when you could grief people in the hundreds of free graphical MMOs much more easily?
Constant development has only one of two endings...either you burn up all the good ideas so quickly that you run out and the game stagnates, or you burn up all the good ideas so quickly that you start making up dumb ideas to fill the gap and the game stagnates. Looking at the long-term development, and releasing things slowly, is a much better method.Dude, this is some Stockholm Syndrome material right here.
In regards to the pricing structure, I don't think there are enough interested potential returners out there to justify a price decrease.The F2Ps make it work somehow, even though putting them in your algebra would result in bankruptcy every time. I see no reason why GS can't apply the same principles.

[Gelston]

I also want to comment on your characters bit: suppose you have a choice between two restaurants. One offers just nachos. One offers steak, chicken, salad, fish, dessert, taters, or rice.

You would just eat the one with nachos every time.

[Latrinsorm]

Only once a day! And I am also easily peer pressured.

[JustDan]

The simple fact is that there's no reason for it to change, so it's not going to. They make money off of this ridiculously outdated and overpriced game because of nostalgia, plain and simple. I don't think I've seen a 'confirmed' truly-new person in the game in five years or more. Lots of "returning" players, though, and that's all lumped into the 'nostalgia' clan.

The current crop of GMs have done a great job, in my opinion, releasing new content. Shield maneuvers, martial stances, minor mental circle, monks, UAC, expanded CMans, Ensorcell... they've been on a tear. But at the end of the day, all they've done is made the tedious, expensive grind that is GS a little less tedious. No less expensive, and it's undeniably still a grind (Want to Ensorcell? Better hit your cap each week!).

So at the end of the month, or year, you look back and realize that you spent, at minimum, 180 bucks to grind away your time. To some of us that's worth it, either because they have more disposable income, or they get that much entertainment out of the game. 180 bucks for a year of solid, any-time entertainment is well worth it. So long as you consider all that time grinding 'entertaining', it's a hell of a deal.

[Gelston]

My time as a mentor, I had seen several brand new people to the game. Probably two or three a month. The community is full of assholes who scream bloody murder at people for not knowing stuff though, so few stick around.

[Tgo01]

My time as a mentor, I had seen several brand new people to the game. Probably two or three a month. The community is full of assholes who scream bloody murder at people for not knowing stuff though, so few stick around.

Yeah it's kind of ironic. Everyone wants more players but they don't seem to have the patience to teach newcomers about the dos and don'ts of the game, or they "teach" them in a total douche bag manner.

[AnticorRifling]

Yeah it's kind of ironic. Everyone wants more players but they don't seem to have the patience to teach newcomers about the dos and don'ts of the game, or they "teach" them in a total douche bag manner.

I spent a day reading before I even signed in to the character generator...

Then I went to WoW and said F it let's start with a throwing spec rogue like a boss. (made it to lvl 18 before I was told I couldn't be a rogue anymore by Al Gore).

[Whirlin]

The F2Ps make it work somehow, even though putting them in your algebra would result in bankruptcy every time. I see no reason why GS can't apply the same principles.

The F2Ps have a very different structure than Gemstone. F2Ps rely on an ever changing player base, of which some may be willing to offer up cash in order to expedite tasks, or further customize their characters. While on the surface, it may be applicable, Gemstone doesn't really have that hook for new players to get them in the door, get them addicted, and them get them to want to dish out some money for an RPA, Lumnis, etc. It has a high barrier of entry, limited new player support, and an elitist jerk player base. Furthermore, a lot of their service offerings are typically human interaction intensive. A more robust automatic provisioning system would need to be in place for merchant-like services including alterations, etc.

Farmville's publisher, Zynga, has published that between 3-5% of the player base actually spends money on a F2P game. Lets go ahead and go crazy, and say that everyone that pays money for Gemstone will actually dish out $50 a month! We'll keep our 37.5k estimate from my original post. That'd be 550 paid users. At the 3-5 threshold that Zynga estimates, that would put the Gemstone current playerbase between 11k and 18.3k players required before beginning to see an increase in operating income.... And that under the assumption they get $50 payouts when people decide to pay.

http://business.financialpost.com/2012/04/04/download-code-how-exactly-do-companies-make-money-off-free-to-play-games/?__lsa=d4a5-8235

Given the level of support they've been able to provide a ~1k player base... I'd say it's unlikely to scale well to a 700+% increase. That's not even taking into account the infrastructure investment required.

[Atlanteax]

Whirlin, you should probably take in account that compared to the majority of F2P games, GS is 'nerdy' (a greater level of understanding of formulas/etc to do well), and generally speaking, 'nerds' make significantly more money that they are willing to spend on a game that they gain utility from.

Supporting evidence would be the high $$$ value on in-game gear/characters for GS, that I would not expect to be there for F2P games.

[waywardgs]

Whirlin, you should probably take in account that compared to the majority of F2P games, GS is 'nerdy' (a greater level of understanding of formulas/etc to do well), and generally speaking, 'nerds' make significantly more money that they are willing to spend on a game that they gain utility from.

Supporting evidence would be the high $$$ value on in-game gear/characters for GS, that I would not expect to be there for F2P games.


The high price keeps out the riff-raff!

[Donquix]

The F2Ps have a very different structure than Gemstone. F2Ps rely on an ever changing player base, of which some may be willing to offer up cash in order to expedite tasks, or further customize their characters. While on the surface, it may be applicable, Gemstone doesn't really have that hook for new players to get them in the door, get them addicted, and them get them to want to dish out some money for an RPA, Lumnis, etc. It has a high barrier of entry, limited new player support, and an elitist jerk player base. Furthermore, a lot of their service offerings are typically human interaction intensive. A more robust automatic provisioning system would need to be in place for merchant-like services including alterations, etc.

Farmville's publisher, Zynga, has published that between 3-5% of the player base actually spends money on a F2P game. Lets go ahead and go crazy, and say that everyone that pays money for Gemstone will actually dish out $50 a month! We'll keep our 37.5k estimate from my original post. That'd be 550 paid users. At the 3-5 threshold that Zynga estimates, that would put the Gemstone current playerbase between 11k and 18.3k players required before beginning to see an increase in operating income.... And that under the assumption they get $50 payouts when people decide to pay.

http://business.financialpost.com/2012/04/04/download-code-how-exactly-do-companies-make-money-off-free-to-play-games/?__lsa=d4a5-8235

Given the level of support they've been able to provide a ~1k player base... I'd say it's unlikely to scale well to a 700+% increase. That's not even taking into account the infrastructure investment required.

infrastructure investment? jesus. you should be able to scale it into the thousands on hardware you can get for free on craig's list. And you get the added bonus of looking for porn on the discarded hardware!

I wouldn't trust any figure zynga throws out. Ever. They're full of shit, just in general.

i think if they offered a free tier, additional character slots at 2 per with 4/9 slot bundles for 5/8 bucks a month, some easily reusable microtransaction type things at reasonable prices; the weight reducing feathers are good, GALD are great here (it's the aesthetic shit that racks up the bucks in F2P games), something for picking boxes anyone could use in a pinch (cheap enough to be an option, expensive enough to make relying on others better. disable townsmiths for free tier), chronomage tickets, etc. Some permanent account upgrades (locker space upgrade, etc.) and then bump down prime to 15 a month w/ 10 character slots....they'd do pretty damn well for themselves. That would also open up the shattered option without having to pay for standard + shattered, which is silly. I would have kept my subscription going for shattered for years if it was a throwaway 5 bucks a month, i think many others would have well, more than enough to counteract the loss of standard for the ones that did stick around.

There's a lot of options, and they're all better for the game and for profitability than what they're doing. But again, they don't care. A mostly complacent player base, zero effort really...they like free money.

[Warriorbird]

Remember when GMs went on the warpath against nodes and removed many of the most popular resting spots around the landing because they thought people were congregating and socializing too much?

Seriously, these people are so stupid they make Honey BooBoo look smart.

That was so stupid too. Destroy gathering spots and make players quit.

[Candor]

That was so stupid too. Destroy gathering spots and make players quit.

I agree that going after the nodes wasn't a smart decision, but if that was the only reason a player quit, then I think the game is better off without the player.

[Warriorbird]

I agree that going after the nodes wasn't a smart decision, but if that was the only reason a player quit, then I think the game is better off without the player.

If they made your favorite place no longer a gathering place how would you feel?

[Latrinsorm]

I agree that going after the nodes wasn't a smart decision, but if that was the only reason a player quit, then I think the game is better off without the player.Straw breaks backs.

[Atlanteax]

That was so stupid too. Destroy gathering spots and make players quit.

Particularly considering how prized RP is as an aspect of GS ... less opportunities from reduced size/frequency of audiences/participants.

Players played a long time because of the bonds they were able to form and share. Destroying gathering spots only encourages aloofness, and then people might as well just play SP games instead (and undoubtedly many quit just to do that).

[Narthsin]

And here I was worried we wouldn't get our annual thread of "Simudoom" in for 2013. Good work.

[Warriorbird]

And here I was worried we wouldn't get our annual thread of "Simudoom" in for 2013. Good work.

"I'm not going back and it will continue." is a lot different than doom. This has articulate business examples as well.

[Tgo01]

All of this talk of killing off nodes/gathering spots reminds me of when someone mentions something on the officials that might make an aspect of the game less tedious there is a 78% chance of someone replying with something like "OMG! You just want to be able to rush through XYZ so you can get back to a node and socialize more!" As if wanting to interact with other people in this multiplayer game is a bad thing...

[Donquix]

All of this talk of killing off nodes/gathering spots reminds me of when someone mentions something on the officials that might make an aspect of the game less tedious there is a 78% chance of someone replying with something like "OMG! You just want to be able to rush through XYZ so you can get back to a node and socialize more!" As if wanting to interact with other people in this multiplayer game is a bad thing...

Yeah this whole "talking with other people thing being integral to enjoyment" as part of their design paradigm?

see: forging

[Ardwen]

I think the node issue happened in their zeal to remove all nodes in hunting areas, of which there used to be many, problem was that GMs would just plop nodes anywhere, some of them in ridiculous locations, those probably could have been pulled without removing all the ones people actually used. It seemed at one point every third room in the landing was a node for instance. If I had to guess I imagine they thought removing nodes would move people together which it clearly never did, nor was it really likely that it would

[poloneus]

My time as a mentor, I had seen several brand new people to the game. Probably two or three a month. The community is full of assholes who scream bloody murder at people for not knowing stuff though, so few stick around.

I hear about this all the time, but I have rarely ever seen it through the years. Also, not sure how long ago you were a mentor, and I'm not the most sociable character a lot of the times, but I almost NEVER see new characters. The few that I've seen were so totally lost do to the learning curve required with start-up I doubt they stuck around long.

I think an easier start-up process would be part of a the solution to attract new customers. Some type of interface where you lay out your idea for a character and the character manager gives you 3 viable options for what you described. There is just too much minutiae to get started.

[Ardwen]

I regularly see new players and often see older players, ignoring them, insulting them and even giving intentionally bad information to them, how many of those players are genuinely new who knows but if even one is truly new and driven away by current players its ridiculous.

[Gelston]

I was one up until about 7 months or so ago. It isn't always the community's fault for being jerks, most people live under the assumption that GS never gets new players so they just assume anyone acting outside the social norms or the like is trolling, but I mean.. Someone comes in and says "hay how do i play this game?" or using a bunch of text message chat lingo or whatever... People get bitchy at them, but those are generally new players and they don't know any better.

[Donquix]

It'd be handy if there was a way to check if someone was on a new account. Give it the !monsterbold treatment, or at least a verb where you can check if someone's account is on their first 30 days or similar. The onboarding for new players is quite shitty. And first 30 days for a pure caster? lol. They've needed to do SOMETHING for pures, mana management is just asinine early. Kiss any potential new player that wanted to play a pure goodbye, right off the bat.

[Ceyrin]

One of the things about this topic that amuses me is that people think that lowering the prices would be good for the game, or helpful in any way.

Let's look at this concept objectively for a moment. Since, as previously stated, and a concept I agree with, advertising is not an option. Actual NEW blood is very unlikely to be had. This is a very niche product. Spending thousands (or 10's of thousands) of dollars to gain a handful of new players beyond the trial period is not a sound investment, and would likely be the result of some internet or otherwise specifically targeted advertising plan.

So, you can't advertise for new customers. Well, we know a bunch of old customers that don't play, some of them because they feel the price is too high. Lowering the price might convince some of them to return. Non-linear mathematics aside (because I'm lazy and I don't think it's necessary to make the point), there is obviously a break point between current income with current customer base, and anticipated customer base with new lower pricing model to break even on their end. That's not even taking in to account that any change in pricing schedule is done with the anticipation to actually MAKE money, not just stay at even but have more virtual mouths to feed, so to speak.

So, if we(Simutronics) are going to lower prices, we need to have not only a set expectation of increased account subscriptions and their consistency, but for our effort as a company, we're going to want to exceed that expectation, otherwise as a business entity we've only done one thing - we've lowered ourselves to try and do business with people whom didn't think our product was worthwhile at it's previous price point.

It's been my experience in the service industry, that when you lower your prices to accommodate a 'lower common denominator', often what you end up with is a lot more high maintenance customers. These are the people who quit because they couldn't afford our previous pricing structure, so now that we've set the precedent that we're willing to cater to them, our veins are open. This results in more customer maintenance on a more regular basis that we're going to have to give consistently (something we're notoriously bad at sometimes), which will ultimately just result in these people quitting again anyway.

This puts us in an awkward position of being stuck with lower prices, or having to tell our remaining customers that we've failed and we need to raise our prices back to their previous levels (or higher, since the backlash from constant price changes is likely to engender bad feelings among some of our more loyal customers).

So, a lower pricing schedule is lose/lose for Simutronics.

[Chaumel]

A simple solution to the pricing issue vs off and on again players would be to offer discounts for paid in advance year long subscriptions. If you commit you a year of continual service, and pay the amount in full up front, as virtually every game with a subscription fee offers, you get a discount. This would satisfy those seeking reduced prices before being willing to play, reward those who are already committed customers, and get people to stick it out whenever Simu pisses them off, since they have already paid for their membership in advance. I know my price point personally, before I'd consider playing GS again, is about 25 dollars for a premium account at the high end. I also know I'd be willing to pay a year in full in advance to get that price, and that Simu would make a heck of a lot more money off me, since traditionally it takes them about 3-4 months to piss me enough and have me cancel my subscription for a year or so. If I could get a second basic account under the same discount system, I would likely do so as well.

There are a lot of angles to come at the problem. Apathy from the majority of those posting here only help continue the problem. The fact that so few want to organize and take it to Simu collectively is a sad comment on the player base.

[bp0731]

Realizing this is a completely niche game that attracts a very small group of people wouldn't it make sense that the one's who are already part of the community would have the knowledge of where to find new customers. Be it friends, internet friends, blogs, whatnot...

Also knowing this community, no one is going to do Simu's work for them, why not approach them and work with them on an incentive to find new subscribers. Im sure many people would spend ten minutes posting on a blog or FB or wherever if it meant every new subscriber they referred gets them a chance in a high end raffle or some other major service the community covets so.

Just a random thought not sure if it has ever been explored previously or not. Also felt it was better than my other idea that all our super merchs who made so much selling silvers the past year pay for a Super Bowl commercial.

Creiger

[poloneus]

Also knowing this community, no one is going to do Simu's work for them, why not approach them and work with them on an incentive to find new subscribers.

Creiger

Work with Simu? I'm guessing you're one of the new people mentioned. That has never and will never work with the current management in place.

[diethx]

Also knowing this community, no one is going to do Simu's work for them, why not approach them and work with them on an incentive to find new subscribers. Im sure many people would spend ten minutes posting on a blog or FB or wherever if it meant every new subscriber they referred gets them a chance in a high end raffle or some other major service the community covets so.

Really? Knowing this community, huh? A few years back, this community donated quite a nice chunk of change to be used to purchase advertising (in the form of tweets from nerdy celebs) for Gemstone. This community absolutely did Simutronics' work for them. They made a better effort than Simutronics ever did. I guess you don't know this community so well after all...

[bp0731]

Work with Simu? I'm guessing you're one of the new people mentioned. That has never and will never work with the current management in place.

No not new I am one of the on again off again's for the last 18yrs, just never got involved in the dealings with the management. I understand that they have done much to alienate their customers but if you knock on someone's door with a bag a money you may be able to get them to at least hear you out... better then just never trying... gotta remember they may slam the door in your face 100 times but the 1 time they say yes could make it all worth it. May just be the salesman in me but that's how I would see it.

Creiger

[Tgo01]

Really? Knowing this community, huh? A few years back, this community donated quite a nice chunk of change to be used to purchase advertising (in the form of tweets from nerdy celebs) for Gemstone. This community absolutely did Simutronics' work for them. They made a better effort than Simutronics ever did. I guess you don't know this community so well after all...

I remember that and everyone was getting upset because Simu wouldn't donate money to the cause and everyone was saying Simu must have a zero advertisement budget then Bubba claimed that Simu spends something like thousands of dollars every month on advertising and GS gets something like 500 sign ups every month.

Sounded like a lot of bullshit to me.

[diethx]

I remember that and everyone was getting upset because Simu wouldn't donate money to the cause and everyone was saying Simu must have a zero advertisement budget then Bubba claimed that Simu spends something like thousands of dollars every month on advertising and GS gets something like 500 sign ups every month.

Sounded like a lot of bullshit to me.

Maybe he was thinking of DR. :D

[Donquix]

One of the things about this topic that amuses me is that people think that lowering the prices would be good for the game, or helpful in any way.

Let's look at this concept objectively for a moment. Since, as previously stated, and a concept I agree with, advertising is not an option. Actual NEW blood is very unlikely to be had. This is a very niche product. Spending thousands (or 10's of thousands) of dollars to gain a handful of new players beyond the trial period is not a sound investment, and would likely be the result of some internet or otherwise specifically targeted advertising plan.

So, you can't advertise for new customers. Well, we know a bunch of old customers that don't play, some of them because they feel the price is too high. Lowering the price might convince some of them to return. Non-linear mathematics aside (because I'm lazy and I don't think it's necessary to make the point), there is obviously a break point between current income with current customer base, and anticipated customer base with new lower pricing model to break even on their end. That's not even taking in to account that any change in pricing schedule is done with the anticipation to actually MAKE money, not just stay at even but have more virtual mouths to feed, so to speak.

So, if we(Simutronics) are going to lower prices, we need to have not only a set expectation of increased account subscriptions and their consistency, but for our effort as a company, we're going to want to exceed that expectation, otherwise as a business entity we've only done one thing - we've lowered ourselves to try and do business with people whom didn't think our product was worthwhile at it's previous price point.

It's been my experience in the service industry, that when you lower your prices to accommodate a 'lower common denominator', often what you end up with is a lot more high maintenance customers. These are the people who quit because they couldn't afford our previous pricing structure, so now that we've set the precedent that we're willing to cater to them, our veins are open. This results in more customer maintenance on a more regular basis that we're going to have to give consistently (something we're notoriously bad at sometimes), which will ultimately just result in these people quitting again anyway.

This puts us in an awkward position of being stuck with lower prices, or having to tell our remaining customers that we've failed and we need to raise our prices back to their previous levels (or higher, since the backlash from constant price changes is likely to engender bad feelings among some of our more loyal customers).

So, a lower pricing schedule is lose/lose for Simutronics.

There's a good saying for this line of thinking: penny smart, dollar dumb. Subscriptions continually trend down (basically bottomed out at this point, but they've had several noticeable losses recently with kisun, buck, etc.), prices remain the same. Good long term strategy, that. They've made nothing but terrible decisions from a business standpoint but the cost for operation is so incredibly minuscule it doesn't matter. They just keep marching down getting slightly less free money every month and don't care.

[Latrinsorm]

I was one up until about 7 months or so ago. It isn't always the community's fault for being jerks, most people live under the assumption that GS never gets new players so they just assume anyone acting outside the social norms or the like is trolling, but I mean.. Someone comes in and says "hay how do i play this game?" or using a bunch of text message chat lingo or whatever... People get bitchy at them, but those are generally new players and they don't know any better.Lucky they didn't start in GS ][ like I did, I got thumped and my head cut off with a drake falchion by Bleeds and Meta at the same time (holding hands), of course they were only level 5 back then but back then that was a big deal. The problem is that people today aren't vicious enough to new players, but I guess that's just a symptom of the larger snowflake coddling baby culture that didn't back when I started.
Let's look at this concept objectively for a moment. Since, as previously stated, and a concept I agree with, advertising is not an option. Actual NEW blood is very unlikely to be had. This is a very niche product. Spending thousands (or 10's of thousands) of dollars to gain a handful of new players beyond the trial period is not a sound investment, and would likely be the result of some internet or otherwise specifically targeted advertising plan.Word of mouth, or perhaps more accurately word of Twitter. This is 2013 anno Obama, plenty of niche products are massive successes.
So, a lower pricing schedule is lose/lose for Simutronics.I'm sure someone performed the same analysis with every other game that considered going F2P, and I'm sure sometimes that pessimism was justified, but other times have been unconditional successes. There is no reason to believe Simu has absolutely no chance of success.

[SHAFT]

I'm scared of getting banned if I mess with other players. All it takes is one pussy-ass gm to ban ya.

[diethx]

Your avatar makes me giggle every time I see it, Shaft.

[Donquix]

I'm scared of getting banned if I mess with other players. All it takes is one pussy-ass gm to ban ya.

I dunno. I'll be the first to complain about a lot of the GMs but I've never seen anyone banned who didn't habitually do shit. You can definitely make the case that some of the behavior they choose to harp on shouldn't be policed but, at the very least it's never a surprise. It takes a sustained track record for them to drop the ban hammer.

[Thondalar]

A simple solution to the pricing issue vs off and on again players would be to offer discounts for paid in advance year long subscriptions. If you commit you a year of continual service, and pay the amount in full up front, as virtually every game with a subscription fee offers, you get a discount.

Considering I send Simu a (virtual) check for $1100 every July, I'd be down with this. I don't think it would bring in a bunch of new players, but as a long-term player I wouldn't mind a break.

[Thondalar]

There's a good saying for this line of thinking: penny smart, dollar dumb. Subscriptions continually trend down (basically bottomed out at this point, but they've had several noticeable losses recently with kisun, buck, etc.), prices remain the same. Good long term strategy, that. They've made nothing but terrible decisions from a business standpoint but the cost for operation is so incredibly minuscule it doesn't matter. They just keep marching down getting slightly less free money every month and don't care.

Subs have stayed pretty even across the board over the last few years. They'll be up a bit around EG or other major announced events, and down a bit during the rest of the year, but about the same over all. A few big names leaving doesn't mean everyone is.

[Methais]

You're supposed to get a sense of travel time, because otherwise you're flying across an entire continent in literally under a minute.

I get what you're saying, but that doesn't change the fact that realism typically isn't fun in fantasy based games. This was demonstrated pretty hard during the "Growing Pains" era, where they went on a rampage with the nerf bat all over the game, unnecessarily nerfing all kinds of shit that didn't need to be nerfed and resulted in more tedium and less fun, all in the name of "because realism".

How would you feel about getting hard RT every time you change rooms, to simulate that you're actually walking down a path instead of instantly running several hundred feet at a time by moving through 5-10 rooms in a second? What's the difference between that and riding mine carts or some stupid ferry that randomly goes on lunch break, forcing you to stand there with your thumb up your ass while you wait even longer to get where you're going?

Realism isn't a line of theme messaging text going across your screen, spaced out over 5-10 minutes every 20 seconds or so like in the mine carts.

All that results in is people staying on one side or the other because nobody wants to deal with that long boring and annoying trip unless they have to.

Teras isn't much different either, and that's a shame because the area itself is awesome, but most people don't go there because they hate the seclusion.

I'd be happy if they just kept chronomage cost at 100k regardless of how much you use it.

[Methais]

Whirlin, you should probably take in account that compared to the majority of F2P games, GS is 'nerdy' (a greater level of understanding of formulas/etc to do well), and generally speaking, 'nerds' make significantly more money that they are willing to spend on a game that they gain utility from.

Supporting evidence would be the high $$$ value on in-game gear/characters for GS, that I would not expect to be there for F2P games.


The high price keeps out the riff-raff!

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/popular-mmorpg.jpg

[Neovik1]

Subs have stayed pretty even across the board over the last few years. They'll be up a bit around EG or other major announced events, and down a bit during the rest of the year, but about the same over all. A few big names leaving doesn't mean everyone is.

I'm familiar with the big names leaving on PC, but I have no clue what names they go under in the actual game.

I would be all for a discount pricing model of some sort. A premmy account is just too much cash to be dishing out for what you get. I'm pretty much done with my premmy account once I get the 900 points for the extra type ahead like assuming it goes with you when you go back to standard.

With pricing aside I'm quite happy with the current round of GMs and I think they have done an awesome job!

Since I'm in Icemule for the most part I have seen quite a few new players entering the game and every one for the most part has been extremely helpful to those new players.

I've probably seen 4 brand new players within the last few weeks.

Even helped a few learn how to pick and despite blowing up town center and all the deaths they are still at it which is pretty awesome. It's always nice to see new players start out.

I guess my only gripe is the pricing model. They can atleast throw us a bone and give a standard account 3 player slots.

Maybe even give it to us as a years of service thing... I'm just typing this stuff up as I think of stuff on my phone so it's probably scattered thoughts and garbage like my usual shit.

[Taernath]

I get what you're saying, but that doesn't change the fact that realism typically isn't fun in fantasy based games. This was demonstrated pretty hard during the "Growing Pains" era, where they went on a rampage with the nerf bat all over the game, unnecessarily nerfing all kinds of shit that didn't need to be nerfed and resulted in more tedium and less fun, all in the name of "because realism".

How would you feel about getting hard RT every time you change rooms, to simulate that you're actually walking down a path instead of instantly running several hundred feet at a time by moving through 5-10 rooms in a second? What's the difference between that and riding mine carts or some stupid ferry that randomly goes on lunch break, forcing you to stand there with your thumb up your ass while you wait even longer to get where you're going?

Well, there are some hunting areas that have RT like that but they are the exception, not the rule. You generally only see that stuff on trails between towns, like the ice on the way to Icemule or the swamps to Solhaven. I feel like they have a pretty good compromise in place right now - it takes 20 minutes to cross a continent instead of 20 hours or 20 seconds, you can ring past a few of those places (last I remember the carts were still a barrier) and there is a FWI thing in Zul Logoth.

[Taernath]

Subs have stayed pretty even across the board over the last few years.

I'm not aware of any released subscription numbers, but if they are stable it's probably because GS has reached a point where the only subs left have been here for 15 years and will continue to play regardless, while very few new players join for longer than their trial month.

[Menelous]

The cart times were lowered quite a bit a few years ago during a simucon. I want to say from 10 minutes each down to 3 minutes each but I can't be certain on that. In my mind, I'd like to see a basic account be $7.95 with a premium being $25.95. Will this happen? I think we can all agree the changes are pretty slim. One thing to consider though, if prices went that low, I'd probably pick up both a premium and basic account. I don't MA due to pricing. The added utility being able to sort my stuff for an extra eight bucks a month seems to be a good value alone. Granted, I understand some may agree having a pocket empath kills RP, but not anymore than useherbs does. I also consider the 100lbs reduction potion worth the price too and while my main will always have it, if I had a second account active I'd be more likely to buy another. Long story short, a lower price doesn't always mean less income from the customers they already have.

[sentral]

We can talk and talk about this but has Simu ever said anything regarding there long term plans? they have to make a decision eventually right?

[keatsr]

I haven't been in game for a while now and really have only been coming back around for a few months each year until the grind simply feels like it is taking too much time that I should really be working on my dissertation.

But for me I think that it would be great to see a Gemstone V. This is probably not very popular but I would love to have a greatly altered world to explore again. the sense of exploration is largely gone for me and with the rather intense price, the almost obvious need to MA, the intensity of the scripting going on, etc. I think it would be exciting to use the basic form of what is there but to change it, mix it up, and simply, make it new again.

Anyway, these are simply random thoughts. . . all in all this is a great thread to read. keep it up.

[keatsr]

oh but instead of "Revival" shouldn't it be a "Renaissance"?

[Aluvius]

I'd have been happy with Shattered as a fresh start if they had a minimal staff assigned to it and didn't allow the stupid shit/penis/ooc alterations and names.

[keatsr]

When I compare GS with other games I always feel that the world is much more there, the players are actually involved and the sense of fictive reality is simply much more deviloped. What GS does not seem to have is any kind of real adventure system. It is built on simply killing, then killing some more, then, well, killing some more. there are other things to do, but the basic machinery is around killing/and often killing exactly the same thing, in the same manner, ad nauseam.

The sense of a possible campaign, a la D&D, is only available in GM run events, and this is not in the machinery of the game. For instance there is very limited interaction with NPCs which, in a text world, seems strange. Where they could literally "talk" ofrever, there is almost no system there. If I were to return and want to pay 40-80 dollars per month to belong to the cult of GS, I would love that the world were more developed in terms of quests (and I definitely don't count AG as these are simply another form of repetition, which don't even change noticeably as one levels.

i apologize for the rant:)

[keatsr]

while on the subject here is something else i would like to see in the game:

instances.

DDO does a great job IMO on instances. They really help create the sense of engagement. also Simutronics could make a ton of money through them.

Even pay-to-play instances, like quest runs but more of them, available when you want to do them. individual or group instances. tailored to specific level ranges.

This would make 50 a month better.

[Latrinsorm]

Subs have stayed pretty even across the board over the last few years. They'll be up a bit around EG or other major announced events, and down a bit during the rest of the year, but about the same over all. A few big names leaving doesn't mean everyone is.I would be interested to see someone take a WHO every day at a specific time. Don't tell Anticor, but I don't play GS anymore and thus can't do it myself.

[Methais]

I'd have been happy with Shattered as a fresh start if they had a minimal staff assigned to it and didn't allow the stupid shit/penis/ooc alterations and names.

Pretty sure they stopped doing the OOC alterations.

Other than that, your fresh start would only last a few months and then everyone will be capped again and Shattered will be no different than it is now and would basically be a waste.

[Donquix]

Subs have stayed pretty even across the board over the last few years. They'll be up a bit around EG or other major announced events, and down a bit during the rest of the year, but about the same over all. A few big names leaving doesn't mean everyone is.

1) no they haven't, you're flat out delusional.

2) those "big names" accounted for 20+ accounts (that were mostly played concurrently). See point 1.

Again, it's mostly bottomed out. I'm not making the case that "zomg gs is gonna die next year", but it's (slowly) trending down.


I would be interested to see someone take a WHO every day at a specific time. Don't tell Anticor, but I don't play GS anymore and thus can't do it myself.

I was thinking about getting an account to script doing just this, for giggles and shits. Someone who actually has an account should.

[Aluvius]

Pretty sure they stopped doing the OOC alterations.

Other than that, your fresh start would only last a few months and then everyone will be capped again and Shattered will be no different than it is now and would basically be a waste.

I don't care about people being capped, I mean more from an item standpoint (since that's what attracts me to GS). It was fun for a few months starting out with no existing inventories on myself or anyone else. Then I realized how much the game sucks without GM merchanting/feeder/invasion drops. Actually, it alternated between nothing or a GM handing out 10x doomswords with a dildo alter. Good to hear that's stopped, but the original sin still fucked it up (sort of like prime in the early 90's). Of course I'm also one of the loons that thinks we need more ways to lose/destroy items so that the GM's could give us more powerful stuff. :)

As for subs, there's been around the same amount every time I've done a Who Full since I've been back (for 3 years or so). Its just anecdotal, but then again so is all of the information available to us unless Simutronics gives out actual sub numbers.

Personally I don't think going f2p would do anything but add in more MA's. The idea that this game will attract some influx of new players with a lower/no price just doesn't seem plausible to me. Although I'd love to be proven wrong. I don't really care either way though as long as I could still pay a sub for extra stuff the plebe's can't get. :)

[Methais]

Of course I'm also one of the loons that thinks we need more ways to lose/destroy items so that the GM's could give us more powerful stuff.

That doesn't make you a loon.

What makes you a loom is that you think they'd release more powerful items to balance out the other ones being lost.

For every 10x weapon of death lost, they'd probably put out a 4x flaring weapon to replace it and call it über.

[Thondalar]

1) no they haven't, you're flat out delusional.

2) those "big names" accounted for 20+ accounts (that were mostly played concurrently). See point 1.

Again, it's mostly bottomed out. I'm not making the case that "zomg gs is gonna die next year", but it's (slowly) trending down.

No you.


I was thinking about getting an account to script doing just this, for giggles and shits. Someone who actually has an account should.

I actually have an account. Two, in fact, with non-stop service since 2006. I check the numbers every day, and I log in for at least a few minutes at least 5 days a week. The average players during peak time (roughly 10pm EST) trended down between '06 and 09', and has been trending up since. Keep in mind we're talking about a swing of only 40-50 people either way, which is only about 10-15% of the total online...not enough to make any sort of demonstrative difference.

I do enjoy people who don't even play telling me how many people are playing, though. Keep up the good work.

[Taernath]

I would be interested to see someone take a WHO every day at a specific time. Don't tell Anticor, but I don't play GS anymore and thus can't do it myself.

Challenge accepted. I'll check a few times per day (probably 6 AM, noon and 6 PM PST) for the next month. Right now it's 215.

[Latrinsorm]

No you.



I actually have an account. Two, in fact, with non-stop service since 2006. I check the numbers every day, and I log in for at least a few minutes at least 5 days a week. The average players during peak time (roughly 10pm EST) trended down between '06 and 09', and has been trending up since. Keep in mind we're talking about a swing of only 40-50 people either way, which is only about 10-15% of the total online...not enough to make any sort of demonstrative difference.

I do enjoy people who don't even play telling me how many people are playing, though. Keep up the good work.Do you still have the raw data?
Challenge accepted. I'll check a few times per day (probably 6 AM, noon and 6 PM PST) for the next month. Right now it's 215.Good man.

[Donquix]

No you.



I actually have an account. Two, in fact, with non-stop service since 2006. I check the numbers every day, and I log in for at least a few minutes at least 5 days a week. The average players during peak time (roughly 10pm EST) trended down between '06 and 09', and has been trending up since. Keep in mind we're talking about a swing of only 40-50 people either way, which is only about 10-15% of the total online...not enough to make any sort of demonstrative difference.

I do enjoy people who don't even play telling me how many people are playing, though. Keep up the good work.

The existence of this thread disproves your point but hey....keep on believing whatever you want to believe. Don't let little things like reality get in the way.


Challenge accepted. I'll check a few times per day (probably 6 AM, noon and 6 PM PST) for the next month. Right now it's 215.

I was going to check this weekend about getting a trial account going and scripting it with lich for a month to check every minute for the full list of players (or did they disable who full? i seem to recall they did) and the just straight who w/ the total (since you can opt out of who full). With the raw data from that for a full month you could look at:
actual concurrent numbers graphed throughout the day
unique total character count for the month

both of which are fairly interesting metrics. add in the who by profession (again, skewed because not everyone shows that) for extra shits and giggles.

[Gelston]

Who full existed last I played.

[Taernath]

WHO FULL still works, you just have to confirm it. By all means do yours too. I think this will be an interesting experiment no matter who turns out to be right, because the last time I remember seeing ~500 people regularly in game (as I guess Thondalar is claiming) was the early 2000's. Of course, we can't accurately count individual accounts, but still.

[Thondalar]

The existence of this thread disproves your point but hey....keep on believing whatever you want to believe. Don't let little things like reality get in the way.

Er...my point is that the number of people on during prime hours has stayed within a 10-15% swing since I started keeping track in 2006...sometimes up, sometimes down, but overall pretty much even. That's the reality.

The existence of this thread proves nothing other than there are people who care about this game and want a larger player base...that, also, hasn't changed since 2006.

[Thondalar]

WHO FULL still works, you just have to confirm it. By all means do yours too. I think this will be an interesting experiment no matter who turns out to be right, because the last time I remember seeing ~500 people regularly in game (as I guess Thondalar is claiming) was the early 2000's. Of course, we can't accurately count individual accounts, but still.

During last EG there was almost 600 on during prime hours opening weekend. We had a conversation about it on lnet, corroborating witnesses won't be hard to find.

I did not, however, make any specific numeric claims...I just said the numbers during peak have been about even for the last 5 or 6 years...that being between 350 and 450 during peak.

[Neovik1]

During last EG there was almost 600 on during prime hours opening weekend. We had a conversation about it on lnet, corroborating witnesses won't be hard to find.

I did not, however, make any specific numeric claims...I just said the numbers during peak have been about even for the last 5 or 6 years...that being between 350 and 450 during peak.


I can validate what Thond is saying during EG. I have also seen those same numbers during the landing festival... Forgot the name.

I still believe that we would have more people if Simu adjusted their pricing.

And I don't believe in that charge for instances bullshit. That should be part of the subscription fee. They charge you for enough shit already.

[Neovik1]

Simu for the most part takes our money and dumps it into other development opportunities and then downgrades the gemstone server to save on cost... The money we pay should be funding instances and other cool things as part of our sub fee. Not let's pay more fucking money so we can do an instance that would fucking be free in any other fucking mmo. Why would you even say that??? Whoever said that on here...

Simu sold their heroes engine or whatever it was to Star Wars and now they'll use you as beta testers for the new flying dragons game so they can sell off that engine to another company..

[Ardwen]

They didnt sell it to star wars, star wars is one of dozens or even hundreds of licensees of Idea Fabrik, new owner of the hero engine

[Neovik1]

They didnt sell it to star wars, star wars is one of dozens or even hundreds of licensees of Idea Fabrik, new owner of the hero engine

So they indirectly sold it to Star Wars?

[Taernath]

I can validate what Thond is saying during EG. I have also seen those same numbers during the landing festival... Forgot the name.


I don't think that anyone is disputing that EG draws a lot of accounts back, just that the average amount of players for the last few years has been rising/staying around 400.

[Gizmo]

They sold it to fabrik, who owns the License and sells the rights to many buyers..one of which was bioware

[Donquix]

So they indirectly sold it to Star Wars?

They sold it to idea fabrik who fleshed it out and made it less bad, they then resell it to other companies. But Bioware actually did buy the license from simu, before it was sold to idea fabrik i'm pretty sure.

The new company actually offers a pretty interesting option where you can get access to the engine for next to nothing, but they receive 30% of sales generated from your use of it. You don't get source code access though.

Any major project using it has the full license with the source access and they HEAVILY modify it for their usage. Basically they're buying a starting point and suite of design tools (the latter was the biggest selling point).

I haven't heard favorable things from anyone who has used it about the performance out of the box. That's from SW:TOR people so, it could have been growing pains since it was pretty early on when they got it.

[Thondalar]

I don't think that anyone is disputing that EG draws a lot of accounts back, just that the average amount of players for the last few years has been rising/staying around 400.

Well, there's 352 on right now, and it's a Tuesday night with absolutely nothing going on anywhere.

[Tgo01]

it's a Tuesday night with absolutely nothing going on anywhere.

Sounds like an advertising line from Simu about GS.

[Neovik1]

I would think it wold be in simu's best interest topics standard accounts three slots. Another way for people to create another character to get attached to. Keeping them about longer.

[Donquix]

Got bored before bed and setup a trial account and had a mini-adventure getting lich+profanity running on a remote linux box. Which on a tangent, god damn people...give Tilmen money. Then had to remember how to ruby enough to at least get the info dumping. Polling for info every 5 minutes for now, I suspect that might be too often to be practical but meh.

~/lich/data/who_data# egrep -R -o 'Active Players: [0-9]+$' . | uniq
./1386137965:Active Players: 181
./1386138269:Active Players: 181
./1386138878:Active Players: 175
./1386139183:Active Players: 171
./1386137660:Active Players: 186
./1386138573:Active Players: 177

will try to actually do something with the data, time permitting, later in the week.

[HouseofElves]

Just adding a few thoughts to this discussion. Whately commented on a twitter from a former GS player who called out how bad of an idea the Kickstarter was:

"Be nice. HJ was hit in 2008 financial disaster. Lotta companies folded. We didn't."
"We made nothing in HJ but lost hundreds of thousands. I personally got a brutal financial beatdown."

Also, regarding long-term financial plans, this is from an old feedback back-and-forth I had with Solomon. A few months after the problems with those Droughtmans run, he reached out to people in game who had been longstanding players to get their feedback about what they could do to change. From the interactions I saw, they did nothing with the feedback. I reached out to him in an attempt to provide proactive feedback as someone who left because of the poor management and customer service and I got a lot of excuses back with no action plan.

Here is a quote from his email:

"When it comes to pricing, the simple answer is that our main priority is that of every business: to make money. If we had a billion dollars it would be a different matter entirely to just say, "Ok, cut the price in half!" or even "Get rid of it entirely!", but until we do, the only guaranteed result of that would be that our revenue is immediately cut in half (or reduced to zero). One can certainly say, "Well if the price was lower, more people would play." and they might be right. Then again, however, they might be wrong. The real problem is that, right or wrong, we'd be bringing in zero revenue if the games were free, which makes it tough to have an office and employees working on new projects and growing the company."

This was Aug 4th, so I assume he was implying about the funding for Dragons of Elanthia.

[Latrinsorm]

Like I said, they're just incapable of grasping a different pricing model.

[Donquix]

http://i.imgur.com/M5EEY0I.jpg

When he puts it like that though, technically they're right. Because they would have to actually market things to get it out there. At most, they'd send a blast email and hope we do the work for them (again)

[Tgo01]

The real problem is that, right or wrong, we'd be bringing in zero revenue if the games were free

How the hell did this guy get to be...whatever his title is in any sort of company? He thinks all of those F2P games make zero money? Like they created a game and invested a lot of money into the development of the game then they woke up one day and said "Aw fuck it, let's just make it free for everyone and not make a dime anymore."


which makes it tough to have an office and employees working on new projects and growing the company."

I like how he admits Simu is just using GS and DR as a cash cow to fund their other projects.

[Atlanteax]

How the hell did this guy get to be...whatever his title is in any sort of company? He thinks all of those F2P games make zero money? Like they created a game and invested a lot of money into the development of the game then they woke up one day and said "Aw fuck it, let's just make it free for everyone and not make a dime anymore."

I like how he admits Simu is just using GS and DR as a cash cow to fund their other projects.

Which unfortunately demonstrates their underwhelming appreciation for the two games.

All players are asking for is more support for the games, due to the broad feeling that subscriptions are performing below potential due to poor management.

[Taernath]

"If we had a billion dollars it would be a different matter entirely to just say, "Ok, cut the price in half!" or even "Get rid of it entirely!"

Maybe this is where the kickstarter comes in!

http://replygif.net/i/385.gif

[JustDan]

Maybe this is where the kickstarter comes in!

http://replygif.net/i/385.gif

It would be a fascinating experiment by Simu... start up kickstarters for things like the Lore Review, Savants, Playershops, some of the larger spell circle holes, and see how many of us poor suckers would be willing to pay over and above our monthly addiction to get something funded and released.

[Taernath]

If they legitimately needed it, and I could be sure it would be used for its intended purpose, I would get behind it.

[Donquix]

Info so far from the who lists:

duration: ~14 hours
unique names: 780
min: 95
max: 247 (obviously haven't hit primetime yet for the day)
mean: ~168

my most favorite fact:
number of players that have been on for EVERY polling cycle: 45

[Tgo01]

my most favorite fact:
number of players that have been on for EVERY polling cycle: 45

45 people are in the process of migrating skills.

[SpiffyJr]

It would be a fascinating experiment by Simu... start up kickstarters for things like the Lore Review, Savants, Playershops, some of the larger spell circle holes, and see how many of us poor suckers would be willing to pay over and above our monthly addiction to get something funded and released.

Depends on if Savants end up like Monks. I'd pay for them to turn monks into a semi like they should have done.

[Ceyrin]

Depends on if Savants end up like Monks. I'd pay for them to turn monks into a semi like they should have done.

+1

[rolfard]

Savants are pures? Major Mental Minor Mental and Savant Circle?

[Donquix]

Savants are pures? Major Mental Minor Mental and Savant Circle?

in theory. but monks were supposed to be semis so....yeah.

[Ceyrin]

Yeah, that was pretty close to the break point for me with Gemstone. The decision to make monks squares (that and not making empaths take minor mental instead of major spiritual). If Savants, should they ever happen, become Semi's, this game will truly be dead to me.

[SpiffyJr]

You can't take a square and say, hey, they're supposed to learn spells. That is what semi's have always been about.

[Thondalar]

It would be a fascinating experiment by Simu... start up kickstarters for things like the Lore Review, Savants, Playershops, some of the larger spell circle holes, and see how many of us poor suckers would be willing to pay over and above our monthly addiction to get something funded and released.

If I had a written, notarized contract signed by Obama's dog that stated in very clear terms that every penny I donated would go towards a player shop revamp, and that it would be completed in under 6 months or control of Gemstone would transfer to me, I'd pay for it.

[masterdtwin]

Soooo...

Did anyone else notice this thread simply disappear? or was it just me?

[Warriorbird]

Simu dropped their free to play campaign, obviously.

[Methais]

Soooo...

Did anyone else notice this thread simply disappear? or was it just me?

No, it's still here. See?

[Thondalar]

Soooo...

Did anyone else notice this thread simply disappear? or was it just me?

People started tracking population and realized I was right, so they stopped responding.

[Gelston]

No, they made a different thread for that.

[Methais]

They made a different thread to stop responding in?

[Latrinsorm]

People started tracking population and realized I was right, so they stopped responding.If you think an 8 day sample proves your point, I guess that's your prerogative, but it makes me even more suspicious of your original claims.

[Narthsin]

The sky is falling the sky is falling!!

[Donquix]

People started tracking population and realized I was right, so they stopped responding.

A few points:
1) i made an entirely separate post for the demographics so if by "stopped responding" you meant "posted a bunch of meaningful data in a more visible place because it is potentially interesting even for people who don't give a shit about this thread" then yes, you are correct.

2) you're not even correct. the maximum and average concurrent player counts have both trended down for the entire time i've collected data (even did you a favor and skipped 12-04, i didn't get a full day so it's unusually low because i missed primetime)
max:
367 -> 342
avg:
205 -> 192

at this rate gemstone will be officially dead in 110 days zomg oneone!!!11oneelventyone!

obviously the sample size is too small to mean shit now, which you might recognize that fact if not for...

3) you are certifiably fucking insane.


in related news:
we're down to 3 characters (other than my bot) who have been on for every single polling cycle i've done! (this is my favorite stat.) Looking at the professions, I wonder if they're at the same table somewhere :D

+--------+----------+
| prof | count(*) |
+--------+----------+
| Empath | 2433 |
| Wizard | 2433 |
| Rogue | 2433 |
+--------+----------+

[Thondalar]

A few points:
1) i made an entirely separate post for the demographics so if by "stopped responding" you meant "posted a bunch of meaningful data in a more visible place because it is potentially interesting even for people who don't give a shit about this thread" then yes, you are correct.

I obviously missed that. A post here to let those interested know would have helped.


2) you're not even correct. the maximum and average concurrent player counts have both trended down for the entire time i've collected data (even did you a favor and skipped 12-04, i didn't get a full day so it's unusually low because i missed primetime)
max:
367 -> 342
avg:
205 -> 192

There have been at least two nights in the last week where the max online was over 400. I'm disputing your numbers.


obviously the sample size is too small to mean shit now, which you might recognize that fact if not for...

Not only is it too small, but the way you present it is purposely misleading. I doubt seriously that the max on the very first day was 367, and the max on the very last day was 342, and the daily max has diminished at a steady rate between the two...even if we ignore the aforementioned fact that these aren't actually the max.


3) you are certifiably fucking insane.

This is actually true. But I manage.

[Grey]

Hm. You mean my GS boycott protest will go unnoticed because Simu is run by fuckheads? Maybe I should fire up the account?